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Posts: 287
 
| So we were at a 4h show the other day and during the gaming my daughter was asked to stop her horse in the arena, acknowledge the judge and then begin her pattern. her horse is a finished seasoned jr rodeo horse that she was taking there to just sharpen up his pattern at speed.
I have a few issues with this. I think it is a really good way to start alley issues in finished horses. IMO asking them to stop and wait for the judge to acknowledge them is more unsafe than allowing them to progress in with contolled forward motion.
When I called our head 4h honcho here to ask about getting the rule changed, she didn't seem to agree with me. I asked her how many of the people on these committees actually rode, competed and trained barrel horse to actually have knowledge and experience in this area. So anyways, I have to submit an email stating why i feel this way. I am curious what everyone's thought are on here?
I feel asking a finished horse to stop and wait in the "hot zone" for a judge to acknowledge the rider can and will cause gate issues and other behavioral issues. I think controlled forward motion is safer. What are everyone's thoughts? |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I agree with you and had the same thing happen to my daughter. It did seem to depend on which county you vompeteing on. Our county had a lot of jr rodeo kids and the walk in rule was not really applied, but on the next county it was enforced rather aggressively. We just didn't go back. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | Our county makes the kids dismount before leaving the ring. Thankfully most of the kids are riding their morning pleasure horses and the ones on actual barrel horses are older teens that can handle the situation. But yet another silly 4H rule.
I can see waiting for a signal from the judge before proceeding but you at least need to be able to keep moving in a lope or trot circle until they are ready not stop and stand.
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Well on one hand, yes, I did tell her we didn't have to go back or next time she could take her green mare where it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But then again, even with a green horse you don't want them to lose forward motion cause that will become a bad habit and lead to evasiveness. The head lady just didn't seem to understand THAT is a safety issue!
I'm a 4h leader in our county and not afraid to rock the boat to get things changed. I appreciate the opinions from you cause it will help me word my email and presentation |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
 
Location: ND | While I don't agree with the rule I don't think it's a big deal either. I grew up running a lot of places that ran with a closed gate, you could not start your run until the gate was latched. I had a dang good barrel horse & she was HOT but I could also keep her perfectly under control as long as I needed to. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| ajs2002 - 2015-06-01 12:10 PM
Our county makes the kids dismount before leaving the ring. Thankfully most of the kids are riding their morning pleasure horses and the ones on actual barrel horses are older teens that can handle the situation. But yet another silly 4H rule.
I can see waiting for a signal from the judge before proceeding but you at least need to be able to keep moving in a lope or trot circle until they are ready not stop and stand.
Exactly. Or even wait for acknowledgement from the judge before entering the gate, entering in controlled forward motion and starting pattern. Acknowledgement before leaving arena. Then horse doesn't learn bad habits and they eneter and exit in a safe fashion. No one around here seems to get that ??
Edited by wickedstepmother 2015-06-01 2:16 PM
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | I don't really agree that they need to acknowledge a judge in a speed event. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
| I don't know a lot about 4H, but I will just play devils advocate and say, I get that it's probably a safety issue. If you don't want to have to follow that rule, there are plenty of associations that don't require it, and you are free to go run there.
I have shown at a couple different types of associations. The barrel centered shows (NBHA, rodeo, etc) of course don't require this stuff. I also spent a great deal of time showing at an open show association where they had every event, not just speed events. This also meant there were plenty of people walking around, right by the gate. For safety reasons, their rule is, you cannot run in the arena from farther than 20 feet from the gate, and you must stop inside the arena with a closed gate.
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | On another note I compete in mounted shooting, if you start your course before the judge has given you the ok to go you receive a 60 second run......so i guess that's not to different than the 4-H rule! Our shooting horses walk into the arena quietly and have absolutely no issue keeping calm until the judge signals, sometimes even waiting for a small balloon to be relplaced before starting a run. I have no tollerence for a horse that can't walk into an arena & keep his head for a few seconds. |
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11493
Location: 31 lengths farms | I grew up having to do this so for me its not a big deal. You can always choose not to go to those with rules that dont' fit your horse. |
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 A Gopher's Worst Nightmare
Posts: 5094
Location: Southern Oregon | We have always had to acknowledge the judge before starting our pattern here in Oregon. Although we never had to be at a complete stop, just wait for the nod from the judge. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
| Is this a new rule?
