AngieM1 - 2015-03-27 9:39 AM Im a huge fan of Tom Balding bits, and Mylers. Made to last. The younger horses (i feel) take to the broken mouth piece style bits, the rollers, dog bones etc. I find it protects the bars of the mouth, making it much easier for them to accept the but instead of evading it. The First bit you have listed reminds me of a Tom Thumb, which (again my opinion only) is a terrible bit with basically zero lift, bend or give. If you are looking to supple (which you should be in a young horse) in my opinion.. the second bit is a much better choice.

TheDutchMan01 - 2015-03-27 9:46 AM Neither of these are good. If the horse is only 3 you should only be using some kind of snaffle whether it be a loose ring or d ring. No shanked bits on colts!!!

cheryl makofka - 2015-03-27 10:08 AM On the second bit, it is not a roller as per say. The first bit when you pull on the reins which ever way, the bit collapses and squeezes the tongue, giving the horse the same pressure for all pressure. The second bit the mouth piece doesn't collapse like the first one, and under the middle bar is like a ball bearing which makes each side independent of the other when you only pull on one side. I agree with others, the first bit is crap. Due to the horse being so young, I won't put a shanked bit on a horse till they are broke. The length of the shanks impacts the pressure on their mouth. The longer the bottom part (shank) the more leverage you have, so when you are pulling with a finger, you are actually excreting more like three fingers of pressure as compared to a o ring snaffle. The top part (the purchase) affects the poll pressure, the longer this, the more pressure is applied to their poll. So with this bit trying to teach a horse to collect is a little harder as the ratio is not a 1:1 it is a 1:2 which means you have more shoulder and head elevation. With this bit on a young horse you may come into problems later on as used improperly will dull a mouth and when this happens you will need to go up in bit severity, and once you start going up there will come a time nothing will work.

TheDutchMan01 - 2015-03-27 10:46 AM

Neither of these are good. If the horse is only 3 you should only be using some kind of snaffle whether it be a loose ring or d ring. No shanked bits on colts!!!

americanpride08 - 2015-03-27 9:57 AM

Could you perhaps explain this to me? =) 


Also, theres a couple of D ring snaffles with the roller that I've ridden him in that I like him in. But there's not much of difference in his response between the D ring and the shank version of the same bit.

just so I make sure I have this right, the D ring is where the reins connect right? and the shank is a long verison of the same thing with no movement allowed of the reins??

americanpride08 - 2015-03-27 10:20 AM


Do you have any pictures of bits that you recommend for a younger horse?

Thank you for the information. I'm trying to self educate here. I'm always asking questions, and I'm trying to hard to make sure I set Bug up the right way. There's so much to know!!! He's my first baby, my first quarter horse. So I'm just a much of a beginner as he is. That and, when I did ride ( gaited spotted saddle) he was dead broke, and I had no 'horsey' friends to ride with or around. My family was not very horsey, so everything I know lol it self taught. Which can lead to success or unknown mistakes.

so sincere thanks for any assistance. =) 

TheDutchMan01 - 2015-03-27 12:28 PM


A snaffle is any bit that has a circular "shank" whether that be a ring, a d ring, or an offset d.

I'll do my best to explain it, but it's mostly just the basic way every horse is started. You can to start them out with a bit light as possible and something that the learn by direct contact. A snaffle only works on the bars of the horses mouth. You get them light and responsive in it and to do all the basic maneuvers before advancing them. If the horse stays responsive in a snaffle than there really is no reason to use a bigger bit. However, in barrel racing as you increase speed you may need something with more bend and flex and maybe simply need more whoa. For bend and flex you go to a bit with some gag action which works off of the corners of their mouth, the bars, and their pole. For whoa the more shank, the more pressure it's going to apply. Also any bit with a chin strap is going to add another element of pressure and increase the severity of the action to the bars.

You want to start them in a snaffle so that they learn to give in to the least amount of pressure possible. It's just part of the basic foundation of a horse. In any command you ask with the least amount of pressure and increase the pressure when they don't respond. Also you have to remember as a 2/3 yr old they are still babies. Their mouths are still forming and they are very sensitive. If you start out in a harsh but and toughen their mouth up what happens when they are 5? Or 10 and they have no mouth and you can't find a bit big enough to get a response?

