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Veteran
Posts: 233
 
| This might get a little long so please bare with me, I would love to hear some opinions or answers. Little background info- I got my mare when she was 5. She is 8 now. Has always been very good with ground manners. Does not have a history of pulling back when tied since I've had her for almost 4 years.
About two weeks ago I had her tied up to the fence by the tack shed. I brushed her, sprayed her off with mosquito repellant, and saddled her up. Everything was going perfectly..she was as calm as she always is. Then I bridled her and led her for maybe two steps and she started pulling back on me. I let go pretty quickly so there was NOT much resistance on the reins at all, and she flipped herself over backwards to the point she got herself stuck between the fence and tack shed. I got her out of there, smacked her one with the end of the lead rope for pulling such a dumb stunt (no I don't regularly beat on my horses for anyone concerned). I made sure she looked to be ok and got on and we went on our ride. She was perfectly fine the rest of our ride.
After that she occasionally acted like she wanted to pull back on me after I would take a step or two leading her. This is ONLY after I have her saddled up, remove her halter, bridle her then take a step or two. She NEVER acts like she wants to pull back when tied.
Fast forward to yesterday- we went to a barrel race. She acted completely normal, never tried her pulling back stunt. And actually ran a super nice pattern for me.
Now TODAY- same exact thing as two weeks ago. Caught her, tied her to the trailer this time. Brushed, saddled, bridled, took maybe ONE step and she pulled back on me. I let go quickly and there was no resistance on the reins at all and she completely flipped herself over backwards. I caught her and she was nice and calm. I tightened the saddle some more and hopped on and we went for our ride. She was a perfect angel the rest of the evening.
I am at a loss at what is randomly causing this. The ONLY thing that has changed somewhat recently is her saddle. I don't believe it is her saddle just due to the fact I probably rode in it 6 times or more and she was perfectly fine. Then one day she randomly freaked out. I also don't believe it's the saddle because I tighten it all the way while she is tied and she never tries pulling back or seem uncomfortable.
She is always up to date on the chiropractor (well I'm sure she's sore now after flipping on her back with a saddle on), teeth, farrier, etc.
I really don't appreciate her falling repeatedly on my new saddle either. Those suckers aren't cheap.
I apologize for this being so long-just trying to include all info.
Any ideas? I guess I'm more curious if there is something really wrong with her or if she's just being a brat. And it is a little scary to have the thought of her flipping over while I'm in the saddle-not that she has ever tried. |
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 A Barrel Of Monkeys
Posts: 12972
  
Location: Texas | Maybe cinch her up in stages? Sounds like she's reacting to being cinched up. |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
| Fun2Run - 2015-06-08 7:58 PM
Maybe cinch her up in stages? Sounds like she's reacting to being cinched up.
I thought of that but I thought she would pull back when tied as well. I think I will start doing it more in stages and if it continues try using my old saddle and see what happens with that. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 371
| it might not pinch until she moves. the contracting and relaxing of muscles could be triggering it. or the action of turning since you would have to turn her away from the place she is saddled to walk off. |
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  Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | The starting stage of ulcers and teeth problem ,causing problem to the poll ,of the horse.probably the latter. I broke one that did this just by touching the reins to lead off would go up and over and always random. Vet in Colorado fixed her problem. Have a vet check her over. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| cow pie - 2015-06-08 8:40 PM
The starting stage of ulcers and teeth problem ,causing problem to the poll ,of the horse.probably the latter. I broke one that did this just by touching the reins to lead off would go up and over and always random. Vet in Colorado fixed her problem. Have a vet check her over.
^This^ I myself have just experienced something similar. I thought it was bad trust issues with a mare a friend is letting me ride, even though the mare's owner said she was acting not herself. My friend was treating her filly for ulcers already so she gave the mare a dose of omeprazole and the setting back problem is gone. |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
| GLP - 2015-06-08 9:27 PM
cow pie - 2015-06-08 8:40 PM
The starting stage of ulcers and teeth problem ,causing problem to the poll ,of the horse.probably the latter. I broke one that did this just by touching the reins to lead off would go up and over and always random. Vet in Colorado fixed her problem. Have a vet check her over.
^This^ I myself have just experienced something similar. I thought it was bad trust issues with a mare a friend is letting me ride, even though the mare's owner said she was acting not herself. My friend was treating her filly for ulcers already so she gave the mare a dose of omeprazole and the setting back problem is gone.
