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 Go For It!
   
Location: Texas |
Taken from the which bit to use thread....
"I'm really surprised that you guys are so focused on the horse in that video... The rider is the first thing I notice. You can't get a good indication of what the horse is, if the rider is out of shape through the entire pattern. (RnR, just ignore this, lol, it's not said to offend you at all)."
I think that this is a huge problem in our industry. If the horse isn't working correctly then it needs to go to the vet and get injected or we need a different bit. It's the first thing people do.
If my horse makes mistakes in a run the absolute first thing I do is wonder what I did, lol. If a horse is sore you will see it WAY before it becomes an issue at the barrels, if you know your horse. That is why it is so important to spend time with them.
We need to be better horsemen. We need to start seeing our own limitations and stop blaming our horses every time something goes wrong. None of us will ever be good enough to stop learning.
Problems don't develop in the barrel pattern, problems develop in our everyday riding. Your horse gets a little pushy when you're loping circles, but you ignore it because they are working good. Then they get a little pushy going down the alley, so you excuse it because they are just wanting to get in the pen. Then they start getting by first barrel just a bit and NOW it's a problem. When in actuality, the problem started when they got a little pushy loping circles. So who has the real issue. It's the rider, not the horse. If we would correct these little issues as they pop up, we would be happier and our horses would be happier too.
Just something to think about. :)
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
 
Location: Florida.. | well said... | |
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Veteran
Posts: 147
| Years ago I thought I just needed a better horse - I finally figured out I needed to be a better rider ... | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Wow, you can really explain things in the right way  | |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas |
If I keep talking about all this stuff online, no one will ever come to one of my clinics, lol. I promise, I have more stuff for the clinics, so come on! 
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 Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | That's 110% the truth and so well said. Unfortunately there is a lot of uneducated riders out there paired up with poorly trained horses. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| Exactly!!! The very 1st thing I look at when I don't feel my horse had a good run is myself!!! Last weekend he made a beautiful, perfect run but didn't clock the way it felt. Watched my video and the 1st thing I noticed was I just sat there. I didn't ask him to run so he high lopes to first and second. He's so big strided it always feels like he's moving but he wasn't hustling bc I didn't ask him to. I was so mad at myself bc he clocked in the 2D with that lazy run | |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | SaraJean - 2015-02-27 7:28 PM That's 110% the truth and so well said. Unfortunately there is a lot of uneducated riders out there paired up with poorly trained horses.
It's always been that way - what has changed is people's attitudes. They want it now, they think they're entitled just because, and due to that they don't want to be educated.
Years ago people ran what they had, did things themselves without knowing anything, and they learned along the way and in the process became decent horsemen. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I'm willing and try to learn as much as I can, but I'm only as good as the resources I have around me. I make it a point to hook up and drive 45 minutes once a week to work with a husband and wife team that have been around for ages. Unfortunately they don't use phones and the Internet like I do so they can only answer my questions when I see them. This is why I started my bit thread today and as I got a little frustrated I quickly humbled my attitude and started to listen to what people had to say. I guess I get defensive because everything i do in my life revolves around wanting to be a better barrel racer.
I have so much fun doing what I'm doing but at the aame time I want to be competitive and win. I work 5 days a week, as most of you do as well, and make it a point to ride every single day after or before work. Whether it's trails, arena work or lessons, I am 100% committed to getting better.
I went through some very dark times in my life and I have found my true passion and purpose of a happy life, which was the horses and being a competitive barrel racer.
I get upset because I see people that let their horses sit in the pasture all week and go to a show and run and do better then me and it's frustrating when I feel like I've worked 100 times harder then them, I know my time wil come and I'll get there. I don't expect instant results; Rome wasn't built in a day.
So anyway, thank you for the ones who were trying to offer me help and open my eyes to MY issue and not my horses "issues"
I hope as the years go by I can post our improvements and someone will be proud of me because sometimes I need that positive reinforcement lol | |
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I am your favorite rash and you know it
Location: Being pushed over the edge, NM |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: USA | RnRJack - 2015-02-27 9:13 PM
I'm willing and try to learn as much as I can, but I'm only as good as the resources I have around me. I make it a point to hook up and drive 45 minutes once a week to work with a husband and wife team that have been around for ages. Unfortunately they don't use phones and the Internet like I do so they can only answer my questions when I see them. This is why I started my bit thread today and as I got a little frustrated I quickly humbled my attitude and started to listen to what people had to say. I guess I get defensive because everything i do in my life revolves around wanting to be a better barrel racer.
