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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
 
| I wanted to get opinions on this . I'm always looking to improve my two horses foundation . I ride about 3/4 days a week . When I ride I work on moving body parts , collection , bending etc. I make them stay soft in the face a lot .. Kind of like dressage horses .. I like them to ride like that. Don't get me wrong , I'll let them walk on a loose rein here & there . One mare I have one mare, 5 yrs old . I bought her almost a year ago with no foundation at all . When I lope circles she naturally wants to be extremely high headed .. I hate it , it's just overly high .. So I always make her bring it down & break at the poll. So basically I'm asking everyone's opinions on this subject . Sometimes I feel bad making them ride around broke all the time lol but if I let them slip out of it much at all , things seem to fall apart pretty quickly . | |
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Doggy Diaper Designer
Posts: 2322
 
Location: WI | I think you need to mix it up and vary your routine. I think that constantly making her travel collected when she doesn't naturally, may frustrate or damage her drive to work. I think about this often as I have a friend who rides very collected like you and then there's people who don't.
I mix it up, but most of my riding is loose rein conditioning. But my performance has slipped too. So I you should do it enough to keep them sharp and keep your timing sharp but don't overdo it to the point where you nag | |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Everyone's program is different but in mine I teach my horses to collect, I know they can, when I ask them they give, but I RARELY ride them around collected. I feel like that is picking on them. When they give to pressure I release the pressure. Yes I will make them hold collection on occasion, a few strides, but then I give it back and do this until I teach them to hold a good frame of their own (the level of being well framed up is different for every horse, their build and way of moving are all different so I don't expect them all to frame up the same way). I like to move a horse out and teach them to really stride out and reach, and on occasion collect them for a turn and then send them straight out again on a loose rein and free from any real rein contact. Just my way of doing things. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| I get what you guys are saying . I do feel like I nag them too much . So I try to keep or easy a day or two also. I hate how high headed the 5 yr old is loping circles . She'll tip her nose to the inside , but her head is high . Should I leave her be ? As long as she's loping the speed I want & nose in ? The other mare I have , I have a HARD time keeping her hind end engaged .. She's terrible about wanting to swing her butt . She wont really even turn on her haunches without dumping on her front end .. But we are working on it . She breaks at the poll loping but to really ask her to collect & drive from behind she freaks out & just won't push from behind , she'll swap leads & get resistant . So I've just been getting her stay soft , she'll collect when she's ready I suppose . She's just very resistant & doesn't like to use her body properly .. She's gotten kinda set in her ways for 4 yrs before I got her , so it's so hard . Nice 1 d mare , but I can't get her to quit swinging the hip in her turns & just engage her hind end ! | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| Fancy Lass - 2015-04-29 6:40 PM
I get what you guys are saying . I do feel like I nag them too much . So I try to keep or easy a day or two also. I hate how high headed the 5 yr old is loping circles . She'll tip her nose to the inside , but her head is high . Should I leave her be ? As long as she's loping the speed I want & nose in ? The other mare I have , I have a HARD time keeping her hind end engaged .. She's terrible about wanting to swing her butt . She wont really even turn on her haunches without dumping on her front end .. But we are working on it . She breaks at the poll loping but to really ask her to collect & drive from behind she freaks out & just won't push from behind , she'll swap leads & get resistant . So I've just been getting her stay soft , she'll collect when she's ready I suppose . She's just very resistant & doesn't like to use her body properly .. She's gotten kinda set in her ways for 4 yrs before I got her , so it's so hard . Nice 1 d mare , but I can't get her to quit swinging the hip in her turns & just engage her hind end !
It all depends on conformation
If the horse is naturally high headed, I won't pick on them.
I did have one who always was high headed and had a massage therapist work on her now she could win a pleasure class with her head set. Her it was the tendon or ligament from the poll to the tail that was tight.
Horses dumping on the front end, I look at soundness issues causing this or conformation.
Sometimes horses will also start bracing on the bit which can make then front end heavy.
