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 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
   
| Am I the only one seeing these changes in payout after fees? It just seems like the entry fees are staying the same, the payouts are going down, and the processing fees are increasing. I'm talking about the small local jackpots, not the big shows who actually seem to be decreasing their processing fees. I've hosted jackpots before and know that they aren't really a money-maker. But with a decent turnout you can cover the arena rent and any added money. For example, I just saw a flyer for a jackpot paying out 75% of the entry fee. But after processing fees they will actually only be paying out almost 57% of what it costs to enter. The association I've been running at for years pays out 72% after fees.
I appreciate that people are willing to put on jackpots, because I know it can be a pain! But I'm not sure I can justify hauling with a payout like that. Even with fuel prices going down, it still costs a lot to haul somewhere. I know that most of us aren't making a living going to jackpots! But it would be nice get a good check if you happen to win or fall right in the D.
So is this normal and I need to stop questioning it? Or do these payouts seem low? |
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 Midget Lover
 
Location: Kentucky | These processing fees are crazy. The last show I went too, I paid $50 for the class, $60 for the stall, $14 to enter the facility, and $8 to park. I placed 6th in the 2D and I got a $66 check. I'll never run that show again. We are being fee'd to death. |
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| Murphy - 2015-04-07 3:47 PM
These processing fees are crazy. The last show I went too, I paid $50 for the class, $60 for the stall, $14 to enter the facility, and $8 to park. I placed 6th in the 2D and I got a $66 check. I'll never run that show again. We are being fee'd to death.
Maybe I shouldn't be saying anything, because your fees are crazy! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
| Yes I agree! There have been a lot of races that I have chosen not to go to in the last couple of years. They SAY it is a $55 entry fee, but then there is a fee for this and a fee for that plus the pay out is only 75% of the entry fee alone.
I went to a race a few years ago that was advertised as a $50 entry with $1000 added and 80% payout. I drove 4 hours to get there. When we got there it was only then disclosed that there was only $500 added PLUS a $25 office and timing fee! I was so mad but had driven 4 hours so I wasn't going to turn around without running my horse! Needless to say, I haven't been back.
Edited by cyount2009 2015-04-07 3:54 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I can understand the frustration as I have experienced it as well,
I do know that in my area the arena charges have went up the weekday jackpots the arenas in my area don't charge by the hour, they charge by the horse and it is 10/horse, then we have association fees, secretary fees and timer fees, so basically we are running for 50-60 percent of the entry fees |
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| cheryl makofka - 2015-04-07 3:56 PM
I can understand the frustration as I have experienced it as well,
I do know that in my area the arena charges have went up the weekday jackpots the arenas in my area don't charge by the hour, they charge by the horse and it is 10/horse, then we have association fees, secretary fees and timer fees, so basically we are running for 50-60 percent of the entry fees
Wow, $10 per horse is a pretty good money maker for the arena owner! But sure is hard to put on a jackpot with those kinds of arena charges.
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| When it costs the producer between 300-1000 a day to rent a facility you can't expect them not to have fee's. Plus the insurance for these events have also gone up, some producers don't buy it but people are trigger happy with law suites this day and age! Plus, us producers have to hire help now to put on these races, people aren't to willing to lend a hand anymore either! I can agree that some places can get a little greedy with their fee's, but I think it's more because they don't know how to negotiate their fee's in order to keep participant fee's low.
Here's an example of what it costs us for a certain indoor facility(and every facility better be top of the line with the best ground or no one is going to show up anymore)
$700/day for rental
$40 - BBR sanction fee
$100/race hired help
= 840
If we have 50 entries it costs us 16.80/person
If we keep the fee at $5/person and $35 entry(because everyone wants things to be cheap for them)
@80% payback/100 entries - leaves us with $700 after payouts
the $5 fee leaves us with - $500
Giving us 1200 then we can deduct 200 because we needed to have added money and 840/day expense, leaving us with $160 to pay for tractor fuel and our costs for the small miscellaneous things that no one thinks of(software, printer items, etc).
Edited by FlyingJT 2015-04-07 4:30 PM
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| I guess we're lucky here to have access to arenas at a very reasonable fee. We can rent the local arenas for $50-$100 for 4 hours. Our local jackpots are fairly small, probably averaging 30-40 entries with exhibitions comparable to the number of entries.
