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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
 
Location: TN | First of all... Merry Christmas BBs!
And now to my question... I have a colt that lately will root his nose down and out against the bit when riding, even if I'm one handed with my hands low and barely touching him. When we first started him he would throw his head up when the snaffle poked him in the top of the mouth when I picked up on the reins so I switched him to a dog bone snaffle and got his teeth floated. That fixed that problem, but he's started trying to root out against it.
He's pretty light about bending and giving to the bit normally, but we'll be going along in a circle and then he'll just push down and against it every few strides. I keep my hands still and don't pull against him (but don't give to his pulling either) and just keep going. Is there anything else I should be doing? |
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 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Bit them up move them around a round pen |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | mollibtexan - 2014-12-13 9:49 AM Bit them up move them around a round pen
Ok thanks! When you say "bit them up" what do you mean exactly? Just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing  |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| Could be a few things
Teeth could be bothering him again so I would get this checked out if it has been 6 months or greater.
Tmj could be causing issues, I would have chiro out to ensure no issues
Horse has lost respect for bit and is not pushing on the snaffle, time to change mouth pieces to a more severe ex smooth to a twist. Or change bits to one he has respect for such as a shanked bit. Once he is responsive again go back to the original. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1631
Location: Somewhere around here | When bitting them up you put a snaffle (or maybe in you spot a snaffle with a dog bone) and long split reins on you colt, tie one side to your cinch so their head is bending to the inside and then tie the other side to the opposite side of your cinch (but you need to tie it loose enough so when your colt gives into the pressure) and he will have enough outside rein to do it. By bitting them up this way they learn by their own pressure that it is easier to just give to the pressure than push against it. It may take some time depending on how stubborn your colt is but stay by the round pen in case they start to panic. Once they are happy and going good on one side (which may take 5 to 25 minutes) you turn their head to the opposite side and do it again. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| German martingale works wonders. I believe I got my last one from L and W bits. You need the martingale and also the reins to use it. I run my horse in the German Martingale.
You can bit them up all you want to but they know when they are pulling against something solid or against your hands. |
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| I don't disagree with bitting him up. I'd make sure his teeth are good too, though. Their teeth can get bad where it sort of "locks" their jaw and they will root down to release it. At least that is how it was explained to me one time.
Edited by bennie1 2014-12-13 11:14 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 1420
Location: utah ,close to las vegas my real home | horses love to pull against something so sounds like you never give him any release when he does put his head in the right place. Keep I mind horses learn from the release of pressure. The next step is to keep a light hold of them foe a few strides. But you must bump them with your legs to keep them driving from behind and moving forward that will keep them light in the face. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | bennie1 - 2014-12-13 11:13 AM I don't disagree with bitting him up. I'd make sure his teeth are good too, though. Their teeth can get bad where it sort of "locks" their jaw and they will root down to release it. At least that is how it was explained to me one time.
I disagree with "bitting a horse up" and/or tying their head around.
In my experiences, horses that root down are having hindquarter problems. Could be something as simple as they are just weak in their hindquarters. They could be sore or have a problem somewhere in hocks, stifles, hips, etc.
Make sure you are riding the hind end first making them collect and use their hindend coming forward into your hands. |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Here is a picture of my horse using a German martingale. I can assure you that he does not have any soreness issues. I think you will find that this will be one of the best pieces of equipment that you own. This horse is not young. (11) I use the German martingale on most of my horses when riding at the house but I run this paint horse in it.
 (HARLEY POLES WORLD SHOW small image.jpg)
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 HARLEY POLES WORLD SHOW small image.jpg (98KB - 211 downloads)
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Location: South Dakota | hotpaints - 2014-12-13 12:26 PM bennie1 - 2014-12-13 11:13 AM I don't disagree with bitting him up. I'd make sure his teeth are good too, though. Their teeth can get bad where it sort of "locks" their jaw and they will root down to release it. At least that is how it was explained to me one time. I disagree with "bitting a horse up" and/or tying their head around.
In my experiences, horses that root down are having hindquarter problems. Could be something as simple as they are just weak in their hindquarters. They could be sore or have a problem somewhere in hocks, stifles, hips, etc.
Make sure you are riding the hind end first making them collect and use their hindend coming forward into your hands.
^^^^
This.....I think it is cruel to tie a horse around, check him back, if he is sore...get that checked out firstly.
I think you can get a horse giving to the bit using your hands...in your ground work, and doing slow work in the saddle...using forward motion....not standing flat footed.... I think your hands are more forgiving...or should be, and you get a better feel for your horse...It takes time and a lot of piddling with them.
