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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
   
Location: Where I am happiest | " Taking it one step further, Lowrey explains if you are acting in interstate commerce and you have a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more you need a USDOT number.
“A standard Ford F-250 has a curb weight of 6351 lbs. A Featherlite four-horse standard trailer weight is listed at over 5,000 pounds which without saddles, tack, equipment, feed, hay and horses the unladen weight of the combination of vehicles is already in excess of 10,001 pounds,” Lowrey says. “A two-horse Featherlite trailer is listed at 4,000 pounds therefore even pulling an empty two-horse would put you over the 10,001 mark attached to a vehicle similar to an F-250.”
"“If you are a horse trainer and you charge mileage you are ‘for hire.’ If you are an amateur and you can win money like incentive fund or futurity money or if prizes can make your horse worth more money than you are engaged in commerce,”
http://instrideedition.com/2014/09/are-you-legal-transporting-horses-across-state-lines/
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Important phrases to know: "going on a trail ride" and "going to the vet". |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Three 4 Luck - 2015-03-03 8:16 AM Important phrases to know: "going on a trail ride" and "going to the vet".
Just showed this to my husband. He said the same thing. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| Our govt is out of control! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 696
| Three 4 Luck - 2015-03-04 6:16 AM
Important phrases to know: "going on a trail ride" and "going to the vet".
 LOVE THIS!! lol |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
Location: Roping pen | But, the loop hole here in NE, is that if your trailer is titled as an RV, the DOT can go suck an egg.
IF you have farm plates with a livestock trailer (not an RV), within state, and less than 150 miles from home, they can suck the same egg no matter what you can weigh.
IF none of the above, than you have to get caught!!!
I did ask a South Dakota DOT officer about NE truck and trailers in SD and he exact words where---"he has bigger things to do than to pick on ranchers". As far as he knew, west river, they have never picked anyone up for this. |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | ".....acting in interstate commerce ......"
What if you don't go out of state? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1074
| It's getting ridiculous!!!! The IRS wants to tell me it's a hobby, but the DOT tells me I'm in it for the money. REALLY!!!!! |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| barrelrider - 2015-03-03 11:56 AM
It's getting ridiculous!!!! The IRS wants to tell me it's a hobby, but the DOT tells me I'm in it for the money. REALLY!!!!!
THIS - exactly! |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | komet. - 2015-03-03 11:36 AM ".....acting in interstate commerce ......" What if you don't go out of state?
It's state by state but I believe the law is 26,001 to be over if you just drive in-state. I know that is the law in Texas. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Red Raider - 2015-03-03 12:03 PM komet. - 2015-03-03 11:36 AM ".....acting in interstate commerce ......" What if you don't go out of state? It's state by state but I believe the law is 26,001 to be over if you just drive in-state. I know that is the law in Texas.
You also may still need a coggins and health certificate. Depends on the state. |
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations.  |
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Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 12:24 PM I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations.
I wonder if that's part of the new Texas Two-Step thing where they are getting our inspections and registration under one sticker. Thanks for the heads up -- I'll have to get mine done in 2 months. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 333
| applies to commercial use!! If you pay the taxes on your earnings and it's going into your personal account, it's not commercial. It has to be in persuance of a business for tax purposes to be considered commerical.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | Three 4 Luck - 2015-03-03 9:16 AM Important phrases to know: "going on a trail ride" and "going to the vet".
LOL |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | powerstroke power - 2015-03-03 12:54 PM
applies to commercial use!! If you pay the taxes on your earnings and it's going into your personal account, it's not commercial. It has to be in persuance of a business for tax purposes to be considered commerical.
If you have sponsors and have their logos on your trailer, you're considered commercial. I know Mesa Leavitt got slapped with a big fine because of that one. |
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 Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | Trail riding....what the heck is barrel racing?????
We got hit with fines years and years ago.
If I am being told correctly though, it is 26,001 pounds and its FEDERAL, not just state to state. However, states can choose whether or not to enforce it by pulling people over to check. Dont qoute me on that though because every person I ask says something different. Maybe its the CDL that is federal and not the DOT number.
I know here in Missouri, I have to have a CDL, but not a DOT number. However, technically I cannot use my truck and trailer to take the driving test for a CDL because you have to have a CDL to even drive it legally, so I would be breaking the law to get to the test. So to get around that, farm tags. As long as I stay in MO and have farm tags, then I do not have to have a CDL. However, when I cross states lines, I do.
Now Ive been hauling the same rig a number of years without a CDL. Its not that hard nor expensive to get one here so I am just going to do it. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 352
Location: Texas | GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 12:24 PM
I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations.
How do you get your trailer inspected? like a truck? |
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Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | batkitty - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 12:24 PM I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations. How do you get your trailer inspected? like a truck?
