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Expert
Posts: 1477
  
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | I say it before anyone else does.... He is completely sound and healthy Teeth done and chiro checked. He doesn't rate at the first at all and completely blows by it. He was running right and then we found out he was actually trained as a lefty so we changed him. The problem carried over to the left. He does it in any pen with any size pattern if that matters. He's running in a O ring with a dog bone. I'm going to put a O ring with the same mouth piece but that has a rope nose and see if that makes a differance. So what some good rate drills? Maybe something that doesn't require a lot of actual barrel work because his other turns are perfect.
Edited by TessBelle 2015-03-17 5:35 PM
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Regular
Posts: 96
| A good drill I've found is to lope a circle until the horse is relaxed and listening. Sit, say whoa and instead of pulling push your hand forward and only bump them if they don't stop. A lot of horses will run through a pull and respond a lot better with soft bumps and body position for the stop. Let the horse settle and then start again to where the horse starts rating down and stops when they feel your body weight sit down and your hand go forward. This seems to work for me as this is how I go to the first - sit down rate, then relax for the turn.
I had a one that wouldn't look at the first barrel and I've found it was all about the strategy to prepare us for our job. Before you go down the alley are you asking your horse if they see the barrel? I know this sounds silly, but just talking to my horse this way helped her listen and me concentrate on my job. |
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| RSS - 2015-03-17 6:11 PM
A good drill I've found is to lope a circle until the horse is relaxed and listening. Sit, say whoa and instead of pulling push your hand forward and only bump them if they don't stop. A lot of horses will run through a pull and respond a lot better with soft bumps and body position for the stop. Let the horse settle and then start again to where the horse starts rating down and stops when they feel your body weight sit down and your hand go forward. This seems to work for me as this is how I go to the first - sit down rate, then relax for the turn.
I had a one that wouldn't look at the first barrel and I've found it was all about the strategy to prepare us for our job. Before you go down the alley are you asking your horse if they see the barrel? I know this sounds silly, but just talking to my horse this way helped her listen and me concentrate on my job.
This is some REALLY good advice here!! |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
  
Location: Phoenix | Got any videos? If I were you and he's not hurting, I would just make him go slow to the first Until he wraps it and gradually pick up speed as long as he wraps the first you can keep going faster but if he blows by then you take it down a notch and go slow again.
I found that the squares exercise really helped for my horse. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I wouldn't do any drills on the pattern. I would spend some time working on your horses flexibility, topline strength, and make sure they can lope a nice, smooth circle.
Then I'd look at your approach to first. Lots of people think that their horse isn't rating when actually, they've set their horse up wrong for a long time, putting him in a trap, then reaching down and grabbing them. They know they're going to get grabbed, so they hustle up and go harder trying to avoid it. The wrong way is to go in too straight, which forces the horse to take a step or even two by before coming around naturally. If you grab him during this, you can blow a hip, blow to the fence, or have a rough barrel.
Try opening up your approach to about twelve feet, angling to a spot about three feet off the barrel between the barrel and the far end of the arena. This will allow him to come in with his hip right, his shoulder up, and no unnecessary stepping past to get set up.
Also, when coming down the alley or starting a run, it's okay to slightly tip your horses nose to the inside, keeping your hands low, and sitting deep in the saddle. This will keep him collected, thinking first barrel, and your body language helping him chill.
If you must get on the pattern to work this out, do it at a walk and a trot. Don't stop one at first, unless it's to stop, regroup, and walk away from the barrel completely before coming back. Always do this quietly without aggression. |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | classicpotatochip - 2015-03-17 7:24 PM
I wouldn't do any drills on the pattern. I would spend some time working on your horses flexibility, topline strength, and make sure they can lope a nice, smooth circle.
Then I'd look at your approach to first. Lots of people think that their horse isn't rating when actually, they've set their horse up wrong for a long time, putting him in a trap, then reaching down and grabbing them. They know they're going to get grabbed, so they hustle up and go harder trying to avoid it. The wrong way is to go in too straight, which forces the horse to take a step or even two by before coming around naturally. If you grab him during this, you can blow a hip, blow to the fence, or have a rough barrel.
