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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
 
| I have mostly always been more satisfied with the non-veterinary equine dentists, mostly I think because I believed the talk of the non-vet dentists who told me that their training was much more intensive than a vets.
My last experience has changed my mind.
I had a recommended dentist come to float my 6-year olds teeth because it had been at least 8 months since he was done and he was dropping grain and excessively chewing on his bit. This dentist did a float with hand tools, (while giving me the talk about how power tools are bad of course). She left my place to go on to do a few more horses that are owned by pretty knowledgeable horse people in the area. Anyway, my horse continued to drop grain and have the slobbering, chewing issues with his bit. A month later, another dentist shows up on the place. This is one who teaches dentistry and does NFR horses, in fact, he did an NFR barrel horse right after mine this day. Anyway, I told him I didn't think my horse was yet right after the last dentist and so he said he would have a look at him. He looks at him and tells me that dentist missed a fractured molar, and it had to come out. So he proceeds to float the teeth and extract the molar. My horse is off feed or 3 days, and coincidentally catches the crud the day after he gets his teeth done. Within a week he is back to himself, full feed and riding great- no more dropping feed and excessive bit chewing. A week later he can't keep any feed in his mouth, every thing he takes in he spits out again. This started on a Saturday and I couldn't get him to the vet until Tuesday. By Tuesday he hasn't eaten much at all in four days, and has lost a significant amount of weight and energy. So the vet inspects him, and tells me that the dentist left half a molar in there- roots exposed, obviously very, very painful, and now infected. I asked her if there was anyway my dentist could have made an honest mistake and thought he got the whole tooth? She said there was no way he could have missed it and probably just left praying that it wouldn't go bad on me. She knew who this dentist was, and said that she had always thought that he was one of the "good ones" who practice non-veterinary dentistry, but this situation made her change her mind about him. So... now I am looking at a $1000 surgical procedure to drill the rest of the molar out of my horses mouth. He's on antibiotics and daily bute, and has to have his hay and grain soaked to a mush so he can eat it.
I have spent twice to get his teeth floated, and then one time to get the poor jobs finished by a vet. I think that this has forever changed my mind about having a non-veterinary dentist go near my horses teeth. I'm curious to know anyone elses experiences?? |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
  
Location: ND | I've had problems with both dentists & vets when it comes to dental work. I've had a vet who couldn't even find a wolf tooth and I've had dentists take so much tooth the horse couldn't eat for a week. You can't judge either of them as a whole, you have to look at each individual and their work. |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Last time I let a vet do teeth, he messed my mare's jaw and poll up so bad she couldn't turn the first barrel correctly for 5 months. That was 10 years ago. |
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Veteran
Posts: 182
| Totally agree with SaraJean. Personally I use an equine dentist (not a vet) for my horses. He does a lot of NFR horses. I've used him for years and his skills surpass the 3 different vets I've tried when he was unavailable. Now I wait for him rather than waste money on vets. |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | I think it is all about the individual and how well they have absorbed their education and learned their trade, as well as their willingness to take the time and attention to do the job properly.
I had an awesome non-veterinary dentist for years and years. Equine dentistry was his family trade and he learned from the best and worked on the biggest racetracks in the country. This guy worked without drugs and could into a stall with his tools and horses just seemed to open their mouths and let him work. I was always in awe.
