FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-06 12:33 PM So here I am about to breed my stallion, and wishing I had a nice mare to cross him with of my own... Then a friend contacts me and gives me two of hers!!! The mare I will be breeding this season is a 7 yr old TB with names like Storm Cat, Secretariat , Northern Dancer Native Dancer, Seattle Slew... My stallion has impressive, two eyed jack, doc bar, doc prescription, peepy san, etc he's the offspring of crop outs so the babies will be registered APHA. He is a solid sorrel that is starting to roan out. Here are their names you can find on all breed pedigree... Sonnys Par Tee Bar , and Jojobuttonsandbows.... Questions: What do you think of this cross?Good barrel racing cross? Any advice for first timers? Those that do public breeding do you do contracts? Thanks as always... P.S. If you have a problem with this post please PM me.

LRQHS - 2015-03-06 1:46 PM


 My personal opinion is that I wouldn't breed him to TB's. I think he looks very nice and would try to find a nice QH mare or two. And, if you do public breeding, yes, definitely always make a contract (it protects both of you). Good luck and have fun :)

FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-06 2:53 PM What are types of things in a contract? These are new to me as we only bred our own. My reasoning for the TB is the speed, and height... He's l14.2....I would like to have more versatile prodigy along with the nice QH mares already bred to. Thank you for being nice.

FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-06 12:50 PM First, I didn't when I ask advice, and share the excitement of a new mare... Especially when mares can ? In addition the moderators said I broke no rules, nowhere am I advertising... All I asked getting ideas on crosses, and opinions from other who have been in the business. He has been tested, and has been bred to personal use. Guess we know who flagged... If I was advertising I would have a number and price, all I have said is his name and her name, and advice. That is not breaking any rules. Of course we are all entitled to our own opinions.... be like a duck and let it roll off your back...

FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-06 3:18 PM Yeah I hate having the stero type of Paint, especially with cropouts... This will proll be my only TB, the rest of the mares are QH. Just a slooow process starting up your own herd now that I am not living on the family land with the old mares.. lol

LRQHS - 2015-03-06 3:23 PM


I think the most valuable thing anyone ever told me was to keep it small. Stress quality over quantity. The longer I do this, the more I understand that advise. Even just 5 mares, at one point you can have the stud, those 5 mares bred, their 5 weanlings and their 5 yearlings. That's when you look around and think, man, this is work and insanity. Find one or two, maybe three of the best mares you can afford to start with and continually, try to find a better mare to replace the worst one on your place.  

LRQHS - 2015-03-06 3:23 PM


I think the most valuable thing anyone ever told me was to keep it small. Stress quality over quantity. The longer I do this, the more I understand that advise. Even just 5 mares, at one point you can have the stud, those 5 mares bred, their 5 weanlings and their 5 yearlings. That's when you look around and think, man, this is work and insanity. Find one or two, maybe three of the best mares you can afford to start with and continually, try to find a better mare to replace the worst one on your place.  

FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-06 3:27 PM I guess I don't see where you are coming from... I'm breeding to add speed in the herd, and the mare has some nice babies in barrel futurities now, and the stud is doing exceptional for only 5 shows under his belt. Guess I like my impressive/storm cat lol

OregonBR - 2015-03-06 4:10 PM Just my opinion.  First test your stallion for PSSM1, HYPP, MH for sure. Along with that are 2 other tests (HERDA and GBED) that don't cost any more than the first ones. It's called a 5 panel disorder test.  Animal Genetics is where you can get the test paperwork and send hair with roots to.  



Second he's a solid (I can't see any white that would make him a regular papered APHA) paint, so I wouldn't breed him. If you must breed the pretty pony, get colored mares to breed so you have some chance of getting color.  Trust me, I've been around for MANY years and you will go broke trying to raise solid paint bred horses.  People don't want them.  



