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 Expert
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| I know a couple of people who are taking rescued thouroughbreds to the Retired Racehorse Projects: Thouroughbred Showcase in Kentucky. Following their journey http://offtrackthoroughbreds.com/2015/02/27/trampled-kill-pen-mare-readies-for-show/ has me thinking and I would like to hear your thoughts as well. What can we do to prevent so many horses being neglected and taken to auction to face kill pens and slaughter? My livelyhood relies significantly on the horse market because my husband is in training and sales. I understand the need for slaughter, but on the same token I hate seeing it on such a large scale. There are an estimated 37,000 Thouroughbred horses born every year. A few will be successful winners and producers, and some end up with a second career in jumping etc. What about the masses? This isnt just a Throuroughbred problem but a problem that affects all breeds and diciplines. There are many organizations out there to promote second careers for retired race horses and they are doing a great job. SO...what ELSE can we do? What, in your opinion could be a solution to these problems.
Edited by scwebster 2015-02-27 11:17 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| I feel like backyard breeders are a small percentage compared to the amount of race horses run through a sale barn headed to Mexico or Canada. | |
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 I hate cooking and cleaning
Posts: 3314
Location: Jersey Girl | FlyingJT - 2015-02-27 12:33 PM I feel like backyard breeders are a small percentage compared to the amount of race horses run through a sale barn headed to Mexico or Canada.
I agree.
I don't feel backyard breeders help the situation but QH, TB and standardbred's are mass produced. There are farms and ranches that have huge bands of broodmares that they breed year after year. | |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Slaughter is the solution to overproducing. There are always going to be culls with livestock. If you can't get rid of the culls someone will pick them up at the right price and perpetuate the problem. Even the shelters understand that with dogs and cats. If nobody wants them they are put down. Same thing must exist with horses.
Edited by Whiteboy 2015-02-27 11:48 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM
No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter.
Do me a favor and never vote, K thanks. | |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I personally would like to see some accountability from all breeders... yes backyard breeders are part of the problem but I think there any many "high end" breeding operations who are also big contributers. Racing is a huge part of it. And I dont mean to gain enemies but I think these "hot bloodlines" are losing value because EVERYONE needs a stud out of said hot bloodlines. They no longer are so hot when there is 1,000 of them in a few hundred mile radius.
I also understand slaughter has its needs but I agree with the OP that it is in excessive volumes.
I know I will get flamed for this and I dont have all the answers but I would like to have some breeding restrictions by the organizations. I know the argument is that this wont stop backyard breeders but I think this is a small piece of the puzzle. And with that said, out of the many "backyard breeders" in this area, a good majority breed registered offsprings. They are intelligent enough to know that registration is important, there bloodlines just arent anything impressive. | |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Whiteboy - 2015-02-27 11:47 AM
Slaughter is the solution to overproducing. There are always going to be culls with livestock. If you can't get rid of the culls someone will pick them up at the right price and perpetuate the problem. Even the shelters understand that with dogs and cats. If nobody wants them they are put down. Same thing must exist with horses.
Agree. | |
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 Expert
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| Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM
No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter.
I have to disagree with this statement completely. There are great mares and studs that have never competed, have no earnings to speak of but did tremendous things for the industry. I believe Caseys Charm was never ran. Never earned a dollar but produced some very outstanding individuals, including French Flash Hawk, Frenchmans Hayday and Frenchmans Fabulous.
What about injury? Injury has kept many great producers from being successful in the arena but not in the breeding pen.
Plus what is successful to one may not be successful to others. What about ranches? What would they do for horses? Their string is most likely not proven in the arena but they will put in a hard days work, and that what makes a successful ranch horse. How will the ranches replace their horses? They aren't going to spend goobs of money on animals with impectiable pedigrees and proven parents. It wouldn't be beneficial to their program. We've had some **** good ranch bred horses.
I don't know what the solution is but I think we would miss out on a whole lot of great animals if that is it.
Edited by cyount2009 2015-02-27 12:09 PM
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Member
Posts: 5
| Yes let's become communist. Because people should not have the right to breed horses that they paid for and feed unless they have special licenses and schooling from the state and after you have all that licensing Suzy Q and John Doe must approve that the two horses that you own are quality enough to breed for your own private purposes. Ugh. SMH. I hold my tongue very well but I can't stand people that think individuals don't have rights. I don't like backyard breeders at all, but I LOVE that America is a free country and people have the right to do as they please with and on their own property. Let's not change that. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 278
Location: Whitney, NE | So here is the future as I see it with more rules and regulations on the breeding industry.
1) I apply to breed my mare to my chosen stallion.
2) Eventually the regulations will become more strict, in addition to garnering approval of a potential mating, said breeder will be forced to undergo inspections of facility and care of the breeding stock.
3) This will lead to approved stock being required to stand at an approved facility operated by certified people who have been given the responsibility of caring "correctly" for the livestock.
4) Since the breeding population will be significantly decreased, it will be vital that all approved makings result in a foal that is properly trained and shown by competent individuals- there won't be room for novice or amature handlers anymore.
5) This will result in more certification and licensure this time to be a trainer and possibly even a rider, because eventually it will become a safety and liability factor for non professional, proven people to be riding and handling the horses.
I realize this sounds and is far-fetched, but my point is, where does the regulation stop? Who is to say that if I am not competent to decide whether or not to breed an animal that I have purchased and cared for, that ultimately my right to decide what to do with them all together won't be taken away? | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I also enjoy that we live in a free country but I also recognize that apparently the human race isnt being responsible enough. Why do we have laws? because clearly people need guidelines. There is always a chance that regulations can get out of hand, just as the over population has...
You can play that argument both ways.
There is always the chance that breed organizations impliment some basic regulations and these regulations could increase the quality of horses and ensure more value aka the market. Many of you all complain about the crappy market and think slaughter is the need... however, in my opinion it is just a bandaid for the underlying issue. Us... as in humans... breeders.
Isn't it entirely possible that the above could happen? Just as possible as the other negative effects you predict from regulating breeding? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | I think something that might help is for breed organizations to hold stallion and mare tests. They do this with Fresians I believe and then people even advertise based on how well their breeding tested (there are different levels, just like A, B, and C are all passing but A is best of the lot). If the animal does not pass the test then the organization requires that the animal be gelded or not bred (i.e. will not register the stock as they are not in the "breeding registry" from the test). This could start with the basics like passing the 5 panel, not being parrot mouthed, or anything that would disqualify a horse in a halter class, etc.
I don't know that this would completely take care of the problem, but it might be a start. And its not overregulation by a government entity that just makes it bigger and more expensive. | |
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 Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | There will always be irresponsible breeders/owners...it's not up to the government to regulate any of this...if anything, it's up to the breed associations that turn a blind eye to the increasing numbers of their horses going to slaughter when they don't measure up, but these associations only care about the money from membership and registration numbers, so they allow more and more lenient breeding tactics.....we are way beyond live cover breeding, which was self limiting....but now with AI, shipped semen, clones, embryo transfer, etc., the number of foals is limitless...is this good or bad?...I don't know...just sayin......I don't think you can count on them to put limits on breeding situations...
I don't have answers either except that I am responsible myself and stopped breeding years ago because I didn't have a solid plan for a foal...and unless I can keep the foal and train it myself, I won't breed.
I have room to foster a couple rescues, so I plan to incorporate that into my horse situation....I know the rescue people do all they can to help the animals and they never have enough money or homes, and I also donate as a business and personally to the recues in my area....I do what I can, and I think posts like these that make people aware of the situation help...so hopefully, there are more people out there who will find a way to take in a rescue, even temporarily, or contribute in some way.....
All 4 of my dogs are rescues, and I have rescued and found homes for countless dogs who have been abandoned...I take them to the vet, have them spayed or neutered, shots, get them healthy etc. and then find a good home for them....it's my way of giving back in memory of all of my animals who have been special to me in my life....