If it is not a new rule than it shouldn't have been a shocker that it would be enforced at some point.
If it were my daughter and horse, I would not go back. I have a mare that will walk into the arena like it's no big deal but as soon as she is in you would be hard pressed to get her to stop and stand still.
If your daughter wants to continue to go, I would take the younger mare. There is nothing wrong with making a horse stop and wait before running to the first barrel. I can also understand why it would create and issue for a seasoned horse who knows it's job. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| cowgirl_3207 - 2015-06-01 1:31 PM
We have always had to acknowledge the judge before starting our pattern here in Oregon. Although we never had to be at a complete stop, just wait for the nod from the judge.
We in Washington, on the border of Oregon actually. This particular judge I believe is from Oregon made the kids stop, then took her sweet time about it.
And yes we could choose to not go back, and honestly probably won't at this place for many reasons. But my issuue is the actual rule. I think it needs to be changed. They change rules in the horse dept every year here, there is no reason I shouldn't petition to have it changed if I don't agree with it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1096
| Here you are made to WALK through the gate completely. It's kind of hard for my finished horses because they are bopping around. Needless to say we are just not going to do it. They DQ you for those things. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Murphy - 2015-06-01 2:15 PM
I don't really agree that they need to acknowledge a judge in a speed event.
I agree completely. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | I don't see a problem with it.
I attend many gaming shows that have a "no running start" rule. One show even requires you to STOP your horse after the gate has closed (after you have entered) before you can start your run. Another show says your horse needs to be walking as you come through the gate, and cannot start your run until the gate is closed.
I have trained my horses as such. I can send them flying from the back 40 at a rodeo, or I can walk them into the arena like a western pleasure horse before we start. I am very particular about my body language and my verbal cues. They know exactly what I want them to do.
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 Saint Stacey
| 4H is all about safety and proper horsemanship. It's geared more towards the showing end than the timed event end. We have the same rule here in CO about walking through a gate. If you have a rodeo horse, maybe 4H speed events aren't the venue for you. They won't change the rule for a handful of barrel horses when the masses can walk through a gate. Sorry but that is simply the fact. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| My county will disqualify you if you do not remain behind the timer line until the gate is closed and latched. I walk my barrel horse in and turn her straight back into the gate, and we wait until that gate touches her nose, I see it's latched, then we rollback and haul ass. That is how I keep from getting disqualified, and it has yet to make my horse get gate issues, and we have been doing this for 7 years. It's a safety issue. 4H has it's own realm of rules.
We also can't use any bit or equipment deemed un-necessary or overly harsh by show committee and/or judge....that's a really controversial rule even in the pleasure pen. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Well, I do feel I have a valid basis for discussing it and not just for my daughter cause she could really care less if she runs there again lol. BUT I think it's just as much of a safety pulling those horses up in the hot zone. And I've **** sure fixed my fair share of gate sour horses. I am really good at it actually. But it's because I don't stop their forward motion. It is interesting to hear veryones opinion though and why they feel that way.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| Even at barrel races, I make my mare walk up the alley and hesitate before running. It makes her think about barrels and not about just running. That is how my horse runs best, and I've never gotten a horse alley sour from doing that. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2276
Location: ohio-in my own little world with pretty ponies :) | I think that is a pretty unsafe rule when that is not something they are taught. In 4H here in Ohio we have to stop forward motion once we enter the arena or we get disqualified. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| I also wanna be clear, by forward motion, I don't mean hell bent for leather. I mean walking, or trotting, controlled lope. I just feel it's safest for horse and rider to be dialed and keyed in on their job, not waiting for a judge. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I believe the reason this rule was put into place is more for the gaming events which run horses side by side.
The rules where I live in Alberta are you must have control of your horse when entering an arena, and the gate must be closed before the judge can blow the whistle.
Control of your horse is open for interpretation and is a judges discretion.
With the gaming events they cannot change one rule for barrel then go back to the old rule for the two horses running events, as this can confuse a horse.
Not all 4h people are at the same level of riding abilities, so I have to agree with the rule however it is written in your area, as children safety is the most important.