When I ride mine, I may focus on the fundamentals once a week, unless I am having issues, other then that occasionally during a ride I will collect up reverse arc move their body just to make sure they are listening but not constantly | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| MeepMeep - 2015-04-29 6:08 PM Everyone's program is different but in mine I teach my horses to collect, I know they can, when I ask them they give, but I RARELY ride them around collected. I feel like that is picking on them. When they give to pressure I release the pressure. Yes I will make them hold collection on occasion, a few strides, but then I give it back and do this until I teach them to hold a good frame of their own (the level of being well framed up is different for every horse, their build and way of moving are all different so I don't expect them all to frame up the same way). I like to move a horse out and teach them to really stride out and reach, and on occasion collect them for a turn and then send them straight out again on a loose rein and free from any real rein contact. Just my way of doing things. This is what my trainer teaches also. We practice doing circles "keep the circle the same", collected, broke at the poll, reward with the release, extend them out for a cricle, collect or bring them back to you for a slow trot or lope. She wants them responding to your body movements, mickming what happens in a barrel turn. She likes to reward by releasing the pressure. I do this a couple of times a week. Jan is one of the best hands in Texas and she does not think you can do too much flexing etc as long as you are rewarding the horse by releasing the pressure when they are doing what you are asking. She starts every lesson with "circle" work.
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-04-29 7:22 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel. | |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | epoh - 2015-04-29 8:46 PM As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel.
I disagree. Collection should be a part of your slow work program every single day you get on that horse. The entire ride doesn't need to be about constantly being "in frame", but they should be worked on it daily or they will never gain the strength to hold their bodies correctly on their own. And it does not make a horse sore it actually does the opposite. They elongate their strides, stretch their backs, relax their jaw, neck, poll.... None of that makes a horse sore. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| When I am riding 5/6 days a week, they get 2 days of trail riding. I don't ask much of them at all on these days, we are just going down the road relaxing. When I do this, I want a long strided, back swinging walk and an easy, relaxed trot. The other 3 days are training/tuneup days.
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-04-30 10:23 AM
epoh - 2015-04-29 8:46 PM As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel.
I disagree. Collection should be a part of your slow work program every single day you get on that horse. The entire ride doesn't need to be about constantly being "in frame", but they should be worked on it daily or they will never gain the strength to hold their bodies correctly on their own. And it does not make a horse sore it actually does the opposite. They elongate their strides, stretch their backs, relax their jaw, neck, poll.... None of that makes a horse sore.
Okay here is the thing if you ride a horse differently on certain days the horse is not going to know what to expect. You need to ride a horse especially a colt/unfinished on the pattern horse the same way every single time. I'm not saying do the exact same thing but you need to ride the same so the horse knows what your asking for. If you let it slump along or have giraffe head on tuesday and thursday but require it to be "on the bit" and supple M,W,and Fri well your gonna have a confused horse and a hell of a time getting what your asking for on those days as well.
If your standing around throw the reins away as loose as possible, they step off or away....you correct. When your walking throw them away and give them their head...they wanna speed up correct or be a giraffe...correct. When you get what your asking for let them stand and throw the reins away. You should be asking for specific movements in your dry work and when you get these let the horse rest with no pressure anywhere let him stand with the reins thrown away.
If your constantly asking him to work and stay in frame the whole time your riding then he's probably going to start not liking his job, getting sore from over working, and he well get hot because theres no release and he's confused as to if he was doing what you were asking. Release teaches them they are doing the right thing and the way you asked them. If your constantly nagging they are confused.
Ride the same every time you get on and be consistent but don't work them into a lather every day. Get what you need to get a accomplished and keep asking lighter and lighter every time. Your dry/slow work will get easier and effortless and your horse will quit being a giraffe and start listening to you.
