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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
 
Location: My own little world :) | I was curious about the pros and cons of injecting joints with HA and steroids. What are your experiences with it? Does it have any long term consequences involved? Will horses deteriorate faster? Etc..??? Thanks :) |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | There's a TON of info on here. I'd do a search. Also, it is pretty case specific what/when/where to inject - I'd just talk to your vet. What makes you think your horse needs injections? Where? Has he had scans done? What does your vet say? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| Trimethisclione is the only steroid that has the studies showing a benefit
Depo medrol and betamethasone have studies showing long term cartilage damage, these will actually errode or eat away at the remaining cartilage
Depo has been showen to prevent healing for month after injection due to the metabolites left behind
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | svincent - 2015-04-05 5:26 PM
There's a TON of info on here. I'd do a search. Also, it is pretty case specific what/when/where to inject - I'd just talk to your vet. What makes you think your horse needs injections? Where? Has he had scans done? What does your vet say?
The reason why I'm asking is that my vet had thought that my horse was a candidate for surgery on her stifle and hock as I think he said she had OCD. He said she had lesions in both hocks and on the right stifle. He had a surgeon review the x-rays and the surgeon said he didn't think her lesions were bad enough to warrant surgery at this time. She is only five years old and I just want her to be comfortable and have the most longevity possible. My vet said he would like to inject her with HA and a steroid to make her more comfortable but he was not specific on what he would be using. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-05 5:39 PM
svincent - 2015-04-05 5:26 PM
There's a TON of info on here. I'd do a search. Also, it is pretty case specific what/when/where to inject - I'd just talk to your vet. What makes you think your horse needs injections? Where? Has he had scans done? What does your vet say?
The reason why I'm asking is that my vet had thought that my horse was a candidate for surgery on her stifle and hock as I think he said she had OCD. He said she had lesions in both hocks and on the right stifle. He had a surgeon review the x-rays and the surgeon said he didn't think her lesions were bad enough to warrant surgery at this time. She is only five years old and I just want her to be comfortable and have the most longevity possible. My vet said he would like to inject her with HA and a steroid to make her more comfortable but he was not specific on what he would be using.
Depo is very cheap and this is why vets like using it as they make more money (IMO)
I don't allow any vet to inject anything into my horse without telling me and myself knowing all the potential side effects/adverse reactions
This goes from sedatives all the way to what they are injecting into joints
I have found the vet drug books do not give sufficient info
The equine pharmacology text books give more detail, I have bought mine off of amazon |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | Ok well I just have general questions I guess. Like on average how often do you have to inject? My mare is not considered lame just stiff and her lesions are very slight. If I didn't go the injection route is there anything I can do to make her more comfortable? Does conditioning do anything? Etc..
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 Saint Stacey
| OCD lesions happen when the soft ends don't change over to bone properly in babies. You basically have pockets of cartilage in what should be bone. They don't fix themselves. Injecting might help the pain, but you won't be fixing the underlaying cause of that pain. Injections typically last 6-12 months. |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | mine was not lame either and his lesion was very small. my surgeon had the opposite advice. He warned me that if I inject I risk a fragment from that weak spot breaking loose and causing damage to the joint;. we did surgery. good thing there was a very tiny fragment and it did cause a very minor amount of damage.my surgeon congratulated me for making that call as he gets disappointed when his clients wait until there is too much damage for him to go in repair and risks having an unsuccessful outcome. |
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 Regular
Posts: 63
| Is she a performing horse now or just a prospect? I would try injection rather than surgery as a start. |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-05 11:49 PM
Ok well I just have general questions I guess. Like on average how often do you have to inject? My mare is not considered lame just stiff and her lesions are very slight. If I didn't go the injection route is there anything I can do to make her more comfortable? Does conditioning do anything? Etc..
Honestly, having dealt with this, you're better off to just go ahead and have the lesions arthroscopically removed. As long as they are there, the horse will have pain. The injections just take away the pain for awhile and they will eventually eat up the cartilage long term, so especially in the stifle, I would do the surgery to remove the lesion if you are going to continue to barrel race on this horse. Depending on where the lesion is in the hock, you might be ok to go ahead and inject if the lesion is in the bottom joint. If it's in the upper joint, I would just recommend you go ahead and have surgery to remove that one, too. Yes, you can keep her serviceably sound for awhile with injections, but she will eventually be a broodmare or pasture pet if you don't remove the lesions. They don't go away or heal. :( |
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Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | kwanatha - 2015-04-06 8:41 AM
mine was not lame either and his lesion was very small. my surgeon had the opposite advice. He warned me that if I inject I risk a fragment from that weak spot breaking loose and causing damage to the joint;. we did surgery. good thing there was a very tiny fragment and it did cause a very minor amount of damage.my surgeon congratulated me for making that call as he gets disappointed when his clients wait until there is too much damage for him to go in repair and risks having an unsuccessful outcome.
