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Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?
FlyingHigh1454
Reg. Oct 2013
Posted 2015-03-12 10:54 AM
Subject: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Elite Veteran


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We have plans to get her to the vet soon, but just thought I would ask since the rumor going around that it's making dogs sick.

We have a 6 year old miniature pinscher female who was a bit over weight (20lbs give or take, medium sized min pin), but this past week she has lost 10 lbs and now is getting ribby. She has started peeing in her sleep and vomiting when she eats anything, and she is no longer fighting with our other female for attention, she just lays around. No fever, good capillary refill, and not dehydrated.


Could it be the dog food causing this? We have always fed them this and we've never had a problem, and nothing looks wrong with the food.

Please no rude comments.
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hoofs_in_motion
Reg. Apr 2011
Posted 2015-03-12 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Undercover Amish Mafia Member


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yes....STOP feeding it.  
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hoofs_in_motion
Reg. Apr 2011
Posted 2015-03-12 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Undercover Amish Mafia Member


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http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/beneful.asp  
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Griz
Reg. Sep 2003
Posted 2015-03-12 10:59 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Industrial Srength Barrel Racer


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I stopped the instant the news came out. Threw out a half a bag of it.
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FlyingHigh1454
Reg. Oct 2013
Posted 2015-03-12 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


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What would be a good food to switch them to? Do I just switch?
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imturnin3
Reg. Apr 2010
Posted 2015-03-12 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Extreme Veteran


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Location: Lost in the swamps
Not a rumor! It is true! I had problems with both my jack Russell's.about 3-4 years ago Both were vomiting, loose bright green stools, licking- paw chewing, redness around the muzzle an belly. Loosing weight drastically! Vet told me to stop feeding it immediately! She has seen more cases if intestinal and skin issues with this food than any other cases she has seen!
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hoofs_in_motion
Reg. Apr 2011
Posted 2015-03-12 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Undercover Amish Mafia Member


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Location: Kansas
I feed science diet to the cats and dogs. I love the way it makes them look and their coats are soft and shiney with it. It's a bit pricey (my grandmother retired from hills, so big discount on food though). Or you can look at heading to the pet store and speaking with someone who can recommend something for your dog.

Also, get her to the vet now. one of they symptoms of the poisoning was lack of control of bodily functions...she really needs to be seen. Please 
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FlyingJT
Reg. Jan 2014
Posted 2015-03-12 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Expert


Posts: 1857
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Diamond Naturals. Or go to Dog Food Advisor and you can look at how all the dog foods are rated.
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FlyingHigh1454
Reg. Oct 2013
Posted 2015-03-12 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Elite Veteran


Posts: 1131
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My other female has been chewing herself to pieces, her skin is dry, so that could be from beneful too.


Ok, so great, going to walmart as soon as I get out of school, and will be calling the vet after school.
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horsegirl
Reg. Feb 2004
Posted 2015-03-12 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



The One


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Generally speaking, any dog food you can buy at the grocery store is junk. Some people are ok with that. I prefer higher quality brands with higher quality ingredients. I feed Blue Buffalo Wilderness. 
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Nateracer
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Miss Laundry Misshap


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FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-03-12 11:07 AM My other female has been chewing herself to pieces, her skin is dry, so that could be from beneful too. Ok, so great, going to walmart as soon as I get out of school, and will be calling the vet after school.

I would stay away from Walmart dog food.  All of it, unless it's the higher priced name brand stuff like ProPlan or Science Diet.  I don't even know what our Walmart carries because we buy ours from a company that makes it themselves.     
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cruise
Reg. Apr 2005
Posted 2015-03-12 11:26 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Knowledge is Power


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Location: wherever my daughter's running
YES - stop feeding Beneful immediately.  Take your dog to the vet asap and tell them you were feeding Beneful.  My daughter works for a vet and their office had a long discussion about this last week - freaked her out. My other daughter and her husband fed Beneful until she called them last week.  They switched that day. 

Edited by cruise 2015-03-12 11:29 AM
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rodeomom3
Reg. Dec 2007
Posted 2015-03-12 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Shelter Dog Lover


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horsegirl - 2015-03-12 11:11 AM Generally speaking, any dog food you can buy at the grocery store is junk. Some people are ok with that. I prefer higher quality brands with higher quality ingredients. I feed Blue Buffalo Wilderness. 

