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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
  
Location: Texas | I saw a FB post by someone who has won a few good titles in her career, and to me it came off a little snobby. It was something a long the lines of "No horse of hers will ever have a needle in its joints or shoes on its feet"
Which I think is great if your horse can live happily that way. But what if your horse has navicular or something wrong with its feet? Or arthritis in its hocks or ankles? Something you can't control?
Do you just end its career? Or dope it up on pain killers? The comment made me feel bad for injecting my horses hocks, but you know what, if that's what makes him happy and as long as he loves to run barrels then why wouldn't I?
Idk what my point is with this.. Just a rant I guess |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
  
Location: North Dakota | Don't feel bad! I mean to each their own, but I'll do whatever I can to keep my horse sound to ride and comfortable. If she has some sort of gypsy magic that'll keep horses sound w/ no maintenance she better share!
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-04-21 11:22 PM
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Fire Ant Peddler
Posts: 2881
| Personally I do not know anyone at the professional level that does not inject when needed. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| It is a discussion one needs to have with their vet, diagnosis, the prognosis, treatment options with prognosis, and go from there.
Education is key,
As a horse owner you should know every drug being given to your horse, the potential side effects, adverse reactions, and potential complications of every drug and procedure. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| My preferences take a back seat to what is best for my horse . For instance, I would rather not show, but my horse has thin soles and does much better shod, I.prefer wool felt pads but my horse likes wool fleece. There is one thing I will not do and that is drug my horse so I can get him in the arena to run barrels. If he ever needs a drug for his mind, then we will find something else to do. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2604
Location: Texas | Humans have their joints injected with HA and steroids for pain relief, why not horses?
Humans take Tylenol, Aleve, Advil for their pains, why not horses?
Humans take antacids, ulcer treatments for their tummy aches, why not horses?
Et. al. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I know exactly who you are talking about and thats why her horses are hit or miss. They are visibly sore and the barefoot shoe job may help keep them more sound but IMO injections are still needed. The fact they don't believe in injections is the exact reason they don't consistently win.
Also while I don't agree with her thoughts they are entitled to their opinion and I for one say let them not believe....its more money added to the pot for us to win 
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-22 8:05 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 432
| Each person's personal opinion dictates what treatments their horse recieves as well as what their fed, equipment they use on and on. If this person truly believes injecting her horse will do more harm than good or that there are better options out there of course she's not going to. That is just the same as someone injecting on a schedule every 6 months whether the horse needs it thinking they are preventing the horse from becoming sore. I don't know why she feels like throwing that statement out at FB, but then there is a lot on FB I feel like is just asking for drama.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I really think that personal opinions are that.. we all do what we feel is necessary and I dont think we all agree on some things or ways ..coming from my world to here ,personally I have never seen so many owners injecting other things besides hocks and stifles and frequent.. we dont do that we go another route or take time off to heal or something but thats not my business and I dont say its wrong.. because its how they choose to do things.. to the ones that dont inject well its their business... we all dont have to agree or say its wrong.... its really noone business what I choose or you choose to do with your horses..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-04-22 8:18 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| astreakinchic - 2015-04-22 5:30 AM
I know exactly who you are talking about and thats why her horses are hit or miss. They are visibly sore and the barefoot shoe job may help keep them more sound but IMO injections are still needed. The fact they don't believe in injections is the exact reason they don't consistently win.
Also while I don't agree with her thoughts they are entitled to their opinion and I for one say let them not believe....its more money added to the pot for us to win
COuld not agree more!!! We had a person here that was bumping at making the NFR. Very close but not quite there. SHe would run her good horse at every little 100 added jackpot there was, not to mention do time onlys ( Like the horses needed them ) and also let several other people run her. SHe won everything for a while and now not at all. We all knew it would come to an end. I say let them do it, more money for you! |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | I was that way once, then discovered my horse has swelling in his RF and reoccuring SI issues. now I feel like anything possible to make my boy better, she may have not ran into issues like this yet so may be feeling that way now. Dont feel badly about injecting and making your horse feel good. You are putting your horse comfort on the front burner and that is a great thing.... thats something to be proud of. |
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 Heeler Hoarder
Posts: 2067
| That always amazes me.... Do you think human athletes don't do extra things to feel comfortable and stay competitive ? So why do people think horses that were never intended to run around 3 barrels should do so with no help. I would bet BIG $ her horses are sore ! I go with what my vet recommends and what keeps my horse 100% happy & sound to perform at their best. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Coming from a small town to a very large city it was considered taboo almost to have any work other than a coggins or teeth floating done on your horses. Besides a trim. Even then if you put shoes on your horse, you were considered high class. LOL
So when people from my hometown hear about Chiro appointments or therapy treatments for my gelding they kind of snicker and snarl at me for "buying in to stuff that is all in your head." My own Dad even looked down on me taking my gelding to simple things like chiro appointments, acupuncture appointments, and sheath cleanings at the vet. He finally see's the difference now and supports me.
