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Itchy Boobs
Posts: 360
 
| Do any of you bit your good horses down? If so how often and
What do you do and use? |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
 
| rodeochick123 - 2015-05-05 12:18 PM
Do any of you bit your good horses down? If so how often and
What do you do and use?
Why would you do this if the horse is a 1D, finished horse? Is there some kind of problem your wanting to correct? |
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Member
Posts: 12
| astreakinchic - 2015-05-05 11:23 AM
rodeochick123 - 2015-05-05 12:18 PM
Do any of you bit your good horses down? If so how often and
What do you do and use?
Why would you do this if the horse is a 1D, finished horse? Is there some kind of problem your wanting to correct?
Agree |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | And what is the reason for this?  |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Not normally, but I did have one that I would work in the roundpen once every week or two, tied around each way and bitted back...Just until she got really soft. It was the best way to keep her shoulders lifted and light. It didn't take more then 5-10 minutes. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 304
Location: Up and over to the right | Sounds like you don't ride a 1D horse to me... |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | I dont even do this to my colts...we called it bitting up though.......over the years i have found much better ways to get my point across.......M |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I'm sorry but I feel like bitting one back is a gimmick. They are held in position basically. If you have it loose yes they can learn to give and the pressure releases but for some they never learn to give they constantly push against it, whereas if you were working on them with your hands you could give a lil when they give and by give and take make them softer/lighter. If you work on them with your hands you are teaching them to carrying themselves correctly.
Now some young horses can benefit from being bited down/back in the round pen but over time i've quit doing that because its just an easy way out/gimmick that you can fix better by taking some time and doing it yourself.
I know some "professionals" train this way still and advocate it in magazine articles etc..... but IMO your not teaching the horse your making him and thats why you need to repeat it once a week to keep him soft. Not that you don't need to repeat keeping them soft with your hands. IMO its a lot less work to teach one while riding than to go round pen that horse for awhile, because I can ride them around and work on other exercises while I work on keeping them soft in the face.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-05-05 1:32 PM
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | no |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Done correctly it can be a very good tool, but it is not to be over used. People like to assume that if one uses this tool that they don't get the softness with their hands, but I use both. I am not advocating for everyone to use this tool, honestly I haven't done it in probably about 3 years, but I don't feel it is to be demonized. It can and does work in certain circumstances. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | What kind of issue are you having that makes you feel like your horse needs to be bitted up? |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| astreakinchic - 2015-05-05 1:31 PM I'm sorry but I feel like bitting one back is a gimmick. They are held in position basically. If you have it loose yes they can learn to give and the pressure releases but for some they never learn to give they constantly push against it, whereas if you were working on them with your hands you could give a lil when they give and by give and take make them softer/lighter. If you work on them with your hands you are teaching them to carrying themselves correctly. Now some young horses can benefit from being bited down/back in the round pen but over time i've quit doing that because its just an easy way out/gimmick that you can fix better by taking some time and doing it yourself. I know some "professionals" train this way still and advocate it in magazine articles etc..... but IMO your not teaching the horse your making him and thats why you need to repeat it once a week to keep him soft. Not that you don't need to repeat keeping them soft with your hands. IMO its a lot less work to teach one while riding than to go round pen that horse for awhile, because I can ride them around and work on other exercises while I work on keeping them soft in the face.
The horse I did this with once every week to two weeks was one of the most broke horses, if not THE most broke horse I have ever ridden/trained. It wasn't a matter of not being broke/soft or being "made" to do anything...It was all about the shoulder and not taking short cuts that sometimes older horses try to take. Like I said, with this horse it took 5 to 10 minutes (closer to the 5 to do both sides and bit back) and we were done. This is what worked for this horse. Edited to add the horse wasn't tied around and chased around the round pen...I worked this horse around my body on the ground as it was tied around.
Edited by MeepMeep 2015-05-05 2:10 PM
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 Veteran
Posts: 173
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow | It's a short cut. Lots of trainers do it so they can make progress faster but it creates a hole like a pothole you have to keep going back to refill. Don't be tempted. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| A good friend of ours sent an expensive roping horse to the trainers for a tune up- he broke his neck bitting hin down. |
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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | Never. Not colts, not finished horses. Like another poster said, there are better ways to get your point across. My horses stay soft, supple, flexible because I spend time teaching/training, and I use daily methods during riding to keep them that way. You would be surprised at just how much a horse can learn when they have a relief point during training.