Since that individual passed away, I have used a vet with a specialty in dentistry. He also does an outstanding job, but his methods are a little more conventional. |
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Miss Not Exciting
Posts: 3279
Location: Ft Worth TX | I won't use a dentist that is not a vet... I have noticed in TX they have lots of "fakes" that don't have proper training at all. I also prefer them not to be power floated- I like a good old hand float. I MAY consider a non-vet equine dentist for BASIC maintenance if they came highly recommended BUT if they need extractions or anything outside of a simple float a vet would be my only option. Not only that my vet charges $105 and at that cheap I will use him over anyone else... he has had the training if not more then most dentists from what he explains anyways- but hes an older vet. |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| I agree with a few of you that for general floats, the non-vet's are OK. The first question I got from the vet I contacted was, "Did he take any X-Rays to make sure he got all the fragments out?" And of course I had to say, "no, he's not a vet and doesn't have an X-Ray machine." And then I just got the cold stare........ |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| First of all in TX an equine dentist has to work under the supervision of a vet. There are a few vets that specialize in dentistry. There is a Dr Norris that is in the Mt Pleasant TX area and Kendra Dickson's husband, Chad Dickson. Chad lives in the Pilot Point or Edgewood area. I have used Norris and was very pleased. Personally I prefer an equine dentist. Whoever does mine has to show me what they are doing. By the way, I have a good one. |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| We had a horse a non vet dentist ground on the horse's molars so much he had muscle spasms in his jaws due to his totally changing his grinding surface. He lost weight for about 6 weeks due to his inability to chew without pain. Horses teeth are wearing out faster and they're being left with little to chew with due to over zealousness in grinding on their teeth. This premature wearing out of the horses' teeth started with the growth of non vet dentistry. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | I've used both. I used a vet one time in the spring and he noticed my horse's tooth was broken and pulled it right then and there. But I've also used dentists.....I wish there a manual on how it's all supposed to be done. |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| BMW - 2015-03-17 10:08 PM We had a horse a non vet dentist ground on the horse's molars so much he had muscle spasms in his jaws due to his totally changing his grinding surface. He lost weight for about 6 weeks due to his inability to chew without pain. Horses teeth are wearing out faster and they're being left with little to chew with due to over zealousness in grinding on their teeth. This premature wearing out of the horses' teeth started with the growth of non vet dentistry.
I agree- I had a 13 year old gelding done by an equine dentist once, and the float was so aggressive he didn't need to be done for 3 more years- and even then it was just minimal. |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | It depends on where they got their training. It used to be, the best in the world was named Dale Jeffrey. He got run out of (I think it was Kansas) because he was not a vet. Even tho if you walked into almost any vet school and picked out their study book on the subject, he wrote it. He used to have a school up in Idaho where he kept a vet (that did the Royal Stables in England) on staff at all times. They would get vets in there from all over the world to learn more about the subject because the training in vet school was so limited.. but I understand he retired and I don't know what the situation is now.. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | I've used both. I'm lucky, I have a great non vet dentist. I think the key to using either is to get in their mouth with whoever
is working on them. Make them show you what they think is going on.
Mine always shows me before and after and explains what she did. There's no doubt when she's done that they're in good shape.
I also use a vet dentist for my hard to sedate colt. She's the same way. Shows me and explains everything she does.
I've been very lucky to not have any dental issues since I've been using either of them. |
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | I've tried vets and equine dentists. Had trouble with both. The vet I switched to about 5 years ago for all my horse stuff does a great job on everything including teeth. He lets me put his miners light on and dig around in my horses mouth. Answers all my stupid questions too. I'm lucky to have him. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| CYA Ranch - 2015-03-18 8:07 AM I've tried vets and equine dentists. Had trouble with both. The vet I switched to about 5 years ago for all my horse stuff does a great job on everything including teeth. He lets me put his miners light on and dig around in my horses mouth. Answers all my stupid questions too. I'm lucky to have him.
Ditto, I use my vet also. He shows me anything he finds or is concerned about. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2604
Location: Texas | I use an equine vet that specializes and only does equine teeth. Best of both worlds! I have used non vet dentists in the past and have never been satisified with how they did them, even though they also had worked on NFR people's horses. |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | I use my vets office. I have one vet I use regularly. But this is a bigger office with 5 active vets working out of it, so when I call and schedule something the office people will always give me the vet that is the best at what I need. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 700
Location: Driving, Grooming, or Saddling for a Kid! | streakysox - 2015-03-17 10:02 PM First of all in TX an equine dentist has to work under the supervision of a vet. There are a few vets that specialize in dentistry. There is a Dr Norris that is in the Mt Pleasant TX area and Kendra Dickson's husband, Chad Dickson. Chad lives in the Pilot Point or Edgewood area. I have used Norris and was very pleased. Personally I prefer an equine dentist. Whoever does mine has to show me what they are doing. By the way, I have a good one.
Explain please |
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 Expert
Posts: 2276
Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | My dentist isn't a vet. He learned from his father and also went to school for it. He's always done a fantastic job and is CHEAP compared to anyone else I've heard of around here. He's getting older and having health issues....I don't know what I will do when he is no longer able to do it. |
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 Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | My dentist is our very own canchasr1 on here and I can honestly say she is the best I have ever used! She is certified through the state veterinary board and every horse she works on she pays very close attention to in order to be sure their mouth is perfect. I'm so happy to have found her for my horses and to call her my friend!