I wish I had better answers, but as long as there are people out there who irresponsibly breed or abuse animals, there have to be more and more of us who are willing to step in and help the animals who can't help themselves...and I do believe a necessary evil is slaughter...unfortunately, some of the very people who breed these horses already know they are signing their death warrant if they don't perform as expected, and they don't care....they throw an obscene amount of money into breeding for winners...it's too bad they don't do the same for the leftovers...
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| As I said I understand there is a need for slaughter. However I feel a very large number of horses go to slaughter because there is simply no place for them. It isnt because they are old or sick, or kulls. Im not sure what the solution is but I do wish we as horse people could be more responsible for situations we create.
Edited by scwebster 2015-02-27 1:18 PM
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I wouldn't call producing an animal you have a plan and use for backyard breeding at all. | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options.
And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things.
I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never. | |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| I dont belive that the people you are refering to, are even involved with the breed associations. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:08 PM
SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options.
And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things.
I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never.
Explain to me how the breed association could limit the over breeding problem? Since horses are not registered until they hit the ground how could this stop someone from breeding mares?
Ok, so theoretically speaking, you could say that they can only have x amount of mares listed on stud reports. All resulting offspring must meet a "breed standard" to be registered. Great. But what keeps a stallion owner from breeding all of their mares, filing late reports and only registering the colts that are "of breed standard". They aren't out a stud fee because they own the stud and the mares. The only thing they are out is time and care on the mare. Now you have a group of unregistered colts with little to no value because A. the owner opted not to file on them and B. with out papers, a colt in this day and age are grade babies worth rock bottom price. Sure you might find the occasional person who would pick one up because they know what the parents are but what about the others? The breeder is not going to to take the time to find "responsible" owners for them when he is only looking at getting a few 100 dollars a colt, if that. Come weaning time he is going to take all those "undesirable" babies straight to the sale. All this is going to do is drive up the price on the registered colts and bottom price down on unregistered stock.
And honestly, I don't think the quarter horse association can really push "breed standard" any more. Especially not with the diverse use of horses in this day and age. A top barrel horse probably wont place in the halter pen and a top halter horse wont do well in the arena.
Edited by cyount2009 2015-02-27 3:38 PM
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| cyount2009 - 2015-02-27 3:34 PM
stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:08 PM
SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM
Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality.
I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options.
And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things.
I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never.
Explain to me how the breed association could limit the over breeding problem? Since horses are not registered until they hit the ground how could this stop someone from breeding mares?
Ok, so theoretically speaking, you could say that they can only have x amount of mares listed on stud reports. All resulting offspring must meet a "breed standard" to be registered. Great. But what keeps a stallion owner from breeding all of their mares, filing late reports and only registering the colts that are "of breed standard". They aren't out a stud fee because they own the stud and the mares. The only thing they are out is time and care on the mare. Now you have a group of unregistered colts with little to no value because A. the owner opted not to file on them and B. with out papers, a colt in this day and age are grade babies worth rock bottom price. Sure you might find the occasional person who would pick one up because they know what the parents are but what about the others? The breeder is not going to to take the time to find "responsible" owners for them when he is only looking at getting a few 100 dollars a colt, if that. Come weaning time he is going to take all those "undesirable" babies straight to the sale. All this is going to do is drive up the price on the registered colts and bottom price down on unregistered stock.
And honestly, I don't think the quarter horse association can really push "breed standard" any more. Especially not with the diverse use of horses in this day and age. A top barrel horse probably wont place in the halter pen and a top halter horse wont do well in the arena.
My idea... again this is an idea and I never claimed to have all the answers. However, my idea is that if a breed registy added a restriction such as x amount of foals could be bred to a particular stallion or registering your horse as a "standing stud" or they have to pass some sort of quality standard... Apply for a breeding through the registry... whatever the regulation may be... It could decrease the idea of breeding to breed. I think it would be a deterrant if said breeder covers 10 mares and isnt following regulation, therefore cannot register any of the 10. Brings 10 grade horses to sale which go for rock bottom prices... clearly the incentive behind their so called breeding operation deteriotes. I understand that it doesnt cost them a stud fee, some dont even have any vet care done through the pregnancy... but as I said if these horses arent going to be registerable and they cannot sell them for more than $100 a piece... they likely wont continue with it. It would cost them more than that to feed them until weaning.
I dont know if this makes sense. Its hard for me to put what I am thinking into writing... but my honest opinion is too many people try and make money as a breeder... and if they actually have standards and regulations and it isnt a free-for-all, they're gonna think twice about their get rich quick scheme.
What blows my mind about this is... because people cannot be responsible we are okay with tons of healthy horses going to slaughter because we refuse to be accountable? I dont have all the answers, I am not a breeder so I am sure many of you know more about the registration process than I do. We can sit back and settle for this type of activity in the horse industry or we can try and improve it. | |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:59 PM cyount2009 - 2015-02-27 3:34 PM stayceem - 2015-02-27 2:08 PM SaraJean - 2015-02-27 1:28 PM Bottom line, slaughter is needed. There is no way to prevent people from being irrisponsible and mistreating, neglecting & dumping horses, dogs, cats.....For many horses slaughter is a better alternative than the life they live. The absolute last thing I'd want to see is more regulations as far as who can raise, train & own horses. That's just asking for trouble. I also do not believe back yard breeders are the problem, by the standards of many here I am a backyard breeder. I raise maybe 1 or two foals a year at the most. I raise what I want to ride & have not sold a single foal and do not plan to any time soon. I also have zero interest in picking up a resuce horse and putting my time and money into rehabbing them mentally and physically and MAYBE having a usable horse in the end. The "big" breeders trying to create their next world champion are the ones mass producting horses, not the little guy that raises a couple that they truly enjoy. You will not stop this from happening. The end answer is slaughter plants are needed so that there is a place to go with the unwanted animals. No, it's not a pretty answer, but it is reality. I also wouldnt consider you a backyard breeder and as my post said, I think thats a minimal issue in the grand scheme of things. However, I also think if horses market value increased there would be more options for resale. If the market wasnt flooded, many of these "slaughter bound" horses would have options. And I also agree, we cannot make people be responsible but I also agree that the breeding for a champion is a huge problem.... flame away... This may not change the sick people in this world who neglect/starve horses but adding some kind of regulation could help with the flooding and reduced options as I said above. I also believe the number of truly starved/neglect cases are something related to mental illness... theres something we cant do about it and I think thats also minimal in the grand scheme of things. I know I am wasting my breath as Ive seen these conversations circulate on BHW for years and years. But I do think there are options... I never suggested the government add regulations but I think it would be responsible for breed organizations to do so. Clearly people need limits since they cant seem to limit themselves. Another poster said breed organizations wouldnt do this, maybe they wouldnt... has it ever been pursued? No. Never say never. Explain to me how the breed association could limit the over breeding problem? Since horses are not registered until they hit the ground how could this stop someone from breeding mares? Ok, so theoretically speaking, you could say that they can only have x amount of mares listed on stud reports. All resulting offspring must meet a "breed standard" to be registered. Great. But what keeps a stallion owner from breeding all of their mares, filing late reports and only registering the colts that are "of breed standard". They aren't out a stud fee because they own the stud and the mares. The only thing they are out is time and care on the mare. Now you have a group of unregistered colts with little to no value because A. the owner opted not to file on them and B. with out papers, a colt in this day and age are grade babies worth rock bottom price. Sure you might find the occasional person who would pick one up because they know what the parents are but what about the others? The breeder is not going to to take the time to find "responsible" owners for them when he is only looking at getting a few 100 dollars a colt, if that. Come weaning time he is going to take all those "undesirable" babies straight to the sale. All this is going to do is drive up the price on the registered colts and bottom price down on unregistered stock. And honestly, I don't think the quarter horse association can really push "breed standard" any more. Especially not with the diverse use of horses in this day and age. A top barrel horse probably wont place in the halter pen and a top halter horse wont do well in the arena. My idea... again this is an idea and I never claimed to have all the answers. However, my idea is that if a breed registy added a restriction such as x amount of foals could be bred to a particular stallion or registering your horse as a "standing stud" or they have to pass some sort of quality standard... Apply for a breeding through the registry... whatever the regulation may be... It could decrease the idea of breeding to breed. I think it would be a deterrant if said breeder covers 10 mares and isnt following regulation, therefore cannot register any of the 10. Brings 10 grade horses to sale which go for rock bottom prices... clearly the incentive behind their so called breeding operation deteriotes. I understand that it doesnt cost them a stud fee, some dont even have any vet care done through the pregnancy... but as I said if these horses arent going to be registerable and they cannot sell them for more than $100 a piece... they likely wont continue with it. It would cost them more than that to feed them until weaning. I dont know if this makes sense. Its hard for me to put what I am thinking into writing... but my honest opinion is too many people try and make money as a breeder... and if they actually have standards and regulations and it isnt a free-for-all, they're gonna think twice about their get rich quick scheme. What blows my mind about this is... because people cannot be responsible we are okay with tons of healthy horses going to slaughter because we refuse to be accountable? I dont have all the answers, I am not a breeder so I am sure many of you know more about the registration process than I do. We can sit back and settle for this type of activity in the horse industry or we can try and improve it.
