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 Jr. Detective
    
Location: Beggs, OK | The back story on these horses is a long and ongoing issue with the mill, so we will skip that part and just show you what we've been able to accomplish this far. My horses have not looked right for a couple of years now...So the excuse that this is the normal April/May spring bloom from green grass is not applicable in any way. The vets that have been caring for them have told me that they looked fine and I couldn't expect them to gain much for what they've been through. I couldn't accept that as an answer so I continued my research and contacted Bluebonnet to see what they recommended as they seemed like the safest feed that would be available to me. I was told to put them on Bluebonnet Intensify Omega Force. They are getting 6# a day and 4oz a day of Bluebonnet Transform DSI as well as Bluebonnet Element Minerals free choice and grass hay and alfalfa. The results have been amazing.
This is Jones. Jones was my sickest horse. He's a five year old previously easy keeper and the top picture is when he was sick. The bottom picture is as he was recovering. I wanted to add one more picture just so that you can see what Jones looked like before he got sick....he's still not there and it doesn't matter because we won't be able to use him, but it makes me sick to see what this has done to him.
Edited by rachellyn80 2015-05-13 2:23 PM
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | This is my 28 year old mare. She has no teeth in the back and was really beginning to struggle. I thought she was looking great for her age on Purina Equine Sr Active...then we switched her to Bluebonnet Intensify Sr and she bloomed! She's also on Bluebonnet Transform DSI. I am so thrilled that this has given me more time with her. She runs and bucks and plays with my yearlings now.
The top picture was taken on April 16, 2015 and the second picture was taken this past Friday.
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Expert
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| Your story and pics scare me because I think back to all these horses that I've just known something was up with but couldn't put my finger on it and no one else (vets, chiro, etc) saw it.
Thanks for posting. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | This is a gelding that I bought back in October. He immediately began losing weight and wouldn't eat...So we treated him for ulcers using Gastrogard for 28 days. He was better but still not thriving so of course we decided that he had EPM. We treated him with both rounds of EPM drugs with limited improvement back in January before we found out about our feed issue.
These pictures were taken about 30 days apart.
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | They look great, rachellyn80! So happy that they are getting back healthy after all you have been through with the feeds. It feels so good to have horses that are getting back healthy after being sick for so long; i've been dealing with a sick horse and pulling at straws as well for a while. The pics of that yella mare just make my heart smile! Nicely done! And thank you for educating the rest of us on your journey and being willing to share your findings and your research! :) |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | This is Denali...my big gray boy...my biggest problem for the past several years. He's been treated for EPM three times. I have retired him twice (he's only 13) and have had more crying, frustrated fits than you can imagine trying to figure out what is wrong with him and why I couldn't keep him full OR sound! He has turned back into the big muscley monster that he was when we bought him 6 years ago. I am beyond thrilled with how he's looking and know that once we get him fit again he will be stunning.
The muddy picture is from March 20, when he had just spent three days at OSU doing cardiac testing and I let him be a pig. The second picture was taken late last week.
Edited by rachellyn80 2015-05-13 2:19 PM
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | astreakinchic - 2015-05-13 2:11 PM Your story and pics scare me because I think back to all these horses that I've just known something was up with but couldn't put my finger on it and no one else (vets, chiro, etc) saw it. Thanks for posting.
It makes me sick to know think how many people are going through this exact same thing today. We all get so stuck on what the vet said or what we think is right that we don't go back to the very basic principles. You HAVE to have a healthy digestive system to have a healthy horse...You always hear - No hoof, no horse...well I'm changing that now to -No gut, no horse. |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | They look awesome. I am glad you have been able to bring them back.
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Posts: 1611
| rachellyn80 - 2015-05-13 3:21 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-05-13 2:11 PM Your story and pics scare me because I think back to all these horses that I've just known something was up with but couldn't put my finger on it and no one else (vets, chiro, etc) saw it. Thanks for posting.
It makes me sick to know think how many people are going through this exact same thing today. We all get so stuck on what the vet said or what we think is right that we don't go back to the very basic principles. You HAVE to have a healthy digestive system to have a healthy horse...You always hear - No hoof, no horse...well I'm changing that now to -No gut, no horse.
