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 ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
   
Location: In My Own Dream Land | Hi all.
This might get long, so please bare with me.
Ended up with a mare last fall. Was ran maybe 4 times before I got her. She is just now 6 this year. She is one of those that swings her butt and wont drive around or off a barrel.. I did get her xrayed and injected this spring, been over by a chiro, teeth checked, etc. So I don't beleive its a pain issue, maybe a memory of it hurting...
Anyway, I have been riding her in an oring and martingale working on stop back etc. I have her doing roll backs, and slow spins, but when you ask her to stop, she throws her nose extremely high up into the sky. she will lope collected circles, nose tucked, but stop is a major issue..
Now, I have been doing SLOW work, walk/trot only on the barrels to try and get her to work differently, but from what I'm discovering, its drilled in her mind, of where to put her feet, and I believe the positioning is part of our problem..
I'm wondering if you all have any suggestions on drills, or other things to help me with this. She has a ton of ability, (ran Friday and was 3rd in 1d, with major mistakes) I do have a video of her run, if you think it will help.
Video Link: https://youtu.be/rlFbHtwaUUQ My run starts at 29:30
Thanks in advance..
Edited by tThompson 2015-05-11 10:42 AM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| I have a mare exactly like yours !! She's now 8 .. So even longer of doing it this way. She is just like yours , it's just drilled in her head that that is the way it's to be done. I will be following this post bc it sure is aggravating ! They can run in the 1 d without using their body correctly at all . I can't imagine if they did ! |
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ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 10:41 AM I have a mare exactly like yours !! She's now 8 .. So even longer of doing it this way. She is just like yours , it's just drilled in her head that that is the way it's to be done. I will be following this post bc it sure is aggravating ! They can run in the 1 d without using their body correctly at all . I can't imagine if they did !
They did interval timing at this jackpot.. She was 1.4 seconds slower in her turns than the winner, but yet only got outran by .1.. Her straights, she outran everyone by .8....
So I know its there.. I agree, Frurstrating!!! |
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 Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | Sounds a lot like a mare I have been working on.
Work on your one rein stops. Make sure she stops absolutely straight and if she pops her hip out bump it back in. Also continue to work on getting her soft laterally...this will help her vertical flexion to get softer when you ask to stop. Ride her in a draw bit a couple times a week to help encourage that softness. Keep her shaped up nice and ask her to trot off, hold that shape and ask her to stop...don't give her nose and then ask for a nice fluid back. Once she feels super soft and light then release. Repeat. Now that she is probably feeling better if her hocks were bothering her now you just need to retrain her a bit. She most likely changed her style to protect herself against pain so now you need to reteach her how to use her body correctly. It will come but it will take time and consistancy. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Some horses need more then a one dose of injections. Sometimes injections don't work.
If the horse is throwing nose up when stopping, I would say a pain issue still
Stifles, hocks, si joints
How did the X-rays look? What grade of lameness was the horse when flexed? Did you block joints to identify the painful area? |
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ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | cheryl makofka - 2015-05-11 10:49 AM Some horses need more then a one dose of injections. Sometimes injections don't work. If the horse is throwing nose up when stopping, I would say a pain issue still Stifles, hocks, si joints How did the X-rays look? What grade of lameness was the horse when flexed? Did you block joints to identify the painful area?
She was graded a .5 when flexed. She has been getting better, slowly. Before injections, you'd ask her to lope and she'd try to give you a concussion.. She no longer does that. She is a very nervous type horse. Second you step on, she prances, even at home. Altho she has started to mellow out after injections. |
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ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | Just Bring It - 2015-05-11 10:45 AM Sounds a lot like a mare I have been working on.
Work on your one rein stops. Make sure she stops absolutely straight and if she pops her hip out bump it back in. Also continue to work on getting her soft laterally...this will help her vertical flexion to get softer when you ask to stop. Ride her in a draw bit a couple times a week to help encourage that softness. Keep her shaped up nice and ask her to trot off, hold that shape and ask her to stop...don't give her nose and then ask for a nice fluid back. Once she feels super soft and light then release. Repeat. Now that she is probably feeling better if her hocks were bothering her now you just need to retrain her a bit. She most likely changed her style to protect herself against pain so now you need to reteach her how to use her body correctly. It will come but it will take time and consistancy.
