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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Thought I would start a new thread because I think this could be a good discussion.
I was taught by a dressage/eventing trainer to sit "into" a horse to push them forward for canter instead of coming forward or rolling shoulders. To get forward momentum you have to push or ride the hindend.
Then on the flip side when it comes to running, the main focus is staying forward, which I struggle accomplishing because of showing in other things. I have to say, the more forward I am the whole run the better my horse clocks. Granted I'm not between his ears but I'm sitting lighter and getting up instead of down or deeper, and still balanced. Definitely not pushing with the seat though, more with the legs.
Grinandbareit can you expound on this a little more and how it relates to barrels and pushing one for speed?
"This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well. "
Edited by Fairweather 2015-01-27 12:02 PM
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 Accident Prone
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Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Getting a little forward will make them reach out and run flatter. Getting a lot forward will make them heavy on the front and impact their stride, as well as leave you with no real control of their body. You want your butt down and driving them forward, even when you're "up" which is easy to show but hard to explain.  |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Sorry, I know I'm not who you requested. I'm just excited to see real conversations on here again, |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Three 4 Luck - 2015-01-26 4:10 PM Sorry, I know I'm not who you requested. I'm just excited to see real conversations on here again,
No, I love the input!! |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Three 4 Luck - 2015-01-26 4:09 PM Getting a little forward will make them reach out and run flatter. Getting a lot forward will make them heavy on the front and impact their stride, as well as leave you with no real control of their body. You want your butt down and driving them forward, even when you're "up" which is easy to show but hard to explain.
It's hard to find that happy medium between sitting and up....I work two point quite a bit to work on balance but the concept of a driving butt while running is something I'm still trying to get my head around and feel.
At times it's almost you get get them in gear or set and then follow instead of keep pushing....If that makes sense. Whereas in other disciplines it seems you ride more stride for stride.
Edited by Fairweather 2015-01-26 4:27 PM
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 Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | We like to engage the hind and allow the energy to come from behind.. which gives us more control of the horse as a whole.. they also are lighter in front....if you stay centered and balanced and ask with your seat the horse will use his hind. If you lean forward he will go on front end and reach instead of drive and you end up leaving the hind part unengaged and basically riding 2 parts of the horse.. when hinds engaged you have a roll effect.. You can feel the energy coming from behind and rolling to front..
In all areas we want to ride the hind. lil tweaks for other movements yes..
If you think about it.... energy coming from hind and you give a halfhalt the horse will gather himself up better and be collected easier.. and use his back and you wont have to force his head in a frame and hollow his back out.he will therefore step under himself and engage.
once you achieve that you can move that horse anywhere.. in half passes for instance.. his motor is his hind end and legs.. we guide the front with our leg seat etc.. but the motor is his hind.
With Jumpers we do lean a tad forward but not our center. we still have to remain balanced for the horse over his body.. with barrel racing I think you still should stay centered to not lose the hindend. but possibly sit lighter then when time to rate sit deeper and drive with hind around supporting the ribs .you wouldnt want to pull front around , you want to ride the hind..i think....
I do not train Barrel horses but my philosophy is.. once you have the horses hind end engaged you can do anything..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 6:39 PM
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 Shelter Dog Lover
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| I am not good enough to execute it but my trainer is forever trying to get me to drive with my hips out of a turn- one day :). |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | another thought is when asking to canter if you cant get horse to step under or engage then do some lateral work within a big circle... this is of course for horses capable..to get hind more active you can ask a bit with a taptap tap with heel or bumper spurs.. slightly but quick and effective.. and if horse doesnt respond then tap with a whip on top of tail area make him more aware of his hind. make him activate it. this is just steps to get more active over time. some horses will be lazy and we tend to allow them to and just ride frontendy..then you use to much hand or ride the head. But iike I Mentioned I dont know alot about barrel training .I assume there is many ways to do it.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 5:57 PM
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 Proud to be Deplorable
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| Bibliafarm - 2015-01-26 5:49 PM
another thought is when asking to canter if you cant get horse to step under or engage then do some lateral work within a big circle... this is of course for horses capable..to get hind more active you can ask a bit with a taptap tap with heel or bumper spurs.. slightly but quick and effective.. and if horse doesnt respond then tap with a whip on top of tail area make him more aware of his hind. make him activate it. this is just steps to get more active over time. some horses will be lazy and we tend to allow them to and just ride frontendy..then you use to much hand or ride the head. But iike I Mentioned I dont know alot about barrel training .I assume there is many ways to do it.