So there IS a way to treat ulcers that can be a quick fix? I was interested in feeding something possibly to see if that also makes a difference, but I feel that could take quite a while to kick in and take care of the issue. She is a nervous horse when hauling-she's all business. So ulcers could be a possibility for sure. |
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Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Omeprezole I believe for 30 days to cure some may need additional days and or maintainance. Might want to have teeth checked also. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| It was for this mare. She will be on the omeprazole for the recommended time- 3 weeks I believe but I am not sure about that. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 302
Location: W. Pa. | I had a gelding do this once at a barrel race. From out of no where he flipped just after I had saddled him. Had been using the same saddle for months. When I realized what he was going to do, I just stepped out of the way. He flipped clean over and ended up in the lawn chairs. I never cinch a horse up quickly because I had a horse when I was much younger that would pull back during saddling, After he was done I went ahead and rode him. He did not do anything like that again until a year later. I saddled him, walked him out a little and got on. I felt him start to puff up just as he did that day a year before and I thought, Oh no, he is going to do it with me in the saddle. Just as I thought I might better get off. He flipped. I was still in the saddle when I hit the ground. Ended up in Hospital for 10 days, Wheel chair for three months, and had to use a walker for many, many months after that only to go back in a year and a half later to have the surgery redone on my broken femur. Point being. Be careful he does not do that with after you are on. Never did know why he did that but I am pretty convinced something pinched him. I had a neoprene girth on him. I have never used one since.
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | I have seen this with saddles that had a broken tree. The flex when cinched up and pinch across the back. |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7264
| Fun2Run - 2015-06-08 7:58 PM
Maybe cinch her up in stages? Sounds like she's reacting to being cinched up.
Exactly. My mare would FLIP right over if I cinched her up tight right from the get go. There was nothing wrong with my saddle and the mare received regular chiro work. I always wondered if it was from an ill-fitting saddle before I got her.
Edited by Griz 2015-06-09 5:36 AM
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Exactly why I NEVER EVER cinch a horse up very much while they're tied up. NEVER.
Loosely hook the cinch, just so that the saddle will stay. Until and walk off 10 feet, tighten it a bit. Walk another 10-15 feet and snug it up a bit. I've fixed lots of cinchy horses and gotten by ones that people have issues with by saddling this way. |
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 Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | I didn't know people still quick cinched. I thought that was a thing of the past..... |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | ~BINGO~ - 2015-06-09 10:10 AM I didn't know people still quick cinched. I thought that was a thing of the past.....
Oh they are still out there, I know this one person that will get it so tight that you can not get any fingers between the skin and cinch and then tighten some more befor they get on  |
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 I Chore in Chucks
Posts: 2882
Location: MD | Southtxponygirl - 2015-06-09 11:18 AM
~BINGO~ - 2015-06-09 10:10 AM I didn't know people still quick cinched. I thought that was a thing of the past.....
Oh they are still out there, I know this one person that will get it so tight that you can not get any fingers between the skin and cinch and then tighten some more befor they get on
ouch!  we do the same as someone else said, tight enough to keep the saddle on at the cross ties, do another cinch at the end of the barn, walk 10 ft before the mounting block & finish cinching, then walk to the block. I've been launched before because of pinches and I plan to not let that happen again!
Edited by Crowned Image 2015-06-09 10:38 AM
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | I was riding a mare once that would do this. It ended up being her stifle locking up. |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | Like someone mentioned before, cinch. What kind are you using? Also the off billets(?). One of them needs to be leather and the cinch should be something that gives. Mohair for example. Neoprene can pull at their skin when they walk off. Then to top it off, ulcers will really set them off. |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | I think it may be your saddle you mentioned you rode in it 6 or so times maybe it's making her sore pinching and she's trying to tell you since that is a "change".....the next thing I would look at it your pad I ride with 5 star well my gelding started doing the same thing ( I hadn't made any saddle changes)after some brain storming I figured out it was my pad yes they do wear out looked on the 5 star website typical life is 2000 rides....put my newer one on problem went away. I was careful even after I made the change to my new pad since horses are creatures of habit.