In the years I was in 4h in the gaming events even with the safety rules, at our regional show, there was always a few wrecks that required ambulances, I cannot even fathom how many were prevented with the starting rules |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen |
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 Dancing in my Mind
Posts: 3062
Location: Eastern OH but my heart is in WV | We just ran into this issue on Saturday with my daughter's barrel horse also at a youth rodeo. We are going to have to make some serious decisions about if we are going to run him in the series now because it really upset him being held back at the gate and he was not going to stop or circle before running either. I COMPLTETLY understand not being allowed to run the gate from far out but once they are at the gate I don't understand why they have to stop forward motion. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 10:14 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
I agree with you. The analogy I thought of was it's the equivalent of popping the gate on a race horse and expecting them to stand there until the judge decides they should run. If your horse is trained to run into the arena, it can be very stress inducing and confusing to ask them to stop when they have always been trained to go at that point. The rule should say something about a controlled, forward motion entry into the arena. The rule should probably be worded so timed event horses are not required to cease forward motion. They're effectively turning timed events into judged events. Reading this, it makes me wonder if this judge is one of those judged event people who just hate timed event people. It's like she is sending a message that, if your timed event horse can't act like a pleasure horse, you're not welcome at "her show". 4H is supposed to be for everyone. They are putting lots of kids, who only want to do timed events, into a situation where they would now have to purchase a separate horse just to do 4H. Timed events can be just as safe when horses are allowed to continue forward motion. The rule, as it is written, certainly opens the door for that type of discrimination against kids who choose to only do timed events. It's pretty common around horse shows, for big money judged event people to look down on kids who only want to do timed events. It sounds like that might be the case. After all, if you can bring a top notch aqha western pleasure horse there and enjoy the same rules as you work under at other shows, why shouldn't your kid be able to bring a winning nbha horse there and be subject to the same rules you run under anywhere else without feeling like the judge looks down on them. Good luck getting the rule changed. |
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Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:14 PM cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control. While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
Rope horses do this all the time & it does not ruin them, it's good for them. A properly trained rope horse knows how to "score". You set him up in the box just like you are going to make a run, nod for your steer, gate pops, steer leaves, horse stands quietly in the box. So if a rope horse can stand & watch his steer leave why can't a barrel horse stop for a second or two? There is absolutely no way this will ruin your horse if the horse is well trained & listens to his rider. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | I wouldn't run with those rules. I don't agree with asking a horse to pause in the alley, I see it creating bad habits and hesitation to move forward. Coming from the standpoint of having shown jumpers and barrel horses, they are NOT the same. JMO (and I've roped a lot), it's very different from scoring a horse in the box. It would be a dealbreaker for me. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | AND then don't send your kid to College! When I was college rodeoing, they had a "maintain forward motion" rule even in side gate pens. You were dinked or disqualified if you stopped or turned back away from the fence. It takes all kinds to make us into who we are! I hated that I couldn't turn my horse back, not so bad in middle gate arena's but those side arenas were tricky especially when I was running a lefty and the gate was on the right side of the arena. You just need to figure out what you're willing to put up with.... |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Nita - 2015-06-02 12:11 AM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 10:14 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
I agree with you. The analogy I thought of was it's the equivalent of popping the gate on a race horse and expecting them to stand there until the judge decides they should run. If your horse is trained to run into the arena, it can be very stress inducing and confusing to ask them to stop when they have always been trained to go at that point. The rule should say something about a controlled, forward motion entry into the arena. The rule should probably be worded so timed event horses are not required to cease forward motion. They're effectively turning timed events into judged events. Reading this, it makes me wonder if this judge is one of those judged event people who just hate timed event people. It's like she is sending a message that, if your timed event horse can't act like a pleasure horse, you're not welcome at "her show". 4H is supposed to be for everyone. They are putting lots of kids, who only want to do timed events, into a situation where they would now have to purchase a separate horse just to do 4H. Timed events can be just as safe when horses are allowed to continue forward motion. The rule, as it is written, certainly opens the door for that type of discrimination against kids who choose to only do timed events. It's pretty common around horse shows, for big money judged event people to look down on kids who only want to do timed events. It sounds like that might be the case. After all, if you can bring a top notch aqha western pleasure horse there and enjoy the same rules as you work under at other shows, why shouldn't your kid be able to bring a winning nbha horse there and be subject to the same rules you run under anywhere else without feeling like the judge looks down on them. Good luck getting the rule changed.
