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 Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
  
Location: New Sharon, IA | Any x-ray experts here that know what navicular might look like on an xray? A vet last week told me my horse is possibly navicular. Symptoms are... he is rough and choppy going around his barrels. He does NOT shuffle his feet and he lands heel first. He is not noticably lame when moving out. Vet says she did a flex test below the fetlock and he was head bobbing lame. Vet said on soft ground he did not show anything. On hard ground to the left he appeared a little off but to the right he was not. Vet said he was positive to hoof testers on the heel side, farrier said he did not get a reaction to hoof testers the next day on the heels. Horse is 9 years old. We have only had him since October. His angles were off and my farrier fixed that on Friday. He rode fine with my daughter yesterday and was not rough at all. Nearly all vet work was done while I was not there. This was done at the trainer before I was able to make it there after work. I brought him home from the trainer that day though per recommendation from the vet although he was supposed to be at the trainer another 2 weeks.
Edited by CwgrlTuffTurnin3 2015-03-30 7:21 AM
 (Bugs xray left front 2nd view.jpg)
 (bugs xray left front back view navicular bone.jpg)
 (Bugs xray left front side view.jpg)
 (Bugs xray right front side view.jpg)
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 Bugs xray left front 2nd view.jpg (18KB - 219 downloads)
bugs xray left front back view navicular bone.jpg (48KB - 143 downloads)
Bugs xray left front side view.jpg (20KB - 138 downloads)
Bugs xray right front side view.jpg (35KB - 141 downloads)
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | What did your vet say about the huge side bone ? That could be the a big source of his pain. I would at least have him block the sidebone locally and see if he improves before you proceed.
******Actually looking at the xray again, it looks like the sidebbone might have fractured. Hard to tell from this particular xray.
Edited by Liana D 2015-03-30 8:33 AM
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | The vet actually said the side bone should not be causing him pain and that she did not feel he was "off" enough to block him. She stated the side bone had a lot of calcification but no pain.
If the sidebone is the cause of him being "off", what can be done about it?
Edited by CwgrlTuffTurnin3 2015-03-30 8:35 AM
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | The sidebone is big enough to cause a bump in the soft tissue, that means it's rubbing into the collateral cartilage, which is painful. If he was mine I would want to rule it out.
Side ones can be injected locally with Serapin and steroids. Proper shoeing so the horse hits the ground level instead of pounding the lateral branch is a must. All you can do is "manage" it once it's developed.
Edited by Liana D 2015-03-30 8:42 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| On the last picture it looks like the coffin bone is fractured.
I would rule out the side bones, also I would shorten the toe. |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | cheryl makofka - 2015-03-30 9:27 AM On the last picture it looks like the coffin bone is fractured. I would rule out the side bones, also I would shorten the toe.
I do see that on the coffin bone now that you mention it however the vet did not point that out? What can I do to rule out side bones if the vet did not think they were an issue?
The toe was shortened 1/2" the day after these xrays were taken. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Liana D - 2015-03-30 8:39 AM
The sidebone is big enough to cause a bump in the soft tissue, that means it's rubbing into the collateral cartilage, which is painful. If he was mine I would want to rule it out.
Side ones can be injected locally with Serapin and steroids. Proper shoeing so the horse hits the ground level instead of pounding the lateral branch is a must. All you can do is "manage" it once it's developed.
side bone is the mineralization of the collateral cartilages so i don't see how they would be rubbing them. they are them.
To the OP- I can see some changes, the radiographs aren't the best quality. the stuff he circled is normally there but may be enlarged. Also, I would have liked to see more distinction between the cortex and medulla of the navicular bone.
I don't think the coffin bone is fractured, but I see what you see in that last view. I would definitely want to maybe get a different set of films maybe from someone else that can give a better picture. Were they digital radiographs? There's just not a lot of contrast.