Part of me thinks she was actually trained this way. I do have a couple videos of her as a 4 yr old and she ran the exact same way..
I'm not saying it isn't something I'm doing.. It could be. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| tThompson - 2015-05-11 10:54 AM
Just Bring It - 2015-05-11 10:45 AM Sounds a lot like a mare I have been working on.
Work on your one rein stops. Make sure she stops absolutely straight and if she pops her hip out bump it back in. Also continue to work on getting her soft laterally...this will help her vertical flexion to get softer when you ask to stop. Ride her in a draw bit a couple times a week to help encourage that softness. Keep her shaped up nice and ask her to trot off, hold that shape and ask her to stop...don't give her nose and then ask for a nice fluid back. Once she feels super soft and light then release. Repeat. Now that she is probably feeling better if her hocks were bothering her now you just need to retrain her a bit. She most likely changed her style to protect herself against pain so now you need to reteach her how to use her body correctly. It will come but it will take time and consistancy.
Part of me thinks she was actually trained this way. I do have a couple videos of her as a 4 yr old and she ran the exact same way..
I'm not saying it isn't something I'm doing.. It could be.
This is so frustrating ! I can imagine the time mine looses in a turn .. But she is just wicked fast ! Mine is 100% sound . Always has been & still does it .. She was started this way .. No body control at all .. Now it's instilled in her head . I want her to turn right so bad ! But I'm about to give up :( it's so hard to change her when she's done it for 5 years .. |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | I would also treat her for uclers if she is such a nervous horse. |
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Check into Connie Combs squares exercises. She really focuses on the horses using their hind end which leads to more power and horses not having the soreness issues. |
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ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | Just Bring It - 2015-05-11 11:13 AM
I would also treat her for uclers if she is such a nervous horse.
Already on it.. :)  |
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ND Sweetheart
Posts: 3471
Location: In My Own Dream Land | Thank you! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| I really need to stick to the squares exercise.. But I'm kinda dumb about it lol I get confused on how to do it at say a lope .. I guess you just lope into the first until you are square at the barrel & stop . What I get confused on is do you stop then square like before the barrel , I guess your rate point , then stop square again to the left of the first barrel when you go in ? I'm sure it's not this difficult lol I need someone to draw me a diagram ha ha . sorry , I'm not trying to steal the thread ! |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Personally I think your horse is using herself very well. I don't think you are putting her in the right spot, you are pulling her front end into the barrel and asking her to turn a stride early. Driving all the way to the backside will help her keep her momentum and not dump in a turn. Also I would put a bit with no gag and more direct pull on her since she looks to be really light and bendy already. Your horse's style is more of a flat, low, run around and not pivot. Make more runs and drive up into the turn and I bet she'll get snappier in those turns. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Here is a video of mine.. Her first is terrible .. You can see where she stops her front end & swings her hindquarters .. She's terrible about it ! I always have an inconsistent , wide first bc she goes out of her way to throw her head & front end down .. Instead of rating in there on her rear .. Also has trouble finishing the 3 rd barrel for the same reason .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWBPSOniBuE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FFlmlJh4cGo
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHfZ8QSCfXo |
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More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 11:30 AM I really need to stick to the squares exercise.. But I'm kinda dumb about it lol I get confused on how to do it at say a lope .. I guess you just lope into the first until you are square at the barrel & stop . What I get confused on is do you stop then square like before the barrel , I guess your rate point , then stop square again to the left of the first barrel when you go in ? I'm sure it's not this difficult lol I need someone to draw me a diagram ha ha . sorry , I'm not trying to steal the thread !
Connie doesn't have you stop before the barrel. Only on the back side of the barrel, stop them square and then move on. Do it at walk/trot/lope/gallop. I don't do it all the time but if I feel my mare isn't finishing her turns I revert back to Connies drills. |
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| MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 11:45 AM
Personally I think your horse is using herself very well. I don't think you are putting her in the right spot, you are pulling her front end into the barrel and asking her to turn a stride early. Driving all the way to the backside will help her keep her momentum and not dump in a turn. Also I would put a bit with no gag and more direct pull on her since she looks to be really light and bendy already. Your horse's style is more of a flat, low, run around and not pivot. Make more runs and drive up into the turn and I bet she'll get snappier in those turns.