You would start with a smooth mouthpiece and go to a twisted, chain, or even square if needed. I have never used a square mouthpiece. I prefer a small twist or just go up to a bigger bit.

astreakinchic - 2015-03-27 11:07 AM Disagree but I'm a futurity person and by the time they are 3 they better be a good broke riding horse and stepping up to some other bits. Staying in a snaffle too long isn't necessarily the best option for some colts. Also, other people will buy and ride our horses and they have different hands then ours so we want to make sure they experience different bits and headgear every now and then so they aren't one of those 7 yr olds that gets and bonnet put on them and freaks and flips over.

TheDutchMan01 - 2015-03-27 1:41 PM


 Futurity horses are different and when you have deadline to make their training gets put on fast forward. I totally agree that once you start patterning them, most of them are going to have to go to a bigger bit but I would have to go through many lighter ones before I put a 7" locked shank bit on one. I have no issue moving one up when they are further in their training, but a coming 3 yr old is too young for such a harsh bit.  When you are building a foundation on a young horse a snaffle is the starting point.

cheryl makofka - 2015-03-27 12:34 PM Sorry, I can't post pictures, I am computer illiterate. I start all my horses in a o ring snaffle with a dog bone, a smooth mouth piece is the softest, the more twist, the more severe. I will move up to a sweet six mouth piece, this has gag action, so it applies poll pressure, I use a lifesaver mouthpiece, this mouthpiece works similar to the dog bone, but they have pressure in the middle of their tongue. I have just started using a draw gag with a three piece with horses that are a little front end heavy With these bits, my horse must have the basic reining/working cow handle on them, stop, back up, collect, reverse arcing, turning on haunches, loping nice circles, shoulder control, and very light, mostly leg control. I will even start my horses on the pattern with either bit, I will move up when I start having issues with shoulder control, rate, body position, etc. When I move up, I like gag bits as it gives the horse more time to respond, the pressure isn't instant. I am a fan of the myler number 1 mouth pieces, and I really like the Lynn Mackenzie line of Mylers I can't remember the bit number I use but I think is its a MM3. I also like Dave Elliott bits, they are pricey but are exceptionally made, the spur up 1 and 2 is what I have one in a Mullen and one in a 3 piece. This gag has a 1:1 ratio when sitting in the mouth so it gives even poll pressure and shank pressure The Sheri cervi diamond lifter short shank, I use on my patterned almost finished horses when I need a little more rate and flex, this bit is heavy When I need a lot of rate on my first, due to the horse not rating down or being more of a free runner (I like push) I have went to a Charmayne James grasshopper chain (chain is quite severe as compared to smooth due to all ridges) it has equal ratio, no gag, and the shanks are not swept back much so when I pull I get instant reaction, but I have to release right away or it will hang. Even if I am using a shanked bit, I will generally ride in a o ring (dutton bits make some nice o ring/draw gag bits, they keep the mouth very moist) at home working on their buttons, getting them nice, light and responsive.

americanpride08 - 2015-03-27 12:51 PM


 Well he's pretty flexible in the mouth. And I guess maybe it's just a fluke that he's done so well and I've lacked all this knownledge. haha, but should I be riding him in something like this first, since we obviously completely missed this bit.



or should I go ahead and skip to a bit more like this?? Lol if these are even what you talking about. I may not be understanding 100%




 

oija - 2015-03-27 12:56 PM http://horse-pros.com/tack/bits/snaffle-bits

americanpride08 - 2015-03-27 12:59 PM

All the quoting is making this page scroll happy. ha ha,

What about this bit? I found that he really likes the rolls ( correct term?? ) simply because he's slightly busy minded. I've noticed that he's often focused on playing with it more when he's worried instead looking for 'boogey men' and it has dramatically cut his spook action. lol 