Try opening up your approach to about twelve feet, angling to a spot about three feet off the barrel between the barrel and the far end of the arena. This will allow him to come in with his hip right, his shoulder up, and no unnecessary stepping past to get set up.
Also, when coming down the alley or starting a run, it's okay to slightly tip your horses nose to the inside, keeping your hands low, and sitting deep in the saddle. This will keep him collected, thinking first barrel, and your body language helping him chill.
If you must get on the pattern to work this out, do it at a walk and a trot. Don't stop one at first, unless it's to stop, regroup, and walk away from the barrel completely before coming back. Always do this quietly without aggression.
I've tried different approaches and angles but always has the same results. I don't want to work on the whole pattern if I don't have to. |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Then I'd just slow down, make sure that you're approaching properly, relax, and let him follow through for as long as it takes for him to handle what you're asking him.
I know you said he's sound, but I'd re-evaluate hocks and teeth, feet angles, and saddle fit. All these things play a huge factor in what you're trying to do. |
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | classicpotatochip - 2015-03-17 8:02 PM Then I'd just slow down, make sure that you're approaching properly, relax, and let him follow through for as long as it takes for him to handle what you're asking him. I know you said he's sound, but I'd re-evaluate hocks and teeth, feet angles, and saddle fit. All these things play a huge factor in what you're trying to do.
Clifford and I went through a first barrel nightmare last fall/winter and into this year. He ended up needing some maintenance on a stifle and we injected hocks to be on the safe side - we thought he might be touchy enough to be reacting to very minor pain. His problem was two-fold though - he cannot just go zooming in there without thinking about the first barrel or he'll go down the fence. If I can get him to stop for a second and preferably take a deep breath, THEN take off, he'll inhale it. But if I let him decide when to leave, we're probably in trouble. When I do barrel work, and I don't do much of it, I walk him a few steps toward the barrel, stop & settle, walk a few more steps, stop again, etc. I'll walk the whole pattern because I have a super small one set up in my pasture and can get through it in about 30 seconds walking. At barrel races, I'm spending a lot of time on him during open arenas, settling him at the gate, walking slowly and under control towards the first barrel, doing a couple circles in that vicinity (always being careful to stay out of everyone else's way so this takes some timing) then walking back along the fence to the gate. I did that for probably 20 minutes last weekend and he absolutely smoked the first - would have won the jackpot if he hadn't slipped and pulled the second barrel over leaving it. |
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Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | A tip I picked up at an Ed Wright clinic is to watch where you are checking him. Only check when you want to turn. My horse was going so fast that I would bump, give it back, bump, give it back and by the time it was ACTUALLY time to turn, he was so ****ed off that he ignored me because I had let him continue running even after bumping. Also--he likes you to bump UP, not back. Mine would usually turn if I got him calm before heading to the first. |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | He comes in like a jet engin from way back in the alley. So I'll try what was said about getting his nose and I'll try not flying in so fast. He was a 1d rodeo horse but then turned out for 2yrs when the owner got pregnant and I bought him out of the pasture. And he had all kinds of problems. All small stuff but had a lot to fix. Just when I thought everything was on track this started. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
Location: Lost in the swamps | Doing this right now with a mare who had absolutely no rate. I stop at the rate point and let her sit there and relax. Be patient. I'll sit for 30 seconds or better. And circle till I feel her relax. Let patience be your friend! I also only put one barrel in my pen, not the whole pattern. this simple thing right here has helped multiple horses I've worked with!
Edited by imturnin3 2015-03-18 9:00 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| ride up to the first barrel, stop at your rate point(for a horse that is blowing by I will make that spot farther away than normal), counter arch away from the barrel, ride back to the gate, circle and head back to the first, rate/Stop, counter arch away and head back towards the gate, when you feel the horse anticipating stopping go ahead and let the horse rate and follow through with the turn. Its going to be kind of like a figure eight.
