|
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
  
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Before I start, he has had his teeth done in the last 6 months by a equine dentist. He has also been check by a chiropractor.
I've got a 4yr old that likes nothing I've put on him except a curved bar Mullen mouth with a short shank but he's hard to stop at a speed faster than a slow trot and he's hard to turn. BUT everything else I've put on him he gaps his mouth open and sticks his nose out. I watch a video on bits that Charon Caldwell has on YouTube and she was taking about every kind of bit. I've never put a correction bit on him because I thought they were sever but according to her there not. According to what she says it sound like he might would benefit from a correction bit. I know there's really no way to know without trying it but I don't want to put it on him and him completely spaz out like he did the first time I pulled on him with my Ed Wright gag bit. |
|
| |
|
 Veteran
Posts: 222
Location: Texas | Not trying to be snarky or mean!!! Hard to stop, hard to turn, sticks his nose out and gaps his mouth and 4 yr old. That to ME ( I mostly start colts for people not put them on the pattern) sounds like he just isn't very broke. is he on the pattern? I would personally go back to what you started him in. Like an O snaffle with a twist. Work on basics again. A lot of times I see people ( not saying you are just my experience) get young horses on a pattern before they are broke enough. Then start having issues and bump bits up until they have a train wreak. Our colts ( I don't have a time line like futurity so I go slower) are broke and ridden on trails checking fence, working cows, hauled and rode around for 6 months to a year before they see the pattern. When they do get on the pattern they will collect WTC basic concept of fly changes bend counter arc etc so the pattern comes easier. Then it's not just the pattern we do basics away from the pattern so they stay fresh. If he's fussy in what he was started in. I have in the past used cavasons German and running martingales side reins draw reins etc. to help a young horse that may have a difficult patch. All of those tools have a place in training but SHOULD NOT be used as a band aid. I went through this with a client a year ago. She was wondering why her pattern was so far behind but refused to do the schooling. Just wanted to run. Then bump bits or use training aids to band aid the problem instead if taking the time to do it correctly. Anyway that's just my two cents again of I'm far off base I apologize. JMO |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | No he's not on the pattern. I tried but it didn't work. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | I don't like a correction on a horse with soft bars. You have to have better hands than me to use one without risk of damage on a young horse. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 222
Location: Texas | Tried what and it didn't work? The pattern? Snaffle bit? And if it was a differnt bit how long? Personally to me a correction bit is to correct an issue on a finished horse. Not for use with a young horse |
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
| The Connie Combs Stabilizer Bit is perfect for young horses, it helps them stay focused without being distracted by playing with their bits which helps them listen better. This sounds like it would work for you! http://www.smithbrothers.com/the-connie-combs-stabilizer-7%22-bit--...
Here is what the website says: The Connie Combs Stabilizer 7" Bit is good for hard ground, if you need more control or to keep the pull out of your horse. Practice with this bit until you feel any stiffness or pull then use the draw bit to soften the horse in the poll. Horse's that are not hard to set or control will get a lot of control out of this bit. Shanks: 7" stainless steel Mouth: 5" straight bar “sweet iron" mouthpiece
X37A00U3403&gclid=CNqFpN3IhcMCFapDMgodqxcAoA
 |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Married2Rodeo - 2015-01-08 5:39 PM
Tried what and it didn't work? The pattern? Snaffle bit? And if it was a differnt bit how long? Personally to me a correction bit is to correct an issue on a finished horse. Not for use with a young horse
The pattern. He hasn't always been like this. It started sorta sudden so that's when I had his teeth done. I went back to a plain O ring twisted wire but he fights it and gaps his mouth open. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 222
Location: Texas | Ok I would keep him in the O ring put a cavason on and ride in a German or running martingale whichever you are more comfortable with. Just back track and get the basics back. I would give him a solid week of riding with that bit and see if it helps. Doing circles bends counter arcs leg yields etc. lots of trotting working on all of this. Get your collection lateral and vertical flexion back. I bet he's just having a baby moment and needs a refresher. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| TessBelle - 2015-01-08 9:23 PM
Married2Rodeo - 2015-01-08 5:39 PM
Tried what and it didn't work? The pattern? Snaffle bit? And if it was a differnt bit how long? Personally to me a correction bit is to correct an issue on a finished horse. Not for use with a young horse
The pattern. He hasn't always been like this. It started sorta sudden so that's when I had his teeth done. I went back to a plain O ring twisted wire but he fights it and gaps his mouth open.