I have so much fun doing what I'm doing but at the aame time I want to be competitive and win. I work 5 days a week, as most of you do as well, and make it a point to ride every single day after or before work. Whether it's trails, arena work or lessons, I am 100% committed to getting better.
I went through some very dark times in my life and I have found my true passion and purpose of a happy life, which was the horses and being a competitive barrel racer.
I get upset because I see people that let their horses sit in the pasture all week and go to a show and run and do better then me and it's frustrating when I feel like I've worked 100 times harder then them, I know my time wil come and I'll get there. I don't expect instant results; Rome wasn't built in a day.
So anyway, thank you for the ones who were trying to offer me help and open my eyes to MY issue and not my horses "issues"
I hope as the years go by I can post our improvements and someone will be proud of me because sometimes I need that positive reinforcement lol
Girl I totally understand. It's a hard and humbling sport, especially when you feel like you work hard and take 1 step forward only to take 5 back. Or you do so well in practice and go to a jackpot and it looks like your horse has never seen the pattern in her life. Lol story of my life!! Just keep your head up. You're open to the fact that there's always room for improvement and that in and of itself is commendable. Keep working hard and trying to improve. And definitely keep us updated =) | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Vanessa - 2015-02-27 10:34 PM
so true... I see the Ovaries overlooked so many times..riders just calling them witches when in fact they are for a reason.. They need to LISTEN to their horse..
also if your horse is falling on its face around barrels.. think about where you are ? most likely leaning forward and unbalanced? slamming on the brakes with its face, so many reasons ..but the horse cant stay balanced if your not.. | |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas | RnRJack - 2015-02-27 9:13 PM
I'm willing and try to learn as much as I can, but I'm only as good as the resources I have around me. I make it a point to hook up and drive 45 minutes once a week to work with a husband and wife team that have been around for ages. Unfortunately they don't use phones and the Internet like I do so they can only answer my questions when I see them. This is why I started my bit thread today and as I got a little frustrated I quickly humbled my attitude and started to listen to what people had to say. I guess I get defensive because everything i do in my life revolves around wanting to be a better barrel racer.
I have so much fun doing what I'm doing but at the aame time I want to be competitive and win. I work 5 days a week, as most of you do as well, and make it a point to ride every single day after or before work. Whether it's trails, arena work or lessons, I am 100% committed to getting better.
I went through some very dark times in my life and I have found my true passion and purpose of a happy life, which was the horses and being a competitive barrel racer.
I get upset because I see people that let their horses sit in the pasture all week and go to a show and run and do better then me and it's frustrating when I feel like I've worked 100 times harder then them, I know my time wil come and I'll get there. I don't expect instant results; Rome wasn't built in a day.
So anyway, thank you for the ones who were trying to offer me help and open my eyes to MY issue and not my horses "issues"
I hope as the years go by I can post our improvements and someone will be proud of me because sometimes I need that positive reinforcement lol
I have certainly felt the same way, and so have many others! We are all a work in progress. One step at a time is all we can take. You're going to do great! Just be patient and keep wathing and learning. :)
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| While this may be the case at times, I think most issues are caused from untreated lameness issues. We have more knowledge and tools to diagnose this and when I see an obviously sore horse being worked it kills me. We are continually videoing our horses and watching not only the rider, but the way they travel. It is very obvious when the hocks begin to get ouchy. Now, why would you worry about rider issues, bit issues or even training issues if the horse is uncomfortable in the turn? I do not feel that research supports the use of feed through joint supplements, so I am going to go to the vet and do what it takes to make the horse happy. My bloodlines are very stoic and often do not show pain until they have many more soreness issues from compenstation than the original issue. Therefore, it is up to me, as an owner to watch every step they take to "hear" what they are saying. IF I can find it, I am going to share a video here for everyone to bash. It was taken so we could watch the filly travel even though we knew she was not right and had made several vet visits. She has done everything from tie up to show soreness in her neck. Wobblers was mentioned, as was EPM and PSSM. Lots of testing and a bone scan later, ALL her issues are from her right hock. She was abused as a two year old and ridden way to hard. Now, how will focusing on current rider issue fix "her" issue? I feel as if we have her on the right path at the moment even though it may be a couple of years before she runs. I do not think that there is a one size fits all diagnosis for horses or riders. My first step due to the fact that my kid as a good feel for what is going on and my horses tend to give 110% will always be the vet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEqwZdxS3Ms | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I have to say... I got Lucy in April 2011. Had some really good runs on her, but also a lot of bad ones. We did have our share of vet issues, and she had periods of time off due to injury. I decided to breed her in 2013 and she foaled in 2014.. In the meantime I've been riding other horses the entire time. I also got Bunny who has really UPed my riding because if I was behind her- I would come off the back of her, and if I was in her way she would shake her head mid run. I got back on Lucy in the summer of 2014, and can't believe how much better I ride her. I think a big part of it was she needed a year off, but the bigger part was I have improved so much since I got her in 2011. I don't want to say that I was over mounted, because I don't think I was, but I wasn't as polished as I am now and it's made a huge difference. I don't feel so much like a passenger that lets whatever happen during the run happen, like how I felt in the past. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | my boy runs like crap when he is hurting. when he feels good it don't matter how crappy my seat is these days; he just takes care of business.... | |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas |
REGARDING LAMENESS...