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | astreakinchic - 2015-04-30 9:55 AM WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-04-30 10:23 AM epoh - 2015-04-29 8:46 PM As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel. I disagree. Collection should be a part of your slow work program every single day you get on that horse. The entire ride doesn't need to be about constantly being "in frame", but they should be worked on it daily or they will never gain the strength to hold their bodies correctly on their own. And it does not make a horse sore it actually does the opposite. They elongate their strides, stretch their backs, relax their jaw, neck, poll.... None of that makes a horse sore. Okay here is the thing if you ride a horse differently on certain days the horse is not going to know what to expect. You need to ride a horse especially a colt/unfinished on the pattern horse the same way every single time. I'm not saying do the exact same thing but you need to ride the same so the horse knows what your asking for. If you let it slump along or have giraffe head on tuesday and thursday but require it to be "on the bit" and supple M,W,and Fri well your gonna have a confused horse and a hell of a time getting what your asking for on those days as well. If your standing around throw the reins away as loose as possible, they step off or away....you correct. When your walking throw them away and give them their head...they wanna speed up correct or be a giraffe...correct. When you get what your asking for let them stand and throw the reins away. You should be asking for specific movements in your dry work and when you get these let the horse rest with no pressure anywhere let him stand with the reins thrown away. If your constantly asking him to work and stay in frame the whole time your riding then he's probably going to start not liking his job, getting sore from over working, and he well get hot because theres no release and he's confused as to if he was doing what you were asking. Release teaches them they are doing the right thing and the way you asked them. If your constantly nagging they are confused. Ride the same every time you get on and be consistent but don't work them into a lather every day. Get what you need to get a accomplished and keep asking lighter and lighter every time. Your dry/slow work will get easier and effortless and your horse will quit being a giraffe and start listening to you.
^^^^^^ Great advice!!!!!!! Very well said and explained, astreakinchic!!!  | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 239
| astreakinchic - 2015-04-30 8:55 AM WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-04-30 10:23 AM epoh - 2015-04-29 8:46 PM As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel. I disagree. Collection should be a part of your slow work program every single day you get on that horse. The entire ride doesn't need to be about constantly being "in frame", but they should be worked on it daily or they will never gain the strength to hold their bodies correctly on their own. And it does not make a horse sore it actually does the opposite. They elongate their strides, stretch their backs, relax their jaw, neck, poll.... None of that makes a horse sore. Okay here is the thing if you ride a horse differently on certain days the horse is not going to know what to expect. You need to ride a horse especially a colt/unfinished on the pattern horse the same way every single time. I'm not saying do the exact same thing but you need to ride the same so the horse knows what your asking for. If you let it slump along or have giraffe head on tuesday and thursday but require it to be "on the bit" and supple M,W,and Fri well your gonna have a confused horse and a hell of a time getting what your asking for on those days as well. If your standing around throw the reins away as loose as possible, they step off or away....you correct. When your walking throw them away and give them their head...they wanna speed up correct or be a giraffe...correct. When you get what your asking for let them stand and throw the reins away. You should be asking for specific movements in your dry work and when you get these let the horse rest with no pressure anywhere let him stand with the reins thrown away. If your constantly asking him to work and stay in frame the whole time your riding then he's probably going to start not liking his job, getting sore from over working, and he well get hot because theres no release and he's confused as to if he was doing what you were asking. Release teaches them they are doing the right thing and the way you asked them. If your constantly nagging they are confused. Ride the same every time you get on and be consistent but don't work them into a lather every day. Get what you need to get a accomplished and keep asking lighter and lighter every time. Your dry/slow work will get easier and effortless and your horse will quit being a giraffe and start listening to you.
I agree to a point - and that depends on your definition of "collection". If you are constantly on their mouth and driving them forward the entire time then yes, they will start to get sore and sour...not to mention will not have any clue where they get their release from, so will be less willing next time. Any time mine is in the arena I will lope collected the WHOLE time however I am constantly giving release - so drive forward into the bridle, once they give, I give, they get a release for a stride then pick up again. This way they don't become dull and sore. I truly believe if a horse is travelling CORRECTLY COLLECTED you should NOT make them sore, it should make them STRONGER as it conditions them to pick up their withers, round their back. They will only get sore if they are travelling incorrectly i.e. strung out with a hollow back.
Just my two cents.....some great advice above.