I could not agree more with you Bib. If you can't control the rib cage and the rear end you have no control of the frontend. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
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Location: In the Hills of Texas | Great discussion. 
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
Biblia is correct in theory...
Let's start here and see if I can explain what we need in a barrel horse and why my program is what it is... I say MY program, because everyone does something a little different.
I grew up in the cutting horse industry... Rode horses for an awesome reining horse trainer that won a lot... and I took dressage lessons when I was in my late 30's early 40's from a lady that has done really well in her discipline... All those disciplines have worked great in my program because I feel a barrel horse needs to have a piece of all these disciplines...
They need to work on their own like a cutting horse, they need to be light and responsive like a reining horse, have a strong top line, allow you to control their body and keep contact with their mouth (without getting stiff) like a dressage horse. When you combine those qualities together you get an awesome horse, with lots of body control, great top-line, you have the ability to move them at speed when needed and yet they can work on their own. Then you add racehorse speed. Do all those things and you have the PERFECT barrel horse!
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
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Location: In the Hills of Texas | The biggest thing that sticks out for me, is barrel racers that get their horse real bendy in their neck but have never engaged the hindend or have taught a horse how to bend from the rib cage. Pretty easy to pick them out as you see them twirly birding their backend around the barrels. For what ever reason this drives me nuts. I'm also not a fan of people who sit on their horses and just bend the neck back and forth. JMO |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
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Location: In the Hills of Texas | Grinandbearit... |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | agree.... let the horse do the work yet do it effortlessly .. it takes time to achieve all that but its well worth it.. takes strength (horses) and your patience and lightness with your hands .. develop the horse properly..study the muscles and dynamics and think about it.. watch them move .
do a lil homework to try to figure out the best way to achieve.. if thats your end goal . some its not which i understand.. all programs are differant as grin said..
quiet aids but effective, soft hands and steady so horse knows it can trust those hands to not rip their mouth... and time to develop the horse and muscles play a huge role in their progress.. next month im heading to Oklahoma to ride some cutting horses IM excited!! I never have. so should be a experience. I have rode reiners a lil bit which are fun to.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-26 6:54 PM
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Accident Prone
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Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Nevertooold - 2015-01-26 6:36 PM The biggest thing that sticks out for me, is barrel racers that get their horse real bendy in their neck but have never engaged the hindend or have taught a horse how to bend from the rib cage. Pretty easy to pick them out as you see them twirly birding their backend around the barrels. For what ever reason this drives me nuts. I'm also not a fan of people who sit on their horses and just bend the neck back and forth. JMO
That drives me insane. I've had horses that were naturally noodle necked and they are a PIA to fix and keep fixed, so why in the world would anyone try to make a horse be that way? |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Fairweather - 2015-01-26 3:39 PM
Thought I would start a new thread because I think this could be a good discussion.
I was taught by a dressage/eventing trainer to sit "into" a horse to push them forward for canter instead of coming forward or rolling shoulders. To get forward momentum you have to push or ride the hindend.
Then on the flip side when it comes to running, the main focus is staying forward, which I struggle accomplishing because of showing in other things. I have to say, the more forward I am the whole run the better my horse clocks. Granted I'm not between his ears but I'm sitting lighter and getting up instead of down or deeper, and still balanced. Definitely not pushing with the seat though, more with the legs.