BOOM! You need to write some articles to some magazines with your journey and thats your tag line "No gut, No horse!" |
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 Cute Little Imp
Posts: 2747
Location: N Texas | I am amazed at how awesome they look after such a short time! It also amazes me the huge difference just switching feeds can do. Your horses look awesome! I've been feeding the Purina Senior Active to my old guy for a little while now, but now you've got me considering switching him to Bluebonnet! Overall he looks really good, but his topline still needs some filling out. I don't know if that's just his age and how he is now, or if a different feed will fix it. I may give it a try, especially since you've seen such dramatic results so quickly. Thanks for sharing!! |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | astreakinchic - 2015-05-13 2:24 PM rachellyn80 - 2015-05-13 3:21 PM astreakinchic - 2015-05-13 2:11 PM Your story and pics scare me because I think back to all these horses that I've just known something was up with but couldn't put my finger on it and no one else (vets, chiro, etc) saw it. Thanks for posting. It makes me sick to know think how many people are going through this exact same thing today. We all get so stuck on what the vet said or what we think is right that we don't go back to the very basic principles. You HAVE to have a healthy digestive system to have a healthy horse...You always hear - No hoof, no horse...well I'm changing that now to -No gut, no horse. BOOM! You need to write some articles to some magazines with your journey and thats your tag line "No gut, No horse!"
I'm an information junkie, so I have subscriptions to sites that give you access to medical journals. I've had a great research partner with SG <3 and hope to share what we've learned with anyone else who's open to finding a better way to care for our horses. So much money is wasted on supplements, injections, and treatments that could all be avoided if we just looked at the food source first. Believe me, I've spent a small fortune on this stuff myself! If you're having to add this and that to your feed, then you have no idea what you are acutally giving your horse as it's all mixed together. You could completely wreck your horses insides just by loving them a little too much with additives.
Edited by rachellyn80 2015-05-13 2:39 PM
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 Tough Patooty
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Location: Sperry, OK | I have been feeding Blue Bonnet Omega Force for about a year now. Hero shed off this year, the quickest he ever has.. and he shed off BLACK instead of still being that sun burned brown. The last 5 years when he shed off, it was slow and patchy, and he was the same color after he shed off as he was before. The last time he shed off black, he was on Platinum.. but since that is so expensive, I stopped feeding it and he never looked as good til now. What is the Transform DSI? |
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Blessed 
Location: Here |  |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Thank goodness you were able to figure out it and see them healthy again. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | It's a digestive supplement that is actually part of the Intensify line of feeds from Bluebonnet. If you look at the label the Intensify feeds have this in them, but the Transform DSI has huge amounts of the probiotics and enzymes that are supposed to help guard against ulcers and other gastric issues. We have been using it as a recovery tool for our guys and intend to keep them on it at lower doses once they are stable.
http://bluebonnetfeeds.com/pdf/transform_dsi.pdf |
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Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | rachellyn80 - 2015-05-13 2:57 PM It's a digestive supplement that is actually part of the Intensify line of feeds from Bluebonnet. If you look at the label the Intensify feeds have this in them, but the Transform DSI has huge amounts of the probiotics and enzymes that are supposed to help guard against ulcers and other gastric issues. We have been using it as a recovery tool for our guys and intend to keep them on it at lower doses once they are stable.
http://bluebonnetfeeds.com/pdf/transform_dsi.pdf
Thanks Rachel. |
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 A Gopher's Worst Nightmare
Posts: 5094
Location: Southern Oregon | Do they sell this feed in Oregon anywhere? I have a few I would like to try it with. |
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Blessed
Location: Here | rachellyn80 - 2015-05-13 2:17 PM This is Denali...my big gray boy...my biggest problem for the past several years. He's been treated for EPM three times. I have retired him twice (he's only 13) and have had more crying, frustrated fits than you can imagine trying to figure out what is wrong with him and why I couldn't keep him full OR sound! He has turned back into the big muscley monster that he was when we bought him 6 years ago. I am beyond thrilled with how he's looking and know that once we get him fit again he will be stunning.
The muddy picture is from March 20, when he had just spent three days at OSU doing cardiac testing and I let him be a pig. The second picture was taken late last week.
Huge improvement! |
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 Balance Beam and more...
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Location: 31 lengths farms | My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon? |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM
My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon?
They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement |
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Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
Posts: 2869
Location: SE Missouri | Wow incredible! I've got one that has been off looking all winter. I've just made some changes but may look into this feed!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Okay I tried last night and this morning. Maybe its my internet but the dealer locator page won't come up for me. Closest dealer to ft. smith Arkansas for this stuff? Please pm me!