I even managed to throw away all my draw reins and running martingales when I learned better ways to do things. |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| There must be some crazy methods of doing this because the ways being described sound disturbing |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Can you please describe what you are referring? Are you meaning a heavier bit or tieing head around? |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | I agree...It sounds more like most people don't know how to properly adjust their training equipment or how long to use an aid during a training session.
Horses shouldn't be bitted up and left, draw reins shouldn't be used without another set of reins as a primary, and a running martingale shouldn't engage in any way to hold a horses head down. The rings should be adjusted to meet the throatlatch, but that's rarely how you see hobby horse people use them.
When I see posts like this I'm generally shocked that the written word isn't carried over to actual use in the arena. I can usually count on one hand the "broke" horses at a barrel race and point out in FB pictures that their horse isn't one of them. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| I'll bit one up before I'll use draw reins. It's all in how you do it, like meepmeep said. Its a gradual process of applying more pressure with out scaring one. If you have a horse that blows up, flips over, falls down, when you bitted it up, you applied way to much pressure too soon! I'll use it on any horse I see that will benefit but mainly on colts in their first few rides.
Edited by FlyingJT 2015-05-06 9:28 AM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | If I'm having trouble getting through to one, or I don't feel safe making my point while riding because they want to throw a fit, I will ground drive. If you do it right, you can get a better pressure/release and won't get them behind the bit like usually happens when one is tied back. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | I will never bit down any of my horses. Ever. If I can't teach them to be soft with my own hands and my own riding, then I'm not doing my job.
Hands can give and take based on the situation.
A bit TIED off to a saddle horn ... or stirrups ... or whatever, cannot give and take and feel when to release the horse.
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| Bitting one up gives them instant reward unlike out own hands that we may miss. It also is consistent, unlike hands would be. It rewards the same places everytime. It's a clear message for them. It's not cheating, it's not saying a trainer isn't a good trainer or someone doesn't have good hands, it's a tool. I like it, by the third day the bitting up process is significantly shortened and they are better equipped and prepared to handle leg pressure along with my hands, etc. to each their own though.
Edited by FlyingJT 2015-05-05 4:27 PM
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 Special Somebody
Posts: 3951
Location: Finally horseback again.... | The last one I saw that was bitted up as described had a fractured mandible with exposed bone....
Not a practice I use or recommend. |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Canchasr1 - 2015-05-05 4:27 PM The last one I saw that was bitted up as described had a fractured mandible with exposed bone....
Not a practice I use or recommend.
I've seen damaged necks too. From broken vertebrae to torn soft tissue. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I will do it on my mare, for about 5 minutes both ways in a smooth snaffle, usually only if she is being really hard to turn though, which hasn't been recently. |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| FlyingJT - 2015-05-05 4:26 PM
Bitting one up gives them instant reward unlike out own hands that we may miss. It also is consistent, unlike hands would be. It rewards the same places everytime. It's a clear message for them. It's not cheating, it's not saying a trainer isn't a good trainer or someone doesn't have good hands, it's a tool. I like it, by the third day the bitting up process is significantly shortened and they are better equipped and prepared to handle leg pressure along with my hands, etc. to each their own though.
FlyingJT and rachellyn80 ! 
People must be thinking that bitting up means to tie their chin to their chest where they can't get any relief. The way I was taught and have always bitted up is with homemade draw reins and they can find the release. Once they find the release it's quite a quick process when you bit them up in the future. They drop that head into that spot! It's quite humane, safe and effective
Edited by MeepMeep 2015-05-05 6:00 PM
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8699
Location: the end of the rainbow | http://www.scienceofmotion.com/i_reasons_why_we_do_not_use_siderein... This is about how I feel about tying one around too. It has its time and place but I believe it is way over used.
Edited by willrodeo4food 2015-05-05 6:04 PM
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Location: Texas | I agree with FJT and Meep.
If it is done properly, with the right bit, it is a great training tool. I do this with my 2 year olds. I use a snaffle, absolutely no shank or curb bit and it's done for short periods of time. Not 10+ minutes to hours and I do not do it as punishment.