There is a lot of undiagnosed lameness out there for sure. That needs to be a whole new topic, lol. My take is that lameness shows up in so many ways. If you know your horse then you will see it before it becomes an issue in your pattern. I do A LOT of different exercises with my horses and I can say with a great deal of confidence that if they are hurting somewhere, I can feel it.
Here is a good example. My horses can lope a small barrel circle many times, nice and smoothly, without breaking into a trot. My older gelding began pulling on me a bit in those circles and not wanting to hold his body position through the circle. He was popping out of the turn in my flat work. I knew right away something wasn't right. He was out in his withers (maybe he slipped in the pasture or got a little sore after a run), I adjusted him and viola!, back to normal.
Some people may not believe this, but I have only injected a horse one time and it was because I was too impatient to do what I needed to do with her. Which was turn her out. I basically ruined her because I wanted to go run and she was winning. She didn't win for much longer, lol. It was a VERY VALUABLE LESSON, and a mistake I have not made since. I have some nice horses as well has have sold some nice horses that run in the 1d consistently, and they have never been injected (at least not while I owned them). I also keep mine barefoot and don't feed any fancy stuff, just oats, alfalfa and a good probiotic. That said... You do not want to see my preventative maintenance bill, lol. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| grinandbareit - 2015-03-01 12:40 AM
REGARDING LAMENESS...
There is a lot of undiagnosed lameness out there for sure. That needs to be a whole new topic, lol. My take is that lameness shows up in so many ways. If you know your horse then you will see it before it becomes an issue in your pattern. I do A LOT of different exercises with my horses and I can say with a great deal of confidence that if they are hurting somewhere, I can feel it.
Here is a good example. My horses can lope a small barrel circle many times, nice and smoothly, without breaking into a trot. My older gelding began pulling on me a bit in those circles and not wanting to hold his body position through the circle. He was popping out of the turn in my flat work. I knew right away something wasn't right. He was out in his withers (maybe he slipped in the pasture or got a little sore after a run), I adjusted him and viola!, back to normal.
Some people may not believe this, but I have only injected a horse one time and it was because I was too impatient to do what I needed to do with her. Which was turn her out. I basically ruined her because I wanted to go run and she was winning. She didn't win for much longer, lol. It was a VERY VALUABLE LESSON, and a mistake I have not made since. I have some nice horses as well has have sold some nice horses that run in the 1d consistently, and they have never been injected (at least not while I owned them). I also keep mine barefoot and don't feed any fancy stuff, just oats, alfalfa and a good probiotic. That said... You do not want to see my preventative maintenance bill, lol.
I am a pro injection person, if my horses need injections, I give them.
Currently all my horses are young and I haven't had to inject yet.
Your story of injection is one I am guessing was either a misdiagnosis, the wrong medication injected into the joint, or the horse needed to be maintained by injections.
A person also needs to be aware of what is being injected into a joint.
I only do Trimisclinone and HA into any joint, I don't do depo, betamethasone, or corticosteroids as all three have been shown to speed up the deterioration of the joint. Trimisclinone has been shown to actually repair the cartilage in the joint.
I have also done boosters in joints 1 week to a month after and this is to reduce the inflammation from the joint so the HA will work.
I don't inject unless I have to, and my vet does flexion tests, blocks, X-rays prior to injecting, the radiographs need to prove it is needed. Otherwise the search continues for the ailment.