One of our arenas recently changed ownership and they now require an insurance policy. I found a policy for $105 along with the $75 arena rental fee, so only had to cover $180 worth of expenses. Not sure that I could have made it work if I'd tried to sanction BBR because that would have added around $140 to my expenses with sanctioning fees and added money. Our local association collects $2 per person for arena rent and the 20% they take out of the entry fee is $4. Exhibitions are $4.
Sounds like maybe I've been spoiled by our associations fees and I shouldn't complain because they are higher in other places! |
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| Something that I haven't figured into the payout percentage is the added money. That would increase the payout. I guess I need to sit down and figure some math! I think that some of our local jackpots are using the processing fee and decreased payout percentage to cover the added money and sanctioning fees for the BBRs, rather than finding sponsors for the added money. I wonder if it would be better for the producer and the entrants to not sanction and pay out a higher percentage while charging a lower processing fee. Again, I'm talking about smaller jackpots, not the bigger shows.
Just some thoughts I've been having and wondering other barrel racers opinions. |
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| I know we have busted our tail this year to get sponsors and luckily we got them. We are able to keep our fees low and payout 80% plus have added money regardless of how many entrants we have. If we only have 10 entries we still payout the added money and 80%. If you don't have sponsors, things like that would put you in the red and you won't be putting on races for very long after. It also allows us to have more awards if we choose to do a series and sanction with things like the BBR, Run for the Bonus, etc. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
| FlyingJT - 2015-04-07 5:40 PM
I know we have busted our tail this year to get sponsors and luckily we got them. We are able to keep our fees low and payout 80% plus have added money regardless of how many entrants we have. If we only have 10 entries we still payout the added money and 80%. If you don't have sponsors, things like that would put you in the red and you won't be putting on races for very long after. It also allows us to have more awards if we choose to do a series and sanction with things like the BBR, Run for the Bonus, etc.
What state? |
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Check into what insurance costs to put a jackpot on. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| We don't have timer fees or arena fees around here (Houston area). Big 2 or 3 day shows may have a one time processing fee, Wrapn3 adds $5 on per person, not per entry. Local jackpots rarely have any added on fees. A local jackpot will usually draw anywhere from 150- 200 entries on a weekend with no added money, with added money you may have 300 + entries. A week night jackpot will draw 75 entries. I guess we have the numbers to cover the costs without the extra fees.
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-04-07 7:41 PM
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Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| CYA Ranch - 2015-04-07 7:20 PM
Check into what insurance costs to put a jackpot on.
I understand the expense of insurance. When I was looking for some I got quotes for $500-$2,000. I called around and found a place that does small events and got ours for $105. But I know that very few if any of the small local jackpots actually get insurance, so that's not what the fees are covering. I think that the fees are going to cover the added money and sanctioning. And I understand that, because if they can't cover their fees they won't have the jackpots. I'm fine paying a reasonable fee when the payout is still good. But when they start taking out almost half of the fees I start to wonder where all of that money is going.
I don't mind paying higher fees (entry and processing fees) at the big shows either. They are charging a higher entry fee with good added money. The overhead on those races is high, but there is a good payout too.
I guess why I've really been thinking about this is that I've got a project horse and I'm 4D material right now. I just don't think I can justify the entries and fuel knowing that unless they just get a whole lot of entries the 4D money isn't going to be much of anything. I know I've got to haul to get better, but I can't see spending all the extra fee money. Or maybe I'm just pouty because all I've got to run right now is a 4D project! |
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 Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | We have an entry fee and an arena fee around here (usually they roll it all into one for the first horse, then only the entry fee after that), but the jackpots I run at most often only run 2D, and that puts a lot of us girls out of the money. The one time I was there that was a 4D race, I got second in the 4D (which made me happy) but the payout barely covered my entry fee, and not my arena fee at all. I don't do it for the money, but would really like a better chance to win some once in a while. Sigh. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I don't mind it as long as here's transparency and it's all laid out on the showbill. Then I have all the info and I can decide if it's worth my time and money before I go. |
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 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | cyount2009 - 2015-04-07 3:52 PM Yes I agree! There have been a lot of races that I have chosen not to go to in the last couple of years. They SAY it is a $55 entry fee, but then there is a fee for this and a fee for that plus the pay out is only 75% of the entry fee alone. I went to a race a few years ago that was advertised as a $50 entry with $1000 added and 80% payout. I drove 4 hours to get there. When we got there it was only then disclosed that there was only $500 added PLUS a $25 office and timing fee! I was so mad but had driven 4 hours so I wasn't going to turn around without running my horse! Needless to say, I haven't been back.