I would do just about anything for my gelding if my finances allowed me too. But for now, I'm doing what I can to keep him happy. |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 1:56 PM
On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse.
So if you pay 20k for a horse and he needs a once yearly coffin injection you'd rather just start showing him in halter because basically thats the only thing you can show in that will not stress that joint.
There are some ppl, who rather than inject, will just turn them out for 6 months to a year and allow the soreness to dissipate but when they go back into heavy work the soreness is there.
This sport is a business for those that haul. I have ones I love and try to do my best by them but saying injecting is "unkind" to the horse goes against scientific research and reasoning. I know aged horses that have went futurity to open horse and started being injected at the age of 4 for their hocks. They are were retired at 24 and are still going strong teaching kiddos how to ride in the pasture without PAIN because they are still injected.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-22 1:17 PM
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 Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | Fairweather - 2015-04-22 12:56 PM On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse.
I think there is a happy medium between never injecting and injecting way too much. One of my rodeo horses needs his coffin joints injected a couple times a year, and I think the other one is going to need at least one stifle injected periodically. I don't think that constitutes outrageous maintenance because these horses love their job and want to do it even if it hurts a little. It is my job as their owner to figure out when they are hurting and fix it. My old bay horse would not be happy doing another job.....he loves to run barrels.....so I owe it to him to keep him feeling as good as I can as long as I can. I am also crossing my fingers that someday he will decide to slow down and become a pee wee horse. LOL> |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | Not to many years ago i was on the i wont inject my horse band wagon........i jumped off pretty fast when my one mare came up lame......was much nicer to see her moving soundly and not sore.......so now im on inject band wagon....and all my horse get injected when they need it.....m |
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Expert
Posts: 5293
| rodeowithjoker - 2015-04-22 11:18 AM
Fairweather - 2015-04-22 12:56 PM On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse.
I think there is a happy medium between never injecting and injecting way too much. One of my rodeo horses needs his coffin joints injected a couple times a year, and I think the other one is going to need at least one stifle injected periodically. I don't think that constitutes outrageous maintenance because these horses love their job and want to do it even if it hurts a little. It is my job as their owner to figure out when they are hurting and fix it. My old bay horse would not be happy doing another job.....he loves to run barrels.....so I owe it to him to keep him feeling as good as I can as long as I can. I am also crossing my fingers that someday he will decide to slow down and become a pee wee horse. LOL>
There is a difference in the joints you inject to. Hocks can be injected as many times as you want, worst that can happen is the steroid fuses the hock and the horse is pain free anyway. Coffin joints are another issue. Coffins will last less and less the more times you do them. And eventually when the steroid destroys the coffin joint then horse will need to be euthanized. I have ONE horse that needs coffins done but have found for him keeping the hocks done takes the stress off the front end and he stays sound. Also used OSPHOS and pentosan/Polyglycan. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I will say these anti injection people have decent 3D horses that could be decent 1D horses if their slight lameness issues were fixed.
Many times these ppl cannot even tell if their horse is off unless they are head bobbing lame at a walk. They don't understand why their horse does what is does on the pattern or what is actually causing their problems.
Its sad that mostly their horses are forced to work in pain and they never know it...I feel bad for them. They are tough sucked that go in without refusal and work but just don't clock. They coming out walking off and the owner is clueless to their slight lameness.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-22 2:07 PM
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Location: Texas | I am not against injections at all and everyone has their own opinion - which is completely fine.
I will say though, I will try to do other things to fix the problem or ease pain and discomfort before I run straight to the syringes and medicine bottles. I can't explain how much my chiropractor means to me and my horses or how grateful I am to have an equine rehabilitation facility to use any time I want. But if it comes down to my horses needing injections, consider it done. I put entirely too much effort, time, blood, sweat and tears into my horses. They will not be in pain. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | When they're sold / ran as a business, then the answer is yes the personal opinion is more important to them. People do what it takes to keep making money.