I think you and I were posting at the same time. Bad idea to inject and not remove IMO. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | dianeguinn - 2015-04-06 10:21 AM Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-05 11:49 PM Ok well I just have general questions I guess. Like on average how often do you have to inject? My mare is not considered lame just stiff and her lesions are very slight. If I didn't go the injection route is there anything I can do to make her more comfortable? Does conditioning do anything? Etc.. Honestly, having dealt with this, you're better off to just go ahead and have the lesions arthroscopically removed. As long as they are there, the horse will have pain. The injections just take away the pain for awhile and they will eventually eat up the cartilage long term, so especially in the stifle, I would do the surgery to remove the lesion if you are going to continue to barrel race on this horse. Depending on where the lesion is in the hock, you might be ok to go ahead and inject if the lesion is in the bottom joint. If it's in the upper joint, I would just recommend you go ahead and have surgery to remove that one, too. Yes, you can keep her serviceably sound for awhile with injections, but she will eventually be a broodmare or pasture pet if you don't remove the lesions. They don't go away or heal. : (
Agree
I get lower hocks injected, but high motion joints are another story. If they think the surgery would take care of the issue, and has a low risk, I'd get be lesions removed. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | I inject the lower hock where my guy shows signs of arthritis per X-rays (he's 16). If he's that young and shows damage, you're probably better off doing the surgery and eliminating any future damage because he's so young. If it were a horse like mine (older) Id probably inject to keep him comfortable. |
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Saint Stacey
| dianeguinn - 2015-04-06 9:22 AM
kwanatha - 2015-04-06 8:41 AM
mine was not lame either and his lesion was very small. my surgeon had the opposite advice. He warned me that if I inject I risk a fragment from that weak spot breaking loose and causing damage to the joint;. we did surgery. good thing there was a very tiny fragment and it did cause a very minor amount of damage.my surgeon congratulated me for making that call as he gets disappointed when his clients wait until there is too much damage for him to go in repair and risks having an unsuccessful outcome.
I think you and I were posting at the same time. Bad idea to inject and not remove IMO.
I agree too and I'm honestly wondering what sort of surgeon says to just inject and leave an OCD alone. JMHO but that is setting the horse up to fail. |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
I bought a DTF mare several years back... she had an OCD lesion on her right hock... she showed no lameness but I opted to do surgery anyway. I ran her for a few years and then sold her, she did very well on the pro circuit and even won a round in Ft Worth. It was a good decision to do the surgery and she never had a problem after that.
Good luck.
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be.
I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM
I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be.
I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term.
So what do I do when the surgeon says he doesn't think it is necessary? If anything shouldn't he know what should and shouldn't be done?? |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-06 4:11 PM casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be. I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term. So what do I do when the surgeon says he doesn't think it is necessary? If anything shouldn't he know what should and shouldn't be done??
find a new surgeon |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| Get a 2nd opinion if you're not comfortable with th is surgeon |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | Ok so my vet suggested the surgery then had the x-rays reviewed by the hospital's surgeon and he said he didn't feel the lesions warranted surgery at this time. So my vet went on to say he would like to at least inject her to make her more comfortable. I am located in the Pacific northwest and the surgeon that reviewed the x-rays was Dr. Schneider if anyone is familiar with him. He was also a teaching vet at the Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine. I get where you guys are coming from but I also kind of feel like he knows what he is talking about??
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | maybe he does maybe he doesn't. I paid $1500 for a prepurchase from a university vet. what a waste the horse was a cripple. my vet just shook his head. it was out of state and as soon as she stepped off the trailer it was obvious. and no it did not happen in transit. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | kwanatha - 2015-04-06 6:19 PM Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-06 4:11 PM casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be. I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term. So what do I do when the surgeon says he doesn't think it is necessary? If anything shouldn't he know what should and shouldn't be done??
I agree, if you can forward the x-rays to Dr. Jeffrey Watkins or Dr Dabareiner at Texas A&M they may help you with your decision. Dr. Watkins has done this for me several times. You should be able to get his email on the site. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | uno-dos-tres! - 2015-04-06 7:19 PM
kwanatha - 2015-04-06 6:19 PM Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-06 4:11 PM casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be. I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term. So what do I do when the surgeon says he doesn't think it is necessary? If anything shouldn't he know what should and shouldn't be done??
Thank you :) This is an excellent idea! |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be. I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term.
So glad you mentioned the exercise portion in the triad. Have you heard what is the best way to exercise QH yearlings. I've read a little on the TB studies but not seen much for QH. I'm very old school and will soon put my yearlings in the round pen. I have a incline tredmill and my smart Firewater Ta Fame colt has been on it a few times. I'm just not wanting to go over board with this so looking for guidance. OP hope you don't mind me asking but since we have the future Vet online here I had to ask... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 540
Location: My own little world :) | uno-dos-tres! - 2015-04-06 7:28 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be. I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term.