All I see that doing is causing more grade horses that would end up getting shipped to Mexico. As is, you can find registered foals for $50-$150. Every fall there is a sale here with 600+ weanlings, there are so many babies that they can't even get bids on all of them. It doesn't change a thing. Year after year the same "breeders" are there with their foals. You can't force people into making responsible intelligent decisions.
I cannot control other peoples choices. If someone wants to breed trashy grade colts for "fun" they're going to do it regardless of if they loose money every year. And if someone else wants to breed 50+ mares a year in hopes of producing their next world champion again that is their decision. For me I choose to raise what I want to ride & be responsible for those horses.
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | whatadoll - 2015-02-27 12:26 PM
So here is the future as I see it with more rules and regulations on the breeding industry.
1) I apply to breed my mare to my chosen stallion.
2) Eventually the regulations will become more strict, in addition to garnering approval of a potential mating, said breeder will be forced to undergo inspections of facility and care of the breeding stock.
3) This will lead to approved stock being required to stand at an approved facility operated by certified people who have been given the responsibility of caring "correctly" for the livestock.
4) Since the breeding population will be significantly decreased, it will be vital that all approved makings result in a foal that is properly trained and shown by competent individuals- there won't be room for novice or amature handlers anymore.
5) This will result in more certification and licensure this time to be a trainer and possibly even a rider, because eventually it will become a safety and liability factor for non professional, proven people to be riding and handling the horses.
I realize this sounds and is far-fetched, but my point is, where does the regulation stop? Who is to say that if I am not competent to decide whether or not to breed an animal that I have purchased and cared for, that ultimately my right to decide what to do with them all together won't be taken away?
...well don't stop there... Let us go on to....
#6: You finally get your approved mare bred to an approved stallion and still get junk that winds up in a slaughterhouse.
Edited by komet. 2015-02-27 8:41 PM
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| komet. - 2015-02-27 4:40 PM
whatadoll - 2015-02-27 12:26 PM
So here is the future as I see it with more rules and regulations on the breeding industry.
1) I apply to breed my mare to my chosen stallion.
2) Eventually the regulations will become more strict, in addition to garnering approval of a potential mating, said breeder will be forced to undergo inspections of facility and care of the breeding stock.
3) This will lead to approved stock being required to stand at an approved facility operated by certified people who have been given the responsibility of caring "correctly" for the livestock.
4) Since the breeding population will be significantly decreased, it will be vital that all approved makings result in a foal that is properly trained and shown by competent individuals- there won't be room for novice or amature handlers anymore.
5) This will result in more certification and licensure this time to be a trainer and possibly even a rider, because eventually it will become a safety and liability factor for non professional, proven people to be riding and handling the horses.
I realize this sounds and is far-fetched, but my point is, where does the regulation stop? Who is to say that if I am not competent to decide whether or not to breed an animal that I have purchased and cared for, that ultimately my right to decide what to do with them all together won't be taken away?
...well don't stop there... Let us go on to....
#6: You finally get you approved mare bred to an approved stallion and still get junk that winds up in a slaughterhouse.
Bingo! Because all the careful planning in the world can't change that breeding is a gamble. By carefully thinking out matings of quality horses, you give yourself better odds of getting a good one, but it's not 100% | |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | I hate when people want to jump on the "backyard breeders" bandwagon and blame it on them. Large breeders with top bloodlines are just as much at fault for the over abundance of horses.
A back yard breeder might cover 20 horses a year. A large breeder will cover that in a couple of days with all frozen semen, embryos, etc and the sheer number of stallions they have standing. Just because a horse is decent doesn't mean we need 200 of them every year.
The UK and other places have the same problem with unwanted and loose horses.
The responsible thing to the is to breed less, regardless of if they're selling like hotcakes. If that means cutting back on your bottom line income then maybe you need to find a way to supplement your income. That would be the responsible thing to do. | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Just curious.....there's always been fluctuations in the number of horses through the years. We've had this same problem in decades past. Has anyone ever done a study on those fluctuations and compared it to what else was going on in the economy & society at the time and the numbers that were being registered? I'm just curious if there's maybe a trending that might offer some insight to a possible solution. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| This is exactly why I don't breed!!! I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this but don't care. Embryo transfer, AI and now cloning are big factor in over breeding. I say do away with embryo transfer and limit the # of foals a stud can sire in one year. I think you can flush up to 4 Embryo a year??? It would not only decrease the # of foals produced but also drive the market back up. It's simple supply and demand. If you have a stallion that produces winning foals and you breed him for 15 years to only 100 mares that's only 1500 foals making the availability of them limited ie more valuable. Same idea with a mare. She can biologically only foal say 15-20 times in her lifetime??? JMO.
I work at a SMALL qh breeding facility (racehorses). They have between 3-8 foals a year race some, sell some. Thankfully, the owners do care about what happens to their babies and broodmares. It's a rarity in this business. There needs to be some regulation from the various associations, not government. Having said all this there is a place for horse slaughter and if we brought it back to the US, it could definitely be regulated to be far more humane than the trip to Mexico
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| iloveequine40 - 2015-02-27 8:21 PM This is exactly why I don't breed!!! I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this but don't care. Embryo transfer, AI and now cloning are big factor in over breeding. I say do away with embryo transfer and limit the # of foals a stud can sire in one year. I think you can flush up to 4 Embryo a year??? It would not only decrease the # of foals produced but also drive the market back up. It's simple supply and demand. If you have a stallion that produces winning foals and you breed him for 15 years to only 100 mares that's only 1500 foals making the availability of them limited ie more valuable. Same idea with a mare. She can biologically only foal say 15-20 times in her lifetime??? JMO. I work at a SMALL qh breeding facility (racehorses). They have between 3-8 foals a year race some, sell some. Thankfully, the owners do care about what happens to their babies and broodmares. It's a rarity in this business. There needs to be some regulation from the various associations, not government. Having said all this there is a place for horse slaughter and if we brought it back to the US, it could definitely be regulated to be far more humane than the trip to Mexico
Good points! | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| When I think "backyard breeder" I think of those who are breeding just for the sake of breeding. People who have a horse "that goes back to Dash for Cash" so they buy up any mare they can get and breed thinking they will make a buck or two selling foals. This to me is irresponsible and ignorant. I don't apply the same thought to someone who breeds their own stock for their own use. Cattle ranches do this. They breed what they have to create horses they will raise and use. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Just because you are a small operation doesn't mean you are a backyard breeder.
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I am a Freak
Posts: 3326
Location: Nowhere Special | There will always be a need for horse slaughter, I wish we could find a way to do it more humanley..