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-05-14 6:44 AM
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
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 Go Your Own Way
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Location: SE KS | Rach - they look great - I will take pictures of Dinero - He is shiny, fat and looks so good. Love Blue Bonnet! Glad i changed.
My other boys look good too. hair coat is shiny - I agree with you - no gut no horse.
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Balance Beam and more...
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Location: 31 lengths farms | Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM
run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM
My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon?
They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement
The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| run n rate - 2015-05-14 1:06 PM
Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM
run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM
My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon?
They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement
The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up.
Yeah I don't get anything to come up either |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light. |
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Expert
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| On all the hind gut stuff. I had a holistic vet/chiro guy tell me that only certain kinds of probiotics will work for a horse because they are not live cultures. He sold/pushed probi which must be refrigerated once opened and is super expensive $262.47 a gallon! I know some cutters/reiners that are just crazy about it. Also, it has a big following in FL where this vet resides.
I thought it was all bull. Once you put bacteria cultures into the stomach they should in theory grow just like they would on stomach pH simulated nutrient agar. I don't wanna an extremely stressed out horse's stomach pH would just kill all of the cultures you were feeding them.
I worked in the microbiology lab during undergrad and took samples of forco and probios in to be located at just out of crusty because she let us culture anything we wanted, even poop LOL It wasn't a super scientific study I was a freshman in college, anyways both grew out just fine. I wanted to test the effectiveness of these at different pH's but my senior seminar professional persuaded me to go more wildlife conservationist to my area so i'd have something to talk about if I wanted to interview for a conservationist job. Wish
Sometimes I wonder if regular plain yogurt and yeast culture that you buy in bulk for whole foods wouldn't do the job just as well. Long ago they used to tell you to feed your horse plain vanilla yogurt after stressful injuries or surgery.
I'd like to try this DSI supplement, but sometimes I wonder... |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
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Location: The Oklahoma plains. | lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 12:19 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light.
I googled, I guess not good enough? I knew RG has been deep in it so I wondered if she crossed this part in her research. Always the skeptic, I dont want to buy a tub of dead enzymes or whatever they are. And a good quality feed change like BB may be all it takes for the positive change, maybe nothing to do with the DSI? Or is it the DSI and not the BB?
All I found so far were a few stories in the horse which both stated no difference in lab tests of bacteria ect.
I have a horse that has confirmed hind gut ulcers and I am not sure which product to try and there are no gold standard gudielines as only one I saw haad a NASC (? approval) no FDA item yet. I dont want to waste my money.
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Girls, I'm definitely as skeptical as everyone else...I promise! We had the horses on BB Feed for 45 days or so before we added the Transform DSI and that's when we started seeing a difference. I will look deeper into the studies provided and see if I can share one that gives a little more insight.
Initially when Greg and I decided to switch to Bluebonnet Feeds we agreed to give it a 90 day trial. Use exactly what they recommended and only their feed and supplements to see how the horses responded. I liked knowing that we were using products that were formulated to be used together instead of guessing at what we were putting into them. Needless to say, we have been pleased with what we've seen so far. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 1:29 PM lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 12:19 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light.
All I found so far were a few stories in the horse which both stated no difference in lab tests of bacteria ect.
I have a horse that has confirmed hind gut ulcers and I am not sure which product to try and there are no gold standard gudielines as only one I saw haad a NASC (? approval) no FDA item yet. I dont want to waste my money.
I agree that a good feed change will help many horses. If you look at the ingredient list of BB feeds - they add quite alot of helpful things. For example the intensify textured feed lists the essential minerals and vitamins. Then in the box directly below that there is a list of giant latin words ... for those that don't know, these are all either bacteria, yeast cultures, or enzymes that all help with digestion. (ALL super useful). DSI goes over and above as a supplement that adds more of everything already in the feed - this is super helpful when re-starting a horses gut after it has been through something that killed off its' natural gut flora for whatever reason. Often you will kill off gut flora after antibiotics, during stress, or from bad forage among other things.
If you're curious, bring up Google Scholar (It is NOT the same as Google) copy and paste one of those bacteria or yeasts or enzyme cultures into the search bar and add EQUINE after it. Hit enter and read peer-reviewed journal studies (which are approved by IACUC and University review panels before the research can be started) in which people have determined HOW and WHY that particular item helps or hinders a horses' gut.