On the flip side, there are other disciplines horses could go to and not require continuing injection. Of course that sometimes requires making the decision early enough on, prior to them being so bad that they need injections just to track sound walking. But I tend to think if I found out early on my horse had a degenerative issue that was going to require injections to keep him together, I'd find him something else for him to do that was less stressful on him. But then again, it's not about money for me and it doesn't have to be. |
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Heeler Hoarder
Posts: 2067
| I just attended a clinic a few weekends ago and it AMAZED me the number of people riding around with THREE LEGGED LAME horses ! That is inexcusable ! I am not in it for the money either but if my $25,000 4yo needs injected to give her that next half a second off and she's TELLING me she is sore I'm not going to turn her out for a year and start all over. I have always injected and run them well into their late teen years with no problems. I guess I'm not understanding what people think it hurts? |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Ever had your joint injected personally?
But more importantly, every time you inject into the joint you run the risk of infecting the joint, and joint injections run a very high risk of death. It is very hard to make sure bacteria doesn't get into the joint even with optimum conditions and top not disinfecting. It is not something to be taken lightly, and more risk than I would want to take on a regular basis.
Ask Amy Lamon about her experience with the last joint injection she had done on one she was running.. |
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 Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | To each their own.
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I'm curious what these anti injection ppl do when their horse gets sore? And I do t wanna here your jorse doesn't because they ALL do no matter what. Do you go to the vet? If so do you allow them to block so they can find the source of the pain to distinguish between bone or tissue injuries? If the vet says he needs injections do you refuse them and opt for pain management like ketaphin bute or DMSO jugging? I mean there is no getting around hock injections unless you want to surgically fuse. |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | astreakinchic - 2015-04-22 3:12 PM I'm curious what these anti injection ppl do when their horse gets sore? And I do t wanna here your jorse doesn't because they ALL do no matter what. Do you go to the vet? If so do you allow them to block so they can find the source of the pain to distinguish between bone or tissue injuries? If the vet says he needs injections do you refuse them and opt for pain management like ketaphin bute or DMSO jugging? I mean there is no getting around hock injections unless you want to surgically fuse.
Amy Laymon would be a good one to ask. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 4:13 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-04-22 3:12 PM I'm curious what these anti injection ppl do when their horse gets sore? And I do t wanna here your jorse doesn't because they ALL do no matter what. Do you go to the vet? If so do you allow them to block so they can find the source of the pain to distinguish between bone or tissue injuries? If the vet says he needs injections do you refuse them and opt for pain management like ketaphin bute or DMSO jugging? I mean there is no getting around hock injections unless you want to surgically fuse.
Amy Laymon would be a good one to ask.
I kno amy and the trials she went through with that horse. Freak accidents occur...infections and even an OD on steroids from one owner injecting and not disclosing that to the current owner.
She has some different theories and thoughts about things for sure. I guess it's working for her program. I jus don't see anyone who consistently year after year is in the top large open shows rodeos or futurity that does not work closely with a vet to figure out pain issues. It used to be horses had to be tough to make it before we knew about pain. Get a bigger bit, get meaner, and force them to work and the good ones were the ones that did their job regardless....we know better now.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-22 3:24 PM
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Maybe they have 986557569 back up horses... 
Amy does think differently and has an open mind, and she has done very well and obviously what she does is working. It would be interesting to get her take. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
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I'm just curious what yall would do with a 20k prospect that your getting ready for OKC in December and he comes up hock sore? I guess I care more about my happiness by injecting him so he's out of pain and can work. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 2:44 PM
Ever had your joint injected personally?
But more importantly, every time you inject into the joint you run the risk of infecting the joint, and joint injections run a very high risk of death. It is very hard to make sure bacteria doesn't get into the joint even with optimum conditions and top not disinfecting. It is not something to be taken lightly, and more risk than I would want to take on a regular basis.
Ask Amy Lamon about her experience with the last joint injection she had done on one she was running..
Actually it all depends on how the vet injects, this is where people need to be educated.
Most bacteria is removed by mechanical means (scrubbing). The research shows 7 min minimum is the number to remove all bacteria from an injection site. My vet times me for 7 min on each leg when I am getting injections, the chlorahexadine is anti microbial and it will also kill the bacteria if you use within the intended use, no vets should not be refilling their squirt bottles without sterilizing first as refilling the bottles can cause chemical resistant microbes to be in the solution. After the 7 min scrub alcohol should be applied to rid any other pathogens left on the surface, then the vet needs to use sterile technique to inject.
I remember Amy posting on here about her horse, and different people/different vets the outcome may have been different
I have had a horse with infected joints 2/4 both pasterns, my horse was not injected by my usual vet but a competent vet. I was 16 yrs old and when he broke sterile procedure I knew and I should have stopped him, but I didnt. Next day my horse couldn't move, long story short my horse suffered for 2 weeks till my vet got back because all other vets would not see my horse as they were covering the ass of the vet who screwed up.