Agree with this. I don't think it is so much swinging her rear out, but her front end is stalling out. Keep her front end moving by driving deeper into the turns.
Edited by MO gal 2015-05-11 12:09 PM
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Veteran
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There is nothing wrong with the way this horse runs. It looks like a timing and jockey issue to me. That is a nice horse. Not all horses "rate on their rear" or sit and drive on their hind end. Build to her strengths instead of trying to change her style. Too much energy is put into trying to mold these horses instead focusing on strengthening their style. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 12:09 PM
There is nothing wrong with the way this horse runs. It looks like a timing and jockey issue to me. That is a nice horse. Not all horses "rate on their rear" or sit and drive on their hind end. Build to her strengths instead of trying to change her style. Too much energy is put into trying to mold these horses instead focusing on strengthening their style.
She starts dropping her front end on me half way to the first . So how do I fix the drop .. She can run , but she doesn't always rate properly resulting in wide barrels . She's didn't even know how to back @ 6 yrs old .. Her whoa was terrible .. I have her much better now but she still won't give you her face vertically willingly . She'll bend laterally all day long . I'm trying not to change her style so much bc I realize I'm just picking at her . But ive had her 2 yrs now with no change |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| I don't see her dropping her front end going to the 1st |
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 Buttered Noodles Snacker
Posts: 4377
Location: NC | You can try squareing her around the barrels. Ride her sorta straight into the barrel then when you get to the back left corner sorta pivet her on her hindend lifting up her shoulders and crosing over. walk straight to the back right corner and do the same thing then straight to the 2nd barrel.
not sure if I explained that well.... It was something I would do with my mare when she would get too bendy.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| HorsesNHarleys - 2015-05-11 12:35 PM
You can try squareing her around the barrels. Ride her sorta straight into the barrel then when you get to the back left corner sorta pivet her on her hindend lifting up her shoulders and crosing over. walk straight to the back right corner and do the same thing then straight to the 2nd barrel.
not sure if I explained that well.... It was something I would do with my mare when she would get too bendy.
Makes sense :) she gets way to bendy.. She'll bend her neck anywhere but doesn't care where her body goes! I'll try it :) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 12:13 PM
MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 12:09 PM
There is nothing wrong with the way this horse runs. It looks like a timing and jockey issue to me. That is a nice horse. Not all horses "rate on their rear" or sit and drive on their hind end. Build to her strengths instead of trying to change her style. Too much energy is put into trying to mold these horses instead focusing on strengthening their style.
She starts dropping her front end on me half way to the first . So how do I fix the drop .. She can run , but she doesn't always rate properly resulting in wide barrels . She's didn't even know how to back @ 6 yrs old .. Her whoa was terrible .. I have her much better now but she still won't give you her face vertically willingly . She'll bend laterally all day long . I'm trying not to change her style so much bc I realize I'm just picking at her . But ive had her 2 yrs now with no change
I totally agree with meep meep. Very nice horse. Nothing wrong with her style just needs to be rode different. I think you are confusing her being front-endy with being a free runner. Free runners will take a bigger pocket drop and almost pick up more speed into the turn.
If you watch the run at flickerwood...Right about where you say she drops on her front end you start to pull back on her with both hands and don't drop her until she has already gone way by the barrel. To fix this you need to try to circle her and don't send her to the first. Let her just cruise. Keep her nose tipped coming out of the circle and right about where you go to pull back on her you need to go to the horn and lift with your inside rein. Almost kind of a bump and lift. If you she won't let you circle her then do the same just from the gate.
At home I would work on lots of stopping. Say whoa hold the reins back to your swells until she stops and gives her nose and maybe even takes a step back. Release as soon as she does. Go to the barrel stop about when her nose reaches the barrel and do the same. Make sure her hip is in and she stops straight. Really work and ask her to bend into that turn. She needs extra pocket to run around the barrel, you just need to help direct her around and forward. |
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Husband Spoiler
Posts: 4151
Location: North Dakota | tThompson - 2015-05-11 10:36 AM Hi all.
This might get long, so please bare with me.