Grinandbareit can you expound on this a little more and how it relates to barrels and pushing one for speed?
"This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well. "
How do you find the happy medium between sitting deep in your saddle and still urging your horse forward for the run?
The first thing you need to do is lots of "home"work. If you have never felt a well collected horse that is round and supple and has a lot of energy in his step then it is hard to put into print what to do. You almost need someone on the ground to "coach" you into it so you can recognize what it feels like when they are "correct".
Before I go into the pen to make a run, I gather my horse up in my hands, I might back them up a few steps to get them thinking about using that booty and then, when I take off, I slightly elevate my seat and let them move out. I try to stay as much in the middle as I can. I don't really lean too forward with my shoulders, instead I lift through my hips and get just a hair forward of their motion, I call it the sweet spot. When you get in this spot, it smooths out your run and makes for a really pretty smooth pattern. It doesn't matter if you are on a 1d barn burner or a 5d horse that just doesn't have that kind of speed. If I do all those things, it means that I don't need to do much when we approach the turns. My training is done at home and when we get to the barrel race the horse already knows his job, so I just need to stay out of the way. I hope that answers your question.
There are so many pieces to the puzzle when it comes to teach a horse to be a great barrel horse. So many times we skip little pieces and the puzzle never really fits together properly. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | Getting a horse over-bendy in the neck is a problem I see a lot. We do need to remember that a horse needs to bend and flex through the rib cage, not so much the neck. If you want your horse to have a quick snappy turn and NOT be a barrel hitter, you need to teach them how to flex and lift through the barrel, round out in the back and still propel themselves forward.
All these things are a good foundation for any program and any discipline. Far too often we get a little impatient and skip some of those steps. Although we may get away with that in the short term, it's not helping you long term to skip them. If problems arise, and they will, you need to have that strong foundation to go back to.
It is definitely worth the little bit of extra work in the long run. Think about the book "The Three Little Pigs", lol.
Edited by grinandbareit 2015-01-26 7:07 PM
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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I wasn't invited either, hope it's okay to respond...
IMO, we are riding race horses that have to collect and engage their hind-end to turn.
So, to answer the OP's question in really simple terms, we ride forward, then sit and drive the back-end under them, continue to sit and drive through the turn, then we ride up and forward again (over the horse's center of gravity, without hindering or interfering with them.)
My huntseat instuctor also drilled SITTING and not leaning your shoulders forward into the canter. However, English riders do ride forward with their entire posture, not just shoulders. Try standing in your saddle at a w/t/c and see what happens.
I really enjoyed reading this article about riding at a gallop: http://useventing.com/resources/files/upload/TheGallopposition-BethPerkins.pdf
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | just4fun - 2015-01-26 8:19 PM I wasn't invited either, hope it's okay to respond...
IMO, we are riding race horses that have to collect and engage their hind-end to turn.
So, to answer the OP's question in really simple terms, we ride forward, then sit and drive the back-end under them, continue to sit and drive through the turn, then we ride up and forward again (over the horse's center of gravity, without hindering or interfering with them.)
My huntseat instuctor also drilled SITTING and not leaning your shoulders forward into the canter. However, English riders do ride forward with their entire posture, not just shoulders. Try standing in your saddle at a w/t/c and see what happens.
I really enjoyed reading this article about riding at a gallop: http://useventing.com/resources/files/upload/TheGallopposition-BethPerkins.pdf
I wasn't invited either..LOL |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | LOL we had just been discussing on that "other "thread so she wanted us to see this one i think :)is why our names are on line.
discussions about horses and riding styles and differant ways of doing things are interesting..  |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners.
During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
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| Good discussion. When we started with Jan using your seat is the first thing she worked on with my girls. They spent 2 months in the round pen with no bridle or stirrups learning to guide with your seat. It as amazing how their riding improved. We had spent almost 3 years with another "trainer" and there one not one conversation about using your seat.
