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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
   
| Ok.... So I have a mare that I run on lasix. Each spring I send in to the WPRA my annual lasix form signed by my vet showing a rx given by him for my horse.
Sooo it is clear on how lasix is handled incase we are tested. SO my real question is, how the heck do you deal with a horse on ventipulmin, albuterol or dex. I have a colt that has Inflam. airway disease from allergies that I will have to run on lasix and a bronchodilator like albuterol or venti. Then on some days if he is having a harder time I may have to dose him with dex. I know those are prohibitied drugs... or am I wrong? Can you submit an RX form for them signed by your vet like for lasix???
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2015-03-10 1:43 AM
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | I dont know, but I think you are correct. Which I dont like. I just think it should be between vet and owner. Drug test for illegal substances and quit worrying about stuff like this. I was alsontold but dont know if its true...but so far their funding for testing is not available. Does anyone know if that is true? Have there been any tests so far? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Exactly! Geez it's so rediculos!!!! Let's spend that money on getting the ground better or something. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Why is Dex considered bad? Because it's anti-inflammatory? | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Longneck - 2015-03-10 8:37 PM
Why is Dex considered bad? Because it's anti-inflammatory?
Dex can cause founder, can mask other ailments such as torn tendons to get more runs out of a horse.
Dex can also shorten the life span by 10 yrs
Also affects other organs, but I cannot remember how or why.
Every drug we give a horse can impact the horse in a negative way, sadly most vets will not tell you the effects of the drug. | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 8:47 PM Longneck - 2015-03-10 8:37 PM Why is Dex considered bad? Because it's anti-inflammatory? Dex can cause founder, can mask other ailments such as torn tendons to get more runs out of a horse. Dex can also shorten the life span by 10 yrs Also affects other organs, but I cannot remember how or why. Every drug we give a horse can impact the horse in a negative way, sadly most vets will not tell you the effects of the drug.
Thank you! I was running my gelding on 2.5ccs to help his cough, but I'm hoping that once we treat for allergies that can stop. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board.
This whole thing is horrible because I use it to help my horse. Like us people sometimes we need medications. In my horse's instance he is an awesome athletic horse but cursed with allergies certain times of the year... Seriously, it comes down to either the horse is 100% healthy (not even needing drugs to HELP treat health problems per vet NOT to enhance performance) or if the horse has a health issue they are worthless as competitiors becuase you can not treat or maintain them per rx from a vet and compete on them. If people weren't so stupid by abusing the system and NOT have any compassion for their animals this wouldnt be an issue. BUT people suck and it is always about money, so some of them drug their horse to win at the cost of the animal and everyone eles in the business. My gosh, maybe we should have drug tests for people to compete in horse sports... God forbid if people couldn't ride and compete with out their xanax, adderall, ibuprofen, blood pressure meds or broncholdialators...ect. I am all for drug testing, but for drugs to be illegal when they are used with in a therapeutic dose under the vets direct advise, it sucks. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 10:18 PM
SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board.
This whole thing is horrible because I use it to help my horse. Like us people sometimes we need medications. In my horse's instance he is an awesome athletic horse but cursed with allergies certain times of the year... Seriously, it comes down to either the horse is 100% healthy (not even needing drugs to HELP treat health problems per vet NOT to enhance performance) or if the horse has a health issue they are worthless as competitiors becuase you can not treat or maintain them per rx from a vet and compete on them. If people weren't so stupid by abusing the system and NOT have any compassion for their animals this wouldnt be an issue. BUT people suck and it is always about money, so some of them drug their horse to win at the cost of the animal and everyone eles in the business. My gosh, maybe we should have drug tests for people to compete in horse sports... God forbid if people couldn't ride and compete with out their xanax, adderall, ibuprofen, blood pressure meds or broncholdialators...ect. I am all for drug testing, but for drugs to be illegal when they are used with in a therapeutic dose under the vets direct advise, it sucks.
I read your comment, and you are using the drugs for performance reasons if you are continuing to run your horse while on medications.
It is sad that not many vets have a backbone and refuse to perscribe certain drugs knowing the owner will still be using the horse.
I have had horses with respiratory, and broken splints, etc, I have become greatful that my vet educates me about the effects of the drug and the consequences of using the drug while continuing to ride.