oija - 2015-03-27 12:40 PM While all horses move into shanked bits at different times, I do think a good point was made about starting in an o-ring or d-ring. However it sounds like the OP wants the very basic basics. No one has really answered that yet so I'll try. First of all anything placed on the head of a horse puts pressure on it. The places where that pressure can be exerted are on the nose (nose piece, halter, hackamore, side pull), the corners of the mouth (all bits and most especially gags), the tongue (again all bits), the roof of the mouth (ported bits and two piece snaffles), the bars (open gum area between the front and back teeth which all bits will sit on--obviously affected by any actual bit), the chin (affected by a curb strap--not all bits have these or make contact so it may not be a point of contact), and the poll (or top of the head, which shanked bits, hacks, and gag bits affect). With a young horse, the general rule of thumb is the fewer places that are touched and affected by a bit or head piece the better. Its confusing enough to get used to the saddle, a rider, and being told to go places. If you are being told to do things in 6 different ways instead of 2 its even more confusing. A smart young horse will eventually figure it all out in any bit but they learn faster and usually fight you less if they are told in 2 ways instead of 6. Many young horses are started in a rope halter or bosal for this reason. They are already halter broke and know to turn, stop, or back up based on nose pressure so this makes sense to them. What's the best things about a simple o ring or d rings with a two or three piece mouth (no port--raised portion), is that it still operates on direct rein pressure. If you pull right, they go right. There are also fewer points of contact. A basic o ring or d ring operates on the corner of the mouth, a bit on the tongue, and the bars of the mouth. Some people add a curb strap under the chin but loosely, just to keep the bit from being pulled through a young horse's mouth. After they are used to this basic direct pressure, then people will add the curb strap tighter so you also add a new pressure point on the chin. Eventually people work up to some kind of shanked bit like the two you show and this adds pressure to the top of the head. Then they may choose to have a ported or raised mouthpiece which adds further pressure to the roof of the mouth. As they progress and need less and less direction from you they can move into more and more pressure points. Its really a lot like math. You need to learn how to add and subtract before you multiply and divide.

americanpride08 - 2015-03-27 12:59 PM

All the quoting is making this page scroll happy. ha ha,

What about this bit? I found that he really likes the rolls ( correct term?? ) simply because he's slightly busy minded. I've noticed that he's often focused on playing with it more when he's worried instead looking for 'boogey men' and it has dramatically cut his spook action. lol 

oija - 2015-03-27 12:40 PM

While all horses move into shanked bits at different times, I do think a good point was made about starting in an o-ring or d-ring. However it sounds like the OP wants the very basic basics. No one has really answered that yet so I'll try.

First of all anything placed on the head of a horse puts pressure on it. The places where that pressure can be exerted are on the nose (nose piece, halter, hackamore, side pull), the corners of the mouth (all bits and most especially gags), the tongue (again all bits), the roof of the mouth (ported bits and two piece snaffles), the bars (open gum area between the front and back teeth which all bits will sit on--obviously affected by any actual bit), the chin (affected by a curb strap--not all bits have these or make contact so it may not be a point of contact), and the poll (or top of the head, which shanked bits, hacks, and gag bits affect).

With a young horse, the general rule of thumb is the fewer places that are touched and affected by a bit or head piece the better. Its confusing enough to get used to the saddle, a rider, and being told to go places. If you are being told to do things in 6 different ways instead of 2 its even more confusing. A smart young horse will eventually figure it all out in any bit but they learn faster and usually fight you less if they are told in 2 ways instead of 6. Many young horses are started in a rope halter or bosal for this reason. They are already halter broke and know to turn, stop, or back up based on nose pressure so this makes sense to them. What's the best things about a simple o ring or d rings with a two or three piece mouth (no port--raised portion), is that it still operates on direct rein pressure. If you pull right, they go right. There are also fewer points of contact. A basic o ring or d ring operates on the corner of the mouth, a bit on the tongue, and the bars of the mouth. Some people add a curb strap under the chin but loosely, just to keep the bit from being pulled through a young horse's mouth. After they are used to this basic direct pressure, then people will add the curb strap tighter so you also add a new pressure point on the chin. Eventually people work up to some kind of shanked bit like the two you show and this adds pressure to the top of the head. Then they may choose to have a ported or raised mouthpiece which adds further pressure to the roof of the mouth. As they progress and need less and less direction from you they can move into more and more pressure points.

Its really a lot like math. You need to learn how to add and subtract before you multiply and divide.

cheryl makofka - 2015-03-27 1:46 PM


I will disagree with you on the port part.

If you listen to myler's philosophy who has done research and has X-rays, skeletons to prove their point, not all ports will hit the palate.