THANK YOU THANK YOU Nita!! That is word for word exactly how I feel! Thank you for putting it a little better into words than I could cause I couldn't agree with you more! |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| We have similar rules like this in an open show circuit up here. The rule is "controlled" and they must break stride once they get in the arena.
As someone else mentioned, I think the rule is to cover their own a$$... not everyone can handle loping into the arena and it could create some danger in the warm-up and to spectators. From my understanding, 4H is a much more inexperienced group. Here anyway, many people lease horses and have never really ridden a lot before. This is all new so they have to account for these types of people and create an overall safe environment.
I think waiting for the judge to acknowledge is silly and overkill. That makes me believe, they want to make sure the judge is paying attention. I dont necessarily find it dangerous and dont think it would "ruin" a horse but I think the rule could be worded differently. |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | LMS - 2015-06-02 8:59 AM AND then don't send your kid to College! When I was college rodeoing, they had a "maintain forward motion" rule even in side gate pens. You were dinked or disqualified if you stopped or turned back away from the fence. It takes all kinds to make us into who we are! I hated that I couldn't turn my horse back, not so bad in middle gate arena's but those side arenas were tricky especially when I was running a lefty and the gate was on the right side of the arena. You just need to figure out what you're willing to put up with....
Exactly....it's pretty common for the bigger races to have rules about no stopping of forward motion, at the BBR it even applied to the alley. Your horse can't stop, circle or turn. Must maintain forward motion at all times. |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | LMS - 2015-06-02 8:59 AM AND then don't send your kid to College! When I was college rodeoing, they had a "maintain forward motion" rule even in side gate pens. You were dinked or disqualified if you stopped or turned back away from the fence. It takes all kinds to make us into who we are! I hated that I couldn't turn my horse back, not so bad in middle gate arena's but those side arenas were tricky especially when I was running a lefty and the gate was on the right side of the arena. You just need to figure out what you're willing to put up with....
I rodeoed in the Ozark region and we were allowed to come in and set up if it was a side gate. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: /ARKANSAS | A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary.  ![]() |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: /ARKANSAS | A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary. ![]() |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 10:14 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-06-01 7:51 PM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-01 9:41 PM
Also, I don't think it should be differeny for barrels then go back to acknowledging the judge for others. I think across the board, they should not be focusing on that judge but on their pattern. Whichever pattern they may be on. I do agree with not starting a run until the gate is closed. But that doesnt require fighting a horse to stand still to make that happen
The issue is what is controlled, if you can't stop your horse, you technically have no control.
While I agree with this wholeheartedly, and using my daughters as an example, can she....absolutly. Should she, I don't believe so. IMO, it's no different than asking a show jumper to stop and wait for the ok when they approach a jump. What eventually start happening, it'd start refusing jumps. You have now taught your horse a dangerous, undesirable habit. That's the best analogy I could think of, but you get the point.
I have to disagree that stopping after entering an arena causes a behaviour issue.
If your horse is broke, you should be able to do this.
It isn't the same as show jumping, they enter the arena, sometimes loping, stop salute the judge then go.
Barrel racing, your kid should not be sending the horse in at full speed, then ripping their face off to get them to stop.
A kid should enter their horse at a controlled speed, whether it be a walk, jog, prance, then be able to stop it.
It is all on how the horse is trained, and how much effort you want to put into training, the horse I used in 4h years ago was a true 1d horse I could enter an arena and stop, or I could send him in an alley running.
It all comes down to the rider, and the horses training.
As others have said 4h was developed to increase a child's skills, in horse 4h it is to increase horsemanship and to develop safe riding skills.
It wasn't one person who determined what safe riding skills, it was a committee with guidance from lawyers, insurance agencies, etc. |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | it's a rule.... maybe it doesn't work for you, but you should have known that from the get-go when you signed the entry form that says "I have read and understand all of the rules and terms."
build your own club and make all the ridiculous rules you want. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Here's the deal, I don't like the rule and have my reasons why. I am a 4h leader and feel the appropriate thing to do is try and change it. I am going to keep my kids in 4H cause it has lots of benefits. But why do people think that we HAVE to accept rules the way they are in these types of deals? They have the form for me to fill out for a reason. Clearly I'm not the first person to appeal a 4h rule. A person has 2 options, don't participate which is fine, or make a change. I like rocking the boat and making a change. And like Nita said, these rules were made by show people and I think a barrel racer needs to give their input |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | fastwrapn3 - 2015-06-02 9:15 AM A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary.