Last year I had one develop a respiratory infection, she needed to be flushed, I was told best chance for her to not have any lasting effects was to not ride her indoors this winter, therefore she hasn't been rode in over 6 months. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 10:47 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 10:18 PM SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board. This whole thing is horrible because I use it to help my horse. Like us people sometimes we need medications. In my horse's instance he is an awesome athletic horse but cursed with allergies certain times of the year... Seriously, it comes down to either the horse is 100% healthy (not even needing drugs to HELP treat health problems per vet NOT to enhance performance) or if the horse has a health issue they are worthless as competitiors becuase you can not treat or maintain them per rx from a vet and compete on them. If people weren't so stupid by abusing the system and NOT have any compassion for their animals this wouldnt be an issue. BUT people suck and it is always about money, so some of them drug their horse to win at the cost of the animal and everyone eles in the business. My gosh, maybe we should have drug tests for people to compete in horse sports... God forbid if people couldn't ride and compete with out their xanax, adderall, ibuprofen, blood pressure meds or broncholdialators...ect. I am all for drug testing, but for drugs to be illegal when they are used with in a therapeutic dose under the vets direct advise, it sucks. I read your comment, and you are using the drugs for performance reasons if you are continuing to run your horse while on medications. It is sad that not many vets have a backbone and refuse to perscribe certain drugs knowing the owner will still be using the horse. I have had horses with respiratory, and broken splints, etc, I have become greatful that my vet educates me about the effects of the drug and the consequences of using the drug while continuing to ride. Last year I had one develop a respiratory infection, she needed to be flushed, I was told best chance for her to not have any lasting effects was to not ride her indoors this winter, therefore she hasn't been rode in over 6 months.
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2015-03-10 11:24 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 11:21 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 10:47 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 10:18 PM SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board. This whole thing is horrible because I use it to help my horse. Like us people sometimes we need medications. In my horse's instance he is an awesome athletic horse but cursed with allergies certain times of the year... Seriously, it comes down to either the horse is 100% healthy (not even needing drugs to HELP treat health problems per vet NOT to enhance performance) or if the horse has a health issue they are worthless as competitiors becuase you can not treat or maintain them per rx from a vet and compete on them. If people weren't so stupid by abusing the system and NOT have any compassion for their animals this wouldnt be an issue. BUT people suck and it is always about money, so some of them drug their horse to win at the cost of the animal and everyone eles in the business. My gosh, maybe we should have drug tests for people to compete in horse sports... God forbid if people couldn't ride and compete with out their xanax, adderall, ibuprofen, blood pressure meds or broncholdialators...ect. I am all for drug testing, but for drugs to be illegal when they are used with in a therapeutic dose under the vets direct advise, it sucks. I read your comment, and you are using the drugs for performance reasons if you are continuing to run your horse while on medications. It is sad that not many vets have a backbone and refuse to perscribe certain drugs knowing the owner will still be using the horse. I have had horses with respiratory, and broken splints, etc, I have become greatful that my vet educates me about the effects of the drug and the consequences of using the drug while continuing to ride. Last year I had one develop a respiratory infection, she needed to be flushed, I was told best chance for her to not have any lasting effects was to not ride her indoors this winter, therefore she hasn't been rode in over 6 months. yeah, using them to help him because of his allergies NOT using it just beause as a performance enhancer... So using ventipulmin or albuterol on a horse that needs it due to a DX to help maintian clear airways for running is wrong? using lasix on a horse to help them from bleeding is wrong? using bute when you run after a long trailer ride and sitting in a stall all weekend at a show is wrong?
Lasix I don't know enough about, thankfully I never had a bleeder. Lasix is allowed on the track, and the down side of Lasix is it washes out meds faster, so race track people like bleeders as then they can give performance enhancing drugs closer to race time without testing positive.
Bute after a long weekend, there are more natural antiinflammatories that do not have the adverse effects on the body.
Legend, HA, are great antiinflammatories, these can be used instead, are natural and the only potential side effect is possible infection at injection site. I have used Lubrysin and had great results. More expensive but works just as well.
To help maintain clean airways, this is a management issue, where we haul, how we haul, how we feed can all prevent this.
Allergies, have you had your horse tested? If so what is the allergen? Why not allergy shots (there are some side effects, and I would be discussing and completing my own research on the drugs.)
The drugs you have listed are cheap, and sadly most people go the cheap way versus the right way, again it all comes back to the vet not having a backbone, and not advocating for the horse.