If this started when he got his teeth done. I would suspect teeth are an issue.
I would take the horse to a different dentist, as it is a possibility the previous one screwed up and the horse is telling you.
I would also have massage/chiro/acupuncture work on the tank to ensure this is not the problem.
Then I would go back to the basics and work with the horse to accept the bit. |
|
| |
|
 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | This horse needs to learn to give to the bit, try bitting him up in a O ring, he doesn't understand what you want. This will help teach him. If you don't know how, Google has some nice videos, good luck. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Sorry I should have clarified that more. What I ment by what I say was when he started acting like this I thought it was his teeth so I had them done because I had just bought him they had never been done before but doing his teeth didn't fix it. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| TessBelle - 2015-01-08 11:09 PM
Sorry I should have clarified that more. What I ment by what I say was when he started acting like this I thought it was his teeth so I had them done because I had just bought him they had never been done before but doing his teeth didn't fix it.
I would still check out tmj
If the tmj is okay
Then it is a training issue, as others have said, I would go back to the basics with an oring snaffle.
I would look at myler snaffle as I notice my colts are more accepting of their mouthpieces. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-08 11:16 PM
TessBelle - 2015-01-08 11:09 PM
Sorry I should have clarified that more. What I ment by what I say was when he started acting like this I thought it was his teeth so I had them done because I had just bought him they had never been done before but doing his teeth didn't fix it.
I would still check out tmj
If the tmj is okay
Then it is a training issue, as others have said, I would go back to the basics with an oring snaffle.
I would look at myler snaffle as I notice my colts are more accepting of their mouthpieces.
Is TMJ what the chiro is checking for when there checking just to the side of each eye towards the jaw bone? |
|
| |
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 417
Location: CA | Sooo many misconceptions about the correction mouthpiece. People think it's a harsh bit simply because of the word "correction". It's not. The name only refers to the action of the mouthpiece. It's actually a quite mild bit that's very forgiving, thus why most horses like it. It's commonly used as a step up bit from a snaffle for young horses ready to move on in their training. It promotes more vertical flexion than lateral flexion, so whether or not it's right for you and your horse really depends on what you're looking to get from your horse. Horse and Rider has published some very good articles by Bob Avila about this bit and others, and how they work. Definitely worth the read. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Grunt - 2015-01-09 12:43 AM
Sooo many misconceptions about the correction mouthpiece. People think it's a harsh bit simply because of the word "correction". It's not. The name only refers to the action of the mouthpiece. It's actually a quite mild bit that's very forgiving, thus why most horses like it. It's commonly used as a step up bit from a snaffle for young horses ready to move on in their training. It promotes more vertical flexion than lateral flexion, so whether or not it's right for you and your horse really depends on what you're looking to get from your horse. Horse and Rider has published some very good articles by Bob Avila about this bit and others, and how they work. Definitely worth the read.
Where can I find these articles online? I know almost nothing about bits. I've always rode them in what ever a trainer or the previous owner told me to ride in. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 417
Location: CA | I'd try Horse and Rider online, but I'll try to look them up tomorrow and link them on here. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | He's going back to a trainer in March because they didn't have any openings until then. I can't let him sit in the pasture that long so I need something to ride him in until then. Here's my opinion on what I think happened. I sent him to be broke because he wasn't broke when I got him and have a cutting horse handle put on him. When I got him back he was so touchy and sensitive that I could barely ride him but he rode great for the trainer. He was being rode in a O ring with a skinny twisted wire snaffle. Well the guy that rode him said he though when I got him back I should move to something else. He didn't say what else so I rode him in the O ring a few weeks and moved him to a Jr Cow horse smooth snaffle. He hated it and pitched a fit. So I went back to the original O ring for a few weeks. Then I tried the O ring I run my gelding in. It's a O,ring with Cs on the inside so that your reins don't slide all the way around with a twisted wire but has a life saver. He ignored that. So that's when I tried my Mullen mouth that my mare rides in. He seemed to love it. He worked great in it for about a month then he started to ignore it. So that's when I tried my Ed Wright gag bit. He spazed out. Now no matter what I use he's not happy except for the Mullen but can't do anything with him in a Mullen. Even fights his original O ring. So I though maybe he just hated a bit so I tried a light hack. Nope.