Ended up with a mare last fall. Was ran maybe 4 times before I got her. She is just now 6 this year. She is one of those that swings her butt and wont drive around or off a barrel.. I did get her xrayed and injected this spring, been over by a chiro, teeth checked, etc. So I don't beleive its a pain issue, maybe a memory of it hurting...
Anyway, I have been riding her in an oring and martingale working on stop back etc. I have her doing roll backs, and slow spins, but when you ask her to stop, she throws her nose extremely high up into the sky. she will lope collected circles, nose tucked, but stop is a major issue..
Now, I have been doing SLOW work, walk/trot only on the barrels to try and get her to work differently, but from what I'm discovering, its drilled in her mind, of where to put her feet, and I believe the positioning is part of our problem..
I'm wondering if you all have any suggestions on drills, or other things to help me with this. She has a ton of ability, (ran Friday and was 3rd in 1d, with major mistakes) I do have a video of her run, if you think it will help.
Video Link: https://youtu.be/rlFbHtwaUUQ My run starts at 29:30
Thanks in advance..
I watched your video. Your mare really isn't that bad. I should show you my before and after runs of my mare! lol Well I suppose I could show them to you on facebook. lol
I would work on getting her really soft in her rib cage and work on getting her reaching up with that inside hind leg.
As for your riding I would work on your approach to first a little bit. It's hard to tell because of where the video starts but I think you should have maybe lined her up a little closer to the middle of the arena and arced her in a little more gradually. It almost looks like you started her a little further to the right not giving her much room to shape properly going in. Then I would ride her with just slight shape and guide with your hand all the way to the backside...be sure to get the shoulder past the barrel. It looked like you started your turn a little soon on all your barrels getting her in a bind. Give her more room and get her to loosen up her rib cage and that will help smoothen her out quite a bit.
I am not very good at explaining things online so I hope you can understand what I'm talking about. haha! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| TheDutchMan01 - 2015-05-11 12:57 PM
Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 12:13 PM
MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 12:09 PM
There is nothing wrong with the way this horse runs. It looks like a timing and jockey issue to me. That is a nice horse. Not all horses "rate on their rear" or sit and drive on their hind end. Build to her strengths instead of trying to change her style. Too much energy is put into trying to mold these horses instead focusing on strengthening their style.
She starts dropping her front end on me half way to the first . So how do I fix the drop .. She can run , but she doesn't always rate properly resulting in wide barrels . She's didn't even know how to back @ 6 yrs old .. Her whoa was terrible .. I have her much better now but she still won't give you her face vertically willingly . She'll bend laterally all day long . I'm trying not to change her style so much bc I realize I'm just picking at her . But ive had her 2 yrs now with no change
I totally agree with meep meep. Very nice horse. Nothing wrong with her style just needs to be rode different. I think you are confusing her being front-endy with being a free runner. Free runners will take a bigger pocket drop and almost pick up more speed into the turn.
If you watch the run at flickerwood...Right about where you say she drops on her front end you start to pull back on her with both hands and don't drop her until she has already gone way by the barrel. To fix this you need to try to circle her and don't send her to the first. Let her just cruise. Keep her nose tipped coming out of the circle and right about where you go to pull back on her you need to go to the horn and lift with your inside rein. Almost kind of a bump and lift. If you she won't let you circle her then do the same just from the gate.
At home I would work on lots of stopping. Say whoa hold the reins back to your swells until she stops and gives her nose and maybe even takes a step back. Release as soon as she does. Go to the barrel stop about when her nose reaches the barrel and do the same. Make sure her hip is in and she stops straight. Really work and ask her to bend into that turn. She needs extra pocket to run around the barrel, you just need to help direct her around and forward.