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Member
Posts: 14
| people like to get on their high horse and point fingers as to why they are not winning. yes there are people that abuse it but I don't think everyone does. Test for the illegal stuff. leave bute, banamine, dex, and the rest alone. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 11:51 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 11:21 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 10:47 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 10:18 PM SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board. This whole thing is horrible because I use it to help my horse. Like us people sometimes we need medications. In my horse's instance he is an awesome athletic horse but cursed with allergies certain times of the year... Seriously, it comes down to either the horse is 100% healthy (not even needing drugs to HELP treat health problems per vet NOT to enhance performance) or if the horse has a health issue they are worthless as competitiors becuase you can not treat or maintain them per rx from a vet and compete on them. If people weren't so stupid by abusing the system and NOT have any compassion for their animals this wouldnt be an issue. BUT people suck and it is always about money, so some of them drug their horse to win at the cost of the animal and everyone eles in the business. My gosh, maybe we should have drug tests for people to compete in horse sports... God forbid if people couldn't ride and compete with out their xanax, adderall, ibuprofen, blood pressure meds or broncholdialators...ect. I am all for drug testing, but for drugs to be illegal when they are used with in a therapeutic dose under the vets direct advise, it sucks. I read your comment, and you are using the drugs for performance reasons if you are continuing to run your horse while on medications. It is sad that not many vets have a backbone and refuse to perscribe certain drugs knowing the owner will still be using the horse. I have had horses with respiratory, and broken splints, etc, I have become greatful that my vet educates me about the effects of the drug and the consequences of using the drug while continuing to ride. Last year I had one develop a respiratory infection, she needed to be flushed, I was told best chance for her to not have any lasting effects was to not ride her indoors this winter, therefore she hasn't been rode in over 6 months. yeah, using them to help him because of his allergies NOT using it just beause as a performance enhancer... So using ventipulmin or albuterol on a horse that needs it due to a DX to help maintian clear airways for running is wrong? using lasix on a horse to help them from bleeding is wrong? using bute when you run after a long trailer ride and sitting in a stall all weekend at a show is wrong? Lasix I don't know enough about, thankfully I never had a bleeder. Lasix is allowed on the track, and the down side of Lasix is it washes out meds faster, so race track people like bleeders as then they can give performance enhancing drugs closer to race time without testing positive. Bute after a long weekend, there are more natural antiinflammatories that do not have the adverse effects on the body. Legend, HA, are great antiinflammatories, these can be used instead, are natural and the only potential side effect is possible infection at injection site. I have used Lubrysin and had great results. More expensive but works just as well. To help maintain clean airways, this is a management issue, where we haul, how we haul, how we feed can all prevent this. Allergies, have you had your horse tested? If so what is the allergen? Why not allergy shots (there are some side effects, and I would be discussing and completing my own research on the drugs. ) The drugs you have listed are cheap, and sadly most people go the cheap way versus the right way, again it all comes back to the vet not having a backbone, and not advocating for the horse.
Trust me I've been down the allergy road. My horse has been on allergy shots for over a year and a half. It has help his reaction to bug bites but not much for air way. I have a nebulizer, the whole shabang. I manage his envirnoment extensively... that is the key factor to treating allergies. | |
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| To answer the question that was initially asked, instead of going off topic...they have only tested at a handful of rodeos, like calgary, reno, Houston, Omaha....So in a sense by testing at those select rodeos perhaps they are "leveling the playing field," (just to quote one of the above responses.) Have they done anything about those they found "doping" and I by doping I mean anabolic steroids, no, they have not. They may expand it and continue to test. I think you will be perfectly fine giving what you are giving, I don't think that's exactly what they are testing for (heard that from someone who would know).