Scoring a barrel horse is not the same as walking in, stopping, and then blasting off for a competition run. I score mine because I don't want them thinking that every time they go down the alley, or approach the pattern they need to be revved up or running Mach 9. Scoring can be standing in the alley, walking in and back out, walking to the first barrel and stopping until relaxed, walking to the first barrel and getting off...lots of different ways to go about it and relaxation is the goal. I give a specific signal when we're about to run and I expect my horse to know the difference. |
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 Living within my means
Posts: 5128
Location: Randolph, Utah | Our 4H doesn't require you to acknowledge the judge but you can't start until the gate is closed. Safety they say (insert eye roll) it makes it tough on kids riding finished horses. More than once the gate lady got yelled at for not closing the gate quick on girls with finished powerful horses.
I'm anti 4H so maybe that effects my opinion but i hated the rule 20 years ago when I was in 4H and I still hate it! |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Three 4 Luck - 2015-06-02 9:36 AM fastwrapn3 - 2015-06-02 9:15 AM A lot of my friends stand their horses in the alleyway they call it scoring? I think it is cruel and unnecessary. Scoring a barrel horse is not the same as walking in, stopping, and then blasting off for a competition run. I score mine because I don't want them thinking that every time they go down the alley, or approach the pattern they need to be revved up or running Mach 9. Scoring can be standing in the alley, walking in and back out, walking to the first barrel and stopping until relaxed, walking to the first barrel and getting off...lots of different ways to go about it and relaxation is the goal. I give a specific signal when we're about to run and I expect my horse to know the difference.
I always thought walking and standing in the alley or scoring, was a good thing, teaching they don't always have to be on the muscle and it can be a relaxing place too. I can walk calmly in on the drags but they feel my energy and nerves when it is time to run- they know the difference. We always scored our roping horses in the box too. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| I want to clarify, not sure if I have clearly or not, or that it makes a difference ...I am not referring to quiet in and out of the gate or alley. What this judge (and one other here) makes the kids do is come in the gate, go to the starting point and wait. I do think horses should be scored in and out or the alley or gate. However I do not feel it's ok or safe to expect a barrel horses to sit at the starting line, in that "hot zone" waiting for a judge to give them the go signal.
I think acknowledging them before they enter the arena is appropriate. Then once the enter the arena the rider and horse can dial in on their job. And I've read pro after pro say once they enter the arena, they want their horse focused in on their job.
Edited by wickedstepmother 2015-06-02 10:10 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen. |
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | Also you have every right in any association to submit a rule change. Sometimes they might even be considered. I would rather that happen then people leave or just sit and bad mouth the group. As long as if the board, or membership, (or whomever does the votes) votes down your rule change idea, you don't go off the deep end of the earth with how it is all rigged and wrong and everyone but you is stupid. :)
Had to edit cuz I spelled stupid wrong. hahahaha
Edited by ajs2002 2015-06-02 10:23 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| ajs2002 - 2015-06-02 8:19 AM
Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen.
I will keep that in mind when I write up my request. I think there is some good points to your suggestion :) |
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 Popped
Posts: 20421
Location: LuluLand~along I64 Indiana | just a friendly reminder that 4-h is not a catch all for every rule. there is alot of variation from region, to region, state to state and even county to county. Please dont hate 4-h because of a rule that does not apply to every program. for those who have rules in your area that do not work please try to educated and change what doesnt work.  |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Oh no, I won't go off the deep end lol. I do think it's a very high school mentality from a lot of the leaders in MY county but that's due to their personality flaws not the 4h program as a whole. People around here act like our county fair is the NFR/CONGRESS all rolled in to one lol |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| ajs2002 - 2015-06-02 10:19 AM
Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen.
I have seen horses enter arenas at a jog crashing into people, and fences, you are saying this is safe? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 10:09 AM
I want to clarify, not sure if I have clearly or not, or that it makes a difference ...I am not referring to quiet in and out of the gate or alley. What this judge (and one other here) makes the kids do is come in the gate, go to the starting point and wait. I do think horses should be scored in and out or the alley or gate. However I do not feel it's ok or safe to expect a barrel horses to sit at the starting line, in that "hot zone" waiting for a judge to give them the go signal.