PM me if ya need help or pointers. |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:12 PM run n rate - 2015-05-14 1:06 PM Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon? They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up. Yeah I don't get anything to come up either
I just looked and a store called Grow Fresh Organics is a dealer in Ft. Smith. You might call them and see if they are currently carrying any and if they could order the Transform DSI for you.
http://www.growfreshorganics.com/product/bluebonnet-intensify-omega-force/ |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 2:28 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 1:29 PM lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 12:19 PM TurnLane - 2015-05-14 8:50 AM In all your research have you learned of a way or place to test these organisms/products for actual viability?
I remember the contraversy with the yeast based product prior to Probios (name escapes me) anyhow- they were very temperature sensitive and the chain of command was most often compromised and the bacteria was killed due to temp before the end user bought and used them. Not to mention the customer not storing them properly.
I have not been able to find any double blind studies yet that prove efficacy of hind gut utilization?
Are you looking for feed specific studies? Those will 99% of the time only be funded by the feed company and not double blind.
There are a plethora of independent peer - reviewed journal articles looking at hind gut fermentation in horses fed different probiotics and yeast cultures that prove the usefulness of said cultures - For example, one can increase plant cell wall digestion with the addition of S. cerevisiae (yeast). I suggest using the Google Scholar search engine to find journal articles ....
Also, interestingly enough, many of these bacteria and yeast cultures in probiotics and prebiotics are quite hardy and can survive temperature swings as well as UV light.
All I found so far were a few stories in the horse which both stated no difference in lab tests of bacteria ect.
I have a horse that has confirmed hind gut ulcers and I am not sure which product to try and there are no gold standard gudielines as only one I saw haad a NASC (? approval) no FDA item yet. I dont want to waste my money.
If you're curious, bring up Google Scholar (It is NOT the same as Google) copy and paste one of those bacteria or yeasts or enzyme cultures into the search bar and add EQUINE after it. Hit enter and read peer-reviewed journal studies (which are approved by IACUC and University review panels before the research can be started) in which people have determined HOW and WHY that particular item helps or hinders a horses' gut.
PM me if ya need help or pointers.
Okay so....We need to be new best friends |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Great tip! Thanks so much. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| No worries ya'll! Glad I could help and give some pointers for those that may not be as familiar with research. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Are you our Lindsy at Pryor by chance??
Anyhow, here is the first article I pulled up- pulling only from 2014 to current and it says evidence is lacking in results of probiotics. And it states that labels are not regulated and the ones they tested did not meet specs. Much like our horse feeds- these lack testing for label specs. But it does say they are not harmful. Just seems they are not proven helpful except in a few studies of loose stool.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.12451/full
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Also Lindsey, which one would you recommend buying a subscription to? There are so many sites and articles. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | rachellyn80 - 2015-05-14 2:31 PM astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:12 PM run n rate - 2015-05-14 1:06 PM Longneck - 2015-05-14 4:37 PM run n rate - 2015-05-13 6:25 PM My big mare would benefit greatly I think, any dealers in CA? Northern CA to be more specific, or So. Oregon? They have a dealer locator in their webpage, but I do know that they can ship the Transform supplement The dealer locator has you put in your Zip and then the furthest you can search is with in 300miles, nothing comes up. Yeah I don't get anything to come up either
http://www.growfreshorganics.com/product/bluebonnet-intensify-omega-force/
I've been in there a couple of times and all I've seen them carry is the Omega Force, but the guy that was running the register was extremely nice and would probably order for someone. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 3:10 PM Are you our Lindsy at Pryor by chance??
Anyhow, here is the first article I pulled up- pulling only from 2014 to current and it says evidence is lacking in results of probiotics. And it states that labels are not regulated and the ones they tested did not meet specs. Much like our horse feeds- these lack testing for label specs. But it does say they are not harmful. Just seems they are not proven helpful except in a few studies of loose stool. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.12451/full
So, I encourage you to go back and re-read that article. Ya pulled up a review (good) that pulled together information from MANY different articles and its' purpose is not to make a judgement call but to just present the most current data. If you find a statement interesting, check the end of the sentence or paragraph. There you'll find a number that referrs back to the actual article that was published. Click that and it brings you the reference and you'll follow the path of evidence that led to the initial statement in the review.