So somewhere I messed up and messed him up. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| It sounds like you may be too heavy handed.
If he was too sensitive back from the cutter, and now he isn't responding, the common denominator is you.
If you are always hanging on their face they look to escape gaping the mouth evading the bit head high or head low. If this doesn't work their mouth becomes desentized and people have to continue to bit up until the horse can handle every severe bit man has made, then there is nothing to do.
I suggest waiting till he goes to the trainer and while he is there take weekly lessons there to lighten up your hands and ride with your body before the reins. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | I've really started to become more conscious about my hands and to use my feet more but I'm 22 and been riding since I was big enough to be held in a saddle and until the last 2-3 years I never had any profession training. I grew up with cutting/penning horses but after about 8yrs old we had roping horses. About 13 or 14 I decided roping was defiantly not my thing so decided to try barrel racing. So it's hard for me to break habits that I've had for 15+ years but I'm trying. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 294
| Does your saddle fit? It sounds like he is hollowing out his back. If he is not in pain anywhere I would use the German Martingale to start with. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Heart of Texas | Sounds like your horse doesn't need training. It sounds like YA'LL need training. I would hire someone to help you while you ride him. A professional can tell if it's you, or him, or teach you how to ride HIM better. All horses are different and require different rididng styles. Your trainer may ride completely different than you. So either you change or you get a horse that fits you better. And find a trainer that does ride like you so you can ride the horses when they come back. |
|
| |
|
 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | Can you get lessons with the first trainer? Sometimes they will offer a session or two included in the cost of training.
My personal opinion, a tiny twist snaffle is a tool, but not a good one to keep him in. Your intuition to put him into another snaffle seems like a logical choice. But, moving into the jr. cowhorse, etc. may have been the first time he was ridden with a curb/shanked bit, right? So, could that be some of your issue?
My advice, like others, would be stick him back in the snaffle (maybe a larger twist, but not tiny!) and work on both of you. You can work on getting yourself soft while teaching him to respond better and lighter. Do not stop him by pulling back, but by teaching him that stopping is a reward (move his feet, stop to rest, if he doesn't stop nice, move his feet again, etc...)
I love a correction bit, but imo, it sounds like a disaster on your horse. If he has no idea about poll and curb pressure, it's a pretty big jump to stick a correction port on him.
Edited by just4fun 2015-01-09 10:02 AM
|
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 1857
| just4fun - 2015-01-09 9:55 AM
Can you get lessons with the first trainer? Sometimes they will offer a session or two included in the cost of training.
My personal opinion, a tiny twist snaffle is a tool, but not a good one to keep him in. Your intuition to put him into another snaffle seems like a logical choice. But, moving into the jr. cowhorse, etc. may have been the first time he was ridden with a curb/shanked bit, right? So, could that be some of your issue?
My advice, like others, would be stick him back in the snaffle (maybe a larger twist, but not tiny!) and work on both of you. You can work on getting yourself soft while teaching him to respond better and lighter. Do not stop him by pulling back, but by teaching him that stopping is a reward (move his feet, stop to rest, if he doesn't stop nice, move his feet again, etc...)
I love a correction bit, but imo, it sounds like a disaster on your horse. If he has no idea about poll and curb pressure, it's a pretty big jump to stick a correction port on him.
Good advice! This^^^^ |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | just4fun - 2015-01-09 9:55 AM
Can you get lessons with the first trainer? Sometimes they will offer a session or two included in the cost of training.
My personal opinion, a tiny twist snaffle is a tool, but not a good one to keep him in. Your intuition to put him into another snaffle seems like a logical choice. But, moving into the jr. cowhorse, etc. may have been the first time he was ridden with a curb/shanked bit, right? So, could that be some of your issue?