I think acknowledging them before they enter the arena is appropriate. Then once the enter the arena the rider and horse can dial in on their job. And I've read pro after pro say once they enter the arena, they want their horse focused in on their job.
Have you read the 4h rule in your region, or are you going by what the judge required?
If you haven't looked at the specific wording of the rule, I suggest doing this |
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | cheryl makofka - 2015-06-02 11:38 AM ajs2002 - 2015-06-02 10:19 AM Since it is 4H and safety in and out of the pen is a huge concern. I think if it was me I would go for a rewrite of the rule. To say something to the effect of....
The exhibitor must enter the arena at a walk or jog. Exhibitor may not start on pattern until the judge has blown a whistle signaling that the pattern is set and gate is shut. After such time the Exhibitor has 30 seconds to start the pattern.
This gives the exhibitor the opportunity to keep the horse moving in a circle or off to the side or where ever until the ring is set and safe. And doesn't force them to take off the minute the whistle is blown either. They can get themselves set up.
I think that would be a happy compromise for a 4H show where you have lots of inexperienced horse people both in and out of the pen. I have seen horses enter arenas at a jog crashing into people, and fences, you are saying this is safe?
I am saying it is safer then a horse cantering or running into the pen. I had a mare that could take out a line of other horses by the ingate going side ways at a walk. being around horses in general is not safe. People have to have some common sense especially if they are by the ingate or make up pen. You can get crippled and killed by a horse that is not in forward motion at all. There is a middle ground. No? |
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7616
Location: Dubach, LA | I would not use the whistle. It wouldn't take long for most horses to take the whistle as the go sign. Like students being conditioned to jump up when the bell sounds. I worked at a school with no bells once. It was great. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| cheryl makofka - 2015-06-02 8:41 AM
wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 10:09 AM
I want to clarify, not sure if I have clearly or not, or that it makes a difference ...I am not referring to quiet in and out of the gate or alley. What this judge (and one other here) makes the kids do is come in the gate, go to the starting point and wait. I do think horses should be scored in and out or the alley or gate. However I do not feel it's ok or safe to expect a barrel horses to sit at the starting line, in that "hot zone" waiting for a judge to give them the go signal.
I think acknowledging them before they enter the arena is appropriate. Then once the enter the arena the rider and horse can dial in on their job. And I've read pro after pro say once they enter the arena, they want their horse focused in on their job.
Have you read the 4h rule in your region, or are you going by what the judge required?
If you haven't looked at the specific wording of the rule, I suggest doing this
Of course I read the actual wording of the rule. I was on the committee to create and revise policies and procedures at our hospital once upon a time, so I am not unfamiliar with how to go about this. But thanks for dumbing it down for me. |
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Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | CanCan - 2015-06-02 11:43 AM I would not use the whistle. It wouldn't take long for most horses to take the whistle as the go sign. Like students being conditioned to jump up when the bell sounds. I worked at a school with no bells once. It was great.
Yes they will if you go immediately after the whistle hence the 30 seconds to start on course after. The whistle is a way for you to stay focused on your horse and your pattern and wait for an all clear from the judge, with out having to actually be watching the judge which a previous poster had complained about. Face it there is no way to run the speed classes at a 4H event that is going to make everyone happy. So you look for what might work for the bulk of the exhibitors. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 623
Location: /ARKANSAS | I never have scored any of my horses, I want mine to know when they start in the alley way I want a walk, trot then run. I don't know why I don't like it almost everyone does it and I guess to each his own. |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I didn't read all the replies but that was our rule in 4H too. You didn't have to be at a standstill though and you didn't have to acknowledge with your hand or even be facing the judge, you just had to nod at them. They were always really quick about it here, plus my county arena and our state arena in Puyallup were side gates, so you had to walk your horse in anyway. I always just made eye contact with the judge as soon as I was entering the arena and usually the second the gate was shut it was okay for me to go because even though my horse back then got a little hot (just prancy) he was clearly not out of control.