I'd also like to see people take some personal responsability rather then have to be regulated but the fact that there are high dollar stallions out there standing with bad 5 panel tests and people still lining up to breed to a horse with a known genetic disease says that we really can not regulate ourselves.. I wouldn't mind seeing all mares and stallions be required to have a 5 panel and if it is not NEGATIVE all the way, either sterlization and gelding or the papers get pulled.. But a reg will never do that because after all it is how they make their money.. | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | scwebster - 2015-02-27 9:33 PM When I think "backyard breeder" I think of those who are breeding just for the sake of breeding. People who have a horse "that goes back to Dash for Cash" so they buy up any mare they can get and breed thinking they will make a buck or two selling foals. This to me is irresponsible and ignorant. I don't apply the same thought to someone who breeds their own stock for their own use. Cattle ranches do this. They breed what they have to create horses they will raise and use. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Just because you are a small operation doesn't mean you are a backyard breeder.
Even so, as a back yard breeder they are only producing one or two at best a year. Even if you did away with them, it's only a small dent in the problem.
If horses came back to the people that produced them in the first place and THEY had to slaughter them personally, there would be a lot less slaughter but I know that's not going to happen.
I've always said that if the rescues could be in charge of slaughter and manage it sensibly, it would be a win-win . They could choose which horses were truly salvageable and slaughter the ones that had soundness issues, etc that really did need to be put down. They could make sure it was done in a humane manner, and then they could reap the proceeds off of hide, hair, etc to keep the rescue going.
Then they could hold a competition every year with added sponsor money for the horses that came through the rescue and were adopted out. Have all events - pleasure, speed, halter, agility, dressage.
Maybe they could even start a rescue registry similar to a breed registry. People could earn points and work towards a nationals.
People have to have some incentive to stop breeding and start rescuing.
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 Googly Goo
Posts: 7053
| I think there should be regulations on human breeding. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| TXBO - 2015-02-28 10:23 AM
I think there should be regulations on human breeding.
Mandatory birth control with every welfare card.  | |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 9:27 AM No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter.
Not a lot of people are agreeing win you but I do, for the most part. We just need some more common sense, and need to stop breeding unregistered horses, for one. I do see how the larger operations make more of an impact with unwanted horses though. It's just unfortunate that we have so many cheap horses that people buy (because they are cheap) and then they can't afford them and then we have the neglected/rescue horses.
I follow a bunch of tack/swap sites on FB and there's these people saying "my mare isn't registered and I want a buckskin baby but she's gray and what are the chances I'll get a buckskin?!" And it's like --DONT BREED YOUR UNREGISTERED MARE. Buy yourself exactly what you want. I get wanting a baby out if your mare you've had forever--but there are so many horses that need homes as it is. That's my initial take/feelings on the situation. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | I think the breed registries could cap a stallion at 50 mares per year, and charge more for filing the stallion report. There is no need what so ever for a stallion to breed 200 mares a year. I also think the rescues could put some effort into hosting gelding linics, and euth. clinics. The breed reg. should also step to the plate and really get some amazing programs to promote geldings. Money always talks. Earmark a percentage of registration fee's, and breeding report fee's to gelding incentives purses. | |
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boon
Posts: 3
| You are mis informed if you believe only grade horses are sent to slaughter. I've seen at least four registered horses sold to slaughter in the last week. Some of the best horses I've owned was grade. You can't ride papers! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Embryo transfer is not a problem, this costs money to do, and still not enough of an impact to decrease the numbers enough.
The registries AQHA actually has a reduction in registered horses for awhile, this is why they have offered deals/incentives to register the horses.
The registries are a business for profit, so why would they want to impose restrictions that would affect their bottom line.
The breeders are also a business who also put money back into your barrel races, remember that.
Government is the only entity that has the power to regulate, if this happens breeders will not be making a profit, as it will take years to reduce the supply. Therefore less money towards equine events.
Also if breeders have to reduce their foal crops, there will be an abundance of broodmares flood the market, well bred, not broke, or have lameness issues, people can't buy them to breed due to restrictions, therefore they go for slaughter, the one thing you are trying to prevent.
Here are the problems with horses
They are expensive, the bleeding hearts purchase said horses, don't do anything with them, (talking not registered mutts) and they can't trim the feet, they don't actually know how to feed, house, etc. The horse lacks the essentials and start the starvation process.
Horses are a luxury item, when the economy bottoms out, you will see more horses sent to slaughter, more turned out, and more dying of starvation. People will feed their family before their horse. These people can't give the horse away, because all the neighbours have the same problem.
The drought also plays into this, more of the USA is suffering from drought causing hay prices to increase, therefore people cannot afford the feed, the horse is sent to slaughter, turned out of left to starve and die.
Horses life expectancy has drastically increased over the years, I seen a fox trotter was euthanized at 57. An old horse eats more then a young horse as they cannot process the food properly, and an old horse is useless, therefore something has to happen, they are sent to the auction, the farmer gets a little money, and farming/ranching is not a lucrative business so a little money is better then none.
Euthanization costs money, when people cannot afford to feed the horse, they sure can't afford to euthanize it, in addition pay for a backhoe to dig a hole, or pay for the meat truck to pick it up. Why pay money when you can make a little that will help feed your family by taking them to the auction.
I did the math one day and to adequately house a horse funded by the government would cost 10,000 per horse per year. For the horses who are processed in Canada on a yearly basis, if those horses were not processed and put into government protection, it would cost 10 billion per year.
To humanely euthanize and dispose of all the horses instead of processing them, it was in the hundreds of millions each year.
I would rather my taxes stay down, and the money be put towards improving human life.
Sadly there is no answer.
I know the op suggested trainers volunteer their time, trainers cannot afford to volunteer, they are not paid well enough to start.
I do know in Canada the amount of horses sold through an auction, especially foals has actually decreased over the years since the PMU barns closed down, this is solely due to the economy, and this will continue while horse prices are in the toilet.
Just to give an example, my town has a horse sale every month, the next horse sale to the north is over 3 hrs away, nothing to the west, to the south 11/2hrs away, and 2-3 hrs away to the east, quite a large area. There were 15 horses at the sale. In Alberta in the province I believe there is one horse sale per week somewhere, so not that often.
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| Just to be clear, in my original post I didnt make the suggestion that trainers volunteer their time. I was inspired to create this post on account of a trainer who does volunteer. However, I am well aware that most are not in a position to do so. Another reason for this post, to brainstorm other ways to help with the problem.
Some of the things I do as an idividual is donate money when I can to worthy organizations, refrain from breeding, try to provide good training to any horse I offer for sale so that they are desirable and will be wanted at a good home.
I didnt think about the abundance of brood mares that would potentially not have a purpose, good point. There are so many aspects to consider.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Horses are livestock. Many people eat horses all over the world.
While I'm not going to send mine up the road, I don't understand the idea that it's okay to slaughter cows, but not horses. Cows definitely can have personalities and become just as much of a pet as a horse can.
I personally feel slaughter should be returned to the US so that it can humanely regulated as it is in Canada. There is no solution to end the need for slaughter. That idea is just not realistic. | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | Fairweather - 2015-02-27 8:21 PM Just curious.....there's always been fluctuations in the number of horses through the years. We've had this same problem in decades past. Has anyone ever done a study on those fluctuations and compared it to what else was going on in the economy & society at the time and the numbers that were being registered? I'm just curious if there's maybe a trending that might offer some insight to a possible solution.
Yes, there was some type of study or at least article done about 2-3 years ago that I remember of. My brain is not working this morning -- maybe I'll think of where I read it later on today -- but it was in some major horse magazine (might be AQHA) or website. It was done when the economy was going bad and we were just starting to see drought effects/hay shortage. You can probably find it through Google and some like it. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down.
How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half?
Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive.
This is what you are asking of the breeders.
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Veteran
Posts: 291
| Americans are just a bunch of bleeding hearts who haven't faced many hungry days in the last 30 years. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| If breeding regulations were implimented, stallion owners could ask far more in stud fees. And babies would bring much more because there would only be a limited number of each. It wouldnt cut the feet out from under breeders IMO. I am not saying I agree or disagree with regulations, I am merely weiging in on what we would see as a result.