Now that being said, there are others who are not so good. I had a vet do a filly's teeth one time and break off her wolf teeth and not tell me. I feel like some vets don't pay close enough attention....they get in and get out. The person who I want working on my horse's teeth works slow and takes their time to make sure everything is balanced and perfect. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| I use my vet as well, and have been very happy with her work! She's a horse person and a barrel racer as well, so she understands on a personal level as well as from the perspective of a vet - which I LOVE! |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | It's not a yes or no answer. It depends on the individual that is doing the dental work. I'm a pain in the butt, I will ask 50 questions and expect to be able to see exactly what they are working on. Personally, I'm a fan of power floats in the right hands. I've been in vet clinics and watched them having technicians handle the floats :-( ....and there are equine dentists I won't use. What works for me is using an equine dentist that understands what I'm doing with my horses. A good one won't have any problem telling you if they find an issue that they feel like a vet needs to tackle. Do a bit of research first. Study up. If you're going to be serious about running barrels, then gaining knowledge about a horse's teeth and how they should be treated will help you in the long run. |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | my vet has always done my horses teeth, I've never used an equine dentist....probably never will because my vet has done just a great job for the past 10+ years. |
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 Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | Herbie - 2015-03-18 9:08 AM My dentist is our very own canchasr1 on here and I can honestly say she is the best I have ever used! She is certified through the state veterinary board and every horse she works on she pays very close attention to in order to be sure their mouth is perfect. I'm so happy to have found her for my horses and to call her my friend!
Now that being said, there are others who are not so good. I had a vet do a filly's teeth one time and break off her wolf teeth and not tell me. I feel like some vets don't pay close enough attention....they get in and get out. The person who I want working on my horse's teeth works slow and takes their time to make sure everything is balanced and perfect.
Thank you girl. I appreciate that.
To answer a couple questions I saw..
1. All Equine dental providers in the state of texas must be Certified and Licensed through the Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners. Certified means that they have attended and passed the required schooling, certification exams both written and practical and a jurisprudence ( laws) exam for the vet board. If your dental provider hasnt, they arent legal.
2. As far as the question regarding vet supervision: CEDP's are required to be under "general supervision" ( basically within phone reach) of a vet for routine floats, other more difficult issues may require direct or immediate supervision of a vet, which translates to onsite/ or within the same room.
I know there is alot of argument for and against hand float/ power float.
All I can say is there are good and bad in both. Do your homework.
as far as the original poster and the partial tooth left in her horse,
That is common practice to leave the unaffected portion in the mouth if at all possible. This keeps the horse from having a gap in the dentition and keeps a tooth inside the archade to wear opposing teeth.
The problem comes with the way the tooth has broken and proper after care which is difficult. In upper molars, it is common to be able to save a portion of the tooth due to the way the pulp chambers lay if it was broken down the middle of the tooth front to back, not side to side.
That being said, everyone has things that go south at times. I have and im sure every other CEDP has, it isnt that you dont try to do everything right, it is that every horse is different and react differently just like people.
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I use a vet that went to dental school. Love the way she is so careful with the power tools. |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Canchasr1 - 2015-03-18 10:28 AM Herbie - 2015-03-18 9:08 AM My dentist is our very own canchasr1 on here and I can honestly say she is the best I have ever used! She is certified through the state veterinary board and every horse she works on she pays very close attention to in order to be sure their mouth is perfect. I'm so happy to have found her for my horses and to call her my friend!
Now that being said, there are others who are not so good. I had a vet do a filly's teeth one time and break off her wolf teeth and not tell me. I feel like some vets don't pay close enough attention....they get in and get out. The person who I want working on my horse's teeth works slow and takes their time to make sure everything is balanced and perfect. Thank you girl. I appreciate that.
To answer a couple questions I saw..
1. All Equine dental providers in the state of texas must be Certified and Licensed through the Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners. Certified means that they have attended and passed the required schooling, certification exams both written and practical and a jurisprudence ( laws) exam for the vet board. If your dental provider hasnt, they arent legal.
2. As far as the question regarding vet supervision: CEDP's are required to be under "general supervision" ( basically within phone reach) of a vet for routine floats, other more difficult issues may require direct or immediate supervision of a vet, which translates to onsite/ or within the same room.
I know there is alot of argument for and against hand float/ power float.