(That said, I do ride one day a week outside of the arena where we will just lollygag down the road and breeze. Horse I'm riding currently is older, not really broke, but cannot be arena rode 7 days a week. I do feel the one day a week run down the road gives her a mental break.) | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| 2H~QH - 2015-04-30 1:56 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-04-30 8:55 AM WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-04-30 10:23 AM epoh - 2015-04-29 8:46 PM As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel. I disagree. Collection should be a part of your slow work program every single day you get on that horse. The entire ride doesn't need to be about constantly being "in frame", but they should be worked on it daily or they will never gain the strength to hold their bodies correctly on their own. And it does not make a horse sore it actually does the opposite. They elongate their strides, stretch their backs, relax their jaw, neck, poll.... None of that makes a horse sore. Okay here is the thing if you ride a horse differently on certain days the horse is not going to know what to expect. You need to ride a horse especially a colt/unfinished on the pattern horse the same way every single time. I'm not saying do the exact same thing but you need to ride the same so the horse knows what your asking for. If you let it slump along or have giraffe head on tuesday and thursday but require it to be "on the bit" and supple M,W,and Fri well your gonna have a confused horse and a hell of a time getting what your asking for on those days as well. If your standing around throw the reins away as loose as possible, they step off or away....you correct. When your walking throw them away and give them their head...they wanna speed up correct or be a giraffe...correct. When you get what your asking for let them stand and throw the reins away. You should be asking for specific movements in your dry work and when you get these let the horse rest with no pressure anywhere let him stand with the reins thrown away. If your constantly asking him to work and stay in frame the whole time your riding then he's probably going to start not liking his job, getting sore from over working, and he well get hot because theres no release and he's confused as to if he was doing what you were asking. Release teaches them they are doing the right thing and the way you asked them. If your constantly nagging they are confused. Ride the same every time you get on and be consistent but don't work them into a lather every day. Get what you need to get a accomplished and keep asking lighter and lighter every time. Your dry/slow work will get easier and effortless and your horse will quit being a giraffe and start listening to you.
Just my two cents.....some great advice above.
(That said, I do ride one day a week outside of the arena where we will just lollygag down the road and breeze. Horse I'm riding currently is older, not really broke, but cannot be arena rode 7 days a week. I do feel the one day a week run down the road gives her a mental break.)
I agree with you but I was trying to emphasize to the OP that if you go out and constantly lope and trot collected circles with no brakes to show release your not going to have a mentally happy horse. I type quick tho, with bad grammar, and most of my responses out completely thought out because i'm usually in a hurry.
If they make two or three correct circles, let them stand and rest with the reins thrown away. In theory yes your going to build up stamina and muscles and condition them, but always asking for collection can blow ones cookies. You must give them rest and recovery, use it to reward. If you just got out and ask for a collected work and thats all you do with them....no down time, then your going to have a "mind sore" horse IMO. I hate using the term "sour" because it equates to "ring sour" and I don't believe there is such a thing.
I believe that "ring sour" or "gate sour" does not exist. You have sore/in pain horses and you have horses who are mentally blown from too much pressure, constantly asking for perfection, and inconsistency in riding. All these horses can be fixed but it takes time, knowledge, and vet work.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-04-30 1:23 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 239
| astreakinchic - 2015-04-30 12:21 PM 2H~QH - 2015-04-30 1:56 PM astreakinchic - 2015-04-30 8:55 AM WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2015-04-30 10:23 AM epoh - 2015-04-29 8:46 PM As long as your horse responds well when you do ask for collection then there is not need for it daily. I feel that is it being too nit picky and it makes horses more susceptible to being body sore as it is not the natural way they were made to travel. I disagree. Collection should be a part of your slow work program every single day you get on that horse. The entire ride doesn't need to be about constantly being "in frame", but they should be worked on it daily or they will never gain the strength to hold their bodies correctly on their own. And it does not make a horse sore it actually does the opposite. They elongate their strides, stretch their backs, relax their jaw, neck, poll.... None of that makes a horse sore. Okay here is the thing if you ride a horse differently on certain days the horse is not going to know what to expect. You need to ride a horse especially a colt/unfinished on the pattern horse the same way every single time. I'm not saying do the exact same thing but you need to ride the same so the horse knows what your asking for. If you let it slump along or have giraffe head on tuesday and thursday but require it to be "on the bit" and supple M,W,and Fri well your gonna have a confused horse and a hell of a time getting what your asking for on those days as well. If your standing around throw the reins away as loose as possible, they step off or away....you correct. When your walking throw them away and give them their head...they wanna speed up correct or be a giraffe...correct. When you get what your asking for let them stand and throw the reins away. You should be asking for specific movements in your dry work and when you get these let the horse rest with no pressure anywhere let him stand with the reins thrown away. If your constantly asking him to work and stay in frame the whole time your riding then he's probably going to start not liking his job, getting sore from over working, and he well get hot because theres no release and he's confused as to if he was doing what you were asking. Release teaches them they are doing the right thing and the way you asked them. If your constantly nagging they are confused. Ride the same every time you get on and be consistent but don't work them into a lather every day. Get what you need to get a accomplished and keep asking lighter and lighter every time. Your dry/slow work will get easier and effortless and your horse will quit being a giraffe and start listening to you.