As far as your horse goes, you can't change your lasix, and I wouldnt, and I wouldnt care to on a bleeder, ever. But have you tried Tri-Hist granuals for allergies? I've noticed this works better than dex....and for all you nay-Sayers against bute, I haven't noticed anything working better have you? Please give your horse a $94 shot of legend EVERYtime you think he is a little off on the rodeo trail and please tell me your results... I would love to know. :) | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 11:51 PM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 11:21 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-03-10 10:47 PM WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-03-10 10:18 PM SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board. This whole thing is horrible because I use it to help my horse. Like us people sometimes we need medications. In my horse's instance he is an awesome athletic horse but cursed with allergies certain times of the year... Seriously, it comes down to either the horse is 100% healthy (not even needing drugs to HELP treat health problems per vet NOT to enhance performance) or if the horse has a health issue they are worthless as competitiors becuase you can not treat or maintain them per rx from a vet and compete on them. If people weren't so stupid by abusing the system and NOT have any compassion for their animals this wouldnt be an issue. BUT people suck and it is always about money, so some of them drug their horse to win at the cost of the animal and everyone eles in the business. My gosh, maybe we should have drug tests for people to compete in horse sports... God forbid if people couldn't ride and compete with out their xanax, adderall, ibuprofen, blood pressure meds or broncholdialators...ect. I am all for drug testing, but for drugs to be illegal when they are used with in a therapeutic dose under the vets direct advise, it sucks. I read your comment, and you are using the drugs for performance reasons if you are continuing to run your horse while on medications. It is sad that not many vets have a backbone and refuse to perscribe certain drugs knowing the owner will still be using the horse. I have had horses with respiratory, and broken splints, etc, I have become greatful that my vet educates me about the effects of the drug and the consequences of using the drug while continuing to ride. Last year I had one develop a respiratory infection, she needed to be flushed, I was told best chance for her to not have any lasting effects was to not ride her indoors this winter, therefore she hasn't been rode in over 6 months. yeah, using them to help him because of his allergies NOT using it just beause as a performance enhancer... So using ventipulmin or albuterol on a horse that needs it due to a DX to help maintian clear airways for running is wrong? using lasix on a horse to help them from bleeding is wrong? using bute when you run after a long trailer ride and sitting in a stall all weekend at a show is wrong?
Lasix I don't know enough about, thankfully I never had a bleeder. Lasix is allowed on the track, and the down side of Lasix is it washes out meds faster, so race track people like bleeders as then they can give performance enhancing drugs closer to race time without testing positive.
Bute after a long weekend, there are more natural antiinflammatories that do not have the adverse effects on the body.
Legend, HA, are great antiinflammatories, these can be used instead, are natural and the only potential side effect is possible infection at injection site. I have used Lubrysin and had great results. More expensive but works just as well.
To help maintain clean airways, this is a management issue, where we haul, how we haul, how we feed can all prevent this.
Allergies, have you had your horse tested? If so what is the allergen? Why not allergy shots (there are some side effects, and I would be discussing and completing my own research on the drugs. )
The drugs you have listed are cheap, and sadly most people go the cheap way versus the right way, again it all comes back to the vet not having a backbone, and not advocating for the horse.
I have to disagree with your statement about the vets not having backbone. I think sometimes, a vet has to say to themselves "Well, this person has a cap that they can spend toward treating this horse. It may not be my ideal way of treating, but this is going to offer the horse some reprieve and is within the scope of what the owner has/is willing to spend.". I also think that at times, a vet has to know that an owner is going to run a horse either way and that the best that they can do is to offer something to make it less stressful, uncomfortable and harmful for the animal. Sure, a vet can explain the issues to someone until they are blue in the face, give their prognosis, etc..., but they cannot force someone to not run a horse. At that point, the vet has two options, they can either refuse treatment whatsoever, or do what they can to minimize the suffering of the animal who is being put into a bad situation. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| luckygirl04 - 2015-03-11 12:53 AM To answer the question that was initially asked, instead of going off topic...they have only tested at a handful of rodeos, like calgary, reno, Houston, Omaha....So in a sense by testing at those select rodeos perhaps they are "leveling the playing field," (just to quote one of the above responses.) Have they done anything about those they found "doping" and I by doping I mean anabolic steroids, no, they have not. They may expand it and continue to test. I think you will be perfectly fine giving what you are giving, I don't think that's exactly what they are testing for (heard that from someone who would know). As far as your horse goes, you can't change your lasix, and I wouldnt, and I wouldnt care to on a bleeder, ever. But have you tried Tri-Hist granuals for allergies? I've noticed this works better than dex....and for all you nay-Sayers against bute, I haven't noticed anything working better have you? Please give your horse a $94 shot of legend EVERYtime you think he is a little off on the rodeo trail and please tell me your results... I would love to know. :)
Great insight. Thanks! I have just started tri hist. I am trying to start it before pollen season happens, which is coming! | |
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | SC Wrangler - 2015-03-10 9:49 PM It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board.
Not anymore. We are now "zero" tolerance for ventupulmin/clenbuterol. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Has anyone actually ever been tested by WPRA? I have never heard of anyone actually being tested and I'm just curious.