My horse received proper care, a joint culture, flushing of over 1 gallon of saline through each joint over 12 hrs, antibiotics left in overnight repeat flush the next day antibiotic over night repeat flush then HA injection.
He came back sound as before and ran competitively for 8 yrs after when he was retired sound (to the naked eye, still running good, no drugs given)
Also most vets give a steroid to alleviate the pain my vet uses trimethisclione (only one proven to promote cartilage regeneration) a bit of antibiotic mine uses gentamicin, and hyluronic acid
Yes there is chance of infection, yes there is chance of joint flare, and yes there is a greater chance of your horse being comfortable after injection
Edited by cheryl makofka 2015-04-22 4:26 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I want to ask the anti injectors do you sedate and float teeth?
If injections are performed properly there is actually less incidence of an adverse reaction happening with injections then with routine sedation
Routine sedation 1:1000 an adverse event occurs, this includes death, injury, cardiac damage, anaphylaxis, etc |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I want to ask the anti injectors do you sedate and float teeth?
If injections are performed properly there is actually less incidence of an adverse reaction happening with injections then with routine sedation
Routine sedation 1:1000 an adverse event occurs, this includes death, injury, cardiac damage, anaphylaxis, etc |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| FLITASTIC - 2015-04-22 1:35 PM
rodeowithjoker - 2015-04-22 11:18 AM
Fairweather - 2015-04-22 12:56 PM On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse.
I think there is a happy medium between never injecting and injecting way too much. One of my rodeo horses needs his coffin joints injected a couple times a year, and I think the other one is going to need at least one stifle injected periodically. I don't think that constitutes outrageous maintenance because these horses love their job and want to do it even if it hurts a little. It is my job as their owner to figure out when they are hurting and fix it. My old bay horse would not be happy doing another job.....he loves to run barrels.....so I owe it to him to keep him feeling as good as I can as long as I can. I am also crossing my fingers that someday he will decide to slow down and become a pee wee horse. LOL>
There is a difference in the joints you inject to. Hocks can be injected as many times as you want, worst that can happen is the steroid fuses the hock and the horse is pain free anyway. Coffin joints are another issue. Coffins will last less and less the more times you do them. And eventually when the steroid destroys the coffin joint then horse will need to be euthanized. I have ONE horse that needs coffins done but have found for him keeping the hocks done takes the stress off the front end and he stays sound. Also used OSPHOS and pentosan/Polyglycan.
I have to disagree with your comment about multiple injections on the coffin joint
There is one certain steroid Trimisclione that actually has shown to regenerate cartilage in the studies.
Methylprednisone it actually says on the container not for use in high motion joints, and has been proven to break down cartilage.
Frequent injections yes there is the chance of scar tissue, but this is where the vet and owner must weigh the pros and cons of the procedure.
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I inject.. I sedate.. Im not anti inject.. I just dont feel that people should judge or be harsh on ones that dont its their horse.. yes many are sore.. but its their horse.. |
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Am I really the Weirdo?
Posts: 11181
Location: Kansas | FLITASTIC - 2015-04-22 1:35 PM rodeowithjoker - 2015-04-22 11:18 AM Fairweather - 2015-04-22 12:56 PM On the flip side........what if she had said I will inject, shoe, etc to make sure they keep running? Isn't that just as bad?
The jury is still out for me, but I have a tendency to think if they require the injections, etc and that much upkeep why make them keep running and tear them down further? Why not release them to do another discipline that doesn't require all that? That really is kinder for the horse. I think there is a happy medium between never injecting and injecting way too much. One of my rodeo horses needs his coffin joints injected a couple times a year, and I think the other one is going to need at least one stifle injected periodically. I don't think that constitutes outrageous maintenance because these horses love their job and want to do it even if it hurts a little. It is my job as their owner to figure out when they are hurting and fix it. My old bay horse would not be happy doing another job.....he loves to run barrels.....so I owe it to him to keep him feeling as good as I can as long as I can. I am also crossing my fingers that someday he will decide to slow down and become a pee wee horse. LOL> There is a difference in the joints you inject to. Hocks can be injected as many times as you want, worst that can happen is the steroid fuses the hock and the horse is pain free anyway. Coffin joints are another issue. Coffins will last less and less the more times you do them. And eventually when the steroid destroys the coffin joint then horse will need to be euthanized. I have ONE horse that needs coffins done but have found for him keeping the hocks done takes the stress off the front end and he stays sound. Also used OSPHOS and pentosan/Polyglycan.