Now - labels and loose stools only applies to a very few limited articles. Check out this one from 2009 - just because it is a few years old doesn't negate good sound science. In this study, they specifically looked at how yeast (S. cervisiae) changed the gut flora of a horse. https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/jas/articles/87/9/2844
In general, they found that by feeding yeast, they could increase the number of natural gut flora colonies already present in the horses they studied. If you can increase the natural gut flora present in your hind gut that are already doing their thing digesting away, wouldn't this equate to more absorbtion in the hind gut as well? (the answer is yes) Better use of whatever feedstuff you choose to feed and better digestion equate in my book to better absorbtion and better use of the hind gut. I will give that I'd liked to have seen more than 4 horses used, but they did this study correctly by using cannulaes to take samples instead of looking at stool samples. And, for the record, horses won't pass natural gut flora in their stool, unless they're sick, soooooo if you're going to measure gut flora you must use a cannulae to do it correctly.
Also - don't buy a subscription - not worth it!! Keep using Google Scholar and look for the free information. MANY of the major journals (Journal of Animal Science, PLOS, and more) are all going to free access on the internet anyway. If you're desperate for an article and it isn't free, head to your nearest Ag/State University Library and access it there. All land grant universities will have subscriptions to 99% of the research you'll be looking for anyway, so go hit 'em up!
ETA - please ignore my horrid spelling - trying to correct it!!
Edited by lindseylou2290 2015-05-14 3:58 PM
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
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Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Are you a vet student or vet tech? I am enjoying this conversation. |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-14 4:15 PM Are you a vet student or vet tech? I am enjoying this conversation.
Neither - I am livestock virus/vector researcher by day.
My undergrad years were spent in Microbiology and Animal Nutrition before I received my MS in Vet Pathobiology - My Dad was a livestock nutritionist for Mana Pro and later Foster Farms (producing chickens) before he retired. He instilled a joy for all things science and taught me to read information wtih a critical, yet open and objective, mind.
Glad to help as much as I can - if I don't know something my job is to figure it out and learn soooooo that has rolled into my personal life, horses, livestock, dogs, future husband ... (j/k). |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:57 PM On all the hind gut stuff. I had a holistic vet/chiro guy tell me that only certain kinds of probiotics will work for a horse because they are not live cultures. He sold/pushed probi which must be refrigerated once opened and is super expensive $262.47 a gallon! I know some cutters/reiners that are just crazy about it. Also, it has a big following in FL where this vet resides. I thought it was all bull. Once you put bacteria cultures into the stomach they should in theory grow just like they would on stomach pH simulated nutrient agar. I don't wanna an extremely stressed out horse's stomach pH would just kill all of the cultures you were feeding them. I worked in the microbiology lab during undergrad and took samples of forco and probios in to be located at just out of crusty because she let us culture anything we wanted, even poop LOL It wasn't a super scientific study I was a freshman in college, anyways both grew out just fine. I wanted to test the effectiveness of these at different pH's but my senior seminar professional persuaded me to go more wildlife conservationist to my area so i'd have something to talk about if I wanted to interview for a conservationist job. Wish Sometimes I wonder if regular plain yogurt and yeast culture that you buy in bulk for whole foods wouldn't do the job just as well. Long ago they used to tell you to feed your horse plain vanilla yogurt after stressful injuries or surgery. I'd like to try this DSI supplement, but sometimes I wonder...
We routinely use plain old vanilla yogurt to restart lamb gut flora after they've been sick! It works really really well!
And, your post made me giggle ... last summer my student intern had some fungus on her horse that we brought in the lab. We cultured, stained, and ID'd it too! |
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Expert
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| lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 9:39 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:57 PM On all the hind gut stuff. I had a holistic vet/chiro guy tell me that only certain kinds of probiotics will work for a horse because they are not live cultures. He sold/pushed probi which must be refrigerated once opened and is super expensive $262.47 a gallon! I know some cutters/reiners that are just crazy about it. Also, it has a big following in FL where this vet resides. I thought it was all bull. Once you put bacteria cultures into the stomach they should in theory grow just like they would on stomach pH simulated nutrient agar. I don't wanna an extremely stressed out horse's stomach pH would just kill all of the cultures you were feeding them. I worked in the microbiology lab during undergrad and took samples of forco and probios in to be located at just out of crusty because she let us culture anything we wanted, even poop LOL It wasn't a super scientific study I was a freshman in college, anyways both grew out just fine. I wanted to test the effectiveness of these at different pH's but my senior seminar professional persuaded me to go more wildlife conservationist to my area so i'd have something to talk about if I wanted to interview for a conservationist job. Wish Sometimes I wonder if regular plain yogurt and yeast culture that you buy in bulk for whole foods wouldn't do the job just as well. Long ago they used to tell you to feed your horse plain vanilla yogurt after stressful injuries or surgery. I'd like to try this DSI supplement, but sometimes I wonder...