Not a fan of German Martingales...I know some folks love them, and that is fine...they just don't work for me. |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Done correctly, bitting one up or tieing one around is not cruel. Note DONE CORRECTLY |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| bennie1 - 2014-12-13 6:11 PM
Done correctly, bitting one up or tieing one around is not cruel. Note DONE CORRECTLY
I don't think that bittting one up is cruel and have done it a lot (with one horse) I never saw any results after the first day of riding. To me, bitting one up every day before you ride is kind of pointless. Also, when I used to bit one up (which was about 35 years ago) horses were not as broke as we like them now. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | Sore in the hindend. |
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 Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, and always be consistent......start on the ground with a halter and teach him to give to pressure by pulling his head to his side and INSTANTLY releasing the second you feel him try. The release his his reward...when he gives, you make it easy for him by releasing the pressure...keep the pressure on until he gives...the pressure makes it hard and he'll start to look for a release and he'll learn it's when he gives.....do it on both sides and progress to the bit, then in the saddle. If it doesn't make sense, buy Clinton Anderson's DVD on starting in the round pen......take your time...martingales and tying them around are shortcuts.....take the time to it right the first time or take 5 times as much time to do it over.... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | streakysox - 2014-12-13 10:39 AM German martingale works wonders. I believe I got my last one from L and W bits. You need the martingale and also the reins to use it. I run my horse in the German Martingale. You can bit them up all you want to but they know when they are pulling against something solid or against your hands.
I have a german martingale I've used on my other horse with good success. Thanks for the suggestion! I may try that with this one. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | Cindy Hamilton - 2014-12-13 7:13 PM Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, and always be consistent......start on the ground with a halter and teach him to give to pressure by pulling his head to his side and INSTANTLY releasing the second you feel him try. The release his his reward...when he gives, you make it easy for him by releasing the pressure...keep the pressure on until he gives...the pressure makes it hard and he'll start to look for a release and he'll learn it's when he gives.....do it on both sides and progress to the bit, then in the saddle. If it doesn't make sense, buy Clinton Anderson's DVD on starting in the round pen......take your time...martingales and tying them around are shortcuts.....take the time to it right the first time or take 5 times as much time to do it over....
This is kinda what I was thinking too - make it easy when he does it right and hard when he doesn't. Thanks! |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| A friend of mine and I recently pulled this one out of our former lives as English riders for my boy.
http://www.doversaddlery.com/balance-complete-training-system/p/X1-...
In a German Martingale he is light as a feather and fantastic. As soon as you take it off he's rooting again, it hasn't taught him anything about accepting the bit and giving his nose - not that other horses won't get it, but my boy is sometimes on the slow side.
Lunging in this with a simple Myler comfort snaffle has a made a huge difference. He is allowed to figure out how to hold the bit comfortably and move forward softly with the consistency of the rig. It has transferred beautifully to riding under saddle and we have made huge progress in a short amount of time.
It'll be in my tack box from now on as a training tool. |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| streakysox - 2014-12-13 6:42 PM
bennie1 - 2014-12-13 6:11 PM
Done correctly, bitting one up or tieing one around is not cruel. Note DONE CORRECTLY
I don't think that bittting one up is cruel and have done it a lot (with one horse ) I never saw any results after the first day of riding. To me, bitting one up every day before you ride is kind of pointless. Also, when I used to bit one up (which was about 35 years ago ) horses were not as broke as we like them now.
That's part of the done correctly. Only do what the particular horse needs. I haven't had a horse that needed it every day. I don't do it on every horse. My only point is, it's not cruel when used correctly |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | bennie1 - 2014-12-13 6:11 PM Done correctly, bitting one up or tieing one around is not cruel. Note DONE CORRECTLY
Not many do it correctly. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1482
Location: on my horse | Three 4 Luck - 2014-12-14 12:49 PM
bennie1 - 2014-12-13 6:11 PM Done correctly, bitting one up or tieing one around is not cruel. Note DONE CORRECTLY
Not many do it correctly.
agreed. It is one of the best tools you can have in your bag... IF you've been taught correctly and preferably by a professional. |
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 Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | Lower six ( first premolar) ramps can cause rooting or pushing on your hands.
The reason is simple, when they get ramps, it does not allow the lower jaw to slide back as it is designed to during collections or stopping. Thus causing the horse to push his head down for comfort.
When you say colt? How old?
Your two and a half to three year olds may have caps that are retained as well, or, the lower six permanent tooth may have came in ahead of the upper six ( which is generally the case) and as stated before, caused ramping.
Before you start bitting, tying heads, ect, have a good equine dental provider look at him or a good vet.
Edited by Canchasr1 2014-12-15 9:50 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | I'm calling him a colt because he knows about as much as a 2 year old lol. He is actually 6 years old - we got him earlier this year - before that he was barely halter broken and only handled 2-3 times a year for feet trimming. He was in kind of a hoarder sitation. He's come a LONG way since then and is a sweetheart. I had his teeth done in early November by an equine dentist but I plan to take him to my vet in March and I'll have them checked again then.
I noticed yesterday that the left side of his jaw has an odd bump/calcification - maybe an old injury (feels like a bone chip that healed?). Maybe that explains why he still drops his feed some and roots down on the bit.