I had a 1d horse who went lame at 6 was diagnosed with osteoarthritis in pastern and coffin in front legs, X-rays to prove. He ran sound on injections till 15 retired sound, pulled out at 18, (different vet actually passed him on flexion tests) still winning and placing for a girl who never rode him before, back in pasture at 19 sound, he is 23 this year in the winter he is a little stiff, has some windpuffs but still refuses to be caught.
My guys arthritis was due to poor farrier, the farrier left his toes too long.
I reflect back on my riding 10 yrs ago and I have learned so much since then on what to look for regarding soundness issues in my horses, most of this has been from speaking to my vet, learning from him and my horses.
I used to do chiro quite a bit, but now hardly at all unless horse has a slip, fall, etc, as since I started treating the lameness issues before the horse became really sore, they don't go out.
So yes when I watch someone else's video, I watch the horses tail, and legs as this will tell me if there are any problems, not sticking the inside leg in a turn, crossfiring when leaving a barrel, wringing tail (during a turn generally more skeletal then reproductive in my experience)
Then I look at the back, shoulder, head position, is the horse free, short, head high, low, is the back round. Is the horse driving the hind end up or are they dumping on their front end.
I also look at what the saddle is doing, does it look like constant contact, or is it flopping around lots?
Then I start looking at the person, where are they rating, what is their seat, legs, and hands doing. And how is the horse responding to this.
When it is my horse and I am re watching the video, yes I look at me first, then at my horse, and sometimes horses don't want to show their owner they are sore, I had one who broke his splint, I seen the bump, pushed on it as hard as I could he never flinched, the vet just touched the area and he flinched, xray confirmed fractured splint.
Also sometimes we are so bias on our own horses or own riding, we can't see the blatant problem, therefore it is a good tool to have someone else look at the horse, or even ride it. | |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| First of all, I won my first buckle at a barrel race in 1959 so I am not new to this game. I have always trained my own horses. The first clinic that I attended was a Lynn McKenzie clinic in 1975. Boy, did I learn a lot. I went to several Josey clinics and several other horsemanship clinics in the late 70's. I have always learned something. I had a riding accident and really needed some help so I attended a Josey clinic last Nov. I really learned a lot at that clinic and it helped me tremendously.
The point here is that everyone can learn from a clinic. Personally I felt it was an investment in myself. There are many good clinicians out there pick one that emphasizes horsemanship. They have clinics allover the US. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Josey clinics are the best, first thing they tell you is to get rid of your whips and Spurs!!!!
Plus you can attend the josey reunion and my trainer won 2d money and my other friend placed and won seniors 2 years in a row!!
I would pay the $300 to do a josey clinic once a month if I could. | |
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 Color My World
Posts: 4940
Location: My perfect world bubble | I switched a couple years ago from barrel racing to eventing and one of the first things I noticed is how fewer vet visits eventers have! And I'm talking at the 4*, FEI, Olympic level. Far fewer injections, supplements, chiropractors, etc. These horses are under arguably more physical stress when you look at Jumping, Dressage and Cross Country and the demands of competing in all 3 at one event. I asked a prominent FEI vet in Louisiana who also treats barrel horses why that was. He said barrel racers run to the vet for everything, always want something injected. He's gotten to where he doesn't even what to treat barrel racer's horses anymore because of the constant requests for injections. I've been on both sides - and I was involved in barrel racing long before vet work became so important and that wasn't the right answer either. Lots of sore horses and blown up horses as a result. But I also think too many excues are made for a horse being "sore" when it doesn't work right. Just like people - horses also have to work through some pain. It's just part of being an athlete. But it's a lot easier to load up and head to the vet then get out there, get ourselves in shape and become better horsemen. | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | In 23 years of warmbloods (dressage and jumpers ) I have had only 2 Horses injected. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I injected my gelding at age 10 after 6 years of barrel racing and only because I tried everything else first, he was hopping on his front end and he always used his hind end, it did seem to fix the problem and I have not injected him since (almost 2 years) he's completely sound.