We routinely use plain old vanilla yogurt to restart lamb gut flora after they've been sick! It works really really well!
And, your post made me giggle ... last summer my student intern had some fungus on her horse that we brought in the lab. We cultured, stained, and ID'd it too!
GAH!!! You have my dream job!!!
Lord reading over my post my phone massacred what I was really saying but I think you deciphered it LOL Thank you for sharing all your info! I agree with an above poster good info on this thread. Also if your sneaky you can continue to use the pub med database even after graduating from college if your college doesn't take your email login for it away.
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-05-15 7:59 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| astreakinchic - 2015-05-15 7:39 AM
lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 9:39 PM
astreakinchic - 2015-05-14 12:57 PM On all the hind gut stuff. I had a holistic vet/chiro guy tell me that only certain kinds of probiotics will work for a horse because they are not live cultures. He sold/pushed probi which must be refrigerated once opened and is super expensive $262.47 a gallon! I know some cutters/reiners that are just crazy about it. Also, it has a big following in FL where this vet resides. I thought it was all bull. Once you put bacteria cultures into the stomach they should in theory grow just like they would on stomach pH simulated nutrient agar. I don't wanna an extremely stressed out horse's stomach pH would just kill all of the cultures you were feeding them. I worked in the microbiology lab during undergrad and took samples of forco and probios in to be located at just out of crusty because she let us culture anything we wanted, even poop LOL It wasn't a super scientific study I was a freshman in college, anyways both grew out just fine. I wanted to test the effectiveness of these at different pH's but my senior seminar professional persuaded me to go more wildlife conservationist to my area so i'd have something to talk about if I wanted to interview for a conservationist job. Wish Sometimes I wonder if regular plain yogurt and yeast culture that you buy in bulk for whole foods wouldn't do the job just as well. Long ago they used to tell you to feed your horse plain vanilla yogurt after stressful injuries or surgery. I'd like to try this DSI supplement, but sometimes I wonder...
We routinely use plain old vanilla yogurt to restart lamb gut flora after they've been sick! It works really really well!
And, your post made me giggle ... last summer my student intern had some fungus on her horse that we brought in the lab. We cultured, stained, and ID'd it too!
GAH!!! You have my dream job!!!
Lord reading over my post my phone massacred what I was really saying but I think you deciphered it LOL Thank you for sharing all your info! I agree with an above poster good info on this thread. Also if your sneaky you can continue to use the pub med database even after graduating from college if your college doesn't take your email login for it away.
YES YOU CAN!!!
I used mine for 4 years before they finally cut me off. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Have you heard of Dr Flocks? I guess he is a sought after nutrition physiology type guy for Tyson ect?
Anyhow, he was telling me he preferred paste probiotic items over the dry stating that they freeze dry and hope for 25% viable bugs and it is actually like 5% yield. Kind of like your yogurt experience above.
He was speaking in simple terms so I could keep up so dont bash me for trying to repeat-lol. But he also said I only needed to use them short term not long term.
I am just looking for an item like RG to treat a burnt up hind gut. There are too many choices.
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Blessed
Location: Here | lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-14 8:37 PM
TurnLane - 2015-05-14 4:15 PM Are you a vet student or vet tech? I am enjoying this conversation.
My undergrad years were spent in Microbiology and Animal Nutrition before I received my MS in Vet Pathobiology - My Dad was a livestock nutritionist for Mana Pro and later Foster Farms (producing chickens) before he retired. He instilled a joy for all things science and taught me to read information wtih a critical, yet open and objective, mind.
Glad to help as much as I can - if I don't know something my job is to figure it out and learn soooooo that has rolled into my personal life, horses, livestock, dogs, future husband ... (j/k).
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | rachellyn80 - 2015-05-13 1:58 PM The back story on these horses is a long and ongoing issue with the mill, so we will skip that part and just show you what we've been able to accomplish this far. My horses have not looked right for a couple of years now...So the excuse that this is the normal April/May spring bloom from green grass is not applicable in any way. The vets that have been caring for them have told me that they looked fine and I couldn't expect them to gain much for what they've been through. I couldn't accept that as an answer so I continued my research and contacted Bluebonnet to see what they recommended as they seemed like the safest feed that would be available to me. I was told to put them on Bluebonnet Intensify Omega Force. They are getting 6# a day and 4oz a day of Bluebonnet Transform DSI as well as Bluebonnet Element Minerals free choice and grass hay and alfalfa. The results have been amazing.