Third (this is going to sound mean but sometimes the truth hurts) breeding horses like you are talking about willy nilly is exactly why there are too many horses being produced that NOBODY wants.  Sorry. That's my PSA for the day. If you've been here for a while like you say, you had to know you would get the above response to your post.  Have a great weekend. 

rachellyn80 - 2015-03-06 4:22 PM


Exactly.  Enjoy him, cut him even...  There are SO many horses out there that don't need "speed added to them"...why not just buy one?  Just because they CAN reproduce doesn't mean that they should, this goes for mares as well.

OregonBR - 2015-03-06 4:10 PM

Just my opinion.  First test your stallion for PSSM1, HYPP, MH for sure. Along with that are 2 other tests (HERDA and GBED) that don't cost any more than the first ones. It's called a 5 panel disorder test.  Animal Genetics is where you can get the test paperwork and send hair with roots to.  

Second he's a solid (I can't see any white that would make him a regular papered APHA) paint, so I wouldn't breed him. If you must breed the pretty pony, get colored mares to breed so you have some chance of getting color.  Trust me, I've been around for MANY years and you will go broke trying to raise solid paint bred horses.  People don't want them.  

Third (this is going to sound mean but sometimes the truth hurts) breeding horses like you are talking about willy nilly is exactly why there are too many horses being produced that NOBODY wants.  Sorry. That's my PSA for the day. If you've been here for a while like you say, you had to know you would get the above response to your post.  Have a great weekend. 

komet. - 2015-03-06 3:39 PM


He'd make a nice looking gelding....

Fancie_That_Chrome_ - 2015-03-06 5:13 PM AGREE. STRONGLY agree with all the above. and LRQHS while i ALWAYS ( well usually agree with you) I do have to say if this gal REALLY wanted to prove her SOLID APHA stud. she would need colored APHA mares. Because as Oregon pointed out above, No one buys SOLID paints. and if they do they are NOT for the amount of money a colored one would go for. This is Especially true now because of the PBRIP program for paints. Any of his babies out of QH or TB mares would NOT qualify.

LRQHS - 2015-03-06 5:20 PM


I agree here too. My mindset was getting a BA speedster. You can find them paint wise, but I thought better chances with a quick SLJ or something like that. I totally agree about color too though. This is a tough road to take to try to start a program.

FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-07 12:13 AM He's been doing cutting roping barrels poles. He's doing amazing down here in TXLA, just got home and he took 1st in the 2D tonight with only his 6th time out with 100 in the open. He packing plenty under the hood. He throws roans so far with limited crop. OF COURSE he has been tested we did that when I bought him... I have good friends that have crossed their Paints with thoroughbreds and they have been doing exceptionally well for a long time. IM going to cross these two, yes I have nice QH/Paints booked and some in foal now. Market might not be there but when the foal is winning and the sire then it won't be crazy. I will eventually cross the offspring of this cross with a higher or "designer " line. Right now I'm focusing on a few outside mares and getting him really winning. Everyone that has met him, seen him they wanna breed no matter what he's registered or what the baby looks like(color). I know it's gonna be hard but hell do it and he'll stay intact. Why geld something that is exceptional. I know sounds crazy but yAll will see ;) Thank for all yAlls input positive or not. :-)

FlyinDoveHorses - 2015-03-07 12:13 AM He's been doing cutting roping barrels poles. He's doing amazing down here in TXLA, just got home and he took 1st in the 2D tonight with only his 6th time out with 100 in the open. He packing plenty under the hood. He throws roans so far with limited crop. OF COURSE he has been tested we did that when I bought him... I have good friends that have crossed their Paints with thoroughbreds and they have been doing exceptionally well for a long time. IM going to cross these two, yes I have nice QH/Paints booked and some in foal now. Market might not be there but when the foal is winning and the sire then it won't be crazy. I will eventually cross the offspring of this cross with a higher or "designer " line. Right now I'm focusing on a few outside mares and getting him really winning. Everyone that has met him, seen him they wanna breed no matter what he's registered or what the baby looks like(color). I know it's gonna be hard but hell do it and he'll stay intact. Why geld something that is exceptional. I know sounds crazy but yAll will see ;) Thank for all yAlls input positive or not. :-)