I'm going to edit this to make it more clear: Does anyone personally know anyone tested. I know ppl that ran at one of the above mentioned rodeos and won a check, but were not tested. They did not hear of anyone else there being tested either.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-03-11 7:26 AM
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
Location: In The Land of Cotton | luckygirl04 - 2015-03-11 1:53 AM To answer the question that was initially asked, instead of going off topic...they have only tested at a handful of rodeos, like calgary, reno, Houston, Omaha....So in a sense by testing at those select rodeos perhaps they are "leveling the playing field," (just to quote one of the above responses.) Have they done anything about those they found "doping" and I by doping I mean anabolic steroids, no, they have not. They may expand it and continue to test. I think you will be perfectly fine giving what you are giving, I don't think that's exactly what they are testing for (heard that from someone who would know). As far as your horse goes, you can't change your lasix, and I wouldnt, and I wouldnt care to on a bleeder, ever. But have you tried Tri-Hist granuals for allergies? I've noticed this works better than dex....and for all you nay-Sayers against bute, I haven't noticed anything working better have you? Please give your horse a $94 shot of legend EVERYtime you think he is a little off on the rodeo trail and please tell me your results... I would love to know. :) They tested down in FL too, I know someone who got tested.
Edited by 3canstorun 2015-03-11 7:42 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Legend and ha are not true NSAIDs.
For once in a while, short term relief, Heck yeah I will give equioxx or bute.
Shoot, I took advil when I ran grade school track- should I have been banned? | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Would I love to give a 100 shot everytime I ran? Sure, but let's get realistic folks. | |
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 Go Your Own Way
Posts: 4947
Location: SE KS | JLBerry - 2015-03-11 8:14 AM Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results.
What ingredients in the Oxysilver pretains to it replacing all these 4? Specifically ventipulmin and Legend.?
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| astreakinchic - 2015-03-11 5:19 AM
Has anyone actually ever been tested by WPRA? I have never heard of anyone actually being tested and I'm just curious.
I'm going to edit this to make it more clear: Does anyone personally know anyone tested. I know ppl that ran at one of the above mentioned rodeos and won a check, but were not tested. They did not hear of anyone else there being tested either.
Yes I know of a gal that got tested in reno a few years ago, she was giving venti and never heard anything back. I also know if girls who got tested last year at Houston, and I know the results of that but I'm not going to disclose on the discussion board. And I don't believe they fined anyone.
And yes oxygen makes some great products. But I think that tri Hist wpuld really work good for this horse. And I wouldn't change the lasix one bit. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| The testing does not happen very often. Houston and Calgary have their own people that do it and they fund it. Other rodeos are random, but seem to be "randomly" the bigger ones - Omaha, Reno, Salinas, etc. There were a couple of smaller rodeos they tested but I can't remember which ones. They had a member meeting at Salinas this past year and Carolyn talked about it. Have people been caught using banned drugs? Yes, but not the stuff they want to catch such as Frog juice, etc. I know 1 person that was tested at Salinas the year before last. They were fined and went on about their business. You may receive a fine. But then you can have your vet dispute it to say it was for medicinal purposes, blah blah blah. That has to be done in a relatively short time frame (3-5 days I think), which they are trying to get lengthened so when girls are out on the road they have more time to get in touch with their vet and get the paperwork back in. | |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | JLBerry - 2015-03-12 7:14 AM Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results.
and we no longer have canadian distributors for oxygen...and shipping is unrealistic....
m | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | Dinero10 - 2015-03-11 10:34 AM
JLBerry - 2015-03-11 8:14 AM Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results.
What ingredients in the Oxysilver pretains to it replacing all these 4? Specifically ventipulmin and Legend.?
https://oxyinfo.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&pro... | |
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| mruggles - 2015-03-11 11:16 AM
JLBerry - 2015-03-12 7:14 AM Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results.
and we no longer have canadian distributors for oxygen...and shipping is unrealistic....
m
I gave the O2 this summer and honestly I founc just the price of it unrealistic. I like the product but they need to figure out how to make it more affordable. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 473
| JLBerry - 2015-03-11 9:14 AM
Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results.
I would like to see largely done case studies before they can say it can replace a drug. Drugs are powerful and I don't see how the ingredients in the Oxy-Gen products can actually replace a steroid, or gastroguard, or any of that.
I also believe that a lot of people use the drugs as a performance enhancer and not for what they're intended to be used for. There is a line they have to draw, and it has to be somewhere.