All I can say is there are good and bad in both. Do your homework.
as far as the original poster and the partial tooth left in her horse,
That is common practice to leave the unaffected portion in the mouth if at all possible. This keeps the horse from having a gap in the dentition and keeps a tooth inside the archade to wear opposing teeth.
The problem comes with the way the tooth has broken and proper after care which is difficult. In upper molars, it is common to be able to save a portion of the tooth due to the way the pulp chambers lay if it was broken down the middle of the tooth front to back, not side to side.
That being said, everyone has things that go south at times. I have and im sure every other CEDP has, it isnt that you dont try to do everything right, it is that every horse is different and react differently just like people.
Thank you for the explanation! |
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Expert
Posts: 1280
Location: Texas | Do those of you who use a non-vet dentist allow them to administer anesthesia?
My concern with using a non-vet dentist has always been concerning the administration of anesthesia. I have had a vet even have an emergency situation resulting from a bad reaction to (& probably too much) anesthesia. That horse would have died had not a vet been present. Therefore, I will continue to use a vet that has skills in dentistry.
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Canchasr1 - 2015-03-18 9:28 AM Herbie - 2015-03-18 9:08 AM My dentist is our very own canchasr1 on here and I can honestly say she is the best I have ever used! She is certified through the state veterinary board and every horse she works on she pays very close attention to in order to be sure their mouth is perfect. I'm so happy to have found her for my horses and to call her my friend!
Now that being said, there are others who are not so good. I had a vet do a filly's teeth one time and break off her wolf teeth and not tell me. I feel like some vets don't pay close enough attention....they get in and get out. The person who I want working on my horse's teeth works slow and takes their time to make sure everything is balanced and perfect. Thank you girl. I appreciate that.
To answer a couple questions I saw..
1. All Equine dental providers in the state of texas must be Certified and Licensed through the Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners. Certified means that they have attended and passed the required schooling, certification exams both written and practical and a jurisprudence ( laws) exam for the vet board. If your dental provider hasnt, they arent legal.
2. As far as the question regarding vet supervision: CEDP's are required to be under "general supervision" ( basically within phone reach) of a vet for routine floats, other more difficult issues may require direct or immediate supervision of a vet, which translates to onsite/ or within the same room.
I know there is alot of argument for and against hand float/ power float.
All I can say is there are good and bad in both. Do your homework.
as far as the original poster and the partial tooth left in her horse,
That is common practice to leave the unaffected portion in the mouth if at all possible. This keeps the horse from having a gap in the dentition and keeps a tooth inside the archade to wear opposing teeth.
The problem comes with the way the tooth has broken and proper after care which is difficult. In upper molars, it is common to be able to save a portion of the tooth due to the way the pulp chambers lay if it was broken down the middle of the tooth front to back, not side to side.
That being said, everyone has things that go south at times. I have and im sure every other CEDP has, it isnt that you dont try to do everything right, it is that every horse is different and react differently just like people.
Thank you for that explanation canchaser1. The second dentist I used just got in touch with me and also explained that he had meant to leave a part of that tooth in there for the reasons you described. He was sorry he didn't explain the issues of after care and the possibility of having to have the whole thing removed later by a surgeon to me. He was pretty sincere with his explanation, and like I said, he has a good reputation so it meant alot to have him call me and try to make things right. With that being said though, I do agree with the suggestion (or law, rule, etc. per state), that an extraction should be done at a vet clinic or with a vet present who understands the procedure and it's complications in much more depth than just pulling the loose piece of the fractured tooth out. |
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Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | tracies - 2015-03-18 11:56 AM Do those of you who use a non-vet dentist allow them to administer anesthesia?
My concern with using a non-vet dentist has always been concerning the administration of anesthesia. I have had a vet even have an emergency situation resulting from a bad reaction to (& probably too much) anesthesia. That horse would have died had not a vet been present. Therefore, I will continue to use a vet that has skills in dentistry.
It is illegal in Texas for a non- vet to sedate.
By law, you as a horse owner or a horses care taker ( trainer, ect) can legally sedate a horse.
If you have questions or concerns about the legal rules, you can look them up in Chapter 801 of the Texas Occupations Code. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 700
Location: Driving, Grooming, or Saddling for a Kid! | I use canchasr1 as well....and she is fan-freakin-tastic |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Canchasr1 - 2015-03-18 1:08 PM
tracies - 2015-03-18 11:56 AM Do those of you who use a non-vet dentist allow them to administer anesthesia?