I have only used this training method once on a finished head horse who would turn his and bend his neck around to the right (in the box). This particular horse rides in a snaffle, still too this day. I got off him, unclipped his tie-down and tied the left rein to my left D ring, in less than 5 minutes, the problem was fixed. I have seen many ropers 'correct' this problem by using hotshots or whipping them in neck with a rope. I think my method was much better... JMO 
Edited by EqualRanch 2015-05-05 6:10 PM
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 Loves to compete
Posts: 5760
Location: Oakdale, CA | MeepMeep - 2015-05-05 3:53 PM
FlyingJT - 2015-05-05 4:26 PM
Bitting one up gives them instant reward unlike out own hands that we may miss. It also is consistent, unlike hands would be. It rewards the same places everytime. It's a clear message for them. It's not cheating, it's not saying a trainer isn't a good trainer or someone doesn't have good hands, it's a tool. I like it, by the third day the bitting up process is significantly shortened and they are better equipped and prepared to handle leg pressure along with my hands, etc. to each their own though.
FlyingJT and rachellyn80 !
People must be thinking that bitting up means to tie their chin to their chest where they can't get any relief. The way I was taught and have always bitted up is with homemade draw reins and they can find the release. Once they find the release it's quite a quick process when you bit them up in the future. They drop that head into that spot! It's quite humane, safe and effective
thankyou! I think its a wonderful tool if used properly. Occasionally I bit my mare up in a now and then and love it. I just make sure she can release herself easily cause that's what I believe.....
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | If you are asking this question, then to me you dont know how to do this, you are getting different ideal's from a few people on here but I would ask for help from someone that knows what they are doing and can show you how to do this in person, not saying that the BB's on here dont know how, she just needs help in person from someone that can show her how to do this so that she wont seriously hurt her horse. If she feels like this needs to be done to her horse..
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2015-05-05 8:59 PM
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
When done correctly, by an experienced horseperson, it is one of the absolute best tools you can use. Ride ANY horse I have ever trained or started and you will see that the proof is in the pudding.
It is certainly not the only tool I use, but it is a big part of my program, and certainly not the easy way out.
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | It is my opinion that so many see the practice of bitting one up/back/down (however one may opt to refer to it) so negatively because they have witnessed it being done so improperly. We've all seen the folks who say that their horse won't give to one side, or the other and then, go and tie their horse around, very tight to that side and leave them standing in their stalls like that. Many people will say that the horse isn't giving to the bit vertically and go bit their horse up again very tightly and walk away. This is not a tool to be used to "force" education into a horse. We cannot teach one that has not been shown how to yield laterally, or vertically to the bit to do so simply by tying their head into an exaggerated position. For horses who are properly broke and educated to the bridle and when done in a proper manner however, this can be a very valuable tool. |
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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | grinandbareit - 2015-05-05 11:10 PM When done correctly, by an experienced horseperson, it is one of the absolute best tools you can use. Ride ANY horse I have ever trained or started and you will see that the proof is in the pudding. It is certainly not the only tool I use, but it is a big part of my program, and certainly not the easy way out.
If you have time, do you know any videos that explain how to do this correctly and safely? I would just like to see the correct way, thank you!
And random, but awesome runs in OKC... I saw you placed 11th in the qualifier and was pretty bummed, I sure hope you'll try again. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 232
Location: Winging It in KY | grinandbareit - 2015-05-06 12:10 AM When done correctly, by an experienced horseperson, it is one of the absolute best tools you can use. Ride ANY horse I have ever trained or started and you will see that the proof is in the pudding. It is certainly not the only tool I use, but it is a big part of my program, and certainly not the easy way out.
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | got boost? - 2015-05-05 7:08 PM MeepMeep - 2015-05-05 3:53 PM FlyingJT - 2015-05-05 4:26 PM Bitting one up gives them instant reward unlike out own hands that we may miss. It also is consistent, unlike hands would be. It rewards the same places everytime. It's a clear message for them. It's not cheating, it's not saying a trainer isn't a good trainer or someone doesn't have good hands, it's a tool. I like it, by the third day the bitting up process is significantly shortened and they are better equipped and prepared to handle leg pressure along with my hands, etc. to each their own though. FlyingJT and rachellyn80 ! People must be thinking that bitting up means to tie their chin to their chest where they can't get any relief. The way I was taught and have always bitted up is with homemade draw reins and they can find the release. Once they find the release it's quite a quick process when you bit them up in the future. They drop that head into that spot! It's quite humane, safe and effective thankyou! I think its a wonderful tool if used properly. Occasionally I bit my mare up in a now and then and love it. I just make sure she can release herself easily cause that's what I believe.....