ThreeCorners - 2015-03-08 12:57 PM Sadly, this is so true. I saw on facebook this morning there are 3 nice bred mares going through Eugene Oregon horse auction today.  That is a cheap local horse auction full of kill buyers. These mares, are sired by a direct son of Easy Jet with a SI of 102 and out of a Chicks Deck daughter!! You cant get pedigree like that, that close anymore and the oldest one is 15.  I fear for them going to slaughter.

Southtxponygirl - 2015-03-08 1:07 PM How sad, Sometimes I feel like I need to go to the auction so that I can resuce a few thats going to slaughter, I have the pasture but worried I might go over board, there is just so many out there. Some really nice babys going threw a few years back friend bought one and I tracked down the selling and he gave me the papers to fill out to get him reg. nice baby and some really decent blood going threw him. Pay 60.00 bucks for him.

Jazz's Girl - 2015-03-09 9:33 AM In the TB's defense...... Ive seen the her. She is built like a QH. Big, soggy mare with a great attitude. And Ive seen a few out of her. I believe one is going to be futuritied. So the mare does produce good looking babies.

hotpaints - 2015-03-09 6:34 AM

Let's flip this situation around..........let's say the op's stallion is a mare.......solid sorrel/chestnut APHA paint with the same bloodlines. What stallion would you breed her to that would most compliment her and make her foals marketable??

1st, a paint should have color, breed her to a homozygous tobiano. As it is, all the foals will have to be reg. as breeding stock Paints only unless you get color and "she" will not produce color bred to a QH or TB.

2nd, compliment her conformation.........a larger, leaner, less muscled foal will be more marketable in a variety of disciplines.......a close to 16H tobiano stud with TB looks, big sweeping stride, shorter back, etc. , would work.

3rd, bloodlines.........personally, the bloodlines that would compliment the best would be WP or Halter but a strong race-bred pedigree "might" help sell the foal into a performance home, otherwise, the foals are going to have to get started under saddle and show that they can be marketable as a performance horse. So, it will they will be 3 or 4 years old to advertise. Will  they be able to be priced high enough to invest the time and upkeep until sold??

Just offering another point of view.
 

ThreeCorners - 2015-03-06 2:58 PM I'm not opposed to breeding TB mares at all. Alot of very nice, very successful horses have come from TB mares and we should never forget what Three Bars did for the QH breed. Also, nobody can tell me TB's cant run barrels because I have known a few bang up TB barrel horses. The most recient is Jandee Smart's BCR Stella Bella. She is tuff tuff tuff on that horse and qualified to The American this year. Unfortunatelly tipped a barrel with a 14.9 in the long go. That said, I am not a fan at all with Storm Cat  horses. I didnt look at the pedigree of your mare so I have no clue how far back he is. The further the better as far as I am concerned and honestly, I dont know a single one who has made it in the barrel pen. Maybe someone else knows of one?  Thats not to say she isnt a nice individual herself and she may even be a great producer. She will obviously tell her own story. 



 As far as your stallion goes, he is a BS paint. Not alot of marketability there. He looks like a nice horse, but he is in all honesty not packing alot of selling points for building a breeding program around. There wont be much marketability in his foals unless you make it to the NFR on him or go win The American. He will have to really rattle peoples cage and do it many times to create a demand for his foals. Only because he isnt packing a stacked pedigree by being a direct son of a big name hall of famer type horse and he has no color. No color is great, IF they arent a paint.  I 100% agree with the above though, if you really want to build a breeding program around this horse, then you are going to have to get some colored race mares under him so you at least have a chance at not going broke. It really is darn near impossible to re-invent the wheel. I'm not trying to be harsh, just honest. The horse business is whats harsh.