My concern with using a non-vet dentist has always been concerning the administration of anesthesia. I have had a vet even have an emergency situation resulting from a bad reaction to (& probably too much) anesthesia. That horse would have died had not a vet been present. Therefore, I will continue to use a vet that has skills in dentistry.
It is illegal in Texas for a non- vet to sedate.
By law, you as a horse owner or a horses care taker ( trainer, ect) can legally sedate a horse.
If you have questions or concerns about the legal rules, you can look them up in Chapter 801 of the Texas Occupations Code.
As far as I know, by federal law it is illegal in any state for a non-vet dentist to do that. |
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 Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | I also use Canchasr1 and she is the BEST!!! I am so glad she is in my area as I used to use Chad Dickson, DVM(Kendra's hubby) and although he is really good he is just too far away being way up in Aubrey.
Like Herbie said, "I am happy to call Canchasr1 a friend." as well as a dang good equine dentist. I would recommend her to anyone. She explains everything and really takes her time.    |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | DunIt - 2015-03-18 8:41 AM
streakysox - 2015-03-17 10:02 PM First of all in TX an equine dentist has to work under the supervision of a vet. There are a few vets that specialize in dentistry. There is a Dr Norris that is in the Mt Pleasant TX area and Kendra Dickson's husband, Chad Dickson. Chad lives in the Pilot Point or Edgewood area. I have used Norris and was very pleased. Personally I prefer an equine dentist. Whoever does mine has to show me what they are doing. By the way, I have a good one.
Explain please
Because the horse has to be sedated. Only a vet can legally sedate your horse. So a dentist that isn't a vet is suppose to have a vet do this part. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | livinonlove&horses - 2015-03-18 5:10 PM
DunIt - 2015-03-18 8:41 AM
streakysox - 2015-03-17 10:02 PM First of all in TX an equine dentist has to work under the supervision of a vet. There are a few vets that specialize in dentistry. There is a Dr Norris that is in the Mt Pleasant TX area and Kendra Dickson's husband, Chad Dickson. Chad lives in the Pilot Point or Edgewood area. I have used Norris and was very pleased. Personally I prefer an equine dentist. Whoever does mine has to show me what they are doing. By the way, I have a good one.
Explain please
Because the horse has to be sedated. Only a vet can legally sedate your horse. So a dentist that isn't a vet is suppose to have a vet do this part.
Oh no... I saw lots of work at the school in Idaho where the horse did NOT have to be sedated.. Simple wolf-teeth... floats... caps... stuff like that..
Edited by komet. 2015-03-18 5:24 PM
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | I just purchased a gelding a few days ago! Today I noticed he has his wolf teeth and one has decay on it! Who is best vet or dentist to use in the East Dallas/ Plano Texas area???? I want a good job done but not cheated on the price!
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion.
I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it.
I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry.
My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry
1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice.
2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks.
3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far.
I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations..
Edited by casualdust07 2015-03-18 6:06 PM
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 Night Chat Leader
Posts: 13150
Location: Home....Smiling M Farms | Whoop Z Day Z - 2015-03-17 9:56 PM
I won't use a dentist that is not a vet... I have noticed in TX they have lots of "fakes" that don't have proper training at all. I also prefer them not to be power floated- I like a good old hand float. I MAY consider a non-vet equine dentist for BASIC maintenance if they came highly recommended BUT if they need extractions or anything outside of a simple float a vet would be my only option. Not only that my vet charges $105 and at that cheap I will use him over anyone else... he has had the training if not more then most dentists from what he explains anyways- but hes an older vet.
TN is even stricter than that, you aren't allowed to practice veterinary medicine without being a vet. There are still dentists here, but they tend to lay low.
Bad thing about a non-vet, is when they try to use drugs. A friend of mine had a non-vet dentist come out to float her horses, he gave her young horse a little ace before starting as she was a little high strung. Horse had a terrible reaction, went down flailing. Had to call the vet out on emergency, luckily she was only 5 minutes away. Talk about a wake up call.
I also don't like power tools, they can do too much too fast and you can't put that back where it came from. |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 5:05 PM I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion. I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it. I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry. My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry 1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice. 2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks. 3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far. I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations..