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders.
Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has. | |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Fairweather - 2015-03-02 11:15 AM
cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders.
Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has.
Not sure how I want to respond to this one... | |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has.
The truck driver is still allowed to set his prices wherever he needs to to make a realistic living. He is only allowed to drive so many hours for safety reasons, not to limit his income. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Itsme - 2015-02-27 11:51 AM
Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM
No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter.
Do me a favor and never vote, K thanks.
I think that we should start this with people first.....then the horse/dog/cat problem may correct itself, then we wouldn't feel the need to pass MORE laws.... Stupid people shouldn't breed.......  | |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | scwebster - 2015-03-02 9:56 AM If breeding regulations were implimented, stallion owners could ask far more in stud fees. And babies would bring much more because there would only be a limited number of each. It wouldnt cut the feet out from under breeders IMO. I am not saying I agree or disagree with regulations, I am merely weiging in on what we would see as a result.
And by this quality horses become something that only the wealthy can afford. | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM
Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has.
OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact. | |
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Friendly horse swapper
Posts: 4122
Location: Buffalo, TX | rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:00 PM
Itsme - 2015-02-27 11:51 AM
Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM
No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter.
Do me a favor and never vote, K thanks.
I think that we should start this with people first.....then the horse/dog/cat problem may correct itself, then we wouldn't feel the need to pass MORE laws.... Stupid people shouldn't breed.......
YEAH......finally a post that makes sense.....  | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:06 PM SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has. OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact.
Healthcare is another industry where income has been regulated as well. Medicare has taken a 30% decrease and even if a patient doesn't have Medicare, Medicare reimbursement rules dictate payment rules and rates for all other insurances.
I'm sure there's lots more. | |
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:00 PM Itsme - 2015-02-27 11:51 AM Cowgirl Kat - 2015-02-27 11:27 AM No more back yard breeders! I think we need to better regulate all breeders. I think there should be a rule about proven horses being bred and their offspring. It just needs rules, right now there is none. I feel the same way about people breeding dogs and cats. IF they all had homes then it wouldn't matter. Do me a favor and never vote, K thanks. I think that we should start this with people first.....then the horse/dog/cat problem may correct itself, then we wouldn't feel the need to pass MORE laws.... Stupid people shouldn't breed.......
agree lol | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Of course this discussion made it into my blog....Musings From The Leadrope.
https://qheventer.wordpress.com/ | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1611
Location: bring on the heat, NV | I see no solution... This is such a multi faceted problem and no one group is to blame. I personally believe a lack of education for both horse and owner is a huge contributing factor followed by money. Slaughter is needed period and should be in a USA regulated facility ( providing much needed jobs too). All we can do is be responsible ourselves. I think we could help more on a local level by working with interested parties in hosting gelding, euthanasia, horsemanship, and colt starting clinics for reduced to free if possible fees. That probably won't happen but would help.
Edited by moapajetrider 2015-03-02 2:17 PM
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I also agree with limiting the number of mares a stud can cover. I know that many keep saying you cant discourage or change people... but thats not true. You're right, it may NOT fix the issue or discourage anyone BUT what if it does? Theres the constant complaining on BHW about the horse industry and the low prices. Why not make some type of adjustment. Even if it is small and maybe has no effect. Least someone is trying.
I am not a fan of slaughter but I do recognize its need. I just dont like the extremes of it. I also dont like the lack of regulations. | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | stayceem - 2015-03-02 2:16 PM I also agree with limiting the number of mares a stud can cover. I know that many keep saying you cant discourage or change people... but thats not true. You're right, it may NOT fix the issue or discourage anyone BUT what if it does? Theres the constant complaining on BHW about the horse industry and the low prices. Why not make some type of adjustment. Even if it is small and maybe has no effect. Least someone is trying. I am not a fan of slaughter but I do recognize its need. I just dont like the extremes of it. I also dont like the lack of regulations.
To be a group that touts the need for positive thinking and moving forward we sure have a negative reaction when someone trys to get a discussion going on how to fix something that impact everyone. How much more we could do if the energy wasted on bit$@ and moaning was used instead for brain storming on how to make a difference. Might not fix it but at least try something. Instead of saying why something won't work, offer an alternative.
Edited by Fairweather 2015-03-02 2:37 PM
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | stayceem - 2015-03-02 2:16 PM I also agree with limiting the number of mares a stud can cover. I know that many keep saying you cant discourage or change people... but thats not true. You're right, it may NOT fix the issue or discourage anyone BUT what if it does? Theres the constant complaining on BHW about the horse industry and the low prices. Why not make some type of adjustment. Even if it is small and maybe has no effect. Least someone is trying. I am not a fan of slaughter but I do recognize its need. I just dont like the extremes of it. I also dont like the lack of regulations.
I agree as well.....more "quality" less "quantity" | |
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Expert
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Nicely said! | |
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 Thread Killer
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Well said. I don't think slaughter is an option any more. That ship has sailed. There are a number of options to explore, but most won't consider them. How about we, as horse people, think of ideas and put them into motion? You know, before people who don't know squat about horses and the government do it for us? | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:06 PM
SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM
Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has.
OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact.
My dad was a truck driver for years, yes it is regulated for safety sake, and for the time down required, there are ways around it, such as the down time being at on site jobs.
I did the billing for my dad, when he hauled, prices were increasing drastically, not dropping.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Fairweather - 2015-03-02 1:21 PM
rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:06 PM SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has. OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact.
I'm sure there's lots more.
You are talking apples and oranges here.
By regulating how many horses are produced each year, is like saying a doctor, accountant, lawyer, can only see 20/people a year.
I don't know about your medical system but what you are saying is a form of communism, and if the government gets involved in the horse industry you will see even more. | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 3:24 PM
Fairweather - 2015-03-02 1:21 PM
rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:06 PM SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has. OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact.
I'm sure there's lots more.
You are talking apples and oranges here.
By regulating how many horses are produced each year, is like saying a doctor, accountant, lawyer, can only see 20/people a year.
I don't know about your medical system but what you are saying is a form of communism, and if the government gets involved in the horse industry you will see even more.
Now in my opinion that is apples to oranges. You are comparing medical needs to horse breeding....? I find those to be very different industries.
I also dont think it is reducing their income... it could potentially increase it. If you have a worthy stud with a lot of interest, not only could you increase your stud fee because of high demand, you could also be very selective to which mares you choose to cover. The perfect crosses would be worth big bucks typically and spotlight your stud. I just think so many big names are becoming a dime a dozen. | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 3:19 PM
rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:06 PM
SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM
Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has.
OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact.
My dad was a truck driver for years, yes it is regulated for safety sake, and for the time down required, there are ways around it, such as the down time being at on site jobs.
I did the billing for my dad, when he hauled, prices were increasing drastically, not dropping.
I've personally been in the business for more years than I care to admit, as a driver and more. Hubby has been in it for almost (crap!) 50 years and his dad drove back in the day before interstates. 20 years ago we were hauling for cheaper per mile rates than he did in the 50s. Granted rates are higher than they were 20 years ago, but by no means has the increase in rates kept up with the astronomic raises in fuel, insurance and truck payments.
As an example. in the 80's we were hauling for maybe $1..50 per mile, today I am getting offered freight for LESS THAN $1.00 per mile! (we won't haul for that). In the 80's fuel was maybe 50 cents per gallon, look at today's prices. Our brand new 1981 freightliner was under 40K, today it's closer to 100K for a new truck. Insurance rates, well I can't give you exact figures, but for sure, liability and collision are much higher than the 80s. Then you have the costs for plates, highway use tax, ton mile taxes etc., all which have gone up. If you have drivers, instead of paying them 10 cents a mile it's closer to 40/50 cents per mile. This is NOT considering the things going on in booming oil field areas where everyone is (or was) making money, I am talking OTR stuff here. There is batter paying freight, but when you find it there is always someone willing to cut that rate just to get their foot in the door. Right now, we consider ourselves doing fairly well if we get anything over $2 per mile for all miles traveled, loaded and empty. We have no truck payments, no mortgage and no kids to support. I have no idea how the guys with a new truck and a house payment are making it!