 

Three*C*Champs - 2015-03-09 11:49 AM I have to correct you here. I heard the announcer at the American say she was a TB as well claimed off the track for the TB makeover by Jandee and her mom. However, I can not find a TB registered as a BCR Stella Bella. Instead I found a 2003 Appendix that did indeed race. Sire was a full TB, however the dam is a daughter of Dash Ta Fame that also goes back to Easy Jet and Rebs Policy. I believe that was a mistake on the announcers part...







 

rachellyn80 - 2015-03-09 11:43 AM If the mare is 7, when did she start having babies?  She has some running in futurities already...supposedly.  Why not breed her to something that would compliment her and produce better than her instead of a "stud" that you're trying to improve on?

della - 2015-03-09 8:59 AM Your first point, a paint HAS to have color is exactly why the paint horses have a pad rap ad being a color breed and inferior to a quarter horse because the breeders focus on color. That stigma i doubt will ever change, I personaly feel theres nothing wrong with a solid paint, and IF and i mean IF the stud had the breeding and build and preformance in the areana and breeding shed that worked with my mare color is the last thing on my mind. It just makes me sad that great mares will get breed down to improve color, even if a nice colored stud is avaible many will skip him for a homozygous one to guarantee color, even if the heterozygous was the better cross.

OregonBR - 2015-03-09 11:12 AM


 If you don't want a COLORED paint (because that's what "paint" means), then buy a quarter horse or a morgan/arab cross. APHA only registers horses that are of APHA, AQHA and TB descent because they are a stock horse type.  They are NOT a breed. They are a color and type. And only a type because they don't want arab, draft or gaited horses in their registry.   They started out pintos because of color only. They've been bred UP for several decades by breeding them to AQHA and TB horses.  That makes them as good in a lot of cases as a quarter horse in performance. BUT they are still a color registry. If people keep breeding solid paints to horses with no chance of getting color back in, they lose the color unless they are crossed back to a colored paint.  Why bother with APHA at all? Just buy a quarter horse.  

Trust me, I don't breed FOR color. But I had a paint mare I grew up riding.  Paints are suppose to have spots.  If you lose the spots you breed back to something with spots. And don't tell me there are no REALLY nice paint studs. There are even some REALLY nice homozygous paint studs. You may have to ship semen from them, but they exist.  For those that think color doesn't matter then why not try for the color of the breed of horse you own?  If you don't get it, nothing lost.    

ThreeCorners - 2015-03-06 4:58 PM

I'm not opposed to breeding TB mares at all. Alot of very nice, very successful horses have come from TB mares and we should never forget what Three Bars did for the QH breed. Also, nobody can tell me TB's cant run barrels because I have known a few bang up TB barrel horses. The most recient is Jandee Smart's BCR Stella Bella. She is tuff tuff tuff on that horse and qualified to The American this year. Unfortunatelly tipped a barrel with a 14.9 in the long go. That said, I am not a fan at all with Storm Cat  horses. I didnt look at the pedigree of your mare so I have no clue how far back he is. The further the better as far as I am concerned and honestly, I dont know a single one who has made it in the barrel pen. Maybe someone else knows of one?  Thats not to say she isnt a nice individual herself and she may even be a great producer. She will obviously tell her own story. 

 As far as your stallion goes, he is a BS paint. Not alot of marketability there. He looks like a nice horse, but he is in all honesty not packing alot of selling points for building a breeding program around. There wont be much marketability in his foals unless you make it to the NFR on him or go win The American. He will have to really rattle peoples cage and do it many times to create a demand for his foals. Only because he isnt packing a stacked pedigree by being a direct son of a big name hall of famer type horse and he has no color. No color is great, IF they arent a paint.  I 100% agree with the above though, if you really want to build a breeding program around this horse, then you are going to have to get some colored race mares under him so you at least have a chance at not going broke. It really is darn near impossible to re-invent the wheel. I'm not trying to be harsh, just honest. The horse business is whats harsh.