Ditto, go to your feed store, altough will sell the  junk food too, they usually  will have some better choices. 
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RunNbarrels
Reg. Nov 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Elite Veteran


Posts: 975
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Location: The barn...where else? SW Missouri
I feed Nutri Source and love it. A little more expensive, but what it does for your pets is awesome.
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mruggles
Reg. Oct 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Good Grief!


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horsegirl - 2015-03-13 10:11 AM Generally speaking, any dog food you can buy at the grocery store is junk. Some people are ok with that. I prefer higher quality brands with higher quality ingredients. I feed Blue Buffalo Wilderness. 

i switched to blue as well..the grain free one....and while it hurts my pocket book its 100% better for the dogs....

m
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suzy2qtee
Reg. Jan 2012
Posted 2015-03-12 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Military family

Playing the Waiting Game


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FlyingJT - 2015-03-12 11:07 AM Diamond Naturals. Or go to Dog Food Advisor and you can look at how all the dog foods are rated.

This and is at tractor supply... I like it because they also have for small breed dogs. My little poodle has trouble with the bigger pieces...  
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FlyingHigh1454
Reg. Oct 2013
Posted 2015-03-12 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Elite Veteran


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I need something that isn't poisoning them and we live in a very small town. So I'll look into what we have here in town, food wise, because all we have is walmart and orschelns.
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FloridaPriss
Reg. Oct 2011
Posted 2015-03-12 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?





100100
Location: Central Florida
Diamond Naturals is the way to go. My dogs have never looked better and they love it.
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tracies
Reg. Jan 2010
Posted 2015-03-12 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Expert


Posts: 1280
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Location: Texas
This is a great website http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/brand
And as a result of my dog having seizures, and reading a lot of ingredient lists, I now feed a brand called "4 Health" that I buy at TSC. I also cook my own snacks- pork neck bones - for my dogs. Most of the packaged dog bones are poison!
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Nateracer
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Miss Laundry Misshap


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FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-03-12 12:00 PM I need something that isn't poisoning them and we live in a very small town. So I'll look into what we have here in town, food wise, because all we have is walmart and orschelns.

Go to Orschelns.  Diamond Dog food is a good one.
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FlyingHigh1454
Reg. Oct 2013
Posted 2015-03-12 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Elite Veteran


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Our Orshelns carries Blue Buffalo, so I'll go and get some of that. Thanks guys.
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Karlaw
Reg. Jul 2011
Posted 2015-03-12 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Cat Collector


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I was also feeding my pitbull beneful, after the news came out I switched her to sensative stomach eagle pec or eagle pack i forget. Either way she slowed down on how much food she was eating, she is gaining weight like crazy and her personality has changed.
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classicpotatochip
Reg. Mar 2011
Posted 2015-03-12 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Owner of a ratting catting machine


Posts: 2258
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Blue Buffalo is the only way to fly.
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BBKitamanCutter
Reg. Dec 2005
Posted 2015-03-12 12:32 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Northern Exposure


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With out a doubt it could be the food.

I actually had my dogs get sick on blue buffalo and I'd been feeding it for a year.

I don't know if it was a bad bag or what, But I will not feed it again. 
 
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CYA Ranch
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Military family

More bootie than waist!


Posts: 18425
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Location: Riding Crackhead.
what did your vet say when he/she looked at the dog?
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Bibliafarm
Reg. Jul 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Military family

Warmblood with Wings


Posts: 27846
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Location: Florida..
Blue Buffalo or Merrick is good feed..its expensive but worth it .Natures Variety Instinct Limited ingredients grain free is great to.
Hope you got good news from vet..  


Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-03-12 2:42 PM
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brlracerchick
Reg. Jun 2010
Posted 2015-03-12 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Thick and Wavy


Posts: 6102
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I'm switching mine to this after I finish this bag. I've never had a problem feeding beneful but am switching to be safe.

 
http://www.canidae.com/
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cow pie
Reg. Nov 2009
Posted 2015-03-12 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Military family

Sock eating dog owner


Posts: 4553
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Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah
IAMES is a very good dog food. You won't pick up a whole lot out in the yard.
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winwillows
Reg. Jul 2013
Posted 2015-03-12 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Expert


Posts: 1694
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Location: Willows, CA
If you are in our market area, we make a Non-GMO coconut inclusion dog food that works really well on sensitive dogs. Renew Gold Balance. It is available on the West Coast, Arizona and Texas at this time. If you are interested just PM me.
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Katie's
Reg. Dec 2004
Posted 2015-03-12 5:21 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Stinky Cat Owner


Posts: 4097
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Location: Oregon
winwillows - 2015-03-12 3:18 PM If you are in our market area, we make a Non-GMO coconut inclusion dog food that works really well on sensitive dogs. Renew Gold Balance. It is available on the West Coast, Arizona and Texas at this time. If you are interested just PM me.

Just saw this at the Albany trade show - love it! 
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docschic
Reg. Dec 2003
Posted 2015-03-12 5:25 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Sideways Riding Expert


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RunNbarrels - 2015-03-12 11:39 AM I feed Nutri Source and love it. A little more expensive, but what it does for your pets is awesome.

That's what we feed our monsters too.  I've never had to switch them out other then from Adult to Sr. and they look great on it.   
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trotncowpony
Reg. Aug 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Double Standards Don't Fly


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Location: At the barn
Science Diet all the way. That's what I feed my Min Pin, Dobie and Boston. They look great!
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angelica
Reg. Apr 2005
Posted 2015-03-12 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


I Really Love Jeans


Posts: 3173
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Location: North Dakota
Our weiner dog had the same thing your dog does, she had a bone stuck in her intestines!!!!! I hefty vet bill later and she is fine!!! I guess one of the kids likely gave her a bone! I feed IAMS, it is the best dog food you can buy!!! I used to show dobermans many years ago and it really brought out the best in all my dogs. Now I just own a weiner, but she is shiny and happy!!!!!!
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hezasmashnsixcess
Reg. Apr 2004
Posted 2015-03-12 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Duct Tape Can't Fix Stupid


Posts: 2748
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Location: Warsaw,NY
I feed Nutro Source to my lab and 1 french bulldog, the other frenchie gets Fromm surf and turf. look at the ingredients of the food. U want real meat as the main ingredients. U can also order food from Mrchewy.com. they will also auto deliver. Any food in walmart or grocery store is junk. 
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CYA Ranch
Reg. Feb 2008
Posted 2015-03-12 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Military family

More bootie than waist!


Posts: 18425
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Location: Riding Crackhead.
What did the vet say?
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Vickie
Reg. Jun 2005
Posted 2015-03-13 6:31 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



To the Left


Posts: 1865
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Location: Florida
I have been feeding Beniful Healthy Weight for years with no problems.  I have no plans to switch.
 
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astreakinchic
Reg. Sep 2011
Posted 2015-03-13 7:36 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Expert


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Vickie - 2015-03-13 7:31 AM

I have been feeding Beniful Healthy Weight for years with no problems.  I have no plans to switch.
 

You should really google the class act lawsuit against purina.

http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/02/lawsuit-claims-purinas-benefu...


Snopes disproves a lawsuit from 2007 but this new one was filed Feb 5 2015. The current lawsuit states that there were 2 other previous lawsuits filed before this most recent one.


Rumors of beneful being unhealthy for pets have been going around since the feed first came out.

Its really not a very healthy food for dogs if you look at the ingredients, but to each his own I guess.

Edited by astreakinchic 2015-03-13 7:53 AM
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justcruzin
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2015-03-13 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Voice of Reason


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Vickie - 2015-03-13 4:31 AM I have been feeding Beniful Healthy Weight for years with no problems.  I have no plans to switch.

 

Wow..... 
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gotothewhip
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2015-03-13 8:07 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



"Spaz-tacular"!!


Posts: 20309
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First off.... "dog Food Advisor" is a website....many of you all reference it....but where are they getting their info for the ranking, and who is behind it?  I've done the homework and look at it as a novel opinion website....it's not science or nutrition based IMHO

beneful is not a great dog food IMHO.  I wouldn't feed it due to its ingredients.....but, with that said:

on the lawsuits......anyone can sue anyone for anything.....their proof to sue does not need to be anything more than a check to their attorneys they are paying to represent them.

im uncomfortable with all of the claims made against this food.....but they can't find why it's making dogs sick.  