Good point casualdust07, A DVM does not make you a good dentist, but you can find a good dentist who is also a DVM. I think I am going to have to go the DVM route from now on after this. I also wondered what type of liability insurance the lay dentist would carry in case something does go wrong? I am already having to pay quite a bit of money to have the vet finish the job the two lay dentists didn't, and I have a very hungry, depressed horse. |
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Member
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| casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM
I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion.
I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it.
I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry.
My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry
1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice.
2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks.
3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far.
I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations..
I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off.
You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession.
I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore. |
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
Location: Alberta | I use my vet for teeth work, she is a very knowledgeable and loves what she does and I learn a lot anytime I use her. There is a local guy who is a horse dentist and only based on knowing him personally i wouldnt let him touch my horses.....not saying I wouldn't ever use a straight dentist....depends on the individual.... |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I just had 3 done today using a vet. I have been happy so far, but as far as the Sedation, this new girl could not hit a vein to save her life and after stabbing my new to town 3 yr old 5 times, he had enough and I mean ENOUGH! So we opted for the gel they put in the mouth under the tongue. Takes about 20-40 minutes to work and is legal to sell to customers. I have some here at home for "just in case" type of deals. Wounds I need to Dr on on a horse that may not be handled much. Can't the equine dentists use this? It flat knocked my guy out, but they did give him the regular vein cocktail before they did his teeth. I imagine they could have gotten quite a lot done without it though and just the affects of the gel. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | wyoming barrel racer - 2015-03-18 10:31 PM
I just had 3 done today using a vet. I have been happy so far, but as far as the Sedation, this new girl could not hit a vein to save her life and after stabbing my new to town 3 yr old 5 times, he had enough and I mean ENOUGH! So we opted for the gel they put in the mouth under the tongue. Takes about 20-40 minutes to work and is legal to sell to customers. I have some here at home for "just in case" type of deals. Wounds I need to Dr on on a horse that may not be handled much. Can't the equine dentists use this? It flat knocked my guy out, but they did give him the regular vein cocktail before they did his teeth. I imagine they could have gotten quite a lot done without it though and just the affects of the gel.
It's detomidine gel, and I still don't think a lay dentist can legally administer it to horses he is working on. Yes, a vet can RX it to you to use for stuff… but he can't sell it to a dentist to use on clients. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Skyward - 2015-03-18 8:49 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM
I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion.
I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it.
I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry.
My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry
1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice.
2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks.
3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far.
I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations..
I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older ) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years ).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off.
You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession.
I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore.
I think it's coming back now because veterinarians realized they lost a market that could have been making them a lot of money. It doesn't require EXPENSIVE equipment and you make more of a profit on it because you aren't paying off 5 and 6 figure machines. But when they got lax, and other people stepped in, they lost the market.
There are plenty of vets that hate it but will still do it when asked because… they know how to do it and its income.. but, thats when you weed out and find the right ones.
I plan on getting proficient in it because it's a skill I can use out of a truck, at a show, on a farm call.. like, I can get good at it and provide a good service right out of school…but believe me most of the people in my graduating class are terrified of horses and have zero desire to work on one much less float teeth.
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Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | I can definitely see your side of the debate Casualdust. I am picky about who touches my horses and Canchasr1 goes above and beyond in her dentistry. She has studied so hard and passed the board tests. I have no doubt she would recommend our vet to take a look at anything she sees out of the ordinary as we use the same vet. I can't stress enough how meticulous she is on every single one of the horses she works on. She has done 10 of mine in one day and it took all day because she takes her time and goes over everything with you.
Did I say how great Canchasr1 is at equine dentistry?! 
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Texas Tenderheart
Posts: 6715
Location: Red Raiderland | casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 10:48 PM Skyward - 2015-03-18 8:49 PM casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion. I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it. I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry. My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry 1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice. 2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks. 3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far. I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations.. I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older ) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years ).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off. You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession. I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore. I think it's coming back now because veterinarians realized they lost a market that could have been making them a lot of money. It doesn't require EXPENSIVE equipment and you make more of a profit on it because you aren't paying off 5 and 6 figure machines. But when they got lax, and other people stepped in, they lost the market. There are plenty of vets that hate it but will still do it when asked because… they know how to do it and its income.. but, thats when you weed out and find the right ones. I plan on getting proficient in it because it's a skill I can use out of a truck, at a show, on a farm call.. like, I can get good at it and provide a good service right out of school… but believe me most of the people in my graduating class are terrified of horses and have zero desire to work on one much less float teeth.