I do know there are exceptions to the rule and some horses have a shallow palate, not the majority.

Myler does have a line and I can't remember the mouthpiece number that the port only allows tongue relief, no roof pressure. In the lecture I attended they said on average a horse needs a 3" port to affect the roof, if the bit is positioned properly.

Also watching their lecture and speaking to them, they also disagree with the single broken o ring snaffle hitting the roof, and just by mechanics of an o ring, I can't see how it could, as when you pull the bit collapses it doesn't specifically move up, or down, it will move in the path of least resistance with factoring in gravity generally not up.

americanpride08 - 2015-03-27 1:04 PM I actually spent all day reading this yesterday evening, and several of it's other article links. I'm a hands on learner. =P it's hard for me to connect the dots unless I actively participate to see results. So it took me a min to catch on to the subtle differences, like the wired vs smooth ect.  

oija - 2015-03-27 2:12 PM My filly has a very small mouth. Trust me, if you are pulling back and a regular size snaffle is "collapsing" or coming together, the top joint hits the roof of her mouth. In a bigger horse I would agree with you but many smaller horses have narrow chins and this allows the o ring when pulled down a bit to raise the joint enough to potentially hit the roof of the mouth. I prefer her in a dogbone for this reason. I can see your point on ports but again there are exceptions. I think it is important for the OP to understand these types of bits CAN hit the roof of the mouth, thought they may not always. That way she understands that this may be an additional pressure point to investigate. Especially as she is starting him in a bit that already is operating on several. I think initial poll pressure, especially in a bit you are trying to use for more direct reining, can be particularly confusing for a young horse.

oija - 2015-03-27 6:30 PM I thoroughly agree with Cheryl on the Myler bits. They are top notch. I would honestly go with a three piece dog bone d ring or o ring to start with but something with a leverage ring like she describes because he's already used to some poll pressure. Look at Myler's Regular Snaffle Line Single and Double Jointed mouthpieces, # 10. http://mylerbitsusa.com/onetes3.html#regular_snaffle Cheekpiece #20 (or if you wanted a bit more leverage for poll pressure and stop since he is used to this already--Cheekpiece # 11). http://mylerbitsusa.com/onetes3.html#bitshanks

TheDutchMan01 - 2015-03-27 10:46 AM Neither of these are good. If the horse is only 3 you should only be using some kind of snaffle whether it be a loose ring or d ring. No shanked bits on colts!!!

americanpride08 - 2015-03-30 7:28 AM

Okay Sooo. I took the information I gathered from all you ladies, and put it to use. 
We tried this bit. AND I HATED IT. he was so bracey, and all the sudden VERY hard to keep in control. I had to get in the mouth a LOT. Which I've never had to do in the other bits I had been using. I went from riding a mature horse, to a very obnoxious two year old. Lol 

One I tried him in  (below)





These are the bits I have access too... ( below)














I've ridden him in both of these and he did great in both.












The bridal I rode him in most of the time is the first one of those two bits.  We've been doing roll backs, since about december. We're also doing sliding stops, spins, and we've progressed in the flying lead change area. He collects awesomely in that bit, and isn't at all bracey. I dont have to get in his face. For some reason, the first bit in these pictures, he didn't respond at all. 

I haven't ruined my horse have I??? lol I wasn't even remotely aware of what kind of bits he needed to start in. But I trusted Charlie in that department. ( He probably started him in something different, but the figure 8 is what he was in, in december when I got him back from training. Though I changed from that bit to the other one shortly after. )

americanpride08 - 2015-03-30 12:37 PM

isn't the (3rd pic) of the 2nd snaffle a 3 piece snaffel? Is that what I should be trying him in??

I'm just trying to work out where I need to start and work my way back up. He's a LOT of attitude in one horse when he gets a wild hair. I'm not going to pretend like I know what I'm talking about with all these bits. Which is why I'm seeking advice.