Helpful advice :) I would circle but it'd do no good only bc she will not bend her rib cage at all .. She will at home & when she relaxed but the minute she gets worked up in any way she will no longer bend around my leg .. She just gives her neck & her body swings like a board . I am trying to coast her to the first but she goes 90 miles an hour no matter how much I try to take off easily . I've tried several ways to ride her & none seem any better than the next . At home I can get her to lope into the first rounded with her nose in .. But anywhere else & shell tip her nose but us stuff in the body & don't bend her rib cage ..she doesn't reach with her front end at all . Even at home if I trot her into the barrels immediately she's got her hip to the outside & shoulder in .. I'm always pushing her hip in but she doesn't seem to take the hint . She has a hard time staying square . Im open to all suggestions on how to ride her & fix it , but she is definiteky agree runner .. And it's hard to keep her thinking vs reacting . |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Also ETA the person who started this horse couldn't get a good first either .. So I can assume its not all a timing issue or I would think the person that started her could have gotten it right . Not trying to sound rude in anyway ! I just wanted to let people know that |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 6:21 PM
Also ETA the person who started this horse couldn't get a good first either .. So I can assume its not all a timing issue or I would think the person that started her could have gotten it right . Not trying to sound rude in anyway ! I just wanted to let people know that
I think you are making a bigger deal of it than it needs to be. Yes in the last video your first was not good, but you didn't help until you got to the fence. You two hand rated her while lifting her off the turn and then pitched the reins. I don't see the first barrel as being bad in the first two videos, looks like her style of turning. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 6:30 PM
Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 6:21 PM
Also ETA the person who started this horse couldn't get a good first either .. So I can assume its not all a timing issue or I would think the person that started her could have gotten it right . Not trying to sound rude in anyway ! I just wanted to let people know that
I think you are making a bigger deal of it than it needs to be. Yes in the last video your first was not good, but you didn't help until you got to the fence. You two hand rated her while lifting her off the turn and then pitched the reins. I don't see the first barrel as being bad in the first two videos, looks like her style of turning.
Yes , but obviously there's many more runs on the horse & her first is almost always bad. Just looking for oopinions to help it . How would ride her into the barrel ? |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 6:34 PM
MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 6:30 PM
Fancy Lass - 2015-05-11 6:21 PM
Also ETA the person who started this horse couldn't get a good first either .. So I can assume its not all a timing issue or I would think the person that started her could have gotten it right . Not trying to sound rude in anyway ! I just wanted to let people know that
I think you are making a bigger deal of it than it needs to be. Yes in the last video your first was not good, but you didn't help until you got to the fence. You two hand rated her while lifting her off the turn and then pitched the reins. I don't see the first barrel as being bad in the first two videos, looks like her style of turning.
Yes , but obviously there's many more runs on the horse & her first is almost always bad. Just looking for oopinions to help it . How would ride her into the barrel ?
I would drive the horse all the way into the turn two handed and not drop until on the backside of the barrel, I might even turn two handed on the first. To give more support and "drive" her more around the turn instead of pull. I would also put a stiffer bit on the horse (not a heavy bit, just one with direct pull and I like something with a noseband). In your training I agree with HorsesNHarleys on ride past to the backside, pivot, crossing over the front end without letting her bend a lot in her slow barrel work, and ride straight to your approach on the next barrel. Then when you run let her have her style, she will be snappier from the slow work but still efficient. Obviously this would be easier to show you and not type, but I gave it a go... |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Well thanks ! Makes since .. I have two handed her around them , but when she throws her head to the ground like she does she pulls on your arms .. That's why I stopped doing it . But I agree with you . I will try it. I just feel she's going to fast to the first to ever make the turn . She's just always been in a snaffle . Usually twisted . She's never had a curb chain on .. And idk if I'd ever get her used to one , she already likes to flip her head .. She's so set in her ways |
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Veteran
Posts: 113
| Could try a ring combo bit with loose curb string. Many times a horse that likes to get down and work will get mad getting pulled on going into the first and then they will run by, even if she feels like she is going to run in there and go past maybe leave her alone a bit more and guide her in the turn rather then rate and pull. Maybe you've tried that, but if not it's worth a try. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| MeepMeep - 2015-05-11 6:49 PM
Could try a ring combo bit with loose curb string. Many times a horse that likes to get down and work will get mad getting pulled on going into the first and then they will run by, even if she feels like she is going to run in there and go past maybe leave her alone a bit more and guide her in the turn rather then rate and pull. Maybe you've tried that, but if not it's worth a try.
I'll try it :) I get what you are saying . Sounds like it would work ! |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | I would try just letting her cruise to the first until you get your timing/technique nailed down. Once you've got the muscle memory perfected, then send her in to work; just make sure she's not running faster than you can think  |
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Reteaching a horse to use hindend