This part scares me! I sure hope they are going to do "dogs and cats"! Yikes  |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Kaycee - 2015-03-18 10:06 PM I can definitely see your side of the debate Casualdust. I am picky about who touches my horses and Canchasr1 goes above and beyond in her dentistry. She has studied so hard and passed the board tests. I have no doubt she would recommend our vet to take a look at anything she sees out of the ordinary as we use the same vet. I can't stress enough how meticulous she is on every single one of the horses she works on. She has done 10 of mine in one day and it took all day because she takes her time and goes over everything with you.
Did I say how great Canchasr1 is at equine dentistry?!
10 a day?? Holy cats! |
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Member
Posts: 15
| Kaycee - 2015-03-18 11:07 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 10:48 PM Skyward - 2015-03-18 8:49 PM casualdust07 - 2015-03-18 6:05 PM I didn't read all the posts because I am in a bit of a time crunch but here is my opinion. I do not agree with lay people practicing dentistry, unless they are AT the clinic in the PRESENCE of a vet who can inspect their work. And even then, I would rather the vet do it. I am in vet school and I most definitely have taken every opportunity presented to me so far to get some experience with dentistry. My reasons for not wanting a lay person to practice dentistry 1- recourse: what if he sedates your horse, and hits the carotid? what if he sedates your horse and the horse has a reaction? what if he sedates your horse and the horse ends up with an injury? What if he does a horrible float job and your horse cracks a tooth? What if he extracts a tooth and there's a problem? YOU as the owner have no recourse. He is not a vet, he does not have to answer to the state veterinary board…theres no one in your corner as the owner to protect you from any malpractice. 2- ability- I agree that there are many lay dentists that are BETTER than DVM dentists, but I think it is up to the individual person. I know the vet I worked for has done extensive CE in dentistry and does an extremely thorough job. We also have a very extensive background in anatomy of the equine head, and are trained and allowed to do nerve blocks when needed in order to extract teeth. There is no way a lay dentist should have access to controlled substances and that they should be doing blocks. 3- a trained eye for the whole horse- We as veterinarians are trained to look outside the box. the vet I worked for had a horse who he did a float on.. it was packing feed in one spot and the tissue looked a little funny. He had a hunch and had the capability of taking a tissue biopsy on the spot. He could have just let it go… Well, turns out it was squamous cell carcinoma in the oral cavity of the horse. He was able to treat that horse and save its life. I just highly doubt a lay dentist would have looked that far. I know it is a sore subject and a lot of people love their dentists that aren't vets. But I have to be loyal to my future profession. As always, it's consumer awareness- no one is created equal. a DVM doesn't make you a good dentist. But you can find a GOOD dentist who is also a DVM. that has a state board that can protect you as the horse owner if something goes wrong, who has a trained eye to see other problems a lay person may miss, who has the drugs- legally- to properly sedate and block, who has the skill, training, and technique to extract teeth correctly. We get a ton of disasters come in from tooth extractions that ended up with holes in their heads, sinus infections, and sequestrations.. I'll play devils advocate here.. especially on #1 - those things can happen to a horse in a vets care. especially a new vet or an older vet in a hurry. It's nice to thing you are going to have some kind of recourse but if it was a reaction good luck collecting.. #2 I think that the schools have came a long way but most vets (especially older ) will flat tell you that they spent a minimal amount of time on teeth. A long LONG time ago that was all they could teach and then they drifted more to every other part of the horse and finally they are coming back to it (that was a statement made by a vet in practice for 30years ).. #3 A really good dentist does have an eye for the whole horse and will refer to a vet for things that seem off. You said a key phrase that most vets adhere to..I have to be loyal to my profession. I go to a dentist instead of my doctor to have my teeth worked on. I go to a massage therapist that isn't a physical therapist. I go to a chiropractor that didn't go to medical school. I've used both a vet and a dentist. I will keep my dentist unless he quits or just can't come anymore. I think it's coming back now because veterinarians realized they lost a market that could have been making them a lot of money. It doesn't require EXPENSIVE equipment and you make more of a profit on it because you aren't paying off 5 and 6 figure machines. But when they got lax, and other people stepped in, they lost the market. There are plenty of vets that hate it but will still do it when asked because… they know how to do it and its income.. but, thats when you weed out and find the right ones. I plan on getting proficient in it because it's a skill I can use out of a truck, at a show, on a farm call.. like, I can get good at it and provide a good service right out of school… but believe me most of the people in my graduating class are terrified of horses and have zero desire to work on one much less float teeth.