Also, when I tried the bit in the first picture ( in most recent post) he was all over the place. And I really had to work to steer him. Legs, seat, hands. He actually almost dumped me once from changing directions on me so fast. SOOO I lunged him a good bit, and when he settled he did much better. ( I found out earlier that he had actually been stalled two days straight, the afternoon feeder forgot to turn him out. So he had a lot of pent up energy. Which may be why he was so all over the place. He's not a horse I would ever keep stalled without reason. He only happened to be up to have his feet trimmed that morning. )

I'm going to give it another go this evening, in a smaller work area, to just work on the basics. 

cheryl makofka - 2015-03-30 1:33 PM Why I said the last picture, only if it is a true myler, as you had success with the tom balding in a shanked bit. This way the mouthpiece is familiar. I will add to say if it is a tom balding bit or a myler I would choose that one for the reason above If it isn't one of the two bit makers, I would go to the three piece, but this is my personal bias, I don't like single broken bits. Also I can't tell from the picture how the mouthpiece is shaped, and works. As I said I don't particularly like any of them as they all have a fixed mouthpiece, meaning fixed to the cheek pieces.

americanpride08 - 2015-03-30 2:18 PM  I asked and yes they're myler bits. I spoke with charlie and Kate about Bug. They said they worked with him progressively in a snaffle, but Charlie preferred the results they received from a curb??? She told me he works best in a 3 piece and that and the myers are appropriate for him. I trust her judgement because she a phenomenal rider.

She told me riding him in a snaffle requires a lot more leg instruction, that in curb he tends to stay in the bridal more and so his body is where it's needed without a lot of intensive leg manuevering.



me<---- over here still clueless. This started a simple instruction to bits. Now I'm worried about my horses mouth being ruined. =/  I don't like the amount of countrol I feel that I lack in that particular snaffle that I tried him in. But I want him to have good solid foundation. Defintely going to give it another go today.  



 

lindseylou2290 - 2015-03-30 3:49 PM Ok - I understand where ya are coming from.  



Snaffle's don't have any curb -chain action. You ask/pull with the reins and you'll get a direct contact with that side of the mouth.  The curb chain that runs under the chin is the piece that encourages the face to give to your hands and eventually will teach poll pressure. It is the piece that gives you leverage when you ask with a shanked bit - it is also important to adjust this correctly on a young horse - too tight and they'll overreact to the new/different pressure.  



If you haven't taught your horse to just give or soften when you pick up the reins, then yup, he'll feel like a run-away 2 year old.  (I have learned this the hard way) You'll find holes in training sometimes when you go "back" in bits to a snaffle.  The shanked bit that you posted above looks like a nice myler.  I use this on older horses that have basic concepts down pat - like giving in a snaffle, moving off leg cues, holding their rib cages up in correct collection, and more advanced moves.  



Charlie has it right when speaking with you - the shanked myler you posted is a 3 piece and is a great bit if the horse is to that point in training.  If he's newly coming out of a snaffle into a shanked bit ... go with a shorter shank.  The longer shanks with newer ametuer riders can hurt more than help without proper instruction and oversight.  If you need to use more leg with a snaffle, ya may have missed a couple steps in teaching your horse to properly carry themselves without you holding them together .... There's much said about this in the reining world and conflicting ideas on how to acheive it.  



I think you'll be just fine and Charlie sounds like a great in person source to keep working with! Good Luck! 

americanpride08 - 2015-04-22 8:43 AM

 So my gelding is working great in a basic snaffle. I have noticed that we need to work on woahing more and backing better. Somehow that has slipped and I took notice of it the other day.


Any who. he's been 'mouthing' his bit a lot, and I think I'm losing his attention in this particular bit. I notice with the ones that have 'rollers' or something for his tongue to play with that hes much more quiet minded while riding. I ran across this bit the other day in the barn. Pros and cons?? Do you think this would help quiet him without being a severe bit? 



help me out again ladies !

oija - 2015-04-22 8:52 AM Yes, that roller should keep his mouth happier. You have also moved from a curb (shanked bit) to a snaffle which is gentler BUT doesn't have as much whoa and won't make him back up as well because you've lost poll pressure. So . . . you need to get him softer. What are you doing right now, in order, to ask him to stop? Be very specific about each part of your body. Do you do it any differently at different speeds. Do you have video?

americanpride08 - 2015-04-22 9:27 AM

I'm going to try to get a video this evening or Friday when I go ride. The problem I think is I'm still learning so much about my own body language that I'm confusing the crap out of him -sigh- I need lessons, but honestly just don't have the money to throw at them right now with all the other projects I've got going to get the fence up and him moved back home, getting the barn up and the corral panels needs for a large round pen.