Don't get me wrong, if they expect horses to run 3 days in a row on crap ground, (or 10 for that matter!), yes I agree. Let them use some pain relievers! But rules are rules and there are abusers. The line needs to be somewhere. So many other disciples and organizations drug test. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| SC Wrangler - 2015-03-11 7:49 PM
It seems to me that many barrel racers are all about running horses clean -- until it effects their own program.
The cold hard fact is that these substances are banned by just about every organization with a drug policy. There is a reason.
Ventipulmin/clenbuterol is an powerful drug that is very easy to obtain (RX from vet) that is very widely abused. In addition to being a bronchial dialator it is a long-lasting central nervous stimulator that increases areobic capacity, increases blood pressure, oxygen carrying capacity and has the ability to increase the ratio of muscle mass vs body fat. All reasons it is considered performance enhancing. Albuterol shares many of the same properties. Dex is a problem for a whole different set of reasons.
Go take a look at all the recent coverage of trainers being suspended both by state racing commission and the AQHA because their horses are testing positive for ventipulmin/clenbuterol. This is one of the "legal" drugs that is just a big a problem and maybe even more abused than illegal drugs.
I am sure this is not a popular opinion, but if the field is to be leveled it needs to be leveled across the board.
Problem is they are not using aqhas drug rules they are using fei or usef... Which are more stricke
than aqha | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | For everyone who is bringing up drug regulations in other disciplines.... Do you think that those people are not competing on horses that would benefit greatly from a little pharmaceutical assistance? Let's take 3 Day Eventing, for instance. For anything that is FEI recognized, there are super stringent rules. Basically, they can have absolutely nothing. Those horses ship many hours to get to competitions throughout the country, arriving a day, or two before competition starts. Now, they have been doing a bunch of conditioning work before they get there. Gallop sets, lots of trotting, hill work, etc... Upon arrival, they'll have a light school on non competition days. They then do the Dressage on Friday, Saturday they gallop around for 10 to 12 minutes, jump 25-35 actual jumps and then have to turn around on Sunday and do the Stadium Jumping.
The amount of work that goes into making them "pass" the inspections by the ground jury each day is insane! Horses being iced almost continuously, so that they won't be foot sore in the horse inspection, even though they came off the cross country course walking on egg shells. Massage and Acupuncture therapists make a killing, often working on horses multiple times a day. What happens when a horse is sitting very well in the placings after the Dressage and goes on to jump double clear Cross Country, but catches itself on the last fence in a way that causes it to break open the skin at it's coronet band? The horse is technically sound. It does jog badly though, as the skin stretches further apart and stings with pain every time the foot touches the ground. Now you have a horse who would be sound enough to pass inspection if only it received a couple of stitches. The horse has a very good chance of winning, what to do? How many men does it take to hold down a 16.3 HH Irish Sport Horse so that it can be given stitches without having been given a local? I've seen it happen and in that particular horse's case, it was 4. One person holding the other hind leg off of the ground, one holding the twitch, another twisting it's right ear to the point that I thought it was going to be ripped off and finally, the man with the lip chain.
Yes, there are other sports and associations which have rules against drug usage. My question is... Are those horses any better off for it? | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@%&# stirrer and Saint | WrapSnap - 2015-03-11 11:26 PM
For everyone who is bringing up drug regulations in other disciplines.... Do you think that those people are not competing on horses that would benefit greatly from a little pharmaceutical assistance? Let's take 3 Day Eventing, for instance. For anything that is FEI recognized, there are super stringent rules. Basically, they can have absolutely nothing. Those horses ship many hours to get to competitions throughout the country, arriving a day, or two before competition starts. Now, they have been doing a bunch of conditioning work before they get there. Gallop sets, lots of trotting, hill work, etc... Upon arrival, they'll have a light school on non competition days. They then do the Dressage on Friday, Saturday they gallop around for 10 to 12 minutes, jump 25-35 actual jumps and then have to turn around on Sunday and do the Stadium Jumping.