Just my two cents.....some great advice above.
(That said, I do ride one day a week outside of the arena where we will just lollygag down the road and breeze. Horse I'm riding currently is older, not really broke, but cannot be arena rode 7 days a week. I do feel the one day a week run down the road gives her a mental break.) I agree with you but I was trying to emphasize to the OP that if you go out and constantly lope and trot collected circles with no brakes to show release your not going to have a mentally happy horse. I type quick tho, with bad grammar, and most of my responses out completely thought out because i'm usually in a hurry. If they make two or three correct circles, let them stand and rest with the reins thrown away. In theory yes your going to build up stamina and muscles and condition them, but always asking for collection can blow ones cookies. You must give them rest and recovery, use it to reward. If you just got out and ask for a collected work and thats all you do with them....no down time, then your going to have a "mind sore" horse IMO. I hate using the term "sour" because it equates to "ring sour" and I don't believe there is such a thing. I believe that "ring sour" or "gate sour" does not exist. You have sore/in pain horses and you have horses who are mentally blown from too much pressure, constantly asking for perfection, and inconsistency in riding. All these horses can be fixed but it takes time, knowledge, and vet work.
We are basically on the same page :) on the release/reward. I tend to release quicker (like I said above for every few correct strides release for a stride then pick back up - as horse gets stronger/more willing - will ask for more correct strides) than every 2-3 circles but it is the same idea. Absolutely agree on the mind blown horses. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| 2H~QH I think we are on the same page :-) But I want to add that I'm not constantly asking a horse for this. My horses know to do this and then they will get rewarded. After a week, maybe two if they aren't able to lope a collected circle without correction then I'm heading to the vet looking for a pain issue. They should stay collected and work collected until I release by letting them out of the circle to rest. At first yes I do what you do but they should learn to stay there and if they can't stay there once taught and rewarded they normally have pain issues.
If you've got a finished horse that must constantly be nagged at everyday for collection issues then you most likely have a pain issue. Its the first gauge I use to start figuring out any open horse's problems that is sent here. If they do everything correct but can not lope a collected right circle without me nagging at them, once they have figured out what is being asked of them, I start looking for lameness or health issues on that right side. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 239
| astreakinchic - 2015-04-30 1:09 PM 2H~QH I think we are on the same page :-) But I want to add that I'm not constantly asking a horse for this. My horses know to do this and then they will get rewarded. After a week, maybe two if they aren't able to lope a collected circle without correction then I'm heading to the vet looking for a pain issue. They should stay collected and work collected until I release by letting them out of the circle to rest. At first yes I do what you do but they should learn to stay there and if they can't stay there once taught and rewarded they normally have pain issues. If you've got a finished horse that must constantly be nagged at everyday for collection issues then you most likely have a pain issue. Its the first gauge I use to start figuring out any open horse's problems that is sent here. If they do everything correct but can not lope a collected right circle without me nagging at them, once they have figured out what is being asked of them, I start looking for lameness or health issues on that right side.
Yup!! Agree again my broke horses know that they can lope circles with their withers up...the OP's horse doesn't sound like one that necessarily is at that stage yet (5yo that is high headed) that's why I recommend the more frequent ask-and-release, that is what works for me.
I am super Type A so I readily admit I can get too picky with my horses (it does work out well for the reiners though LOL).
I like the way u think! | |
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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | Collection is not about the height of their head. It is about their entire body.... there are amazing dressage horses....hunters....who carry their head pretty high. It is their natural collected frame. Being collected is hard work for a horse and really puts one in shape.... a horse's conformation really determines the height of their head at collection. Don't get caught up focusing on head height as the measure of collection -- it's about driving up under themselves from behind.... | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 173
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow | I think we may be confusing riding around "on the bit" and "collection". They are not the same thing. In fact, you can have a horse "on the bit", "bridled up", what ever you choose to call it and they may still be strung out through the body and hollow.