Yes, I just got it all done. Took it to my regular truck inspection place and they did it there. They only made sure the lights worked, it took about 10 seconds and cost $7. They give you a receipt which you then take to the tax office to get your tags..... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | Oh lord...I'm glad I left Texas before they instituted those trailer inspections!! They sound like as much of a formality and a joke as the vehicle inspections. The guy I went to used to basically check to see if the wipers worked...the lights...honked the horn and I was outta there with my sticker.
Here in Arkansas they did away with even having the vehicles inspected....AND I have Permanent tags on the trailer. I don't have to even renew tags/registration on it!  |
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | missroselee - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM Trail riding....what the heck is barrel racing?????
We got hit with fines years and years ago.
If I am being told correctly though, it is 26,001 pounds and its FEDERAL, not just state to state. However, states can choose whether or not to enforce it by pulling people over to check. Dont qoute me on that though because every person I ask says something different. Maybe its the CDL that is federal and not the DOT number.
I know here in Missouri, I have to have a CDL, but not a DOT number. However, technically I cannot use my truck and trailer to take the driving test for a CDL because you have to have a CDL to even drive it legally, so I would be breaking the law to get to the test. So to get around that, farm tags. As long as I stay in MO and have farm tags, then I do not have to have a CDL. However, when I cross states lines, I do.
Now Ive been hauling the same rig a number of years without a CDL. Its not that hard nor expensive to get one here so I am just going to do it.
That is what I did. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 352
Location: Texas | GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 2:06 PM
batkitty - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 12:24 PM I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations. How do you get your trailer inspected? like a truck?
Thank you! |
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 "Spaz-tacular"!!
Posts: 20309
Location: Bennett, CO | You better assume if they are asking the questions, they are going to dig a bit...
So you say you are on your way to a trail ride.... You better anticipate the officer googling your name and often times that may show you as entered.. happened to a local girl! |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| dianeguinn - 2015-03-03 1:01 PM
powerstroke power - 2015-03-03 12:54 PM
applies to commercial use!! If you pay the taxes on your earnings and it's going into your personal account, it's not commercial. It has to be in persuance of a business for tax purposes to be considered commerical.
If you have sponsors and have their logos on your trailer, you're considered commercial. I know Mesa Leavitt got slapped with a big fine because of that one.
I was going to bring this up. No farm names, no decals, no sponsor logos or you are just begging to be pulled over for this.
We HAVE a DOT of number for our trucking business, I have a CDL, DOT physical etc, and have no DOT numbers on my pickup, and have zero decals on my truck or little 16 foot stock combo trailer. No silhouettes of barrel racers, no Association stickers in my window....nothing. If they were to stop me I am NOT going to a barrel race or rodeo. I also carry a copy of the FMCSA rulebook in my glovebox with the "...intrastate commerce..." highlighted and the page and paragraph noted on the cover. I did help my friend get a ticket dismissed by sending a letter along with a copy of those pages of the safety manual.
Trust me, if you can avoid it, you do NOT want a DOT number. You give up rights and freedoms if you do. You are agreeing to let them audit the records you are most likely not keeping and massive fines if you do not.
If you can, fly under the radar!
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 2:06 PM batkitty - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 12:24 PM I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations. How do you get your trailer inspected? like a truck?
What place did you take it to? The place across from Wells Fargo? |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| You have no obligation to answer any questions and remember they are always investigating, so any question or "small talk" is to make a case against you if at all possible. |
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"Spaz-tacular"!!
Posts: 20309
Location: Bennett, CO | This is quite the hot topic everywhere... I am hoping to finalise speakers for a workshop that I am hosting thru my job (Im an Extension Agent) and Colorado State Patrol.....
We did this for livestock trailers 5 years ago, and it was well recieved.....this one will be primarily for horse trailers.
anyhow, The head of the Motor Carriers division is a good friend, and will provide the expertise from his office on this subject...
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Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | Nevertooold - 2015-03-03 4:15 PM GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 2:06 PM batkitty - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM GoMistyGo - 2015-03-03 12:24 PM I was trying to get my new tax tags for my trailer today, and was told I had to get it inspected before I could get my tags. Apparently this was the law in Texas already but was not enforced, now they have decided to enforce it. Every day some new rules and regulations. How do you get your trailer inspected? like a truck?
Yes. |
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 Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | In our state (Montana) I think it is 14,000 lbs. or if you are hauling commercial you have to stop at weigh stations, but as far as the other things, as long as you have your brand inspection (not even a coggins or a health certificate if in state) you are good to go. |
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Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | missroselee - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM Trail riding....what the heck is barrel racing?????
We got hit with fines years and years ago.
If I am being told correctly though, it is 26,001 pounds and its FEDERAL, not just state to state. However, states can choose whether or not to enforce it by pulling people over to check. Dont qoute me on that though because every person I ask says something different. Maybe its the CDL that is federal and not the DOT number.