The amount of work that goes into making them "pass" the inspections by the ground jury each day is insane! Horses being iced almost continuously, so that they won't be foot sore in the horse inspection, even though they came off the cross country course walking on egg shells. Massage and Acupuncture therapists make a killing, often working on horses multiple times a day. What happens when a horse is sitting very well in the placings after the Dressage and goes on to jump double clear Cross Country, but catches itself on the last fence in a way that causes it to break open the skin at it's coronet band? The horse is technically sound. It does jog badly though, as the skin stretches further apart and stings with pain every time the foot touches the ground. Now you have a horse who would be sound enough to pass inspection if only it received a couple of stitches. The horse has a very good chance of winning, what to do? How many men does it take to hold down a 16.3 HH Irish Sport Horse so that it can be given stitches without having been given a local? I've seen it happen and in that particular horse's case, it was 4. One person holding the other hind leg off of the ground, one holding the twitch, another twisting it's right ear to the point that I thought it was going to be ripped off and finally, the man with the lip chain.
Yes, there are other sports and associations which have rules against drug usage. My question is... Are those horses any better off for it?
Nope! | |
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| I totally agree with what you are saying!!!:) ^^
Edited by luckygirl04 2015-03-12 1:51 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | luckygirl04 - 2015-03-11 6:54 PM
mruggles - 2015-03-11 11:16 AM
JLBerry - 2015-03-12 7:14 AM Not to hi-jack the thread but....Oxy-Gen makes pre-race pastes that are natural substitutes for all of the drugs being described here. OxyO2 replaces ventipulmin. OxySilver is a 4 in 1 paste that replaces ventipulmin, dex, gastrogard and legend. I have been using these in place of the drugs in WPRA and have had great results.
and we no longer have canadian distributors for oxygen...and shipping is unrealistic....
m
I gave the O2 this summer and honestly I founc just the price of it unrealistic. I like the product but they need to figure out how to make it more affordable.
It's cheaper than ventipulmin.....and if it helps my horse breath better, I don't care how much it costs! lol | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | WrapSnap - 2015-03-11 11:26 PM For everyone who is bringing up drug regulations in other disciplines.... Do you think that those people are not competing on horses that would benefit greatly from a little pharmaceutical assistance? Let's take 3 Day Eventing, for instance. For anything that is FEI recognized, there are super stringent rules. Basically, they can have absolutely nothing. Those horses ship many hours to get to competitions throughout the country, arriving a day, or two before competition starts. Now, they have been doing a bunch of conditioning work before they get there. Gallop sets, lots of trotting, hill work, etc... Upon arrival, they'll have a light school on non competition days. They then do the Dressage on Friday, Saturday they gallop around for 10 to 12 minutes, jump 25-35 actual jumps and then have to turn around on Sunday and do the Stadium Jumping. The amount of work that goes into making them "pass" the inspections by the ground jury each day is insane! Horses being iced almost continuously, so that they won't be foot sore in the horse inspection, even though they came off the cross country course walking on egg shells. Massage and Acupuncture therapists make a killing, often working on horses multiple times a day. What happens when a horse is sitting very well in the placings after the Dressage and goes on to jump double clear Cross Country, but catches itself on the last fence in a way that causes it to break open the skin at it's coronet band? The horse is technically sound. It does jog badly though, as the skin stretches further apart and stings with pain every time the foot touches the ground. Now you have a horse who would be sound enough to pass inspection if only it received a couple of stitches. The horse has a very good chance of winning, what to do? How many men does it take to hold down a 16.3 HH Irish Sport Horse so that it can be given stitches without having been given a local? I've seen it happen and in that particular horse's case, it was 4. One person holding the other hind leg off of the ground, one holding the twitch, another twisting it's right ear to the point that I thought it was going to be ripped off and finally, the man with the lip chain. Yes, there are other sports and associations which have rules against drug usage. My question is... Are those horses any better off for it?
Yep.
Also, folks will get "creative" because some substances will not show up on a test... Like magnesium IV... Or others | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Okay my take on NSAIDs and Dex- I AGREE with testing for these substances. I don't think they are "performance enhancing" although they do relieve aches and pains. I don't think you will make a 3D horse a 1D horse by running on bute.. but I don't think a lot of performance enhancing drugs do that either. The reason why I AGREE with testing for NSAIDs and Dex is because they aren't candy, they aren't harmless. If you give too much, or if you mix NSAIDs, you run the risk- a GOOD risk, of causing GI ulcers and kidney damage. Previcox is good because its more COX2 specific but there are adverse effects even with that drug. I think a lot of us think it's no big deal to put a scoop of bute in their feed, and maybe day of pop 10cc banamine in.. well when you combine NSAIDs you drastically increase the risk of ulceration and renal papillary necrosis. Oh and then we think sure lets rub some surpass on their hocks while we are at it...