Me too! I'm glad we have a BB in school that wants to work on horses for sure :)
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | I have used both vet and equine dentist with good results.. I've been lucky I suppose. I dont have a preference for hand tools or power tools I've seen both used - and have had good results with both. What I will add though is that - like anything there are good and bad techniques - and so whether it be a vet or a certified equine dentist I think you will find there are always going to be good and bad from both. Just be careful who you choose - if they mess up or do something you dont like dont be afraid to not call them again - it is your horse - you are the horses advocate and you are the one paying the bill! When I get mine done I am that nosey owner who is standing right beside them watching every single thing and asking questions... heck if im paying em basically 150 for an hours worth of work or less usually - at least i can get a show out of it lol.. and ask a lot of questions! I had always used a vet for mine but then moved and went to a new vet who he strictly has an equine dentist that comes once or twice a month to service his practice - and so its vet "supervised" but the vet has so much trust in him he really just lets him work at his facility and provides the tranquilizers... but the equine dentist has really impressed me with his knowledge and care. Haven't had any issues w/using him thankfully and have learned a lot even. |
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| i would rather get my horses teeth done by an equine dentist not by a vet because they specialize in this just like farriers specialize with their hooves |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-03-18 8:31 PM
I just had 3 done today using a vet. I have been happy so far, but as far as the Sedation, this new girl could not hit a vein to save her life and after stabbing my new to town 3 yr old 5 times, he had enough and I mean ENOUGH! So we opted for the gel they put in the mouth under the tongue. Takes about 20-40 minutes to work and is legal to sell to customers. I have some here at home for "just in case" type of deals. Wounds I need to Dr on on a horse that may not be handled much. Can't the equine dentists use this? It flat knocked my guy out, but they did give him the regular vein cocktail before they did his teeth. I imagine they could have gotten quite a lot done without it though and just the affects of the gel.
I feel your pain on the shots IV. I had a vet out ( Not my regular) and my horse needed sedation. After the 3rd try on the vein I finally yanked that needle out of the vets hands and told her to hold my horse. I hit the vein first try! |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I can't speak from experience, I've only ever had 2 vets do my horse's teeth...I used the vet at our local clinic for many, many years, and when he retired I started taking them to a bigger vet clinic up north. They have a couple of vets that mainly just do dental work.
There is another guy who is not a vet that a lot of people I know have used with no problems as well. I really think it just depends.
I will say that as far as vets go, I won't let just any vet do their teeth. I think all vets have something they're good at or kind of specialize in, and I didn't feel comfortable letting any of the other vets at my local clinic do it. I know they know how to float teeth but I also know they don't do it very often. |
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Badonkadonk
Posts: 4189
Location: Mississippi | I use an equine dentist. That is ALL he does. It is what he specializes in. I've had more vets mess up horses mouths than dentists so I only use my dentist. I also don't use different dentist just the one. He goes all over and comes to my house to do mine. As far as problems giving sedations...those same problems can happen at a vet clinic. To each their own. |
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| My experiences with vets doing my horses teeth has been poor at best. They are meant to preform dentistry on horses that are pasture pets IMO. I do agree with whoever stated they were missing a large market! I have been exteremly impressed with horse dentists that do performance horse dentistry. As far as them giving your horse an iv, that is sketch to me. And if they couldn't hit the vein Id probably just end up doing it myself, or if neither one of you could hit the vein Id say "never mind". Honestly if they can't hit the vein they probably haven't done enough horses teeth to be any good at it. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| Brittany - 2015-03-19 10:34 AM I use an equine dentist. That is ALL he does. It is what he specializes in. I've had more vets mess up horses mouths than dentists so I only use my dentist. I also don't use different dentist just the one. He goes all over and comes to my house to do mine. As far as problems giving sedations...those same problems can happen at a vet clinic. To each their own.
I think the argument against this is that IF there is an issue with the sedation at a vet clinic, there are far more resources available to take care of the horse and minimize the complications. Personally, I believe it really depends on the individual. There are vets who are great at dentistry, and vets who are terrible at it. There are also dentists out there who are great at their jobs and those that are terrible. |
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Non-veterinary equine-dentist's, yay or nay?