My advice, like others, would be stick him back in the snaffle (maybe a larger twist, but not tiny!) and work on both of you. You can work on getting yourself soft while teaching him to respond better and lighter. Do not stop him by pulling back, but by teaching him that stopping is a reward (move his feet, stop to rest, if he doesn't stop nice, move his feet again, etc...)
I love a correction bit, but imo, it sounds like a disaster on your horse. If he has no idea about poll and curb pressure, it's a pretty big jump to stick a correction port on him.
Yes I can get lesions with both trainers. And I did go a couple times and ride with him on one of his horses before I rode mine but I would like to have done more. The one he's going to will let me come as much as I want but she's too far to go to weekly but maybe could got like every other week. |
|
| |
|
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| TessBelle - 2015-01-09 2:16 AM
I've really started to become more conscious about my hands and to use my feet more but I'm 22 and been riding since I was big enough to be held in a saddle and until the last 2-3 years I never had any profession training. I grew up with cutting/penning horses but after about 8yrs old we had roping horses. About 13 or 14 I decided roping was defiantly not my thing so decided to try barrel racing. So it's hard for me to break habits that I've had for 15+ years but I'm trying.
I really don't like you using your age as an excuse "but I'm 22".
It doesn't matter what your riding background is, what matters is what you are going to do from this point forward.
You said you are becoming more aware of your hands, this is a start.
Find someone in your area you can take lessons from, ask around, see if there are any people competing in ranch horse competition, see if you can go work at a working cow horse barn, see if you can apprentice under a well respected horse trainer.
Right now I don't think it will be beneficial to continue to ride your horse without someone helping on a daily basis as it will take the trainer an entire month to undo what has been done. It is actually easier for trainers to start from scratch then it is a horse who has been mishandled. (Not saying abuse, just not ridden properly)
If you could take a horsemanship clinic this may also help you, look at a weekend course/clinic
|
|
| |
|
 Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | Several things I want to say on this..
First you have gotten some very sound advice from other posters about learning how to ride your horse the way HE was trained, dont expect the horse to ride the way you do. He is a baby that has been started by someone else, learn that persons cues, style, ect.
I see more train wrecks because people send horses to us and say, " I want a HANDLE put on my horse" Ok, we start them right, soft and working off our seat and legs and the owner takes them home and the horses head is in the air running off when they ride them a month because they are way too heavy handed and do not know how to ride correctly. the horse is confused and scared because they have NEVER been ridden that way. So, that being said, go back and take lessons with your horse.
Second, at four, just because his teeth were done three months ago, does not mean he may not have an issue. They are shedding and growing teeth until they are five. also, all equine dentist are not equal!! Not even close. Get a second opinion. I cannot tell you how many horse owners come to me and say "I just had my horses teeth floated last month and he is still giving me fits" 99% of the time, it was not done correctly or completely. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1611
| Canchasr1 - 2015-01-09 1:59 PM Several things I want to say on this..
First you have gotten some very sound advice from other posters about learning how to ride your horse the way HE was trained, dont expect the horse to ride the way you do. He is a baby that has been started by someone else, learn that persons cues, style, ect.
I see more train wrecks because people send horses to us and say, " I want a HANDLE put on my horse" Ok, we start them right, soft and working off our seat and legs and the owner takes them home and the horses head is in the air running off when they ride them a month because they are way too heavy handed and do not know how to ride correctly. the horse is confused and scared because they have NEVER been ridden that way. So, that being said, go back and take lessons with your horse.
Second, at four, just because his teeth were done three months ago, does not mean he may not have an issue. They are shedding and growing teeth until they are five. also, all equine dentist are not equal!! Not even close. Get a second opinion. I cannot tell you how many horse owners come to me and say "I just had my horses teeth floated last month and he is still giving me fits" 99% of the time, it was not done correctly or completely.
EXACTLY!!!
The most frustrating thing about selling a horse, letting someone try one, or sending one home once we've had it for awhile is that the poor horse is so confused by all the yanking and pulling.