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-01-27 6:53 AM
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | WrapSnap - 2015-01-26 10:33 PM I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners. During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point.
With a horse that has a lot of natural rate do you tend to sit as deep and use a ton of leg or do you sit a little lighter?
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | grinandbareit - 2015-01-26 6:35 PM Biblia is correct in theory... Let's start here and see if I can explain what we need in a barrel horse and why my program is what it is... I say MY program, because everyone does something a little different. I grew up in the cutting horse industry... Rode horses for an awesome reining horse trainer that won a lot... and I took dressage lessons when I was in my late 30's early 40's from a lady that has done really well in her discipline... All those disciplines have worked great in my program because I feel a barrel horse needs to have a piece of all these disciplines... They need to work on their own like a cutting horse, they need to be light and responsive like a reining horse, have a strong top line, allow you to control their body and keep contact with their mouth (without getting stiff) like a dressage horse. When you combine those qualities together you get an awesome horse, with lots of body control, great top-line, you have the ability to move them at speed when needed and yet they can work on their own. Then you add racehorse speed. Do all those things and you have the PERFECT barrel horse!
Love this!! |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | grinandbareit - 2015-01-26 6:54 PM Fairweather - 2015-01-26 3:39 PM Thought I would start a new thread because I think this could be a good discussion.
I was taught by a dressage/eventing trainer to sit "into" a horse to push them forward for canter instead of coming forward or rolling shoulders. To get forward momentum you have to push or ride the hindend.
Then on the flip side when it comes to running, the main focus is staying forward, which I struggle accomplishing because of showing in other things. I have to say, the more forward I am the whole run the better my horse clocks. Granted I'm not between his ears but I'm sitting lighter and getting up instead of down or deeper, and still balanced. Definitely not pushing with the seat though, more with the legs.
Grinandbareit can you expound on this a little more and how it relates to barrels and pushing one for speed?
"This is a huge part of what we focus on at the clinics... Everyone that comes wants to lean forward with their shoulders to get their horse to go from a stop to a walk, trot, or canter. What I try to get them to focus on is using their seat and their energy to propel their horse forward. You do not have to hang off their ears to get them to go. As a matter of fact, I lean just a tad further back when getting my horse to move out. 80% leg and seat... 20% hands and shoulders. If not, it can keep a horse strung out and doesn't build the muscles that they need to turn and leave a barrel properly. When you build those muscles and teach a horse to use them correctly you will find that your horse gets less injuries as well. "
How do you find the happy medium between sitting deep in your saddle and still urging your horse forward for the run? The first thing you need to do is lots of "home"work. If you have never felt a well collected horse that is round and supple and has a lot of energy in his step then it is hard to put into print what to do. You almost need someone on the ground to "coach" you into it so you can recognize what it feels like when they are "correct". Before I go into the pen to make a run, I gather my horse up in my hands, I might back them up a few steps to get them thinking about using that booty and then, when I take off, I slightly elevate my seat and let them move out. I try to stay as much in the middle as I can. I don't really lean too forward with my shoulders, instead I lift through my hips and get just a hair forward of their motion, I call it the sweet spot. When you get in this spot, it smooths out your run and makes for a really pretty smooth pattern. It doesn't matter if you are on a 1d barn burner or a 5d horse that just doesn't have that kind of speed. If I do all those things, it means that I don't need to do much when we approach the turns. My training is done at home and when we get to the barrel race the horse already knows his job, so I just need to stay out of the way. I hope that answers your question. There are so many pieces to the puzzle when it comes to teach a horse to be a great barrel horse. So many times we skip little pieces and the puzzle never really fits together properly.