Strange that you say coffin joints will last less the more you do them. I had Chance's done in May 2014, August 2014 (3 1/2 months), then they needed done again April 1st this year (7 1/2 months). His hocks have never shown any signs of problems and numerous vets have looked at him so I don't think his problems are related to anything other than small feet, straight pasterns and being a 1D horse. |
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Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | I love seeing that everyone actually seems to be "discussing" instead of "arguing" it makes it so much more educational, and I love to hear everyones opinions!
I have nothing against this girl or anyone against injecting, I just found it strange to see someone who a lot of people know post something to make her seem better because she doesn't inject, we are barrel racers, I imagine a lot of people read that and shook their head lol
I use to think I would never have anything injected, it scared me so much. But when my vet said it NEEDED to be done I said okay and then stood there with my horse and cried because I thought this was the end of the world and he was gonna be completely messed up. I had no information other than negative stuff on here(granted I never really payed attention either so I just didn't know). Now I've done my research and I know my horse and I know how to handle going about injections and he has all 4 feet shoed and last week my vet said he was the soundest/healthiest he has been in the 4 years i've hd him, and he hasn't had any work done since october. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| outrundaizy - 2015-04-23 1:14 AM I love seeing that everyone actually seems to be "discussing" instead of "arguing" it makes it so much more educational, and I love to hear everyones opinions!
I have nothing against this girl or anyone against injecting, I just found it strange to see someone who a lot of people know post something to make her seem better because she doesn't inject, we are barrel racers, I imagine a lot of people read that and shook their head lol
I use to think I would never have anything injected, it scared me so much. But when my vet said it NEEDED to be done I said okay and then stood there with my horse and cried because I thought this was the end of the world and he was gonna be completely messed up. I had no information other than negative stuff on here(granted I never really payed attention either so I just didn't know). Now I've done my research and I know my horse and I know how to handle going about injections and he has all 4 feet shoed and last week my vet said he was the soundest/healthiest he has been in the 4 years i've hd him, and he hasn't had any work done since october.
See thats the problem joe blow that doesn't know, doesn't go up and down the road, and doesn't have numerous horses in the barn gets on here and talks about how they are against injecting, which is fine they are intitled to their opinion. I don't care if they don't wanna keep their horse happy at his job and like I said if their horse quits clocking its just more money in the purse for us to win with them donating their entry fees. My problem and the reason I'm being a lil harsh is because people come here FOR HELP. New people to the sport that buy a starter horse and someone tells them their horse looks hock sore and needs injecting. So they google and see ppl talking about "you care more about your happness than your horses if you inject", it will only scare them from injecting which is probably something their beginner horse REALLY needs to stay sound and happy with his job. We are past the days of forcing horses to work in pain. Cheryl posted wonderful information that I hope people that are against injecting look at and absorb. I once overheard a vet talking with another client about injections and the vet said, "Will let me tell you this you have more risk of him getting an injection from that IV shot of banamine and dex you need to give him all 3 days of the weekend than you do this injection i'm going to give." Injecting a joint does NOT mean you care about yourself and not your horse. Your doing what is best to keep your horse sound MENTALLY and phsyically so that he can perform at his best. Get away from the sterotypes. Saying all injections are bad is the equivalent to saying all futurity horses get blew up. BTW most futurity horses get the "blew up" title not because you go too fast with them etc but because they are in PAIN and the owner either A.) can't see it or B.) refuses to inject. If your an owner and we tell you your horse is sore and needs vetting but you say well I don't believe in injections, then we will just tell you to come get him. NOT going to tune and get rough on him to make him work when pain is his only problem.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-23 7:37 AM
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 More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | outrundaizy - 2015-04-21 11:10 PM I saw a FB post by someone who has won a few good titles in her career, and to me it came off a little snobby. It was something a long the lines of "No horse of hers will ever have a needle in its joints or shoes on its feet"
Which I think is great if your horse can live happily that way. But what if your horse has navicular or something wrong with its feet? Or arthritis in its hocks or ankles? Something you can't control?
Do you just end its career? Or dope it up on pain killers? The comment made me feel bad for injecting my horses hocks, but you know what, if that's what makes him happy and as long as he loves to run barrels then why wouldn't I?
Idk what my point is with this.. Just a rant I guess
I saw that interview and know who your talking about. I'll keep my horses happy and comfortable and that includes shoeing. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I think it depends entirely on the horse. I am not anti-anything if my vet and I agree it's the right thing for that horse.
I struggle a bit with getting injection crazy on young horses - if you're injecting at 4 or 5 what are you going to be doing by the time the horse is 9 or 10?