Edited by casualdust07 2015-03-30 9:55 AM
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | casualdust07 - 2015-03-30 9:53 AM Liana D - 2015-03-30 8:39 AM The sidebone is big enough to cause a bump in the soft tissue, that means it's rubbing into the collateral cartilage, which is painful. If he was mine I would want to rule it out. Side ones can be injected locally with Serapin and steroids. Proper shoeing so the horse hits the ground level instead of pounding the lateral branch is a must. All you can do is "manage" it once it's developed. side bone is the mineralization of the collateral cartilages so i don't see how they would be rubbing them. they are them. To the OP- I can see some changes, the radiographs aren't the best quality. the stuff he circled is normally there but may be enlarged. Also, I would have liked to see more distinction between the cortex and medulla of the navicular bone. I don't think the coffin bone is fractured, but I see what you see in that last view. I would definitely want to maybe get a different set of films maybe from someone else that can give a better picture. Were they digital radiographs? There's just not a lot of contrast.
Would that side bone be causing the pain in the left front? He does move off at all but the vet claims on hard surface to the left when turned sharply he was off. This was observed while I was gone so I did not get to see it for myself. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | CwgrlTuffTurnin3 - 2015-03-30 9:57 AM
casualdust07 - 2015-03-30 9:53 AM Liana D - 2015-03-30 8:39 AM The sidebone is big enough to cause a bump in the soft tissue, that means it's rubbing into the collateral cartilage, which is painful. If he was mine I would want to rule it out. Side ones can be injected locally with Serapin and steroids. Proper shoeing so the horse hits the ground level instead of pounding the lateral branch is a must. All you can do is "manage" it once it's developed. side bone is the mineralization of the collateral cartilages so i don't see how they would be rubbing them. they are them. To the OP- I can see some changes, the radiographs aren't the best quality. the stuff he circled is normally there but may be enlarged. Also, I would have liked to see more distinction between the cortex and medulla of the navicular bone. I don't think the coffin bone is fractured, but I see what you see in that last view. I would definitely want to maybe get a different set of films maybe from someone else that can give a better picture. Were they digital radiographs? There's just not a lot of contrast.
usually sidebone is an incidental finding and doesn't cause problems. But that's not to say it won't sometimes.
did your vet do any nerve blocks and if so, what did he block out to? |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I've had side bone cause career ending problems... |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| Side bone and navicular but those X-rays are bad |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1037
| You might have a VERY VERY small chip in that last x-ray of the coffin joint, but very hard to read with that 1 xray... Might also be some scar tissue.. Sure doesn't look completely clean to me. I just dealt with a left front coffin joint chip and my gelding was SEVERELY lame. You could clearly see the chip in his x-rays.
Prayers for your pony and that you get some answers! |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I reread your original post.. I mean, I'm really not sold on his diagnosis yet. Was the vet you went to a specialist?
When you flex the fetlock you really don't know WHAT was hurting, because you can't isolate just the fetlock from the rest of the foot when flexing.. hard to do. I would like to do nerve blocks and see how far down in the foot he blocks out.
I have a horse who would have had a similar report on that lameness exam, minus the sidebone. she travels fine on soft ground, but in circles on asphalt looks bad. we tried leather pads, didn't help on asphalt. tried soft rides.. but those are only good when she's wearing them... finally injected coffin joints.
I would consider getting a second opinion. I understand how much those radiographs probably cost you though :/ |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | astreakinchic - 2015-03-30 10:21 AM
I've had side bone cause career ending problems...
thats why i said usually not a problem, but can be one. |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | The vet did not nerve block because the vet stated he wasn't off enough to be able to see anything with nerve blocking. This horse is not visibly lame in any way. He is just "rough" when turning his barrels. |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | casualdust07 - 2015-03-30 10:24 AM I reread your original post.. I mean, I'm really not sold on his diagnosis yet. Was the vet you went to a specialist? When you flex the fetlock you really don't know WHAT was hurting, because you can't isolate just the fetlock from the rest of the foot when flexing.. hard to do. I would like to do nerve blocks and see how far down in the foot he blocks out. I have a horse who would have had a similar report on that lameness exam, minus the sidebone. she travels fine on soft ground, but in circles on asphalt looks bad. we tried leather pads, didn't help on asphalt. tried soft rides.. but those are only good when she's wearing them... finally injected coffin joints. I would consider getting a second opinion. I understand how much those radiographs probably cost you though :/
No this vet was not a specialist. The xrays were done by portable xray machine. This is the first time I have ever had xrays done so I know nothing about the "quality" of the xrays.