..... I try to stay as much in the middle as I can. I don't really lean too forward with my shoulders, instead I lift through my hips and get just a hair forward of their motion... <<<< This makes sense to me. |
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Expert
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| Nevertooold - 2015-01-26 7:36 PM
The biggest thing that sticks out for me, is barrel racers that get their horse real bendy in their neck but have never engaged the hindend or have taught a horse how to bend from the rib cage. Pretty easy to pick them out as you see them twirly birding their backend around the barrels. For what ever reason this drives me nuts. I'm also not a fan of people who sit on their horses and just bend the neck back and forth. JMO
I'd like to also add those horses and the MOST sore and the owner is never able to tell it. If you lay your horse out going into the barrels he will be all strung out and more prone to injury, this is also when most horses trip or stumble.
Most people can keep their horses in order on one and two but people who can't tune one are evident when you see that horse get VERY laid out on number 3. If you watch at the big races in happens a lot with the kiddos. |
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 You get what you give
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Location: Texas | I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM
I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end.
Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck
He rides like that but doesn't compete so it means nothing to me..LOL His wife doesn't ride like that and she is the one competing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd11Sg0JVuQ
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bibliafarm - 2015-01-27 3:21 PM balanced and keep Your Core in center. If you lean forward with your upper torso ..and that is your style you should keep your "" core centered" and butt centered and back if that makes sense .
Makes sense to me.. |
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 I hate cooking and cleaning
Posts: 3314
Location: Jersey Girl | Bibliafarm - 2015-01-27 4:21 PM balanced and keep Your Core in center. If you lean forward with your upper torso ..and that is your style you should keep your "" core centered" and butt centered and back if that makes sense .
Hhmmm so how does one learn to do this? I (and my horse) would def benefit from this. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | sorry on cell and didn't realize it went thru yet.I wasn't finished ..bareback helps with balance..trot work . I'll go into detail when I get in laptop |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas |
Okay... I hate watching myself ride, but here it is. I'll put my money where my mouth is, lol... I probably get floppy arms more than I should but I have always done that when I run - in my mind it makes me think I'm running faster, lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGVlxqizAfs
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 3:31 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck
Your link didn't work for me, so I googled Martha watched one from 2011 on her stud and I disagree bum in saddle body forward and hand upper part of neck.
Also to discredit Ed, he has trained multiple champions and taught many world champions how to ride. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. |
try this again... Stay Balanced and keep your core in center . if you lean forward with your style of riding and upper torso try to remain centered with your core and butt . keep your hips balanced and down in seat almost like a rope is tied to saddle around your waist. bareback lessons, no stirrups will help balance you to. you want to feel light with your torso straight up.. but bend at chest level if you are leaning forward.that will help keep your weight evenly over horses center . I see alot of people that truly get in the way of the horses working.. alot of mistakes and issues are from riders in the way or unbalanced... key factor is centered and balanced.. and allow horse freedom to move.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-01-27 4:13 PM
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:50 PM Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 3:31 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck Your link didn't work for me, so I googled Martha watched one from 2011 on her stud and I disagree bum in saddle body forward and hand upper part of neck. Also to discredit Ed, he has trained multiple champions and taught many world champions how to ride.
You just said two different things.
That horse was hard to ride and would throw her around but that isn't how she usually rides...You can always find an exception.
It would be very hard for a normal person to have his seat in the saddle with his top half of their body half way up their horses neck.
I wasn't discrediteding Ed's abilities so quit reading into BS that I didn't say. I stated a fact..he doesn't compete. Martha does and she stays deep in her saddle with her body tilted a little bit. Not half way up her horse's neck. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 4:10 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:50 PM Nevertooold - 2015-01-27 3:31 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end. Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck Your link didn't work for me, so I googled Martha watched one from 2011 on her stud and I disagree bum in saddle body forward and hand upper part of neck. Also to discredit Ed, he has trained multiple champions and taught many world champions how to ride.
That horse was hard to ride and would throw her around but that isn't how she usually rides...You can always find an exception.
It would be very hard for a normal person to have his seat in the saddle with his top half of their body half way up their horses neck.
I wasn't discrediteding Ed's abilities so quit reading into BS that I didn't say. I stated a fact..he doesn't compete. Martha does and she stays deep in her saddle with her body tilted a little bit. Not half way up her horse's neck.