And I'm the girl that NEVER carries cash... So before a race I swing by the ATM and get just enough for fees and maybe a coke at the concession stand. Then at the window, I'm like, "Hey Mom, you got an extra $5???"
I don't do a ton of barrel races so I always forget to bring extra for the "junk fees" as a producer around here calls them... She advertises her shows as having no junk fees, what is on the flyer is what you pay!
The rodeo association I'm currently running pays out 79% of the barrel racing fees. Our closest, most comparable association has higher fees and pays much less, but they get more entries bc they add money. We still pay more even with no added money but it's hard to get people to see that. The turn their nose up at a rodeo with zero added money.
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | depending how hot it is I am usually not much help, so I have no complaints. I don't expect anyone to put them on for free. I just pay and play! |
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| I've noticed it too. Office fees for one day jackpots have gone from $5 to $10 up here. Last weekend there was a Friday night race that charged a $15 office fee and $35 entry fee for $500 added open. If I went just for that one class, it would've cost me $50 to run. |
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Veteran
Posts: 276
| It seems like in my area producers are trying to ensure a profit by feeing everyone to death rather than putting in the extra effort that it takes to draw in good numbers. I have put on jackpots in the past, so I know how much work it is, but it is just one of those things, if you are going to do it, you better work hard and do a good job, otherwise don't bother. I always make a point to go out of my way to tell a producer thank you and nice job when I think the jackpot I attended was well run. I don't bother complaining when it's not so great, I just don't go back. |
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas | rodeomom3 - 2015-04-07 7:36 PM
We don't have timer fees or arena fees around here (Houston area). Big 2 or 3 day shows may have a one time processing fee, Wrapn3 adds $5 on per person, not per entry. Local jackpots rarely have any added on fees. A local jackpot will usually draw anywhere from 150- 200 entries on a weekend with no added money, with added money you may have 300 + entries. A week night jackpot will draw 75 entries. I guess we have the numbers to cover the costs without the extra fees.
Nancy is right.. I think we have the numbers to keep it profitable for the producers around here... The arenas typically rent for $400.00 a day and sometimes you can bargain with them for a multiple day event. The WrapN3 barrel races are super well run - It is generally a three day event, 80% payback, $40.00 fees plus a $5.00 office fee per entry. Youth, adult and senior sidepots. It is a sliding scale payout and usually BBR and WPRA approved. Renee and her crew do an awesome job!
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | We have some pretty steep EF's up this way and there are places that still will "fee" you to death. I don't mind an office fee, it costs money to put something on, I get that. When I haul a trailer load to a multi-day race and turn all of my entries in at once for the 3 days, I can get a little miffed at being charged a $10 office fee, per head, per day. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 591
| WrapSnap - 2015-04-08 9:26 PM
We have some pretty steep EF's up this way and there are places that still will "fee" you to death. I don't mind an office fee, it costs money to put something on, I get that. When I haul a trailer load to a multi-day race and turn all of my entries in at once for the 3 days, I can get a little miffed at being charged a $10 office fee, per head, per day.