I'm trying really hard to woah with my body. By sitting deeper,  saying woah,putting my feet forward and down in the stirrups, picking UP on the reins . but I stil feel like I'm having to get in his mouth too much to ask for a stop. . .  because after intially asking he just keeps going, so I tug very lightly on indivdual sides to ask for a stop. Still no woah. Practically having to walk/trot him straight at the fence to get him to halt all of the sudden. At a lope he woahs great. It's just the trot and walk. I think I might be able to 'sit deeper' more easily at a lope and at a walk and trot I'm loosing some of the process or something. He flexes good in circles to the left and right, we have great lateral movement. 

americanpride08 - 2015-04-22 9:27 AM

I'm going to try to get a video this evening or Friday when I go ride. The problem I think is I'm still learning so much about my own body language that I'm confusing the crap out of him -sigh- I need lessons, but honestly just don't have the money to throw at them right now with all the other projects I've got going to get the fence up and him moved back home, getting the barn up and the corral panels needs for a large round pen.

I'm trying really hard to woah with my body. By sitting deeper,  saying woah,putting my feet forward and down in the stirrups, picking UP on the reins . but I stil feel like I'm having to get in his mouth too much to ask for a stop. . .  because after intially asking he just keeps going, so I tug very lightly on indivdual sides to ask for a stop. Still no woah. Practically having to walk/trot him straight at the fence to get him to halt all of the sudden. At a lope he woahs great. It's just the trot and walk. I think I might be able to 'sit deeper' more easily at a lope and at a walk and trot I'm loosing some of the process or something. He flexes good in circles to the left and right, we have great lateral movement. 

americanpride08 - 2015-04-22 11:21 AM

Unfortunately clinics and stuff are out of my price budget right now. I'm trying to get my fence and stuff up so that I can move him from the barn I board at. Though, once he's back out there I'm planning on taking lessons as I'll have large area to work in once it's all done.

I feel like he's stopped respecting any kind of pull/tug motion to his mouth as far as going in a straight line to stop. IF I stop him in a very slow 'emergency stop' fashion he will or if I"m at a lope he'll stop without any mouth contact but lifting the reins.  

americanpride08 - 2015-04-22 11:21 AM

Unfortunately clinics and stuff are out of my price budget right now. I'm trying to get my fence and stuff up so that I can move him from the barn I board at. Though, once he's back out there I'm planning on taking lessons as I'll have large area to work in once it's all done.

I feel like he's stopped respecting any kind of pull/tug motion to his mouth as far as going in a straight line to stop. IF I stop him in a very slow 'emergency stop' fashion he will or if I"m at a lope he'll stop without any mouth contact but lifting the reins.  

EqualRanch - 2015-04-22 3:30 PM Does he listen and respond well to the bit when you are on the ground? 
I have always been told (and I do agree, especially with a snaffle) that if your horse won't listen and respect the bit on the ground, why would you expect them to listen when your on their back.... 

In my opinion if a horse isn't working in a snaffle, they won't work in anything.
This is hypothetical, if you stick a 6" shank in his mouth now, what are you going to do when you gradually add speed and need a quicker "whoa", just find a bit with a longer shank? No, that doesn't make any sense. 
At this level, you shouldn't be changing bits to "fix" him.  
Keep working on it, use your legs, soft hands and ask more of him only after he listens. This is his foundation that will remain with him throughout his life, just remember "slow and correct".

americanpride08 - 2015-04-22 3:57 PM The bit change wasn't to fix the woah problem. The bit change is because he's very busy minded and settles better with a roller on his bits. I was asking if it would still be about the same level of bit but with a roller

EqualRanch - 2015-04-22 4:40 PM Yes, the last picture would be about the same level as a snaffle with a roller. 

All the other bits you posted pictures of, especially the first two and the shank bit, shouldn't be anywhere near your horse until he will do anything you ask of him. 

We have ranch horses that are 8-10 years old and still ride in a snaffle, because their mouth is that soft and they still listen to it. So there is no point in putting a shank bit in their mouth - if it's not broke, don't fix it. 



Anyways....  I hope one of us has been helpful and it's starting to make a little more sense.