I don't agree with it, I think it's dumb, speaking as a normal person with normal horses, but most everyone that I grew up gaming with had psycho horses and all they ever did was blow their horses through the pattern (during practice) and there were a couple that were so out of control that they weren't allowed to compete. <-- that is the "idea" behind the rule, they're trying to eliminate the kids that can't control their horses and could get hurt. I think it's flawed, but thats their logic. But like I said, here in my area we had no choice but to walk in the arena anyway because of the side gate. I never saw a judge make someone wait, and I only saw a hand full of kids that were excused from the classes because their horses were deemed dangerous, or the kids kept falling off and clearly couldn't ride the horse.
The one rule that I hated, and they changed it here, was we used to have to stop within a box. That DID sour my horse, he got to where he was shutting down before the line because he was trying to prepare himself to stop inside a box.
Edited by livexlovexrodeo 2015-06-02 1:04 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | You could state in your rule change suggestion, that under control would include the horse responding to the rider's cues. That way, if the rider is trying to get the horse to walk straight and it's running over people walking sideways, that could clearly be considered out of control.
I expect mine to be able to stop in the alleyway. More than once, I've started down the alley and was told to hold up for a second for whatever reason. No big deal. It happens. I just agree with you that it should not be required of timed event horses to do this. |
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| livexlovexrodeo - 2015-06-02 11:01 AM
I didn't read all the replies but that was our rule in 4H too. You didn't have to be at a standstill though and you didn't have to acknowledge with your hand or even be facing the judge, you just had to nod at them. They were always really quick about it here, plus my county arena and our state arena in Puyallup were side gates, so you had to walk your horse in anyway. I always just made eye contact with the judge as soon as I was entering the arena and usually the second the gate was shut it was okay for me to go because even though my horse back then got a little hot (just prancy) he was clearly not out of control.
I don't agree with it, I think it's dumb, speaking as a normal person with normal horses, but most everyone that I grew up gaming with had psycho horses and all they ever did was blow their horses through the pattern (during practice) and there were a couple that were so out of control that they weren't allowed to compete. <-- that is the "idea" behind the rule, they're trying to eliminate the kids that can't control their horses and could get hurt. I think it's flawed, but thats their logic. But like I said, here in my area we had no choice but to walk in the arena anyway because of the side gate. I never saw a judge make someone wait, and I only saw a hand full of kids that were excused from the classes because their horses were deemed dangerous, or the kids kept falling off and clearly couldn't ride the horse.
The one rule that I hated, and they changed it here, was we used to have to stop within a box. That DID sour my horse, he got to where he was shutting down before the line because he was trying to prepare himself to stop inside a box.
I am also in Washington and am glad there is no stopping in a box anymore either. Glad you also feel it's a flawed rule, being from washington as well. The intent behind it I get, I just think there are better ways to address it |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I honestly was just going to let this thread just roll off, but I just can't ignore some of these comments.
I have a finished barrel horse. I have rode her since day one of her training. I 'score' her every time we go to an arena. No matter what we are doing. I can be pushing her into that first barrel, but if I tell her to stop, she is sitting on her ass and stopping. That is CONTROL. Before any rider ever gets near a barrel race on any horse, they should be able to stop that horse on a dime. You NEVER know what may happen that you need to immediately stop and get that horse under control.
If you can't walk your horse in the arena and stop and the horse stand relaxed on a loose rein, you have already ruined your horse. That is how I see it.
ETA: I have not read all responses, just a few hit me wrong. This is not positioned at anyone in particular.
Edited by FlyingHigh1454 2015-06-02 4:48 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 287
| Ok but here's question....how many people do you actually see do this successfully. How many pro level people can do this or think it's a good idea for a horse to go in the gate or alley, get in the arena and wait? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 5:56 PM
Ok but here's question....how many people do you actually see do this successfully. How many pro level people can do this or think it's a good idea for a horse to go in the gate or alley, get in the arena and wait?
If more people did, there would be a lot less accidents. I have seen a horse run full speed into a gate that had accidentally swung open while the guy was hauling back trying to stop him. Could've ended the horse's career or life really quick. Accidents happen quick, and breaks are important to have. Luckily all the horse got was some cuts and some sore spots, and the rider was no worse for wear too (The gate wasn't as lucky).
Every rider should be able to stop their horse at ANY time in a reasonable amount of time. No horse should be crazy enough that they cannot stand in the arena. That is no longer being a partner, that is being a psycho.