Next it could be sore hocks had a mare that would set back when it was past time for her injection. |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
| She has never been cinchy once in 4 years. I usually tighten it right away just enough to hold the saddle in place. I walk to trailer to grab her bell boots, walk back to her, put those on, then tighten a little bit more. Thn I go grab her bridle, bridle her, and then that's when I walk her a few steps to finish tightening before I get on. I guess I will try walking her between each time I tighten the saddle although I find it extremely odd she was fine with our routine for 4 years and decided it's not ok now. I also will try my old saddle just to be sure it isn't the new one causing this. The new saddle has a mohair cinch, my old one had more of a neoprene type. I am working on getting an appointment set up with her chiropractor in case she is sore and will likely also chat with our vet. Sorry if this sounds like rambling, I'm typing on my phone very quickly on my lunch break :) |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | ILuvSnap - 2015-06-09 11:58 AM She has never been cinchy once in 4 years. I usually tighten it right away just enough to hold the saddle in place. I walk to trailer to grab her bell boots, walk back to her, put those on, then tighten a little bit more. Thn I go grab her bridle, bridle her, and then that's when I walk her a few steps to finish tightening before I get on. I guess I will try walking her between each time I tighten the saddle although I find it extremely odd she was fine with our routine for 4 years and decided it's not ok now. I also will try my old saddle just to be sure it isn't the new one causing this. The new saddle has a mohair cinch, my old one had more of a neoprene type. I am working on getting an appointment set up with her chiropractor in case she is sore and will likely also chat with our vet. Sorry if this sounds like rambling, I'm typing on my phone very quickly on my lunch break :)
I was going to suggest chiro and see that you are setting up for one.  |
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Veteran
Posts: 242
Location: Nowhere Land | Could be any number of things, she could be out somewhere in her spine, hips shoulders? Could be an Ill fitting saddle, I know you had said this has never happened before and youve had her for some time.. horses backs sometimes change with age.. Could also be Ulcers, Possibly Neurological problem.. Lymes disease.. Vitamin B or E deficiency? pinched Vegus Vein ..? Could be quite a few things. |
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 Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | I read through the comments really fast so I may have missed some information....
First, great suggestions on getting her teeth checked etc, look at chiro, ulcers, etc etc. A great vet can help you with a lot of that.
Some ideas that come to mind....
I read "new saddle"....are you certain it DOES fit her properly? What brand is it? Could you have it inspected to make sure there isn't anything wrong with it? My old rodeo gelding would buck when I first put a Double J LM saddle on him shortly after buying it used. I knew this was not normal, so I sent the saddle back to double J for inspection. They found a piece of rawhide that was out of place (i don't remember details on how or where), fixed it for free, and we were good to go.
Check that, then look at your saddle pad, does it fit well? Is it pinching her withers at all? Is it neoprene?
I think you said you were using a mohair cinch so that rules out any pinching/grabbing of a neoprene one.
Some horses can become "cold backed" or "cinchy" even after years of being fine, if something starts to hurt them. Or if you got the girth too tight a few times. Never tie her when you saddle, maybe loop the rope but don't tie it, and never even begin to tighten her cinch until you walk her. If it is a girth problem, say if she's doing it because the girth hurt her at one point, you can work her out of it. I had to work a few horses out of it. It takes time and patience.
But honestly it could be a variety of things for sure. Just be careful, go slow, be patient, because a horse that flips is not only dangerous to humans, they can kill themselves doing it.
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 Elite Veteran
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| What brand of saddle do you use? |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | kramerica - 2015-06-10 2:12 PM What brand of saddle do you use?
Was wondering the same thing, what brand of saddle are you using? Do you have a picture of your horse tacked up that you can post here? |
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Veteran
Posts: 269
| Had a mare a long time ago act very similar. Someone (I think a vet) told me her "mare vein/milk vein" may be getting pinched. Maybe your new saddle/cinch arrangement is digging into the vein or pinching it when she moves. We solved the problem by cinching up in even slower stages than I had been. |
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| Since you have stated this happens after being bridled up .....I guess I will be the only Sherlock that will ask you to change her bit to another of the same type or as close as possible and also the headstall.
READ NUMBER 8 and 9 first ... lol
1.)If you are using some kind of jointed mouth or o-ring snaffle ... rub and feel all over the bits especially where the joints where bit is moveable and look at the wear where bit attaches to the ring and add bit guards to keep from pinching her corners of the mouth if this is what is happening. Go to Clinton Anderson store and look at the offset O-ring bit there for around $45.. it will not pinch the corners of a horses mouth .. he bought the patent from my old bit maker and I have used these offset o-rings for years and years from breaking to old horses. If your bit .. headstall rig has a curb chain .. change it out. .. Same if you use a tie down change the nose piece and the girth strap.
2.) If you have conchos or bling on your head stall there could be a prick from the hardware ..
3.) She may have bumped her head at the poll or between her ears and when a certain pressure angle is applied to headstall such as leading you get the flipping ..
4.) Found a nail head in a new saddle pricking my horses by repeatedly rubbing my hands in the fleece ... my nail was at the front bar under the swells where they tack the leather to the swells ..