Edited by FlyingJT 2015-03-18 9:45 AM
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | To teach one to gather for the turn I like the Ian Francis/Clinton Anderson Flower Power drill. Its the one where you make a circle and then cut across (diagnol) and on the opposite end you gather them (rate), shape, and "make a petal." You can really get them cruising and using themselves on that "petal," which would be consistent with what they need to do on a barrel. I've also used this drill to teach one to shape and then drive off the turn in correct body position, and it was very beneficial in teaching my horse to handle his feet at higher rates of speed. This drill will totally "tattle" on your horsemanship and where your holes are, and it will tell you if your horse is sore or not. I knew mine needed some "therapy" when he couldn't even lope the "petal." It requires them to really gather back to you, set on the hocks and drive forward. All of which you need for rate on any barrel:) |
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 Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-03-18 12:00 PM To teach one to gather for the turn I like the Ian Francis/Clinton Anderson Flower Power drill. Its the one where you make a circle and then cut across (diagnol) and on the opposite end you gather them (rate), shape, and "make a petal." You can really get them cruising and using themselves on that "petal," which would be consistent with what they need to do on a barrel. I've also used this drill to teach one to shape and then drive off the turn in correct body position, and it was very beneficial in teaching my horse to handle his feet at higher rates of speed. This drill will totally "tattle" on your horsemanship and where your holes are, and it will tell you if your horse is sore or not. I knew mine needed some "therapy" when he couldn't even lope the "petal." It requires them to really gather back to you, set on the hocks and drive forward. All of which you need for rate on any barrel:)
Could you draw this out and post a pic? |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Just Bring It - 2015-03-18 12:24 PM
WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-03-18 12:00 PM To teach one to gather for the turn I like the Ian Francis/Clinton Anderson Flower Power drill. Its the one where you make a circle and then cut across (diagnol) and on the opposite end you gather them (rate), shape, and "make a petal." You can really get them cruising and using themselves on that "petal," which would be consistent with what they need to do on a barrel. I've also used this drill to teach one to shape and then drive off the turn in correct body position, and it was very beneficial in teaching my horse to handle his feet at higher rates of speed. This drill will totally "tattle" on your horsemanship and where your holes are, and it will tell you if your horse is sore or not. I knew mine needed some "therapy" when he couldn't even lope the "petal." It requires them to really gather back to you, set on the hocks and drive forward. All of which you need for rate on any barrel:)
Could you draw this out and post a pic?
That's what I was going to ask too |
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Member
Posts: 14
| Have you tried working one barrel? Away from the pattern? |
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The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | I'm not sure how to attach:/ Too big and I don't know how to resize it. If I can text it to someone I certainly will:)
Edited by WYOTurn-n-Burn 2015-03-18 1:44 PM
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | The clinto drill sounds like Ed's d Half Around drill but he quit using it, said a lot of peoe went home and didn't apply it correctly and started hitting barrels leaving.
As for rate headed to the first, I agree with Hammer... If your gonna send them, don't pick up on them 4 times to the first or pretty soon they are flat wondering if you really mean it or if you are just pestering them again. With my free runner the biggest help came after Diana Guinn posted about the quick stop bridle... We had done a million drills, clinics, time only's, lessons, worked her on cows, you name it, she got rolling especially to the first and it was like the run took over and she forgot everything. The quick stop allowed me to reteach her that when I sat down and my hands lifted slightly that meant "shorten you stride NOW!" Not after I beg you for 10 more strides. And it helped remind her to shorten her stride correctly not just merely slow down her feet and drop on her front end like she had been when I battled with getting her to rate. Her nose came in, her ribs lifted and her hind legs came up under her... Something she did nicely loping but once you hit the go button it was a struggle to bring her mind and body back to that....