You specifically said
Ed doesn't ride therefore he doesn't count
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Nevertooold - 2015-01-26 6:29 PM Great discussion.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-01-27 3:06 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-01-27 2:24 PM
I use the same trainer as rodeomom3. She emphasizes using your seat as your drive- up means go, sit means whoa in simple terms. It's all about the shift in weight in the hip and seat, not the shoulders. In fact, she got onto me once because I was trying to ride so hard I was bending at the hip and my torso was too far forward- she said that was shifting my weight onto their front end because too much of my front end was in front. Happy medium. Just like dropping your shoulder in the turn, if you lean too far forward you are pushing your horse out of balance and onto his front end.
Then there is Ed Wright who drives with his seat but is hunched over and riding in the upper half of the horses neck
Glad I don't have to ride behind him! |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | Fairweather - 2015-01-27 11:37 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-01-26 10:33 PM I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners. During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point.
With a horse that has a lot of natural rate do you tend to sit as deep and use a ton of leg or do you sit a little lighter?
For one that has a ton of rate at the turn, I sit even more deeply and use my seat to drive one forward and around the barrel. For one that is more the type that you have to pedal at them in order to get any run at all, I tend to sit a bit lighter, while using my lower back to get putting that same sort of driving motion into them and encouraging them forward with my entire leg, starting at the thigh. |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | The first barrel in this video offers a pretty good example of my allowing my shoulders to drop back behind me and really using a driving seat in order to shove a very worky horse around the backside of a barrel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HGBL1iyUhM
This video is of a horse who required that you shove her with everything that you had every step of the way in order to get any sort of run. She was not however, overly ratey in the turns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UGi9h5tbVc |
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8699
Location: the end of the rainbow | Bibliafarm - 2015-01-27 1:40 PM sorry on cell and didn't realize it went thru yet.I wasn't finished ..bareback helps with balance..trot work . I'll go into detail when I get in laptop
Bareback with proper equitation. Most barrel racers don't have a really good concept of equitation and how using your body can effect how your horse uses their body. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | WrapSnap - 2015-01-27 9:36 PM
Fairweather - 2015-01-27 11:37 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-01-26 10:33 PM I tend to ride with my seat and thigh far more than most barrel racers. I also teach the use of seat and thigh in ways that many have never been taught. Until the last few years, I had never ridden super ratey horses on a consistent basis. Actually, up until then, I had ridden exactly 1 regularly. I ride every horse with my seat and leg in the dry work. This may be a hard concept for some, as I can often be seen loping around slightly out of the tack , using a more "sweeping" seat, or what some would call a two point position. Even then, my seat and thigh are having the greatest impact on my horse. When running a pattern however, I find that a "Driving" seat is a very beneficial tool, especially on those super ratey, snappy and rollback style turners. During the 2013 NFR, I did a critique thread. In that thread, I commented several times on how well Taylor Jacobs used her seat and thigh to drive Bo past the backside of a few barrels. Her riding in those moments was a great example of how the Driving seat can be used in the turn. The seat and hip can be used to pick one up and send them forward leaving the turn, as well. Every time that we close our thigh against a horse and tuck our tush in a driving motion, we should immediately feel a forward response. I have been told by many that my horses would run faster if I didn't get behind them in the turns, but in actuality, I am hitting the gas pedal at that point.
With a horse that has a lot of natural rate do you tend to sit as deep and use a ton of leg or do you sit a little lighter?
For one that has a ton of rate at the turn, I sit even more deeply and use my seat to drive one forward and around the barrel. For one that is more the type that you have to pedal at them in order to get any run at all, I tend to sit a bit lighter, while using my lower back to get putting that same sort of driving motion into them and encouraging them forward with my entire leg, starting at the thigh.