My friend just bought a horse real cheap, because she can't even warm up in a pen that has barrels in it. She can't so much as see the barrels out of the corner of her eye or she is trying to take off, with or without her rider. That is crazy. No horse should get that stupid. The rider should be in control, NOT the horse. |
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Saint Stacey
| wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 3:56 PM
Ok but here's question....how many people do you actually see do this successfully. How many pro level people can do this or think it's a good idea for a horse to go in the gate or alley, get in the arena and wait?
You are comparing apples to oranges. But if you want an honest answer...probably 95% of pro horses can do this. I'm going off of slack last year at Cheyenne when the moved the barrel pattern 60 more feet down the pen. Most girls held those horses through the chute, gate and then 150' or so to the timer. Most simply walked that distance. No, they didn't stop. But most could have had the situation called for it. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| My daughter could hold her mare up,but it was not a "walk", she was bouncing. The 4H show officials told us that wasn't good enough, they wanted a flat footed walk almost to the timer. It was her senior year, we just chose not to go back. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | wickedstepmother - 2015-06-02 4:56 PM Ok but here's question....how many people do you actually see do this successfully. How many pro level people can do this or think it's a good idea for a horse to go in the gate or alley, get in the arena and wait?
If I could not ask my horse to STOP at any time before, during, or after a barrel run, I would be doing some serious re-training with my horse.
To me, it's not a question. It is mandatory that my horses have the capability to do it. Whether or not I actually stop my horse before I start my run depends on 1) the rules of the arena 2) what my horse needs 3) the arena set up (long way to 1st barrel, side gate, etc).
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 Chicken Chick
Posts: 3562
Location: Texas | Back in the day (lol) my friend and I were at the top of our club events. Even though we weren't old enough to be in the adult group we would have the fastest times almost every time, unless we knocked or whatever. Even when our parents rode our horses we would beat them. My horse would walk in, granted he was a little wide eyed and high headed, when he knew what was happening... he would walk and I would never have a problem with him trying to take off without me wanting him to. Now my friend, it took an act of Congress to get her horse in the arena without killing himself or someone else. I'm not kidding a bit. He sent her dad to the hospital one night for flipping over on him when they were trying to get him close to the gate. Another time he ran smooth over someone, friend was just a passenger. Even as a fearless kid I thought that horse was flat out dangerous. The minute my horse would act like he wanted to ignore me once we got to the gate or wanted to act dumb my mom would have me working on the gate. It just wasn't an option with one of her horses. It didn't make him any slower, or make us win less... but she wouldn't have me on a horse she couldn't trust to listen to me. Had her drills or whatever not worked, I would have either gotten a new horse or stuck back on my sisters jug head of a horse. Which I did not want lol, that horse was like a bycicle. You stop peddling, he stops going. Now before someone goes off on me. Just because your horse doesn't walk through the gate doesn't mean he is a dink... just one of the things my mom was crazy about.I don't think it should be a problem especially if you knew about the rule. If your daughter can't make her horse do what they want, then I guess don't go to their events.ETA I don't know why this was turned into one big paragraph... sorry.
Edited by pinx05 2015-06-03 11:24 PM
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 The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. There are different perceptions of right. Should a seasoned vetern barrel horse be able to walk in the arena and stand, sure they should, but how many times does everyone who has commented tell a newbie to keep the horse moving or move their feet ot to keep them from locking up.
I don't feel speed events should be held ot the same standards and starts as show events, 2 different concepts.
My horses can do both. Walk flat footed or go in at a fun. I have to rev them up to hit a run before the mouth of the alley, but they know the routine. Everyone has brakes, and enough bit to stop whenever.
I don't think children should have to think more about coming in the arena and "setting up" than they do about how to ride their horse through the pattern.
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| I can see it from both sides.
I understand what the OP is saying about starting bad habits and not wanting to hold a horse back but I can also see it from a safety issue and wanting the kids to be in control of their horses at all times. There is nothing worse than seeing a kid get run off with or one who cannot stop their horse if they needed to. Maybe this rule is in place to ensure that the kids are in control before they begin their run.
In my opinion 4H is really an educational type program and if you are seriously running barrels on a finished horse then you probably don't need to be running them there for ribbons anyway. I would simply go somewhere else or find something else to run at those shows. |
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changing a 4h rule, forward motion in gaming....