When I first started with my mentor he had me hop on a filly that I thought was literally gonna run off with me. The more I loosened up the more she loosened up eventually my hands got lighter and she got lighter. I never knew I was so heavy handed until that day and I had rode my whole life (24yrs old). This man has given troy, marne, cody, and many others lessons. I wish I had enough pay to pay him to ride around with me like some others do! Until you learn what it means to have light hands you can not clearly communicate crap to your horse. 90% of people can NOT ride a broke horse.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-01-09 1:40 PM
|
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | Canchasr1 - 2015-01-09 12:59 PM Several things I want to say on this..
First you have gotten some very sound advice from other posters about learning how to ride your horse the way HE was trained, dont expect the horse to ride the way you do. He is a baby that has been started by someone else, learn that persons cues, style, ect.
I see more train wrecks because people send horses to us and say, " I want a HANDLE put on my horse" Ok, we start them right, soft and working off our seat and legs and the owner takes them home and the horses head is in the air running off when they ride them a month because they are way too heavy handed and do not know how to ride correctly. the horse is confused and scared because they have NEVER been ridden that way. So, that being said, go back and take lessons with your horse.
Second, at four, just because his teeth were done three months ago, does not mean he may not have an issue. They are shedding and growing teeth until they are five. also, all equine dentist are not equal!! Not even close. Get a second opinion. I cannot tell you how many horse owners come to me and say "I just had my horses teeth floated last month and he is still giving me fits" 99% of the time, it was not done correctly or completely.
Out of everything that has been posted I agree with this the most.
Until they are about 5-6, they're teeth change rapidly. |
|
| |
|
Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | astreakinchic - 2015-01-09 1:39 PM Canchasr1 - 2015-01-09 1:59 PM Several things I want to say on this..
First you have gotten some very sound advice from other posters about learning how to ride your horse the way HE was trained, dont expect the horse to ride the way you do. He is a baby that has been started by someone else, learn that persons cues, style, ect.
I see more train wrecks because people send horses to us and say, " I want a HANDLE put on my horse" Ok, we start them right, soft and working off our seat and legs and the owner takes them home and the horses head is in the air running off when they ride them a month because they are way too heavy handed and do not know how to ride correctly. the horse is confused and scared because they have NEVER been ridden that way. So, that being said, go back and take lessons with your horse.
Second, at four, just because his teeth were done three months ago, does not mean he may not have an issue. They are shedding and growing teeth until they are five. also, all equine dentist are not equal!! Not even close. Get a second opinion. I cannot tell you how many horse owners come to me and say "I just had my horses teeth floated last month and he is still giving me fits" 99% of the time, it was not done correctly or completely. EXACTLY!!!
The most frustrating thing about selling a horse, letting someone try one, or sending one home once we've had it for awhile is that the poor horse is so confused by all the yanking and pulling.
When I first started with my mentor he had me hop on a filly that I thought was literally gonna run off with me. The more I loosened up the more she loosened up eventually my hands got lighter and she got lighter. I never knew I was so heavy handed until that day and I had rode my whole life (24yrs old ). This man has given troy, marne, cody, and many others lessons. I wish I had enough pay to pay him to ride around with me like some others do! Until you learn what it means to have light hands you can not clearly communicate crap to your horse. 90% of people can NOT ride a broke horse.
This is very very true!!
Herbie and I just had this conversation recently.
Most people have no idea what it is like to ride one truelly broke
We have alot of trouble when we sell a horse because they have too many buttons for the average person. And I wont sell a horse to someone who cant ride the thing. It ends bad all the way around.
|
|
| |
|
  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | We did just have this conversation recently. Thankfully canchasr1 and I ride so similarly and ask for things so similarly that it makes her horses very easy for me to start with her foundation and for her to ride the pattern I put on them. Over the years with the horses I have sold, that is the first thing people say is, holy cow....when I wiggle my pinky they do something. Ummmm, yes, that's the objective! It's a speed event and I don't want to have to make big moves to get reactions, as that is time wasted in just my body movement alone.
|
|
| |
Is a Correction bit right for me?