As far as hours of service, it's like the speed limit. Ostensibly it is in place for "safety" but when you don't hold ALL DRIVERS to the same standards, just how much safer does it make our roads? Study after study show that the highest percentages of accidents involving semis are caused by a 4 wheeler.
They are in the process of FORCING trucks to have electronic logs. While I am sure there will be those who will find their way around them, it is going to force the truckers who actually know how to get a load to it's destination in a timely fashion will be forced out of business and the price of everything will go up even more as they will have to hire 3 drivers to compensate for the loss of 2 of the old school drivers. Hours of service AND reduced speed limits do indeed cut the paycheck of a self employed driver.
All of this does have some bearing on the subject at hand. The more regulation, the more it is going to cost the individual to participate in the regulated activity. ANd then the regulation does not necessarily solve the original problem.
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 3:54 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 3:19 PM
rodeoveteran - 2015-03-02 12:06 PM
SaraJean - 2015-03-02 11:58 AM
Fairweather - 2015-03-02 10:15 AM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-02 10:07 AM For those who want to regulate breeders, therefore cutting their profits down. How would you like the government to regulate how much your company produces, by placing a quota cutting your revenue in half? Or the company you work for has to fire you as the government imposed a quota for the business cutting the revenue in half therefore employees have to be let go so the company can survive. This is what you are asking of the breeders. Other businesses are already regulated on how much money they can make.....If you're a truck driver, you're only allowed to drive for so many hours whether you're tired or not. You're limited on how much you can make. The rest of the world doesn't seem to mind that regulation because of the impact it has.
OH I disagree. We don't "Set" prices. We are offered loads at a given rate, then we choose to haul it or not. Hours of Service DO affect our income. The original hours of service were set back when the trucks were underpowered, there were NO interstate highways, or even air conditioning. The rates have DROPPED since then, the prices of trucks, insurance, taxes and fuel have skyrocketed. And yet the hours of service have become MORE regulated. So tell me again how that does affect ones income? It may not be the intent of the law that they tell you about, but believe you me, they know the impact.
My dad was a truck driver for years, yes it is regulated for safety sake, and for the time down required, there are ways around it, such as the down time being at on site jobs.
I did the billing for my dad, when he hauled, prices were increasing drastically, not dropping.
I've personally been in the business for more years than I care to admit, as a driver and more. Hubby has been in it for almost (crap! ) 50 years and his dad drove back in the day before interstates. 20 years ago we were hauling for cheaper per mile rates than he did in the 50s. Granted rates are higher than they were 20 years ago, but by no means has the increase in rates kept up with the astronomic raises in fuel, insurance and truck payments.
As an example. in the 80's we were hauling for maybe $1..50 per mile, today I am getting offered freight for LESS THAN $1.00 per mile! (we won't haul for that ). In the 80's fuel was maybe 50 cents per gallon, look at today's prices. Our brand new 1981 freightliner was under 40K, today it's closer to 100K for a new truck. Insurance rates, well I can't give you exact figures, but for sure, liability and collision are much higher than the 80s. Then you have the costs for plates, highway use tax, ton mile taxes etc., all which have gone up. If you have drivers, instead of paying them 10 cents a mile it's closer to 40/50 cents per mile. This is NOT considering the things going on in booming oil field areas where everyone is (or was ) making money, I am talking OTR stuff here. There is batter paying freight, but when you find it there is always someone willing to cut that rate just to get their foot in the door. Right now, we consider ourselves doing fairly well if we get anything over $2 per mile for all miles traveled, loaded and empty. We have no truck payments, no mortgage and no kids to support. I have no idea how the guys with a new truck and a house payment are making it!
As far as hours of service, it's like the speed limit. Ostensibly it is in place for "safety" but when you don't hold ALL DRIVERS to the same standards, just how much safer does it make our roads? Study after study show that the highest percentages of accidents involving semis are caused by a 4 wheeler.
They are in the process of FORCING trucks to have electronic logs. While I am sure there will be those who will find their way around them, it is going to force the truckers who actually know how to get a load to it's destination in a timely fashion will be forced out of business and the price of everything will go up even more as they will have to hire 3 drivers to compensate for the loss of 2 of the old school drivers. Hours of service AND reduced speed limits do indeed cut the paycheck of a self employed driver.
All of this does have some bearing on the subject at hand. The more regulation, the more it is going to cost the individual to participate in the regulated activity. ANd then the regulation does not necessarily solve the original problem.
And there is your problem you are charging by the mile, my dad charged by the hour and was getting 200/hr for truck and driver with the company supplying fuel.
To comment on what one other person posted that capping the breeding will drive up horse prices, yes and no. Dash at fame, streak of fling, firewater on the rocks, slick by design all the big names who already cap won't really be affected.
The ones affected will be the smaller named stallions, and it could actually run some farms out of horses.
Also remember if there is a cap in place, the few years after the cap the markets will be flooded with culls, what will happen to these horses who are 15 yrs old not broke or only broodmare sound? Horse prices will continue to go down till the market stabilizes and this may take 15-20 yrs of limiting breeding.p
When the small breeders go belly up those horses will also flood the market
Also who is going to dictate what horses should be breeding material, you have so many disciplines, so many breeds,
where will this funding come from?
Also who will be the one to monitor this, will we have to fill out on the government census how any horses we have?
To monitor and change this it will cost billions, loss of revenue also means loss in income tax for the government | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 448
Location: lone star state | Regulation - loss of freedom. Anytime you ask government to regulate you restrict freedom.
As horse owners each and everyone should be responsible. Are we no. All you can do is be responsible yourself and breed for horses that you feel will have value the lifetime of that animal. Illness and injury will occur and as horse owners you have to be good stewards and make good decisions when an animal in your care is no longer usable. Breed associations realize that there is a problem with unwanted horses. Encourage your association to have programs that benefit those unwanted horses. Jockey club has a program to train thorobreds for a life after their racing career. Others should follow suit. Maybe those who serve on boards can or will organize recognition for those efforts to allow an avenue to retrain horses for life after show or race career ends. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 278
Location: Whitney, NE | We are in the process of shipping our hay, large squares, and the LEAST anyone has paid their trucker that I know of is $4.25. If someone here is willing to haul for less than a $1 a mile, you are hired! | |
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | whatadoll - 2015-03-02 7:01 PM We are in the process of shipping our hay, large squares, and the LEAST anyone has paid their trucker that I know of is $4.25. If someone here is willing to haul for less than a $1 a mile, you are hired!
Amen to that! I could actually get hay by the semi load and afford to keep more horses! Maybe even go back to doing rescue! | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| firewaterfuelsme - 2015-03-02 4:55 PM
Regulation - loss of freedom. Anytime you ask government to regulate you restrict freedom.
As horse owners each and everyone should be responsible. Are we no. All you can do is be responsible yourself and breed for horses that you feel will have value the lifetime of that animal. Illness and injury will occur and as horse owners you have to be good stewards and make good decisions when an animal in your care is no longer usable. Breed associations realize that there is a problem with unwanted horses. Encourage your association to have programs that benefit those unwanted horses. Jockey club has a program to train thorobreds for a life after their racing career. Others should follow suit. Maybe those who serve on boards can or will organize recognition for those efforts to allow an avenue to retrain horses for life after show or race career ends.
Please read the proposed regulations... I havent seen anyone state they want the government to regulate.
With that said, the suggestions have been for breed registry's to regulate. I'm gonna tell you now, with as much attention the slaughter plants and starving horse stories are receiving... I wouldnt be surprised to see the government step in. Thats why I think those who are knowledgeable in this area come up with a solution before the government steps in. A group who knows nothing about horses making regulations is going to be a lot worse than if smart horse people brainstormed a few ideas.