I struggle with injecting more than 2x's a year, if the horse is soring up again that quickly, I don't think it is fair to keep them going down the road.
I struggle with injecting multiple joints multiple times a year. Again, if that's needed, is this the right job for the horse?
At the same time, I'd never had a 1D or rodeo competitive horse to keep going down the road who was otherwise happy and healthy - but the welfare of the animal comes first. |
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| Fairweather - 2015-04-22 2:44 PM
Ever had your joint injected personally?
But more importantly, every time you inject into the joint you run the risk of infecting the joint, and joint injections run a very high risk of death. It is very hard to make sure bacteria doesn't get into the joint even with optimum conditions and top not disinfecting. It is not something to be taken lightly, and more risk than I would want to take on a regular basis.
Ask Amy Lamon about her experience with the last joint injection she had done on one she was running..
I have had my knee injected. It hurt like h3ll. I could not believe the improvement in my knee after that though. The only problem was that I had a torn meniscus and injecting it was not really the answer. The surgeon was trying to what he could to avoid surgery. |
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| OhMax - 2015-04-23 8:47 AM I think it depends entirely on the horse. I am not anti-anything if my vet and I agree it's the right thing for that horse. I struggle a bit with getting injection crazy on young horses - if you're injecting at 4 or 5 what are you going to be doing by the time the horse is 9 or 10? I struggle with injecting more than 2x's a year, if the horse is soring up again that quickly, I don't think it is fair to keep them going down the road. I struggle with injecting multiple joints multiple times a year. Again, if that's needed, is this the right job for the horse? At the same time, I'd never had a 1D or rodeo competitive horse to keep going down the road who was otherwise happy and healthy - but the welfare of the animal comes first.
You will have a mentally and physically happy horse that does his job and will last into his late twenties running because you took care of him. I personally have 2 in the field retired sound that were injected as 3 yr olds that will still flex sound, have decently clean xrays, and are fat n sassy....they are 25 and 27. |
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| Tn_Barrelracer - 2015-04-22 2:35 PM
I just attended a clinic a few weekends ago and it AMAZED me the number of people riding around with THREE LEGGED LAME horses ! That is inexcusable ! I am not in it for the money either but if my $25,000 4yo needs injected to give her that next half a second off and she's TELLING me she is sore I'm not going to turn her out for a year and start all over. I have always injected and run them well into their late teen years with no problems. I guess I'm not understanding what people think it hurts?
I attended a clinic in November. Before I went I had my horse injected so that we could work on my problems not hers. The Lifewave patch guy was there evaluating horses for soreness. I think he was amazed that my horse was not sore at all.
Yes, I was amazed at the number of horses that were sore and really could not work because of it. |
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 Queen Boobie 2
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| Bibliafarm - 2015-04-22 6:42 PM
I inject.. I sedate.. Im not anti inject.. I just dont feel that people should judge or be harsh on ones that dont its their horse.. yes many are sore.. but its their horse..
"It's their horse."
Very good point. Here on the interwebs we feel comfortable passing judgement on if people inject, run barefoot, feed the "right" feed, house their horses in conditions we deem appropriate, haul their horses in conveyances we think are safe enough, fancy enough, etc. etc.
There are lots of levels to horse ownership and horse enjoyment. The owners have the right to decide the care they give.
Disclaimer: starvation or outright neglect that puts their life in danger excluded. |
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Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it.
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2015-04-23 9:00 AM
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| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-04-23 9:58 AM
Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it.
Your right time off is the best option but putting hocks that need it back into hard work and you will still result in needing to inject just as you explained ;-) Some things yes you can avoid injection by turning out but once they are put into hard work usually bone issues return. Tendon or ligament issues yes you can heal per Dr. Hopper Rood and Riddle equine hospital.
Don't get your panties in a twist. This site is about education and research.
Horses still run in their late 20s even injected as 2 yr olds...
Also, these anti injection ppl should talk to Debbie Steinhoff about keeping an older horse healthy happy and going. Hotshot went to the vet for stumping a toe and not clocking.
I don't care what ppl do with their horses as I said more money in the purse. But don't say I care more about my happiness or having money in my pocket. I care about the mental and physical health of the horse. As trainers owners want results and get upset when they don't see them. Some refuse to inject just ask you to be harder on their horse....won't do it I'll send them home.
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| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-04-23 8:58 AM
Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it.
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| I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance.
However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection.
What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections.