I don't know about all places, but some facilities will charge per horse/per day. Thus the producer must pass along this cost. A lot of these "stupid" rules we blame on the producers are facility rules. Now I know the next thought is "Why did the producer choose this facility?". Having helped put on many races, both large and small, there are many questions that don't even begin to enter the contestant's mind. For larger races you need space - parking, stalls, warm-up, etc. Are there tractors available and water trucks, if not how far do you have to haul them in and how much does it cost. Are there enough stalls, how much to bring in additional stalls, is there even a place to get more stalls from and space? You need help to run a race. Is your help close and for a multiple day race can they go home or will you have to cover their hotel and travel costs if you choose an arena further away from you where you may not know many people to help you? The list goes on and on. If you ever wonder why a producer (or multiple producers) do something, go put on a race of your own and you will find out why and probably never complain about it again! LOL. |
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Location: Texas | grinandbareit - 2015-04-08 11:12 PM rodeomom3 - 2015-04-07 7:36 PM We don't have timer fees or arena fees around here (Houston area). Big 2 or 3 day shows may have a one time processing fee, Wrapn3 adds $5 on per person, not per entry. Local jackpots rarely have any added on fees. A local jackpot will usually draw anywhere from 150- 200 entries on a weekend with no added money, with added money you may have 300 + entries. A week night jackpot will draw 75 entries. I guess we have the numbers to cover the costs without the extra fees. Nancy is right.. I think we have the numbers to keep it profitable for the producers around here... The arenas typically rent for $400.00 a day and sometimes you can bargain with them for a multiple day event. The WrapN3 barrel races are super well run - It is generally a three day event, 80% payback, $40.00 fees plus a $5.00 office fee per entry. Youth, adult and senior sidepots. It is a sliding scale payout and usually BBR and WPRA approved. Renee and her crew do an awesome job!
I guess we are lucky around here. We don't have "extra" fees for our local jackpots, but they draw a crowd, even on the week nights. The bigger events around here also don't go overboard in my opinion. I don't mind paying for a stall/shavings (that's a convenience to me), paying the secretary and timer, heck those deals draw 400-600 entries, so the payback is still good.
I also agree that WrapN3 does an outstanding job! I always look forward to their barrel races. |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | I'm probably a little off the mark here, BUT,,,,,, don't the exhibitions/time onlys help to offset some of these fees?
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
Location: Nebraska | I've been pretty lucky that most of the local barrel races have been affordable. I don't mind paying a $10 office fee. One of the arenas recently got new management. They're hard to work with from what I've heard and a few barrel races have already been moved. I'm nervous to see what will happen in the next couple years if it continues. It's only 20 min from my house so I want to go to as many barrel races as possible there! |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | 3 To Go - 2015-04-09 1:26 AM
WrapSnap - 2015-04-08 9:26 PM
We have some pretty steep EF's up this way and there are places that still will "fee" you to death. I don't mind an office fee, it costs money to put something on, I get that. When I haul a trailer load to a multi-day race and turn all of my entries in at once for the 3 days, I can get a little miffed at being charged a $10 office fee, per head, per day.
I don't know about all places, but some facilities will charge per horse/per day. Thus the producer must pass along this cost. A lot of these "stupid" rules we blame on the producers are facility rules. Now I know the next thought is "Why did the producer choose this facility?". Having helped put on many races, both large and small, there are many questions that don't even begin to enter the contestant's mind. For larger races you need space - parking, stalls, warm-up, etc. Are there tractors available and water trucks, if not how far do you have to haul them in and how much does it cost. Are there enough stalls, how much to bring in additional stalls, is there even a place to get more stalls from and space? You need help to run a race. Is your help close and for a multiple day race can they go home or will you have to cover their hotel and travel costs if you choose an arena further away from you where you may not know many people to help you? The list goes on and on. If you ever wonder why a producer (or multiple producers ) do something, go put on a race of your own and you will find out why and probably never complain about it again! LOL.
I agree and totally understand the issues that producers face when they are being charged fees by the facility. In the case that I'm speaking of, that is not the case, however. |
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| roxieannie - 2015-04-09 8:01 AM
I'm probably a little off the mark here, BUT,,,,,, don't the exhibitions/time onlys help to offset some of these fees?
yes they do.... that's why some producers will allow exhibitions to go on forever and cause the race to be late. But exhibitions most of the time don't make you a huge profit, they save your butt when you don't have the numbers show up to cover your costs. When you do have a good turn out, exhibitions will give you about $500 in your pocket but it usually gets used somewhere else, especially for series. I will be 100% honest and say that the end of a series(small local) a producer will probably end the series with about $300-500 in the bank. And if they are lucky to have some sponsors it may be more, most small producers put that back into another series or race, they aren't and won't make a lot of money. |
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| WrapSnap - 2015-04-08 11:26 PM
We have some pretty steep EF's up this way and there are places that still will "fee" you to death. I don't mind an office fee, it costs money to put something on, I get that. When I haul a trailer load to a multi-day race and turn all of my entries in at once for the 3 days, I can get a little miffed at being charged a $10 office fee, per head, per day.