I had my wrist injected with cortisone because I broke it several times, only once did I do it and i haven't had pain since, I also went to physical therapy and helped my body get stronger. I think we can do the same with our horses. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Paintbrlrcr - 2015-03-01 4:12 PM
I switched a couple years ago from barrel racing to eventing and one of the first things I noticed is how fewer vet visits eventers have! And I'm talking at the 4*, FEI, Olympic level. Far fewer injections, supplements, chiropractors, etc. These horses are under arguably more physical stress when you look at Jumping, Dressage and Cross Country and the demands of competing in all 3 at one event. I asked a prominent FEI vet in Louisiana who also treats barrel horses why that was. He said barrel racers run to the vet for everything, always want something injected. He's gotten to where he doesn't even what to treat barrel racer's horses anymore because of the constant requests for injections. I've been on both sides - and I was involved in barrel racing long before vet work became so important and that wasn't the right answer either. Lots of sore horses and blown up horses as a result. But I also think too many excues are made for a horse being "sore" when it doesn't work right. Just like people - horses also have to work through some pain. It's just part of being an athlete. But it's a lot easier to load up and head to the vet then get out there, get ourselves in shape and become better horsemen.
I agree with this since I have done eventing and hunter jumpers, the only thing I can say is that when running barrels we are teaching a horse to turn in tight circles, something they are not intended to do. We also teach them to use their hind quarters more, when a horse uses 70% of their front end naturally. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | I was having trouble with my 3yo (now 4) last fall picking up the right lead. I had a baby last May, and we rode fairly consistently about 2-3x/wk throughout the summer, but my strength was lopsided. I get that it wasn't a lot of riding, but was regular. Grim was getting heavy in an o-ring snaffle come fall and I was considering a different bit, thinking maybe the o-ring wasn't sensitive enough for increased canter work, and also wondering if he should see the chiro for the right lead.
I ended up giving myself lessons from a dressage trainer for my birthday, and the problems were in my posture. I am so thankful for her eyes to be able to correct my posture to be able to ask Grim correctly - it was all me. I thought I was being careful and I certainly was doing the best I could -- I'm quite open to 'me' being the problem with my horse's performance -- but now I'm a firm believer that there isn't a replacement for another pair of skilled eyes to evaluate my riding and be able to give me feedback for better outcomes.
When I ride correctly, not only does G giving me the correct lead, but he also lopes the nicest circles I could ever ask for and at a beautiful cadence -- I can so feel him working off of his hind end. Also, he became so much more responsive and the need for a different, harsher bit went away.
I'm so thankful for my horse who still tries despite my limitations!
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 Don't Need Sugar Coating
Posts: 1183
Location: AR & OK | Lots of good information in this thread. | |
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 Poor Cracker Girl
Posts: 12150
Location: Feeding mosquitos, FL | The best thing I did for my riding ability was lose some of the extra weight I was carrying and wasn't strong enough to control and buy a reined cow horse colt.
That rotten sucker will tell on me in a second if my body gets crooked or if my weight isn't balanced between my stirrups or if my hands get 1/4" out of place. When I'm right, he's right. When I'm wrong, he's both too broke and not smart enough to compensate and work despite me. Riding him has made me better and more consistent on my other horses. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I read a book on horses and their crookedness written by physiologist specialist in horses and they explain and show you how bad ridding can injure a horse. I believe that is the reason for many of the barrel horses' problems with lameness along with the torque that our sport puts on their joints. There a lot of girls on this site that are knowledgeable and know how important good riding is, but the general population of barrel racers, not at all. This really hit home for me when I realized my horse was drifting to the left at a walk because MY pelvis was out. We were also having lead issues. Fix the saddle fit and he was some better, get myself adjusted and he was back to correct lead/lope departures. My chiro, who is also my daughter,lol, told me to get adjusted when I adjust my horse otherwise I will just cause him to go out again because of my imbalance. This does seem to work for us. | |
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Go For It!
Location: Texas |
I can honestly say that I am constantly working on my riding. I will occassionally tune on a horse for a friend and love riding the horses that come to the clinics. It helps keep me sharp and tuned up. There is only one way to get good at this and that is to do it. If you only ride occassionally during the week, you aren't going to be able to ride like the guy that is doing it everyday on different horses.
The biggest problem I see is that many riders don't know what the right way FEELS like. They believe that their horse IS soft and responsive. Many times I will put them on one of my horses... next time I will have to video their reaction... but they are pretty shocked.
Most of them say things like, Wow! I have some stuff to work on, some can't figure out the buttons because their seat, hands, and timing are so off. These are not green riders, some are seasoned 1d/2d competitors trying to bump it up a hair to the next level.
It doesn't matter what d you're running in or what you inspire to be... a nice horse is a nice horse, and you'll know it the minute you swing your leg over that saddle.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | great thread!!!! | |
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