Good point on one that rates and keeps running and one that rates that to have to hustle. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | WrapSnap - 2015-01-27 9:43 PM The first barrel in this video offers a pretty good example of my allowing my shoulders to drop back behind me and really using a driving seat in order to shove a very worky horse around the backside of a barrel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HGBL1iyUhM This video is of a horse who required that you shove her with everything that you had every step of the way in order to get any sort of run. She was not however, overly ratey in the turns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UGi9h5tbVc
Thanks for posting these two. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | grinandbareit - 2015-01-27 4:42 PM Okay... I hate watching myself ride, but here it is. I'll put my money where my mouth is, lol... I probably get floppy arms more than I should but I have always done that when I run - in my mind it makes me think I'm running faster, lol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGVlxqizAfs
lol...on the floppy arms comment - I do the same thing...I look like a dysfunctional bird but in my head it seems like I'm trying harder to go faster...or fly...
Your video definitely shows what you are talking about re: your seat and driving without leaning too far forward. And maybe it's because I grew up riding jumpers, but I've seen so many people get into trouble by leaning too far forward and just hovering on or even in front of, the horse's forehand. If that horse trips, stops, etc...that rider will be eating dirt. Not to mention the horse becomes heavy on the forehand and loses all impulsion/momentum from behind. |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas |
Here is a good example of how much it benefits us when we stay in the middle of our horse during our run... The ground here was really bad and several horses fell at this rodeo... I credit no shoes, sitting right in the middle, and the grace of God, that we stood up...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHh7LGY4GwA&feature=youtu.be
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I feel compelled to point out that there is a difference in a driving seat and humping your horse.  |
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pressure dripper
Posts: 8699
Location: the end of the rainbow | Three 4 Luck - 2015-01-28 8:57 AM I feel compelled to point out that there is a difference in a driving seat and humping your horse.
Edited by willrodeo4food 2015-01-29 8:02 AM
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Go For It!
Location: Texas |
I have to say this... Some people can really handle their horses and do a lot of "stuff" during their run. I CAN NOT. I need to make sure that my horse knows his job and can do it without too much help from me. If I had to do all the stuff that WrapSnap did, I would fall off, lol.
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | grinandbareit - 2015-01-28 11:07 AM I have to say this... Some people can really handle their horses and do a lot of "stuff" during their run. I CAN NOT. I need to make sure that my horse knows his job and can do it without too much help from me. If I had to do all the stuff that WrapSnap did, I would fall off, lol.
I can't either! I am just now getting to the point where I can think during a run. Fortunately my horse is extremely consistent and waits on me but I have to keep him going and push too! Now that I'm thinking more, I'm noticing more subtle things that make a difference. |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | grinandbareit - 2015-01-28 11:07 AM
I have to say this... Some people can really handle their horses and do a lot of "stuff" during their run. I CAN NOT. I need to make sure that my horse knows his job and can do it without too much help from me. If I had to do all the stuff that WrapSnap did, I would fall off, lol.
I agree with you wholeheartedly! Unfortunately, the Paint mare had been through a ton of hands before I got her and what we have now is a far cry better than what I first received. I'm not a proponent of doing all of that handling, it just is what it is with that one and I love her dearly. lol |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | grinandbareit - 2015-01-28 11:07 AM
I have to say this... Some people can really handle their horses and do a lot of "stuff" during their run. I CAN NOT. I need to make sure that my horse knows his job and can do it without too much help from me. If I had to do all the stuff that WrapSnap did, I would fall off, lol.
That is why I like to watch you ride! I can't do all that either. I don't even like to whip in the middle of the run. All I want to have to worry about is getting to the barrel and getting up and out of their way leaving it. My biggest self criticism is if I am late leaving a barrel and my hand ends up pulling against them on the back side. I want to be ready and up and out of there to the next one.
I am not good at having to do A, B, C, and X Y and Z to get through the pattern clean. And I don't like riding those kind.. I like the be still, let them work kind! |
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Spin off from dressage - Grinandbareit , Biblia EVERYONE invited :)