I know here in Missouri, I have to have a CDL, but not a DOT number. However, technically I cannot use my truck and trailer to take the driving test for a CDL because you have to have a CDL to even drive it legally, so I would be breaking the law to get to the test. So to get around that, farm tags. As long as I stay in MO and have farm tags, then I do not have to have a CDL. However, when I cross states lines, I do.
Now Ive been hauling the same rig a number of years without a CDL. Its not that hard nor expensive to get one here so I am just going to do it.
The 10,001/26,001 pound mark are both part of the Federal law and depending on the state, you may have your own state designation marks. When I was prosecuting these types of cases (yes, I have been the "bad" evil government guy on a few of these) it was a pain having to deal and show people where everything originates from and why it's such a huge jump between the two when you cross state lines.
Farm tags can help you with some things but I do also want to caution that I know of 2-3 DOT/State Troopers who purposefully pull over people with farm tags on fancy pickups and horse trailers because they want to check the "story" behind the trip or haul you are going on. Some people in my area farm tag everything to get out of paying more on their tags and some troopers take offense to that and try to catch them violating the farm tag exemption. Not all are like that so this is more of an FYI than anything.
When I've been asked what to do on these things, it's much of what's already been posted: (1) your trip is anything but anything that might even hint at making money = trail riding, taking a horse to the vet, moving a horse to a friend's house for the summer/winter, etc.; (2) take off decals that show you are "making money" at what you do or otherwise have sponsors and (3) keep your truck and rig up on current license and equipment stuff (i.e., tailights and brake lights work) and you will usually slip under the radar. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 333
| Red Raider - 2015-03-04 8:31 AM
missroselee - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM Trail riding....what the heck is barrel racing?????
We got hit with fines years and years ago.
If I am being told correctly though, it is 26,001 pounds and its FEDERAL, not just state to state. However, states can choose whether or not to enforce it by pulling people over to check. Dont qoute me on that though because every person I ask says something different. Maybe its the CDL that is federal and not the DOT number.
I know here in Missouri, I have to have a CDL, but not a DOT number. However, technically I cannot use my truck and trailer to take the driving test for a CDL because you have to have a CDL to even drive it legally, so I would be breaking the law to get to the test. So to get around that, farm tags. As long as I stay in MO and have farm tags, then I do not have to have a CDL. However, when I cross states lines, I do.
Now Ive been hauling the same rig a number of years without a CDL. Its not that hard nor expensive to get one here so I am just going to do it.
The 10,001/26,001 pound mark are both part of the Federal law and depending on the state, you may have your own state designation marks. When I was prosecuting these types of cases (yes, I have been the "bad" evil government guy on a few of these) it was a pain having to deal and show people where everything originates from and why it's such a huge jump between the two when you cross state lines.
Farm tags can help you with some things but I do also want to caution that I know of 2-3 DOT/State Troopers who purposefully pull over people with farm tags on fancy pickups and horse trailers because they want to check the "story" behind the trip or haul you are going on. Some people in my area farm tag everything to get out of paying more on their tags and some troopers take offense to that and try to catch them violating the farm tag exemption. Not all are like that so this is more of an FYI than anything.
When I've been asked what to do on these things, it's much of what's already been posted: (1) your trip is anything but anything that might even hint at making money = trail riding, taking a horse to the vet, moving a horse to a friend's house for the summer/winter, etc.; (2) take off decals that show you are "making money" at what you do or otherwise have sponsors and (3) keep your truck and rig up on current license and equipment stuff (i.e., tailights and brake lights work) and you will usually slip under the radar.
Since you've been on the other side of this stuff..can you clarify the thought behind "making money". If someone makes a small amount (lets say under $5K), and has it as a hobby for tax purposes, meaning they claim no business expenses..but maybe on the hobby tax side of things, do they consider that commerical? Does it have to be in persurance of a business? Meaning they claim all the income and all the expenses for tax purposes.
also, if you weigh over the 26,001 lbs, do the DOT rules apply regardless of hobby vs income?
Also, are trailers considered RV at all and then the DOT rules not apply?
Wish there were consistant answers. |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2015-03-03 2:51 PM missroselee - 2015-03-03 2:00 PM Trail riding....what the heck is barrel racing?????
We got hit with fines years and years ago.
If I am being told correctly though, it is 26,001 pounds and its FEDERAL, not just state to state. However, states can choose whether or not to enforce it by pulling people over to check. Dont qoute me on that though because every person I ask says something different. Maybe its the CDL that is federal and not the DOT number.
I know here in Missouri, I have to have a CDL, but not a DOT number. However, technically I cannot use my truck and trailer to take the driving test for a CDL because you have to have a CDL to even drive it legally, so I would be breaking the law to get to the test. So to get around that, farm tags. As long as I stay in MO and have farm tags, then I do not have to have a CDL. However, when I cross states lines, I do.