And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? |
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Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
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Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | OhMax - 2015-04-23 7:47 AM I think it depends entirely on the horse. I am not anti-anything if my vet and I agree it's the right thing for that horse. I struggle a bit with getting injection crazy on young horses - if you're injecting at 4 or 5 what are you going to be doing by the time the horse is 9 or 10? I struggle with injecting more than 2x's a year, if the horse is soring up again that quickly, I don't think it is fair to keep them going down the road. I struggle with injecting multiple joints multiple times a year. Again, if that's needed, is this the right job for the horse? At the same time, I'd never had a 1D or rodeo competitive horse to keep going down the road who was otherwise happy and healthy - but the welfare of the animal comes first.
You have echoed my thoughts/questions/points on this,.especially in regards to if you're injecting on a more frequent basis what is going to happen long term, is it in the best interest of the horse, and if you can head it off and find another discipline before they get worse.
As I said earlier, the jury is still out for me which is why I think it would be interesting to hear from those that go a more holistic type route. |
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| CYA Ranch - 2015-04-23 7:35 AM outrundaizy - 2015-04-21 11:10 PM I saw a FB post by someone who has won a few good titles in her career, and to me it came off a little snobby. It was something a long the lines of "No horse of hers will ever have a needle in its joints or shoes on its feet"
Which I think is great if your horse can live happily that way. But what if your horse has navicular or something wrong with its feet? Or arthritis in its hocks or ankles? Something you can't control?
Do you just end its career? Or dope it up on pain killers? The comment made me feel bad for injecting my horses hocks, but you know what, if that's what makes him happy and as long as he loves to run barrels then why wouldn't I?
Idk what my point is with this.. Just a rant I guess
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Location: Gainesville, TX | This is an interesting thread and debate to me. Aside from my twelve year old gelding and a teenage calf horse, my husband and I had never had anything injected. And both of them had only had it done once. We're pretty conservative on that kind of stuff.
But now I have a futurity prospect. And I would like her to make it. She was started as a two year old and predictably (based on her just growing) was a bit sore when she got home. We had her xrayed and her growth plates were really open. So based on vet recommendation we slowed down her exercise this winter riding for about 20 minutes around 3 times a week as weather allowed. We also started her on adequan. We also put her on rejuvinaide to help with the slight epiphysitis they found. She's going back to the trainer this weekend.
I didn't want her to go back and be sore so I scheduled another vet appointment and we did a full set of xrays (just xrayed hocks and stifles back in October when she got home). She's much cleaner, no more epiphysitis. But she had developed a bone spur in her left stifle and flexed just a touch off on that side. I know this could get worse through training. I listened to both my trainer's and the vet's advice and chose to inject with HA and cortisol in the stifles and then go to IRAP for maintenance. This was not an easy experience or decision for me. I had hoped to avoid it with Adequan and more rest.
Not everyone has agreed with my decision in my family but I truly did make what I thought was the best decision for the long term maintenance of my filly. I don't want her to hate her job because she's sore. And this wasn't soft tissue where rest alone would help but bone. And if the pattern is not for her then I have already thought about giving her a couple other jobs that will not be too hard on her. But if she can run I'd like to give her a chance. She is bred to do this (and genuinely loves to run). ANY job we give a horse isn't really their decision but usually giving them a job they are bred for is more likely to keep them content. I'd like for her to be content and me to be happy.
I did have my hubby video the entire procedure and played 20 questions with the vet about every drug used and the entire process. It was very education to me. I did some research too before she ever went in. I'm very excited about her future and really think this will be the best for her. I know not everyone would make the same decision and that is their prerogative. But I think it is important to consider all options, be as conservative as possible, but if they need it to continue and be comfortable, then do what needs to be done.
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| stayceem - 2015-04-23 1:31 PM
I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance.
However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection.
What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections.
And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses?
Whats causing the horse to need injections in the knee? Conformation, shoeing, an injury?
Most knees need to be injected from injury or conformation. Never had to have a knee done because of just hard use and I've never continually had it injected. I've had chips removed and diagnosis was great after surgery.
I am against blind injecting as well, never have blindly injected. I want a picture and an accurate diagnosis. A vet with "an eye" that won't stop until we know we have fixed the problem. Is it a tendon or ligament problem? Does it originate from the point of insertion to the bone? Is it a bone issue and what is the current damage?
Osphos is really going to help people when it comes to avoiding multiple injections a year. If you have a horse that is requiring multiple injections more than twice usually your vet will start asking you ethical questions about use. I've never had a horse that needed more than twice yearly for anything and usually those were injury related or came from someone else's program and we were getting them over soreness issues from over compensation where they were hurt and the owner either didn't know it or couldn't find the source. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
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| stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance. However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection. What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections. And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? We vet checked a gelding that consistently won the 1D. At the vet he could barely lope a circle he was so cripple in his hind end. My vet pulled me aside and said I am not going to charge you but I am going to xray him so I can show the owner what is going on. He had been injected so much it was not longer getting in his joint and had calcified his soft tissues around the hock. I don't know what she gave him or how he ran like he did but I felt so sorry for him.