Or we can bury our head in the sand, pretend we cant do anything and assume that this will always continue as is and settle for that. | |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | stayceem - 2015-03-03 9:20 AM firewaterfuelsme - 2015-03-02 4:55 PM Regulation - loss of freedom. Anytime you ask government to regulate you restrict freedom. As horse owners each and everyone should be responsible. Are we no. All you can do is be responsible yourself and breed for horses that you feel will have value the lifetime of that animal. Illness and injury will occur and as horse owners you have to be good stewards and make good decisions when an animal in your care is no longer usable. Breed associations realize that there is a problem with unwanted horses. Encourage your association to have programs that benefit those unwanted horses. Jockey club has a program to train thorobreds for a life after their racing career. Others should follow suit. Maybe those who serve on boards can or will organize recognition for those efforts to allow an avenue to retrain horses for life after show or race career ends. Please read the proposed regulations... I havent seen anyone state they want the government to regulate. With that said, the suggestions have been for breed registry's to regulate. I'm gonna tell you now, with as much attention the slaughter plants and starving horse stories are receiving... I wouldnt be surprised to see the government step in. Thats why I think those who are knowledgeable in this area come up with a solution before the government steps in. A group who knows nothing about horses making regulations is going to be a lot worse than if smart horse people brainstormed a few ideas. Or we can bury our head in the sand, pretend we cant do anything and assume that this will always continue as is and settle for that.
Yes someone did suggest the government regulate breeding. All I can say to that is "OH HELL NO!" I don't see how anyone could even suggest it. We need the government to get out of our lives, not get in deeper.
Breed registries don't have the power to regulate much. They do as much as the can. Just like the new 5 Panel disorder testing. People have to test their stallions to register the babies. Some see this as interference in their business. I see it as trying to protect the buyers. AQHA isn't saying they are going to do anything but require testing. The market is going to decide who florishes and who doesn't by BUYERs dictating what they will buy. If buyers won't buy an untested or positive horse, breeders will have to comply by testing or culling positive animals or not sell horses.
Just a little history. Everytime some group decides they don't like something AQHA regulates they sue them. The most recent is the regulation to not allow clones to be registered. AQHA LOSES every single time. The GOVERNMENT won't allow AQHA to govern itself according to the wishes of its membership and what is best for the breed (and horses in general). Their hands are tied. While AQHA had a small victory in appeals court, I'm not aware of a final decision. The people who want to force us to register clones may appeal the appeal, or whatever the courts call it.
So in summary. We need to re-open the slaughter plants or build new ones. One in every region. The real tragedy is the shipping of horses for 1000's of miles. There will always be unwanted horses. Think about all those postive horses we don't want. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | OregonBR - 2015-03-03 11:48 AM stayceem - 2015-03-03 9:20 AM firewaterfuelsme - 2015-03-02 4:55 PM Regulation - loss of freedom. Anytime you ask government to regulate you restrict freedom. As horse owners each and everyone should be responsible. Are we no. All you can do is be responsible yourself and breed for horses that you feel will have value the lifetime of that animal. Illness and injury will occur and as horse owners you have to be good stewards and make good decisions when an animal in your care is no longer usable. Breed associations realize that there is a problem with unwanted horses. Encourage your association to have programs that benefit those unwanted horses. Jockey club has a program to train thorobreds for a life after their racing career. Others should follow suit. Maybe those who serve on boards can or will organize recognition for those efforts to allow an avenue to retrain horses for life after show or race career ends. Please read the proposed regulations... I havent seen anyone state they want the government to regulate. With that said, the suggestions have been for breed registry's to regulate. I'm gonna tell you now, with as much attention the slaughter plants and starving horse stories are receiving... I wouldnt be surprised to see the government step in. Thats why I think those who are knowledgeable in this area come up with a solution before the government steps in. A group who knows nothing about horses making regulations is going to be a lot worse than if smart horse people brainstormed a few ideas. Or we can bury our head in the sand, pretend we cant do anything and assume that this will always continue as is and settle for that.
Breed registries don't have the power to regulate much. They do as much as the can. Just like the new 5 Panel disorder testing. People have to test their stallions to register the babies. Some see this as interference in their business. I see it as trying to protect the buyers. AQHA isn't saying they are going to do anything but require testing. The market is going to decide who florishes and who doesn't by BUYERs dictating what they will buy. If buyers won't buy an untested or positive horse, breeders will have to comply by testing or culling positive animals or not sell horses.
Just a little history. Everytime some group decides they don't like something AQHA regulates they sue them. The most recent is the regulation to not allow clones to be registered. AQHA LOSES every single time. The GOVERNMENT won't allow AQHA to govern itself according to the wishes of its membership and what is best for the breed (and horses in general). Their hands are tied. While AQHA had a small victory in appeals court, I'm not aware of a final decision. The people who want to force us to register clones may appeal the appeal, or whatever the courts call it.
So in summary. We need to re-open the slaughter plants or build new ones. One in every region. The real tragedy is the shipping of horses for 1000's of miles. There will always be unwanted horses. Think about all those postive horses we don't want.
This^ | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| barrelracr131 - 2015-03-03 11:55 AM
OregonBR - 2015-03-03 11:48 AM stayceem - 2015-03-03 9:20 AM firewaterfuelsme - 2015-03-02 4:55 PM Regulation - loss of freedom. Anytime you ask government to regulate you restrict freedom. As horse owners each and everyone should be responsible. Are we no. All you can do is be responsible yourself and breed for horses that you feel will have value the lifetime of that animal. Illness and injury will occur and as horse owners you have to be good stewards and make good decisions when an animal in your care is no longer usable. Breed associations realize that there is a problem with unwanted horses. Encourage your association to have programs that benefit those unwanted horses. Jockey club has a program to train thorobreds for a life after their racing career. Others should follow suit. Maybe those who serve on boards can or will organize recognition for those efforts to allow an avenue to retrain horses for life after show or race career ends. Please read the proposed regulations... I havent seen anyone state they want the government to regulate. With that said, the suggestions have been for breed registry's to regulate. I'm gonna tell you now, with as much attention the slaughter plants and starving horse stories are receiving... I wouldnt be surprised to see the government step in. Thats why I think those who are knowledgeable in this area come up with a solution before the government steps in. A group who knows nothing about horses making regulations is going to be a lot worse than if smart horse people brainstormed a few ideas. Or we can bury our head in the sand, pretend we cant do anything and assume that this will always continue as is and settle for that.
Breed registries don't have the power to regulate much. They do as much as the can. Just like the new 5 Panel disorder testing. People have to test their stallions to register the babies. Some see this as interference in their business. I see it as trying to protect the buyers. AQHA isn't saying they are going to do anything but require testing. The market is going to decide who florishes and who doesn't by BUYERs dictating what they will buy. If buyers won't buy an untested or positive horse, breeders will have to comply by testing or culling positive animals or not sell horses.
Just a little history. Everytime some group decides they don't like something AQHA regulates they sue them. The most recent is the regulation to not allow clones to be registered. AQHA LOSES every single time. The GOVERNMENT won't allow AQHA to govern itself according to the wishes of its membership and what is best for the breed (and horses in general). Their hands are tied. While AQHA had a small victory in appeals court, I'm not aware of a final decision. The people who want to force us to register clones may appeal the appeal, or whatever the courts call it.
So in summary. We need to re-open the slaughter plants or build new ones. One in every region. The real tragedy is the shipping of horses for 1000's of miles. There will always be unwanted horses. Think about all those postive horses we don't want.
What I am saying it with all the attention this issue brings... I wont be surprised if one day the government tries to regulate it... when that day comes do we want to be close minded or do we want to have a valid and realistic proposal or maybe beat them to the punch?
I know that everyone is sue happy... I get that but I also understand what may happen in the future if an adjustment isnt made. | |
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Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | Those that think govement regulation is the answer just google the new regulations on dog breeders! They affect small responsible breeders, more than the puppy mills.