5.) All girths are not made the same.. she could be getting an elbow pinch from the girth buckle ... or a breastbone crunch from a narrow cinch. IMO barrel racing saddles all should use roper cinches since the saddles are so tiny and do not spread a riders weight around well. The more cinch you have under the belly spreads the pressure and can even use less since it covers a larger area with less slip. This cinch has a flat head on it so your leather will pull evenly thru the cinch .. look hard .. this is not a typical round ring cinch buckle. Dennis' stuff is a little more pricey than normal horse junk but well worth it in the long run. Hand wash mohair with woolite and hang in sun to dry and sanitize at the same time. Cinch will last a life time. If you don't understand his how to fit pictures PM me to explain. http://www.dmtack.com/products/11cr-dm-roper-cincha/
6.) Let's call this a simple wither shim to fit the horse to about any saddle you own .. best video from a pro that explains what/why she is using ... https://youtu.be/l4iVhzeegyk ... buying a saddle for each horse is nonsense ..
7.) Last but not least ... check her mouth down below gum level and see if she might have a broken piece of a wolf tooth that is tender or can be felt. When you go to lead a horse with bridle on .. it is one of the few times that bit pressure is placed on the front of the bars that can hit her front bottom teeth or a broken piece of wolf tooth. At the same time .. if you have a worn or poorly made bit and pull straight ahead the center could pinch her tongue or she could get her tongue over it which some horses will flip when they try to take a breath of air and think they have swallowed their tongue when they can't breathe for that one second ... up and over they go ..
8.) Saddle her and for the next month lead her around with halter only and then bridle her and lead her and see if you get any action ... this will let you know it has something to do with your bit and/or headstall setup .. whoops thought I put this first .. lol
9.) New saddle rig is awful suspicious of causing the problem ... since she is flipping after you bought it ... try your best to have her on grass or sandy soft dirt when you bridle her ... they can bash their head like a watermelon when flipping on concrete etc ..
GOOD LUCK .. |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
| I bought a brand new Double J. I don't know a ton about saddle fit but the dealer actually placed the saddle on my horse and told me it fit well. It appears to be less narrow than my old saddle, which was obviously causing pinching that I could see. I use a 5 star saddle pad. I've had it for a few years so it probably is time to get a new one. They hold up so well I guess I'm not positive when you need to upgrade. She was at the chiropractor in March/April sometime just go make sure she wasn't sore before we started running this year, but I am working on getting somethin set up with him. He doesn't live close to me. She also had her teeth checked during that same time. I have tried cinching her very slowly and walking her between tightening it, and so far so good. This was with the new saddle.
I will post photos of her tacked up and such after work tonight or tomorrow. May not get a chance to ride tonight. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| ILuvSnap - 2015-06-11 6:09 AM I bought a brand new Double J. I don't know a ton about saddle fit but the dealer actually placed the saddle on my horse and told me it fit well. It appears to be less narrow than my old saddle, which was obviously causing pinching that I could see. I use a 5 star saddle pad. I've had it for a few years so it probably is time to get a new one. They hold up so well I guess I'm not positive when you need to upgrade. She was at the chiropractor in March/April sometime just go make sure she wasn't sore before we started running this year, but I am working on getting somethin set up with him. He doesn't live close to me. She also had her teeth checked during that same time. I have tried cinching her very slowly and walking her between tightening it, and so far so good. This was with the new saddle. I will post photos of her tacked up and such after work tonight or tomorrow. May not get a chance to ride tonight.
That may have been your problem, sounds like it is getting figured out ... I have no other words of advice but Good Luck! |
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 Having Smokin Bandits
Posts: 4572
Location: Woodstown, NJ | Double Js are real nice, but maybe it just doesn't fit her and it pinched when she moved. I would go back to the old saddle for a while and see if she does it. You certainly want to nip this in the bud as quickly as possible so it doesn't become a habit! Hope you figure it out! Scary! That story the one poster told about going to the hospital was scary! |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I feel your pain. I've had my gelding since he was a 5 year old and he is now 20. He has always been a perfect horse about saddling, tying...everything really. About 7 years ago I was at a big 3 day barrel race and I had tacked him up in his stall. Went to go lead him out and the sucker flew backwards. Ripped the reins right out of my hand and spun me around. He hit the back wall so hard I'm pretty sure the whole barn shook. I didnt know if he had spooked or what had caused that. I just grabbed him and carried on and he was fine. Since that day, you CAN NOT cinch him tight if he is tied. And he will even still pull away from me sometimes after I cinch him up and try to walk him away. No idea what causes it and I probably wont ever know. But when he does it you cant hold him. I just have to catch him when he's done. |
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Horse randomly flipping over..?