I have a great vet, he will use acupuncture and chiro first but if he saids we need to inject, which is not often, I inject. I will not run a sore horse and take mine in to be checked if they are showing signs of being sore, between that and a throat condition they have ( which is mainly why I go to get them scoped) I am there so much my husband refers to my vet as "the boyfriend".
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-04-23 1:24 PM
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| rodeomom3 - 2015-04-23 2:22 PM
stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance. However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection. What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections. And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? We vet checked a gelding that consistently won the 1D. At the vet he could barely lope a circle he was so cripple in his hind end. My vet pulled me aside and said I am not going to charge you but I am going to xray him so I can show the owner what is going on. He had been injected so much it was not longer getting in his joint and had calcified his soft tissues around the hock. I don't know what she gave him or how he ran like he did but I felt so sorry for him.
I have a great vet, he will use acupuncture and chiro first but if he saids we need to inject, which is not often, I inject. I will not run a sore horse and take mine in to be checked if they are showing signs of being sore, between that and this throat condition they have I am there so much my husband refers to my vet as "the boyfriend".
You have an excellent "boyfriend"  |
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Neat Freak
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Location: Wonderful Wyoming | astreakinchic - 2015-04-23 8:18 AM wyoming barrel racer - 2015-04-23 9:58 AM Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it. Your right time off is the best option but putting hocks that need it back into hard work and you will still result in needing to inject just as you explained ;- ) Some things yes you can avoid injection by turning out but once they are put into hard work usually bone issues return. Tendon or ligament issues yes you can heal per Dr. Hopper Rood and Riddle equine hospital. Don't get your panties in a twist. This site is about education and research. Horses still run in their late 20s even injected as 2 yr olds... Also, these anti injection ppl should talk to Debbie Steinhoff about keeping an older horse healthy happy and going. Hotshot went to the vet for stumping a toe and not clocking. I don't care what ppl do with their horses as I said more money in the purse. But don't say I care more about my happiness or having money in my pocket. I care about the mental and physical health of the horse. As trainers owners want results and get upset when they don't see them. Some refuse to inject just ask you to be harder on their horse....won't do it I'll send them home.
I rarely get my panties in a twist, I'm about as easy to get along with as anyone. But I very much think people over inject. I am part of the barrel world and show world and they are no better. So many people I personally know inject hocks without x rays. My horse's issues returned with time off because it never was his hocks. He is now 8 and has been ranched on from 3 to 5 and ran barrels at 5. The last vet that diagnosed his pelvis also x rayed hocks and stifles and said neither were a candidate for injections like the other vet thought. He had something in his 1st set of x rays that made him think we might as well try it and see. Both are very well respected vets and the 2nd guy is one of the best vets for injections in the tri state region. I am just saying that injectiong hocks/stifles is not a cure all. So if a person can get to the top level and win without doing so, and her horses continue to perform at that level for her, we shouldn't be bashing her for not injecting or putting shoes on. We should be asking her what her warm up, exercise and other programs are that allow her to keep her horses this healthy. It can be done, but not with all horses. That much I will acknowledge. |
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I just read the headlines
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| stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM
I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance.
However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection.
What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections.
And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses?
What scares me are the VETS that are so ready to inject without X-rays. |
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Neat Freak
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Location: Wonderful Wyoming | GLP - 2015-04-23 2:06 PM stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance. However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection. What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections. And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? What scares me are the VETS that are so ready to inject without X-rays.
and the sheeples/owners that go along with it. I know we pay these people because they are expected to know more than us, but it is similar to what I see at the Dr office. They know people want answers and results now so they just hand over a prescription or vets inject etc and we go on our way. Me, not so much. I ride a lot when I am hauling and competing and I was able to tell by how my horse acted when I brushed his back, or how he started to stand a little different than normal. All this was long before he started to have issues on the pattern or when riding out in pasture. When I mentioned it on here 99% of the crowd said he probably needed injections.
So now when I see someone else asking similar questions, already tried the injection route because that seems to be the "go to", I offer my personal experience with pelvis issues. These can make a horse sore in the shoulders, back is most obvious and it trickles down to hips and hind legs. I just think we should all be more open minded and 2nd opinions are great unless the x rays just scream "inject me". |
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Is your personal opinion more important than your horses happiness?