This is Jones. Jones was my sickest horse. He's a five year old previously easy keeper and the top picture is when he was sick. The bottom picture is as he was recovering. I wanted to add one more picture just so that you can see what Jones looked like before he got sick....he's still not there and it doesn't matter because we won't be able to use him, but it makes me sick to see what this has done to him.
Here's an updated picture of Jones. This was taken last Friday. We are still having to bandage his back legs until they heal completely, but his body condition is amazing.
 (Jones Before & After.jpg)
 (Jones May 15.jpg)
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Jones Before & After.jpg (95KB - 184 downloads)
Jones May 15.jpg (78KB - 196 downloads)
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Whack and Roll
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Location: NE Texas | Wow, that's pretty incredible! He looks fantastic, that is for sure! I too have been so thrilled with the Bluebonnet feed and the improvements in my horses that are just on the feed alone. Thank you for sharing your story with us! |
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | This is a picture of one of that horse's front feet. The fever rings are so deep that you can see them. All of my horses have them since the feed change.
 (Jones Hoof May 15.jpg)
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Jones Hoof May 15.jpg (59KB - 188 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| TurnLane - 2015-05-15 4:00 PM Have you heard of Dr Flocks? I guess he is a sought after nutrition physiology type guy for Tyson ect?
Anyhow, he was telling me he preferred paste probiotic items over the dry stating that they freeze dry and hope for 25% viable bugs and it is actually like 5% yield. Kind of like your yogurt experience above.
He was speaking in simple terms so I could keep up so dont bash me for trying to repeat-lol. But he also said I only needed to use them short term not long term.
I am just looking for an item like RG to treat a burnt up hind gut. There are too many choices.
Hmmm I don't know him.
I think one of things to keep in mind is what type of gut you're trying to feed or restart ....ie - what part are you repopulating and are you populating it with similar cultures to what was there originally. Some of these cultures are ubiquitous in livestock, some are most definately not.
With lambs we are targeting the Rumen usually as this is where most of the digestion happens in ruminant animals - absobtion happens further on in the gut (the intestines).
Horses are way different - they ferment and absorb in their intestines at the same time. Their stomachs are giant holding tubs with minimal digestion when compared to the rest of their system. If we are feeding live cultures, one difficulty in horses is getting that flora to survive the stomach and actually make it to the hind gut where it will be most useful. This also takes TIME and is not an overnight occurance. Thus, pelleted cultures were born in the industry.
There are some seriously GREAT supplements out there that are designed to feed through and accomplish just that!
ETA - He is correct in that once you repopulate the gut (and don't kill it again) you will not need to use them long term
Edited by lindseylou2290 2015-05-21 2:55 PM
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Blessed
Location: Here | rachellyn80 - 2015-05-21 12:31 PM This is a picture of one of that horse's front feet. The fever rings are so deep that you can see them. All of my horses have them since the feed change.
This is just  |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| SG. - 2015-05-21 2:57 PM rachellyn80 - 2015-05-21 12:31 PM This is a picture of one of that horse's front feet. The fever rings are so deep that you can see them. All of my horses have them since the feed change. This is just
It makes me cringe thinking about it - youch!! |
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Blessed
Location: Here | lindseylou2290 - 2015-05-21 2:54 PM
Hmmm I don't know him.
I think one of things to keep in mind is what type of gut you're trying to feed or restart ....ie - what part are you repopulating and are you populating it with similar cultures to what was there originally. Some of these cultures are ubiquitous in livestock, some are most definately not.
With lambs we are targeting the Rumen usually as this is where most of the digestion happens in ruminant animals - absobtion happens further on in the gut (the intestines).
Horses are way different - they ferment and absorb in their intestines at the same time. Their stomachs are giant holding tubs with minimal digestion when compared to the rest of their system. If we are feeding live cultures, one difficulty in horses is getting that flora to survive the stomach and actually make it to the hind gut where it will be most useful. This also takes TIME and is not an overnight occurance. Thus, pelleted cultures were born in the industry.
There are some seriously GREAT supplements out there that are designed to feed through and accomplish just that!
ETA - He is correct in that once you repopulate the gut (and don't kill it again) you will not need to use them long term
Great info! Thank you for sharing this |
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