 
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quincy13
Reg. Mar 2014
Posted 2015-03-13 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Member


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Location: Kansas
I am a big fan of the Purina/Land O' Lakes dog food. Their Infinia and Exclusive brands are all I feed and my dog looks great and is healthy.
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Frodo
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2015-03-13 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


"Heck's Coming With Me"


Posts: 10794
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 I quit feeding Beneful ONLY because Purina One was on sale and my dogs liked it better.  I don't agree that all dog food from the grocery stores is junk.  I have a rescue Cocker Spaniel and a rescue Red Heeler.  Both are healthy, energetic and beautiful without feeding  high-dollar dog foods.  It's kind of like the propaganda touting foreign cars over American cars for roadworthiness and gas mileage.  It's just that.....propaganda.

 
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kewlcowgurl
Reg. Jan 2012
Posted 2015-03-13 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 590
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Location: Austin, Texas, where it can get really weird!!
I feed gluten free evolve, my dog had a super sensitive stomach when we got her from the breeder she was on Eukanuba and had loose stool and vomit on the same food she had been on her whole life - for months after we got her- some one told me about evolve and we tried it, best food i have tried. The only thing about it is that it is a little high in sodium so she drink more water. So we leave the back door open during the day for her to potty.
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astreakinchic
Reg. Sep 2011
Posted 2015-03-13 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Expert


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Frodo - 2015-03-13 9:43 AM

 I quit feeding Beneful ONLY because Purina One was on sale and my dogs liked it better.  I don't agree that all dog food from the grocery stores is junk.  I have a rescue Cocker Spaniel and a rescue Red Heeler.  Both are healthy, energetic and beautiful without feeding  high-dollar dog foods.  It's kind of like the propaganda touting foreign cars over American cars for roadworthiness and gas mileage.  It's just that.....propaganda.

 

I agree with this line of thinking too but then i'm paranoid i'm wrong and all the corn and "bad stuff" in the food is what caused my border collie to have cancer and suffer more from arthritis. If feeding high priced food would have lengthen his by even like a year I believed I'd have paid the price. I think of it like a person with a horrible diet doesn't live as long as a person with a healthier diet on average. But I agree too that sometimes it is propaganda.
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CheyTooBuck
Reg. Jan 2008
Posted 2015-03-13 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Extreme Veteran


Posts: 369
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Educate yourself on what ingredients should be in a good dog food and what ingredients are just junk added so they taste good to dogs. Read from a lot of different/reputable sources. Buy the very best food your budget will allow. In the long run, your vet costs will be lower.

Read the reviews for Dogfoodadvisor. They are not the ultimate dgo food advisor many think they are. With that said, they are a fair quick reference. Again, the best thing is to know what ingredients to look for.

The very bottom line is that unless you home cook for your dogs, all commercial dog food can have a recall. I have not gone to that yet.
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UTAHCANCHASER
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2015-03-13 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Party Girl


Posts: 12293
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Location: Buffalo, Wyoming
Does anyone feed Loyall from Nutrena?  I have been feeding this for almost a year now and have liked my results. 

Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about this feed? 
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downngo
Reg. Nov 2005
Posted 2015-03-13 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


Extreme Veteran


Posts: 396
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Location: Home on the Range
FlyingJT - 2015-03-12 12:07 PM Diamond Naturals. Or go to Dog Food Advisor and you can look at how all the dog foods are rated.

I feed Diamond Now also!
I raise heelers and what happened to my dogs was all of a sudden, No
 Pregnancies. Was it the females or males or both?  IDK but after 2 heat cycles came & went (everyone was blaming it on the strange weather), I consulted my vet, tried several different supplements, 3rd cycle, no results. Then changed from Purina dog food.  Within 8 months of switching all of them to Diamond the females were pregnant!
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Frodo
Reg. Jul 2004
Posted 2015-03-13 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?