Exactly. We don't use any requested head placement for any extended period of time. It's all about teaching them the release. Doing everything from their back sounds great in theory, but sometimes it's just a little too dangerous to be up there and you have to go back to the ground. Like Vonda mentioned, we also do LOTS of ground driving on broke horses. I love ground driving everything from yearlings to ponies to my finished horses if I'm trying to change things up and give them a different outlook without being intimidating.
Saying that you'll never bit a horse back because you saw someone do it incorrectly is like saying that you'll never perform a rollback because you saw someone rip their horses face off turning it around. You can't compare bad horsemanship to using a training aid in a manner that will teach a horse to release to it's own pressure. |
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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I've hung out with trainers that tie everything around, and trainers that wouldn't dream of it...
I like the theory of not tying them. I get that they "release themselves" but there is no softness (soft feel, picking up lightly), it's all or none, and there is no reward for try.
Also, the assumption that headset = collection is far from the truth. Collection cannot be taught no matter how the horse's head is tied.
To answer the OP's question, no I would never bit my good horse down.
I might consider bitting down (assuming you mean tying around, side reins, etc.) my young horse, but would try to avoid that situation.
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 Regular
Posts: 91
Location: Pilot Point, TX | I agree with so many of the people above - if it's done correctly, it's a great tool.
Of course, when I think of bitting up, I don't think of tying their nose to their chest or around to the stirrup. I'm sure there are some reasonable reasons for that, but it's not any part of our training program.
I can't think of any open horse we've used it on, but I know there are some that I have thought it might be a good refresher. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FlyingJT - 2015-05-05 2:26 PM Bitting one up gives them instant reward unlike out own hands that we may miss. It also is consistent, unlike hands would be. It rewards the same places everytime. It's a clear message for them. It's not cheating, it's not saying a trainer isn't a good trainer or someone doesn't have good hands, it's a tool. I like it, by the third day the bitting up process is significantly shortened and they are better equipped and prepared to handle leg pressure along with my hands, etc. to each their own though.
If you're bitting them "down" or not giving a horse instant relief from pressure when they give, you're not doing it right. There are many people who don't know how to bit up properly. I used it, loved the way it worked. It's not a gimmick as you usually never have to do it many times or ever again once they learn the lesson that is being taught. So many horses aren't "broke" in the face. I don't know how people can enjoy riding them that way. Makes me nuts.  |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | grinandbareit - 2015-05-05 11:10 PM
When done correctly, by an experienced horseperson, it is one of the absolute best tools you can use. Ride ANY horse I have ever trained or started and you will see that the proof is in the pudding.
It is certainly not the only tool I use, but it is a big part of my program, and certainly not the easy way out.
Yep. i don't know how to do it, but I know the trainer I've used for a long time does it. I've done something similar with a surcingle in a round pen that a reining trainer showed me once but i've never left them to their own devices with it on. It was always loose enough to where they weren't cranked down and once they had their head in the right spot they got the pressure off. I also had it where if something happened the reins would come untied. |
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | Personally I think it is a great way to get a horse to break at the poll and be strung out behind. At least that is usually what I see. IMO softness comes naturally after balance, most people worry about all this before a horse is developed enough muscularly to handle it.
I used to do it till I learned different ways to get the same thing done that works much better for me.
ETA: I have also seen several horses have their necks damaged by being bitted up to tightly for way too long.
Edited by equussynergy 2015-05-06 12:24 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 173
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow | equussynergy - 2015-05-06 12:22 PM
Personally I think it is a great way to get a horse to break at the poll and be strung out behind. At least that is usually what I see. IMO softness comes naturally after balance, most people worry about all this before a horse is developed enough muscularly to handle it.
I used to do it till I learned different ways to get the same thing done that works much better for me.
ETA: I have also seen several horses have their necks damaged by being bitted up to tightly for way too long.
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Bitting down your 1d good horse