So glad you mentioned the exercise portion in the triad. Have you heard what is the best way to exercise QH yearlings. I've read a little on the TB studies but not seen much for QH. I'm very old school and will soon put my yearlings in the round pen. I have a incline tredmill and my smart Firewater Ta Fame colt has been on it a few times. I'm just not wanting to go over board with this so looking for guidance. OP hope you don't mind me asking but since we have the future Vet online here I had to ask...
Actually this is a really good question! I my horses are pretty much always turned out...I don't have stalls or small pens under the size of an acre or so. Is the average amount of movement throughout a pasture enough exercise or do you need to make sure you take them out and exercise them?? |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-06 7:48 PM uno-dos-tres! - 2015-04-06 7:28 PM casualdust07 - 2015-04-06 6:03 PM I would remove the lesions. what happens is, healthy cartilage gets defects in them when they are foals.. either from genetics, nutrition(over or under), lack of exercise (usually a big combination of all of it).. the bad cartilage forms the cysts and then you can get flaps of good cartilage over that defective cartilage... then, if it ends up vascularizing, you will get mineralization and bony like tissue where cartilage is supposed to be. I had a mare with an OCD lesion that had a big mineralized chip in there. We removed it arthroscopically. There's no way injections would have touched that long term. So glad you mentioned the exercise portion in the triad. Have you heard what is the best way to exercise QH yearlings. I've read a little on the TB studies but not seen much for QH. I'm very old school and will soon put my yearlings in the round pen. I have a incline tredmill and my smart Firewater Ta Fame colt has been on it a few times. I'm just not wanting to go over board with this so looking for guidance. OP hope you don't mind me asking but since we have the future Vet online here I had to ask... Actually this is a really good question! I my horses are pretty much always turned out...I don't have stalls or small pens under the size of an acre or so. Is the average amount of movement throughout a pasture enough exercise or do you need to make sure you take them out and exercise them??
The TB horses are going into a "light" forced exercise program on their first birthdays. They have the $ behind the research and have several papers out on the changes (for the positive) to the colts.
I'm all for a horse being raisded in a big pasture. I sure have noticed a diffrence in the colts I've raised the last few years in the small traps vs several hundred acre pastures. Those outside roaming just know where to put their feet. They also seemed to be sounder. I want what's best for the horse so I'm looking for research on QH's in forced light exercise that are going into performance not halter. |
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Saint Stacey
| Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-06 5:35 PM
Ok so my vet suggested the surgery then had the x-rays reviewed by the hospital's surgeon and he said he didn't feel the lesions warranted surgery at this time. So my vet went on to say he would like to at least inject her to make her more comfortable. I am located in the Pacific northwest and the surgeon that reviewed the x-rays was Dr. Schneider if anyone is familiar with him. He was also a teaching vet at the Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine. I get where you guys are coming from but I also kind of feel like he knows what he is talking about??
Vets make mistakes just like all humans. I saw a vet recommended "chip removal surgery" on an old slab fracture on a 15 year old gelding once. Had a 4th year top of the class vet student not be able to see what, to me, was clearly a lameness in a yearling colt with OCD's in the hocks. Had a long time practicing vet tell me that he didn't see anything wrong with Sidekick when he was becoming neurological. Had one if the best surgical facilities in the nation send a colt home on a gram of bute and 5 isoxiprine tablets when he had a bone infection they had done surgery on. Too bad they didn't take the time to culture Hus open wounds and take xrays prior to sending him home after having him for a month. My point is that second opinions are never a bad thing. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| SKM - 2015-04-07 8:21 AM
Zanadoo88 - 2015-04-06 5:35 PM
Ok so my vet suggested the surgery then had the x-rays reviewed by the hospital's surgeon and he said he didn't feel the lesions warranted surgery at this time. So my vet went on to say he would like to at least inject her to make her more comfortable. I am located in the Pacific northwest and the surgeon that reviewed the x-rays was Dr. Schneider if anyone is familiar with him. He was also a teaching vet at the Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine. I get where you guys are coming from but I also kind of feel like he knows what he is talking about??
Vets make mistakes just like all humans. I saw a vet recommended "chip removal surgery" on an old slab fracture on a 15 year old gelding once. Had a 4th year top of the class vet student not be able to see what, to me, was clearly a lameness in a yearling colt with OCD's in the hocks. Had a long time practicing vet tell me that he didn't see anything wrong with Sidekick when he was becoming neurological. Had one if the best surgical facilities in the nation send a colt home on a gram of bute and 5 isoxiprine tablets when he had a bone infection they had done surgery on. Too bad they didn't take the time to culture Hus open wounds and take xrays prior to sending him home after having him for a month. My point is that second opinions are never a bad thing.
Exactly!
People do not realize vets have off days. Another thing is they don't realize that most vet schools teach them nothing of practice concerning equines so unless they take an externship or get placed with an equine practitioner their 4th year they have very little experience starting out. My best friend is coming straight outta UT with the highest grades in the class and VERY little equine experience. |
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Opinions on Injecting Joints