"Heck's Coming With Me"


Posts: 10794
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astreakinchic - 2015-03-13 9:17 AM
Frodo - 2015-03-13 9:43 AM  I quit feeding Beneful ONLY because Purina One was on sale and my dogs liked it better.  I don't agree that all dog food from the grocery stores is junk.  I have a rescue Cocker Spaniel and a rescue Red Heeler.  Both are healthy, energetic and beautiful without feeding  high-dollar dog foods.  It's kind of like the propaganda touting foreign cars over American cars for roadworthiness and gas mileage.  It's just that.....propaganda.



 
I agree with this line of thinking too but then i'm paranoid i'm wrong and all the corn and "bad stuff" in the food is what caused my border collie to have cancer and suffer more from arthritis. If feeding high priced food would have lengthen his by even like a year I believed I'd have paid the price. I think of it like a person with a horrible diet doesn't live as long as a person with a healthier diet on average. But I agree too that sometimes it is propaganda.

 I had an Australian Shepherd that lived to be 19.  Honestly I don't think I ever fed her anything but Purina from the grocery store.  She was rarely sick and always fat and sassy.
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scared of sharks
Reg. Jul 2006
Posted 2015-03-13 11:07 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Elite Veteran


Posts: 1056
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get blood work asap. could be a kidney infection. time is of the essence with that
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teed
Reg. May 2011
Posted 2015-03-14 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?




10025
We lost 2 dogs from liver failure feeding Purina. Haven't used a Purina feed since for the horses or dogs.
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brlracerchick
Reg. Jun 2010
Posted 2015-03-14 9:15 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



Thick and Wavy


Posts: 6102
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Location: Nebraska
teed - 2015-03-14 7:37 AM We lost 2 dogs from liver failure feeding Purina. Haven't used a Purina feed since for the horses or dogs.

the horse company and dog feed company are 2 separate ones owned by different people, just fyi 
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teed
Reg. May 2011
Posted 2015-03-14 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?




10025
brlracerchick - 2015-03-14 9:15 AM

teed - 2015-03-14 7:37 AM We lost 2 dogs from liver failure feeding Purina. Haven't used a Purina feed since for the horses or dogs.

the horse company and dog feed company are 2 separate ones owned by different people, just fyi 

Just won't take the chance on feeding Purina no matter who owns them...
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Nevertooold
Reg. Oct 2003
Posted 2015-03-14 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: Sick Dog - Should we stop feeding Beneful?



I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land


Posts: 64864
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Frodo - 2015-03-13 8:06 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-03-13 9:17 AM
Frodo - 2015-03-13 9:43 AM  I quit feeding Beneful ONLY because Purina One was on sale and my dogs liked it better.  I don't agree that all dog food from the grocery stores is junk.  I have a rescue Cocker Spaniel and a rescue Red Heeler.  Both are healthy, energetic and beautiful without feeding  high-dollar dog foods.  It's kind of like the propaganda touting foreign cars over American cars for roadworthiness and gas mileage.  It's just that.....propaganda.



 
I agree with this line of thinking too but then i'm paranoid i'm wrong and all the corn and "bad stuff" in the food is what caused my border collie to have cancer and suffer more from arthritis. If feeding high priced food would have lengthen his by even like a year I believed I'd have paid the price. I think of it like a person with a horrible diet doesn't live as long as a person with a healthier diet on average. But I agree too that sometimes it is propaganda.
 I had an Australian Shepherd that lived to be 19.  Honestly I don't think I ever fed her anything but Purina from the grocery store.  She was rarely sick and always fat and sassy.

I would contribute that to her genes and it has nothing to do with what she was eating. I learned about dog foods and ingredients when we had an Am Staff that had terrible problems with her coat. After a bunch of wasted money going to Vet Specialists etc...Someone asked me what I was feeding and at the time it was Pedigree. They told me they would bet it was the corn in the food causing all the problems. Changed to a non corn based food and all of her skin and coat problems were gone.

Every dog is different and what they can and can't handle and what they might be allergic to is also different. Our Boston can't handle a grain free based food. Thanks to Stitch4k9, she told me about a small family owned food called Hi-Tek. Our other dogs did great on lamb but she can't handle it either so she is on the Chicken and rice formula. There are some dogs that can't handle chicken and do great on lamb. You have to experiment as there isn't one dog food and one ingredient that all dogs do good on. 
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