That's one thing that really chaps me... /head is a good way to drive people away in my opinion. One arena we get charged /head but we negotiated a cap on it. It may cost us $5/head to use the arena but we agreed that only up to $250, every head after that is free. this allows us to charge /person and it's only $5. |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | I am grateful for those who produce well ran events. I also want them to make a profit for their efforts. I dont work for free and I dont expect them to. But sounds like more upcharges up north?? We are pretty spoiled here in OKLA it seems with reasonable fees and lots of choices. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| The fee I take the biggest issue with is the "jump-out" fee at multi-day races. I get that if you're staying the night there, they want you to buy a stall, and I have no problem with that. I think it's a ripoff to charge someone who is hauling in (possibly just for one day) and leaving that same day after you've already charged them an office fee! |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8555
Location: sunny california | k.maddocks24 - 2015-04-10 9:57 AM The fee I take the biggest issue with is the "jump-out" fee at multi-day races. I get that if you're staying the night there, they want you to buy a stall, and I have no problem with that. I think it's a ripoff to charge someone who is hauling in (possibly just for one day) and leaving that same day after you've already charged them an office fee!
sometimes that fee covers the wear and tear of the ground. Horses dig holes and well they poop everywhere and sometimes people leave trash. Someone has to come in and clean all that up. I have parked out in pastures at some places and they were so tore up after everyone left, not much grazing for the cattle after the racers tear it up. |
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 Having Smokin Bandits
Posts: 4572
Location: Woodstown, NJ | TurnLane - 2015-04-09 10:05 AM I am grateful for those who produce well ran events. I also want them to make a profit for their efforts. I dont work for free and I dont expect them to. But sounds like more upcharges up north?? We are pretty spoiled here in OKLA it seems with reasonable fees and lots of choices.
I used to live in Oklahoma and then Virginia and now I am back in Jersey. I think the fees were the worst in VA. They really nickeled and dimed you to death there. So the producers are saying they have to make money. And they should. We want them to be successful so they keep doing this. So where is all the money going? It is definitely not going in the racers' pockets. You used to be able to go out and buy yourself a new headstall or take everybody out to eat on the way home from a barrel race in the old days if you placed. Nowadays, our winnings don't even cover what it cost to enter. We might as well be doing playdays. I guess it's the arenas who are charging more? Are THEY making money? But then how can little playday clubs afford to rent arenas when they charge riders $8 a class or $25 for the whole day? Someone's got to be making all the money. I know it's not me! |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | SmokinBandits - 2015-04-12 10:29 PM
TurnLane - 2015-04-09 10:05 AM I am grateful for those who produce well ran events. I also want them to make a profit for their efforts. I dont work for free and I dont expect them to. But sounds like more upcharges up north?? We are pretty spoiled here in OKLA it seems with reasonable fees and lots of choices.
I used to live in Oklahoma and then Virginia and now I am back in Jersey. I think the fees were the worst in VA. They really nickeled and dimed you to death there. So the producers are saying they have to make money. And they should. We want them to be successful so they keep doing this. So where is all the money going? It is definitely not going in the racers' pockets. You used to be able to go out and buy yourself a new headstall or take everybody out to eat on the way home from a barrel race in the old days if you placed. Nowadays, our winnings don't even cover what it cost to enter. We might as well be doing playdays. I guess it's the arenas who are charging more? Are THEY making money? But then how can little playday clubs afford to rent arenas when they charge riders $8 a class or $25 for the whole day? Someone's got to be making all the money. I know it's not me!
That's one thing Jersy definitely has going for it and why I continue to drive up there for shows so often. Went to two barrel races this weekend. No pile of extra fees and even with so many conflicting barrel races going on and lower number of entries than normal, the payouts were still very good! |
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Payouts after fees at jackpots