Another update! Last night when I rode him and I trotted him on a loose rein with no contact on the bit he rooted down a lot (3/4 of the way around the arena perimeter), but when I picked up the reins with both hands and rode with light contact (for the last 1/4 of the perimeter) he didn't root at all. I just tried it out of frustration and it worked! Now the question is why does he push against it when the reins are loose but respects it when I have light contact??? He doesn't root down at all when walking or loping, just trotting on a loose rein.
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| KatieMac88 - 2014-12-15 11:41 AM
I'm calling him a colt because he knows about as much as a 2 year old lol. He is actually 6 years old - we got him earlier this year - before that he was barely halter broken and only handled 2-3 times a year for feet trimming. He was in kind of a hoarder sitation. He's come a LONG way since then and is a sweetheart. I had his teeth done in early November by an equine dentist but I plan to take him to my vet in March and I'll have them checked again then.
I noticed yesterday that the left side of his jaw has an odd bump/calcification - maybe an old injury (feels like a bone chip that healed?). Maybe that explains why he still drops his feed some and roots down on the bit. Another update! Last night when I rode him and I trotted him on a loose rein with no contact on the bit he rooted down a lot (3/4 of the way around the arena perimeter), but when I picked up the reins with both hands and rode with light contact (for the last 1/4 of the perimeter) he didn't root at all. I just tried it out of frustration and it worked! Now the question is why does he push against it when the reins are loose but respects it when I have light contact??? He doesn't root down at all when walking or loping, just trotting on a loose rein.
I think he's ahead of the game. By this post I would assume that he has accepted the bit and is searching for contact. I like my horses searching for contact, not resisting but wanting to feel light contact. Remember collection comes from behind. Once a horse has accepted and searches for contact you've won half the battle of getting one to properly round out its back and collect. Now if he pulls on you when you have contact with his mouth then you need to go back to basics until he accepts and respects the bit. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| FlyingJT - 2014-12-15 12:06 PM KatieMac88 - 2014-12-15 11:41 AM I'm calling him a colt because he knows about as much as a 2 year old lol. He is actually 6 years old - we got him earlier this year - before that he was barely halter broken and only handled 2-3 times a year for feet trimming. He was in kind of a hoarder sitation. He's come a LONG way since then and is a sweetheart. I had his teeth done in early November by an equine dentist but I plan to take him to my vet in March and I'll have them checked again then.
I noticed yesterday that the left side of his jaw has an odd bump/calcification - maybe an old injury (feels like a bone chip that healed?). Maybe that explains why he still drops his feed some and roots down on the bit.
Another update! Last night when I rode him and I trotted him on a loose rein with no contact on the bit he rooted down a lot (3/4 of the way around the arena perimeter), but when I picked up the reins with both hands and rode with light contact (for the last 1/4 of the perimeter) he didn't root at all. I just tried it out of frustration and it worked! Now the question is why does he push against it when the reins are loose but respects it when I have light contact??? He doesn't root down at all when walking or loping, just trotting on a loose rein.
I think he's ahead of the game. By this post I would assume that he has accepted the bit and is searching for contact. I like my horses searching for contact, not resisting but wanting to feel light contact. Remember collection comes from behind. Once a horse has accepted and searches for contact you've won half the battle of getting one to properly round out its back and collect. Now if he pulls on you when you have contact with his mouth then you need to go back to basics until he accepts and respects the bit.
^^ YUP! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1035
Location: TN | lindseylou2290 - 2014-12-15 12:08 PM FlyingJT - 2014-12-15 12:06 PM KatieMac88 - 2014-12-15 11:41 AM I'm calling him a colt because he knows about as much as a 2 year old lol. He is actually 6 years old - we got him earlier this year - before that he was barely halter broken and only handled 2-3 times a year for feet trimming. He was in kind of a hoarder sitation. He's come a LONG way since then and is a sweetheart. I had his teeth done in early November by an equine dentist but I plan to take him to my vet in March and I'll have them checked again then.
I noticed yesterday that the left side of his jaw has an odd bump/calcification - maybe an old injury (feels like a bone chip that healed?). Maybe that explains why he still drops his feed some and roots down on the bit.
Another update! Last night when I rode him and I trotted him on a loose rein with no contact on the bit he rooted down a lot (3/4 of the way around the arena perimeter), but when I picked up the reins with both hands and rode with light contact (for the last 1/4 of the perimeter) he didn't root at all. I just tried it out of frustration and it worked! Now the question is why does he push against it when the reins are loose but respects it when I have light contact??? He doesn't root down at all when walking or loping, just trotting on a loose rein.
I think he's ahead of the game. By this post I would assume that he has accepted the bit and is searching for contact. I like my horses searching for contact, not resisting but wanting to feel light contact. Remember collection comes from behind. Once a horse has accepted and searches for contact you've won half the battle of getting one to properly round out its back and collect. Now if he pulls on you when you have contact with his mouth then you need to go back to basics until he accepts and respects the bit.
Wooohoooo! This makes my day! Thank you! That explains a lot. My finished horse has always struggled with collection so I'm not used to one searching for that contact. I like it! |
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