Someone explained why a horse needs to travel collected and it really stuck with me. Try to carry a 50 pound child on your back. Try it first with your back hollow and then round your back and see which is easier. The rounded back is stronger and can carry more weight longer. You may even notice that you have better balance with a rounded back.
Training a horse to ride around on the bit takes time to buld up their neck muscels so a few minutes at a time workig up to longer periods of time is good. In between, let them lower their head and stretch out. This stretches their back and feels good. you can travel at the walk or the trot with a nicely strecthc neck. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| *Sigh* I would hope everyone on a barrel racing site would know that when we refer to collection we absolutely mean that the horse is rounded and up underneath themselves. Collection is definitely not just about giving to the bit. But everyone was probably referencing the OP's questions about breaking at the poll.
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | When you teach a horse to round their back and drive up underneath themselves, the head naturally comes down in the process.
There's an exercise that a pleasure friend of mine taught me that I absolutely love because there's multiple benefits to it and the horses really do love it. It teaches them to drive from behind while at the same time they stretch down to the bit contact. They'll seek out the bit contact when you do it.
You start out doing really small circle with the inside rein elevated, outside rein elevated and away from their neck. You want contact on the bit. Your goal is to get true bend and true forward movement at the same time - reaching from the hind end to push you forward. To get that you sit deeper and push with your seat, squeeze with the entire leg. You hold that frame and ask until you feel them bend and move forward like you're asking. You'll feel a softness when it happens. When you feel the bend & forward movement, you relax your cues, let the reins slide through your hands as they stretch down into the contact.
When they lose the momentum and the softness then you do it again.
Stretching seems to relax them anyhow and this helps to build a top line, gets them soft through the face and rib cage, and keeps them moving forward while learning to seek out contact on the bit.
I do short spurts of things. Ask for something for a very short period of time, and give them a break doing something else, and then come back to it again. Mentally even older horses are like kids. If you drill on something they get frustrated and they lose their confidence. So I try to mix it up and do things in little doses.
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | astreakinchic - 2015-05-01 11:10 AM
*Sigh* I would hope everyone on a barrel racing site would know that when we refer to collection we absolutely mean that the horse is rounded and up underneath themselves. Collection is definitely not just about giving to the bit. But everyone was probably referencing the OP's questions about breaking at the poll.
I don't know why anyone would think that everyone would know the true definition of collection. Two minutes spent observing the warmup pen at a barrel race is enough to prove that only about 1% know what it means to have a horse properly engaged and "through". | |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| WrapSnap - 2015-05-01 1:29 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-05-01 11:10 AM
*Sigh* I would hope everyone on a barrel racing site would know that when we refer to collection we absolutely mean that the horse is rounded and up underneath themselves. Collection is definitely not just about giving to the bit. But everyone was probably referencing the OP's questions about breaking at the poll.
I don't know why anyone would think that everyone would know the true definition of collection. Two minutes spent observing the warmup pen at a barrel race is enough to prove that only about 1% know what it means to have a horse properly engaged and "through".
^^^^^^touche LOL touche 
I just felt the comments were directed at me. I feel like some ppl have no idea of how to make a horse work or get one light and using its self.
I try and give simple and short answers ppl can understand and use, no its not an end all be all definition but the OP was talking about them not giving their head/face (I always refer to it as face not head) so I tried to give info to help. But yes everyone that said horses need to be engaged, in frame, and up under themselves is absolutely correct. On the headset yes actually all horses will carry their heads at different levels naturally but when you ask them to break at the poll they should give their face, not be a giraffe and flip u the bird, to clarify my point. | |
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Posts: 113
| WrapSnap - 2015-05-01 12:29 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-05-01 11:10 AM
*Sigh* I would hope everyone on a barrel racing site would know that when we refer to collection we absolutely mean that the horse is rounded and up underneath themselves. Collection is definitely not just about giving to the bit. But everyone was probably referencing the OP's questions about breaking at the poll.