Edited by equussynergy 2015-03-03 2:39 PM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Some things in life don't HAVE a solution that everyone is going to like and frankly there are LOT more important things to be concerned about than horse slaughter being stopped. | |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| OregonBR - 2015-03-03 2:23 PM
Some things in life don't HAVE a solution that everyone is going to like and frankly there are LOT more important things to be concerned about than horse slaughter being stopped.
They have regulated dog breeders, why wouldnt the government regulate horse breeders? All im saying is think about it...... theres a chance that we wont get a say and the carefree attitudes about horse slaughter will effect many if someone who doesnt understand the industry steps in. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| OregonBR - 2015-03-03 2:23 PM Some things in life don't HAVE a solution that everyone is going to like and frankly there are LOT more important things to be concerned about than horse slaughter being stopped.
This post was not created to find a way to "stop" horse slaughter, it was created to discuss (with others who share a concern) possible options to relieve such high numbers going to slaughter. To me producing thousands upon thousands of animals that there is no place for is a problem. People are being irresponsible, simple as that. Some of us here want to be proactive concerning this issue, and dont simply have an "oh well" attitude. | |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Just Plain Lucky - 2015-03-02 3:05 PM Well said. I don't think slaughter is an option any more. That ship has sailed. There are a number of options to explore, but most won't consider them. How about we, as horse people, think of ideas and put them into motion? You know, before people who don't know squat about horses and the government do it for us?
Exactly. | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| equussynergy - 2015-03-02 8:07 PM
whatadoll - 2015-03-02 7:01 PM We are in the process of shipping our hay, large squares, and the LEAST anyone has paid their trucker that I know of is $4.25. If someone here is willing to haul for less than a $1 a mile, you are hired!
Amen to that! I could actually get hay by the semi load and afford to keep more horses! Maybe even go back to doing rescue!
Keep in mind that most freight is run through brokers and the brokers put as much of that $4.25 a mile in their own pocket. They will offer the load out as cheaply as possible (yes, $1 a mile) then grudgingly offer to throw in a few cents more per mile, until they can get someone desperate to either get home or make a payment to take it. Youcan find several different owner operators hauling the same loads for radically different rates. And there is ALWAYS someone willing to cut any givem rate.
We have tried to find customers willing to contract trucks directly but for some reason most want to go through a broker. I don't know if that is to keep one more link in the liability chain, so as to protect themselves if something goes wrong? | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | scwebster - 2015-03-03 1:08 PM OregonBR - 2015-03-03 2:23 PM Some things in life don't HAVE a solution that everyone is going to like and frankly there are LOT more important things to be concerned about than horse slaughter being stopped. This post was not created to find a way to "stop" horse slaughter, it was created to discuss (with others who share a concern) possible options to relieve such high numbers going to slaughter. To me producing thousands upon thousands of animals that there is no place for is a problem. People are being irresponsible, simple as that. Some of us here want to be proactive concerning this issue, and dont simply have an "oh well" attitude.
There is no acceptable solution is what I said. Some people want everyone else to carry the burden no matter how impossible it is. There hasn't been ONE SINGLE advancement made toward stopping or slowing the unneccessary breeding of dogs and cats either. You might be able to legislate that in a town or city but the rest of the country is out of control. Dog & cats are being slaughtered on a daily basis as well. There is NO solution other that what is being done. Stoopid people need to be spayed or neutered as well. | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| As far as the horse slaughter issue...I am a realist enough to know that horse are livestock and people raise livestock for slaughter (I knew of a man around here that raise draft horses for the express purpose of export to Japan for slaughter). The only REAL thing I can do is be responsible with and for my horses and will do everything within my power to keep MY horses from going to the slaughterhouse. On the other hand, I am not in the position to judge anyone else for their decision to either raise, eat or feed their animals ....livestock.
I will do my best to educate anyone I meet on the care and responsibilities that come with owning a horse. I do wish that they we would reopen a slaughter plant here in the US where unwanted, unusable horses can be slaughtered under more humane circumstances than what is going on in Mexico. | |
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 Strong Willed Woman
Posts: 6577
Location: Prosser, WA | The best thing for horses would be if horse slaughter was allowed in the US and if there were plenty of processing facilities. Also if it became an acceptable practice with Americans being horse meat eaters. You just don't hear the amount of stories of abuse about other livestock. It's perfectly acceptable to take cattle to a slaughter facility. So you don't hear of people letting cattle out in the wild to fend for themselves because some idiot feels that is nicer than slaughter. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| OregonBR - 2015-03-03 3:55 PM scwebster - 2015-03-03 1:08 PM OregonBR - 2015-03-03 2:23 PM Some things in life don't HAVE a solution that everyone is going to like and frankly there are LOT more important things to be concerned about than horse slaughter being stopped. This post was not created to find a way to "stop" horse slaughter, it was created to discuss (with others who share a concern) possible options to relieve such high numbers going to slaughter. To me producing thousands upon thousands of animals that there is no place for is a problem. People are being irresponsible, simple as that. Some of us here want to be proactive concerning this issue, and dont simply have an "oh well" attitude.
I agree to that! Lol | |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| kakbarrelracer - 2015-03-03 6:17 PM
The best thing for horses would be if horse slaughter was allowed in the US and if there were plenty of processing facilities. Also if it became an acceptable practice with Americans being horse meat eaters. You just don't hear the amount of stories of abuse about other livestock. It's perfectly acceptable to take cattle to a slaughter facility. So you don't hear of people letting cattle out in the wild to fend for themselves because some idiot feels that is nicer than slaughter.
^^^This exactly!
The Pyramid Lake Tribe in Nevada used to receive "unadoptable" horses from the BLM every fall to butcher. It was their sustenance through the winter and part of their contract with the government. They ate horses for generations.
About a decade ago (I am not exactly sure on the date), some do-gooders put the kabosh on it, they said it was un-necessary and barbaric that the BLM would send an "American Icon" to it's death.
Like it or not, the consumption of horse meat was their culture. Now they have lost yet another piece of their culture and a way to sustain themselves.
Americans need to see cheval in the market.
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 Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | Whiteboy - 2015-02-27 11:47 AM
Slaughter is the solution to overproducing. There are always going to be culls with livestock. If you can't get rid of the culls someone will pick them up at the right price and perpetuate the problem. Even the shelters understand that with dogs and cats. If nobody wants them they are put down. Same thing must exist with horses.
Honestly, I don't agree with the thinking on shelters... most shelter don't even TRY to find these dogs/cats homes... they dont' get them on social media or don't have good hours etc..... our animal shelter has a 95% save rate...since we started marketing our animals and getting the word out, staying open later etc... many of the dogs we get are purebred... there HAS to be a demand for dogs still because otherwise the truth is, no one would BREED them for $$. It's lucrative and that's why people do it because of demand...look at all the puppy mills out there. The only shelters I know putting down dogs left and right are because they are lazy and choose NOT to do the right thing and try to find a family that wants them. I've never found a dog I couldn't find a home for. Just pointing this out from my experience. Horses are a different matter because they are so much more expensive and require a large amount of space. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1432
Location: Never in one place long | Swimmer - 2015-02-27 12:07 PM
Yes let's become communist. Because people should not have the right to breed horses that they paid for and feed unless they have special licenses and schooling from the state and after you have all that licensing Suzy Q and John Doe must approve that the two horses that you own are quality enough to breed for your own private purposes. Ugh. SMH. I hold my tongue very well but I can't stand people that think individuals don't have rights. I don't like backyard breeders at all, but I LOVE that America is a free country and people have the right to do as they please with and on their own property. Let's not change that.
that's the one downfall to a free Country.... many many lives are lost of harmed because of it... too many stupid people allowing harm to come to someone else. I love my freedom too but I'm so tired of the amount of pain and killing to animals that have no rights and people can do as they please to them!! Overbreed them then ship them off, abuse them and not be held accountable besides a slap on the wrist... animals can feel pain just as we can yet we allow it to happen everyday....I don't get it. | |
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Solutions: over producing/slaughter