These xrays alone were $340. Before I put more money into this, I would like to kind of know where to start! The vet stated she thought it was isolated to the left front which is why we have more xrays of that one. |
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Veteran
Posts: 278
Location: Whitney, NE | Do some research and figure out who the best vet you could feasibly get to is. Then send them the X-rays and see what they have to say. They may charge for the consultation, but you will move in a good direction with a more specialized vet. |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | I wouldn't put a whole lot of weight on the vet diagnosing the horse navicular off those x-rays. A lot of horses show changes on the navicular bone & are perfectly sound. The sidebone does stand out to me as a possible problem though. And it also looks to me like the foot is not balanced, but i really say if it's the trim or if the vet didn't have him standing perfectly level. |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | He was standing on a 2x4 on dirt. I will agree that his angles were off and my farrier addressed this the next day. I asked the vet how I would know he was better without xrays again and she said you would know because he would be smoother to ride and he would be better right away if his feet were corrected. I dont ride him, my daughter does, so I cant tell you if he is any smoother to ride or not? |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | CasualDust07:
You are totally correct. Sidebone is calcification of the collateral cartilage. What I meant to say was collateral LIGAMENTS.
To the OP, yes, sound straight away, bump gimping on the inside of the turn totally goes along with sidebone pain.
The sidebone is on the outside of the foot, so as he's turning he's hitting the side with the sidebone first.
I think you need more information and testing from a good vet so you can manage/treat the problem. |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | Shared the X-rays with Dr. Gordon for a 2nd opinion. He said he sees changes to the navicular bone but would not diagnose him with navicular disease. He said he sees a couple Spurs as well. He said the side bone is not an issue. He does have calcification of his ligaments. He said I should treat with a balanced barefoot trim and try 2grams of bute every day for a week. If I see improvements then he will prescribe previcox. Has anyone tried the Equibone product? |
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 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| I would be irritated at the vet for the quality of the radiographes they are sub par. |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | Thistle2011 - 2015-03-30 10:55 PM
I would be irritated at the vet for the quality of the radiographes they are sub par.
This is actually the first set of xrays I have ever had taken of any of my horses so I had nothing to compare them to. They were done at the horse trainers barn with a portable xray machine. |
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 No Name Nancy
Posts: 2715
Location: never in the right place | Yes to the Equibone. I had a MRI done on my horses foot as he was very lame for months. He has a hole in his navicular the size of a pencil eraser. I did equibone for 7 months only mixed with beet pulp and this horse has been sound for almost 3 yrs now but he has not had a heavy work load. this year will be the test as he is my only horse now and will get used more than before. the reason I stopped using the Equibone is because my horse would no longer eat the beet pulp, the calcium/phosphorate ratio had to be a certain percent and my grain wouldn't work and they wouldn't suggest one to feed. bottom line is I believe if I could afford another MRI that the hole would be significantly closed or gone. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1161
| My horse has been on Equi Bone for years now no problems with his navicular just everywhere else! He also had a spur.. The day I took him in to the vet he was dead lame could hardly walk. One vet said he wouldnt last more than two years this was 5 years ago. oh and he is also barefoot. Good Luck to you |
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | I just purchased the Equibone so we will see what happens! This horse is also barefoot now and his feet are headed down the right track, it will just take awhile to get there! Thank you everyone for the input! |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Equibone might help but Osphos is definitely something I would getting for this horse. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 336
Location: Missouri | You really aren't that far from Columbia, Missouri. The University has two top notch lameness vets there. Both are awesome to work with. They aren't as expensive as you might think. Actually, I'm pretty sure those xrays would cost you LESS there. They also have the lameness locator, which is not only a good diagnostic tool when they aren't dead lame, but it's pretty cool and informative to see. Dr. Kramer ROCKS and she is awesome about explaining everything, options, costs, and their follow up to email questions is unbeatable. (573)882-3513 I wouldn't hesitate to haul there - in fact if I need anything other than basic stuff I just load and head there. It's money AND time well spent. |
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| Find a specialized vet like the above poster recommended. Take those x-rays and explain how much you have already put in, some vets will cut you a deal or not do as many on the next x-ray. One thing I've learned is find a specialized vet, but also one that understands your budget and wishes.
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Fluffy Tuffy
Posts: 10343
Location: New Sharon, IA | I did send these xrays to another vet for a second opinion. The 2nd vet is a lameness specialist. |
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