I don't know why anyone would think that everyone would know the true definition of collection. Two minutes spent observing the warmup pen at a barrel race is enough to prove that only about 1% know what it means to have a horse properly engaged and "through".
I am sure people would say this about me because I don't generally ask for a lot of flexion and collection when I warm up, and I also have a very nicely broke horse that throws their head ALOT when I warm up at an event  | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Well thanks for all the different opinions ! The 5 yr old will round her back & engage her hind end . She actually "collects ".. But she is also a lot more normal & teachable than the 8 yr old . She set in her ways & thst consists of flipping her head when she gets the least bit worked up. She will not collect up . You can get get to give her face at a lope but she's just running around on her front end .. She will collect for very short intervals . She's very hard to push up under herself , she will do anything to not use her hind end . She is 100% sound & healthy as well . She's just been unbroke sense 3 yrs old , I bought her at 6 . Running the pattern , completely unbroke . So who's the dumb one :) I've been trying to get her broke , but she's hot & full of bad habits . I can't get the hip swinging out of her . Getting very frustrating .. But that what I get for buying her in the first place ! | |
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | MeepMeep - 2015-05-01 2:59 PM
WrapSnap - 2015-05-01 12:29 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-05-01 11:10 AM
*Sigh* I would hope everyone on a barrel racing site would know that when we refer to collection we absolutely mean that the horse is rounded and up underneath themselves. Collection is definitely not just about giving to the bit. But everyone was probably referencing the OP's questions about breaking at the poll.
I don't know why anyone would think that everyone would know the true definition of collection. Two minutes spent observing the warmup pen at a barrel race is enough to prove that only about 1% know what it means to have a horse properly engaged and "through".
I am sure people would say this about me because I don't generally ask for a lot of flexion and collection when I warm up, and I also have a very nicely broke horse that throws their head ALOT when I warm up at an event
Actually, most people say it about me, as I rarely ride one on the vertical. You can bet your bippy that they are engaged, withers and shoulders lifted, full of impulsion and can dang sure be asked to come onto the vertical with a wiggle of your pinky finer. | |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Fancy Lass - 2015-04-29 6:59 PM I wanted to get opinions on this . I'm always looking to improve my two horses foundation . I ride about 3/4 days a week . When I ride I work on moving body parts , collection , bending etc. I make them stay soft in the face a lot .. Kind of like dressage horses .. I like them to ride like that. Don't get me wrong , I'll let them walk on a loose rein here & there . One mare I have one mare, 5 yrs old . I bought her almost a year ago with no foundation at all . When I lope circles she naturally wants to be extremely high headed .. I hate it , it's just overly high .. So I always make her bring it down & break at the poll. So basically I'm asking everyone's opinions on this subject . Sometimes I feel bad making them ride around broke all the time lol but if I let them slip out of it much at all , things seem to fall apart pretty quickly . you have a 5 yr old with no foundation and you are "making" her bring her head down and break at poll..First breaking at poll isnt collection.
shes 5 with no foundation therefore no strength to carry herself .
you need the strength to carry herself to be collected to make it easy for her and to be light in bridle and break at poll easily.. Head set is Not a correct way. Id much rather allow them to have their head anywhere at that age and properly LEARN to carry theirself over time and develop the strength.. TO MAKE them carry their head is only going to make her sore.. a natural collection should be from their body not head and will not make one sore. ifs she's high headed she is weak.. its difficult for her to transfer her weight to hind.. you need to reevaulate your training program to work on that. Id make sure there isnt pain . I would also learn to Longline her. It does wonders for their back and helps them figure it out without the rider in the way and it will take time but you cant "make " them carry theirself, it can be forced yes.. but then you end up with all sorts of issues..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-05-02 8:41 AM
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
I started to answer your question in detail, but I feel like we are beating a dead horse on this collection thing. I will tell you that "Yes" I do keep my horses in a collected frame 80% of the time when I ride. Collection is pilates for horses...
Here is a good explanation on collection vs breaking at the poll and how they are used together.
Please remember that it helps so much to ride a horse that can collect properly so that you understand the "feel" you are looking for. At our clinics, I put everyone on my horses so they have an opportunity to feel what it is we are trying to accomplish. Actually feeling it is the best tool by far.
Good luck!
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm
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Riding collected or not daily ?