Now Ive been hauling the same rig a number of years without a CDL. Its not that hard nor expensive to get one here so I am just going to do it. That is what I did.
Edited by livinonlove&horses 2015-03-04 11:35 AM
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Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | powerstroke power - 2015-03-04 10:06 AMSince you've been on the other side of this stuff..can you clarify the thought behind "making money". If someone makes a small amount (lets say under $5K), and has it as a hobby for tax purposes, meaning they claim no business expenses..but maybe on the hobby tax side of things, do they consider that commerical? Does it have to be in persurance of a business? Meaning they claim all the income and all the expenses for tax purposes.
also, if you weigh over the 26,001 lbs, do the DOT rules apply regardless of hobby vs income?
Also, are trailers considered RV at all and then the DOT rules not apply? Wish there were consistant answers.
When I say "making money", it's a laypersons explanation for the federal code definition of commercial purpose which includes "directly or indirectly in connection with any business or undertaking intended for profit." I never cared how you file stuff on your taxes, how you claim it or whether or not you do at all because that's not the standard. Are you doing something in connection, directly or indirectly, with making any type of profit? Are you going to an event that you have the chance of making money off of due to skill or the equipment use -- even if it's $1.00 or some other type of prize/compensation? If the answer is yes then you are probably subject to the rules regardless what you claim tax-wise or how you want to deduct it. There's nothing in the code or law that I know of saying tax status is the controlling factor to take into consideration.
Rodeo people aren't the only ones who are under the gun for this stuff. If I use my truck to haul two golf carts to a tournament in Oklahoma (which would be about 15 miles from my house in Texas) I'm screwed just as if I had been hauling my horse to a rodeo. If I'm going for charity and have no risk of making any money or receiving any compensation for going = I'm okay. Hence why you see a lot of people lesuirely trail riding at friend's places or just going to play golf at a remote course.
If you are a dealer of a product or in any other type of sales, I'd also make sure you keep that stuff off of your hauling truck (decal-wise) and try not to have it visible in the cab or elsewhere in case you get caught. You might be going somewhere trail riding but if your backseat is stocked full of a product you are selling when you get there, you might wind up with a bunch of tickets for DOT violations if you get a cop who wants to throw the book at you.
If you do get caught by an officer and you can tell that giving further information is not going to help or it's not getting you anywhere, stop talking and wait to talk to the prosecutor and/or judge on the matter. Many cops will follow the law with a black/white mentality on this issue. A proseuctor or judge can be more sympathetic -- especially when these tickets cause you to have to travel again to appear for court. I know that many times we dismissed the charges after educating the person who got ticketed or otherwise took the charges into consideration -- especially if they had a ticket for equipment violation or speeding.
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If you are over 26,001, you are commercial regardless what you do with the vehicle and trailer hobby vs. income-wise. Depending on the vehicle, there may be other regulations/exemptions that I don't know of off the top of my head but once you hit that weight, you need to look into the issue closely.
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I don't know if some states consider horse trailers as RV's and treat them differently under state law. I know of no federal exemption regarding them that would help you under the code that gets most people in trouble. |
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"Spaz-tacular"!!
Posts: 20309
Location: Bennett, CO | Red Raider- Ive gotta say THANK YOU for your insight!
The workshop Im putting together I hope will provide straightforward info, as you presented here... I know folks are looking for ways to skirt the law or get out of the hassle... and I understand that, But I also feel like that people are most empowered when they know and understand the law... If they choose to try to fly under the radar at that point.....at least they KNOW they can get in trouble!
Thank you again, as it is nice to see fact based info, and not just something someone told them |
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Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | gotothewhip - 2015-03-04 12:23 PM Red Raider- Ive gotta say THANK YOU for your insight!
The workshop Im putting together I hope will provide straightforward info, as you presented here... I know folks are looking for ways to skirt the law or get out of the hassle... and I understand that, But I also feel like that people are most empowered when they know and understand the law... If they choose to try to fly under the radar at that point.....at least they KNOW they can get in trouble!
Thank you again, as it is nice to see fact based info, and not just something someone told them
You're welcome. In regards to the workshop, you might want to contact your local prosecutor to see if they would be willing to come and talk on the subject. I know I would have been glad to do if asked because I'd rather have people educated than not. Public speaking isn't that big of a deal for us and it gives an elected the chance to get in front of a group of constituents = always a win and good use of time.
Now that I'm a defense attorney, I don't shy away from trying to help people and honestly, I never did as a prosecutor. Most of my judges and I usually would ask someone over and over "Are you sure you were going to make money there?" with a wink in our eyes to help them out. If they came at us with an attitude, it was easy to have one right back.
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Oh boy. Horse trailers and USDOT.