And while I am at it- NSAIDS ARE NOT ILLEGAL!!! THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL. I repeat- YOU CAN RUN BUTE. You just have to:
*FOLLOW THE LABEL DOSE
*give it within the time frame mentioned
*don't mix and give multiple NSAIDs at once
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| casualdust07 - 2015-03-12 10:29 AM
Okay my take on NSAIDs and Dex- I AGREE with testing for these substances. I don't think they are "performance enhancing" although they do relieve aches and pains. I don't think you will make a 3D horse a 1D horse by running on bute.. but I don't think a lot of performance enhancing drugs do that either. The reason why I AGREE with testing for NSAIDs and Dex is because they aren't candy, they aren't harmless. If you give too much, or if you mix NSAIDs, you run the risk- a GOOD risk, of causing GI ulcers and kidney damage. Previcox is good because its more COX2 specific but there are adverse effects even with that drug. I think a lot of us think it's no big deal to put a scoop of bute in their feed, and maybe day of pop 10cc banamine in.. well when you combine NSAIDs you drastically increase the risk of ulceration and renal papillary necrosis. Oh and then we think sure lets rub some surpass on their hocks while we are at it...
And while I am at it- NSAIDS ARE NOT ILLEGAL!!! THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL. I repeat- YOU CAN RUN BUTE. You just have to:
*FOLLOW THE LABEL DOSE
*give it within the time frame mentioned
*don't mix and give multiple NSAIDs at once
You can definitely keep a 1D horse a 1D horse by giving them tho....
If they run hard and use themselves they will get sore bottom line, it will happen, there is no such thing as 100% sound. The term 100% sound does not exist. No they do not enhance like a steroid, they are masking drugs. Masking drugs allow the horse to run when he's sore. Most of the heavier drugs barrel racers use mask the pain.
It all depends on what you consider ethical. Everyone's ethics are different. Most people don't pay attention to why some horses "go away" and come back. You can either run them and medicate them or you can turn them out to rest and heal, those are your two options. Unfortunately most people choose to run and "mask."
Most people don't understand that 90% of those horses are NOT being loaded to be hyped up, they are being "masked" to run without pain to win. The steroids and stimulates given really won't make a turd out run one with heart. BUT you sure can keep one with heart winning by masking.
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 Expert
Posts: 5290
| astreakinchic - 2015-03-12 7:47 AM
casualdust07 - 2015-03-12 10:29 AM
Okay my take on NSAIDs and Dex- I AGREE with testing for these substances. I don't think they are "performance enhancing" although they do relieve aches and pains. I don't think you will make a 3D horse a 1D horse by running on bute.. but I don't think a lot of performance enhancing drugs do that either. The reason why I AGREE with testing for NSAIDs and Dex is because they aren't candy, they aren't harmless. If you give too much, or if you mix NSAIDs, you run the risk- a GOOD risk, of causing GI ulcers and kidney damage. Previcox is good because its more COX2 specific but there are adverse effects even with that drug. I think a lot of us think it's no big deal to put a scoop of bute in their feed, and maybe day of pop 10cc banamine in.. well when you combine NSAIDs you drastically increase the risk of ulceration and renal papillary necrosis. Oh and then we think sure lets rub some surpass on their hocks while we are at it...
And while I am at it- NSAIDS ARE NOT ILLEGAL!!! THEY ARE NOT ILLEGAL. I repeat- YOU CAN RUN BUTE. You just have to:
*FOLLOW THE LABEL DOSE
*give it within the time frame mentioned
*don't mix and give multiple NSAIDs at once
You can definitely keep a 1D horse a 1D horse by giving them tho....
If they run hard and use themselves they will get sore bottom line, it will happen, there is no such thing as 100% sound. The term 100% sound does not exist. No they do not enhance like a steroid, they are masking drugs. Masking drugs allow the horse to run when he's sore. Most of the heavier drugs barrel racers use mask the pain.
It all depends on what you consider ethical. Everyone's ethics are different. Most people don't pay attention to why some horses "go away" and come back. You can either run them and medicate them or you can turn them out to rest and heal, those are your two options. Unfortunately most people choose to run and "mask."
Most people don't understand that 90% of those horses are NOT being loaded to be hyped up, they are being "masked" to run without pain to win. The steroids and stimulates given really won't make a turd out run one with heart. BUT you sure can keep one with heart winning by masking.
Absolutely agree, and I get flamed, but I think there should be no testing at all. | |
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WPRA and albuterol, ventipulmin and dex