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Worlds Greatest Laugh
Location: North Dakota | WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-03-18 12:00 PM To teach one to gather for the turn I like the Ian Francis/Clinton Anderson Flower Power drill. Its the one where you make a circle and then cut across (diagnol) and on the opposite end you gather them (rate), shape, and "make a petal." You can really get them cruising and using themselves on that "petal," which would be consistent with what they need to do on a barrel. I've also used this drill to teach one to shape and then drive off the turn in correct body position, and it was very beneficial in teaching my horse to handle his feet at higher rates of speed. This drill will totally "tattle" on your horsemanship and where your holes are, and it will tell you if your horse is sore or not. I knew mine needed some "therapy" when he couldn't even lope the "petal." It requires them to really gather back to you, set on the hocks and drive forward. All of which you need for rate on any barrel:)
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-03-18 12:00 PM To teach one to gather for the turn I like the Ian Francis/Clinton Anderson Flower Power drill. Its the one where you make a circle and then cut across (diagnol) and on the opposite end you gather them (rate), shape, and "make a petal." You can really get them cruising and using themselves on that "petal," which would be consistent with what they need to do on a barrel. I've also used this drill to teach one to shape and then drive off the turn in correct body position, and it was very beneficial in teaching my horse to handle his feet at higher rates of speed. This drill will totally "tattle" on your horsemanship and where your holes are, and it will tell you if your horse is sore or not. I knew mine needed some "therapy" when he couldn't even lope the "petal." It requires them to really gather back to you, set on the hocks and drive forward. All of which you need for rate on any barrel:)
We did this at a Kelly Kaminski clinic last summer. Good drill. |
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 Sorry I don't have any advice
Posts: 1975
Location: Sunnyland Florida |
In my opinion, a retraining process on the first is needed instead of drills. You say he goes from the back of the alley. Instead of going from the back of the alley, can you hold him up and just gallop to the first, then lope around the first barrel perfect and carry on? If so, ditch a few great runs and just enter him and do this. I've cured several this way. Just go whatever speed you can get a perfect first. Then, sneak a LITTLE bit of speed with each run. In no time, you'll be running hard again. When they go from the back of the alley, sometimes they tend to get 'flat' in the turn and don't gather. They can gather for the turn better when they're still gaining speed.
Another thing that works well (if not overdone) is lope in the alleyway, gallop toward the first a couple of strides, then stop him. Trot away, lope, gallop and stop again - about 3 times before you get to the first. That will build rate in them. However, you can't go right back to sending them from the back of the alley.
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Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | Oops, been so long since I looked at it it is called a Fast Stop...Weaver Leather..
http://www.horse.com/item/weaver-fast-stop-browband-headstall/WQW10...
You can not be heavy handed with this or a be a person that doesn't release when the response it given!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | When I bought him he was running in a Jim Warner hack. He was being risen by a man and they hack just wasn't enough for me to be able to control him so we started with O rings and moved our way up until we found one that worked great. Is there another type of hack that has more control to it? I won't use a chain nose because in my mind I think there cruel. I'm sure they're not but couldn't make me believe it. I don't look down on people that use them but I won't use it. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
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I don't think anyone by themselves should try this bit. You need to ride with someone who knows how to use these...most novice ppl really have no business using them because their hands are not good enough. |
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Badonkadonk
Posts: 4189
Location: Mississippi | When I brought my current horse back from my mom's to start running she wouldn't rate any barrel and would hang on the bit thru every turn. I'm 5'2 and 130lbs and can't stand having to pull a horse around. I worked on one rein stops and then went digging in my team roper hubby's bits and found a long shank chain bit with a tight chain curb piece. This horse was already patterned to death and just needed to understand what she needed to do and I didn't have time to start over. I started out trotting up to the barrels asking her to stop and only getting in her mouth if I had to. Then I started loping up stopping and backing up. I only put that bit on her every other day for about 2 weeks and now it's no longer needed and she runs a near perfect pattern everytime. This was a quick fix since I needed her running ASAP. Now I exercise her and walk the pattern stopping and backing at her points to cool her out.I had a horse in the past that ran in a quick stop. She just ran like an out of control freight train but she won a lot for me in the quick stop. You have to have VERY calm hands for a quick stop and it isn't something I recommend but it is out there. You have to be able to immediately release once you get a response.Another thing to think about is are you cueing your horse in a run to rate and collect up for the turn? |
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Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | astreakinchic - 2015-03-20 7:27 AM
I don't think anyone by themselves should try this bit. You need to ride with someone who knows how to use these...most novice ppl really have no business using them because their hands are not good enough.
I agree...just giving her info on what worked for me and my mare with the same type issues. :-) |
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Drills for a horse that doesn't rate at the 1st