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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
  
Location: PNW | I have a gelding that came off the track and 98% of the time, he has lovely ground manners and is a joy to deal with. The other 2% of the time, if he gets excited/nervous/scared he is all but unmanageable without a stud chain. It's like his whole brain shuts off. Anybody have any experience with something like this?
On a daily basis, he is handled in a rope halter with knots, and a cotton lead. I keep a regular halter/chain in the trailer to use should we have a "2%" moment. I work on ground work every day with him using the Clinton Anderson/Buck Brannaman type methods, and he's REALLY good, unless he's upset and is just having one of his moments. | |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
 
Location: Bandera, TX | HOW LONG HAS HE BEEN WITH YOU?I LIKE B1 FOR HIS TYPES.... | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | uno-dos-tres! - 2015-07-05 9:25 PM
HOW LONG HAS HE BEEN WITH YOU?I LIKE B1 FOR HIS TYPES....
He's been with me two years. He's REALLY nice when he's normal, it's just every once in a while he just is flat horrible. Like, run you over or rip your arms off horrible. It isn't any one thing in particular that sets it off, it's just every once in a great while he has a psychotic episode. Lol.
Is that vitamin B? Or? | |
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 Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | I was gonna suggest Clinton Anderson. Do you do the whole method or just bits & pieces of it? Desensitize like your life depends on it! Sacking out, tarps, loud noises, literally anything you can think of to expose your horse to. You need to "scare" your horse, the more you find things that scare them & they learn it's not going to eat them, the calmer they are all around. Don't ever sneak around to avoid scaring them, doing this feeds they're fearful, spooky tendencies. When he gets in his excited stage, move his feet in all directions. Lunge him both ways with multiple changes in direction, if you just run in one direction for 10 laps at a time he won't focus one you, but if you keep changing it up on him, he'll pay attention. Do lots of backing, yielding hindquarters & forequarters. Make him more concerned with you then his surroundings.
Hope you get this problem fixed  | |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | B 1
Is it after he's had a break from any interaction? Thats when I've noticed problems with the x track horses. Some just have a screw that gets loose and away they go... | |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | Panther14 - 2015-07-06 1:41 AM I was gonna suggest Clinton Anderson. Do you do the whole method or just bits & pieces of it? Desensitize like your life depends on it! Sacking out, tarps, loud noises, literally anything you can think of to expose your horse to. You need to "scare" your horse, the more you find things that scare them & they learn it's not going to eat them, the calmer they are all around. Don't ever sneak around to avoid scaring them, doing this feeds they're fearful, spooky tendencies. When he gets in his excited stage, move his feet in all directions. Lunge him both ways with multiple changes in direction, if you just run in one direction for 10 laps at a time he won't focus one you, but if you keep changing it up on him, he'll pay attention. Do lots of backing, yielding hindquarters & forequarters. Make him more concerned with you then his surroundings. Hope you get this problem fixed
 I don't let them have excuses...I rode one down sat after a rodeo the night before where they left the tractor close to the bucking chutes and the wall with banners that 4 yr gelding didn't want to have anything to do with getting near those objects. by the time we were done he was loping on a loose rein doing flying figure 8's. In hand or up top they need to do what you want your their focus point not the surroundings... | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | It doesn't seem to be anything to do with desensitizing, he's not spooking at stuff - he just acts like an effing monster. Lol.
Uno - yes, it does seem to occur after a lengthy (like 3 days or more) break of any kind.
Maybe it's just x track crazy, I can live with it. Lol thanks guys! | |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | I have a mare that is 15, been off the track for 10 years, and she still has those moments. But they aren't on the ground, they're when I'm on her. She'll be absolutely fine and then something will set her off and if she doesn't have a tie-down on and can get her head away from me, I have no control at all. And usually during those moments, as she's flailing her head and leaping and just being a pill, I wonder how the hell anyone ever managed to work this monster on the track without falling off.
So even though she generally doesn't need a tie-down, I keep one on her whenever I'm riding with other horses and at races, because if she has a moment I don't want to run over top of someone. I hate it because she has a petite face and the tie-down makes her face look "cluttered" haha. | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | svincent - 2015-07-06 11:19 AM
It doesn't seem to be anything to do with desensitizing, he's not spooking at stuff - he just acts like an effing monster. Lol.
Uno - yes, it does seem to occur after a lengthy (like 3 days or more) break of any kind.
Maybe it's just x track crazy, I can live with it. Lol thanks guys!
Haha well the same approach should work, when he acts up, WORK him. He may be a frothy, sweaty mess afterwards but eventually he'll realise that the only way he can rest & feel comfortable is to just settle down. Groundwork only when he's good won't make that much of difference in his excited state, it's when he's excited that you can really teach him something instead of just going through the motions everyday.
Edited by Panther14 2015-07-06 1:29 PM
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | Panther14 - 2015-07-06 11:27 AM
svincent - 2015-07-06 11:19 AM
It doesn't seem to be anything to do with desensitizing, he's not spooking at stuff - he just acts like an effing monster. Lol.
Uno - yes, it does seem to occur after a lengthy (like 3 days or more) break of any kind.
Maybe it's just x track crazy, I can live with it. Lol thanks guys!
Haha well the same approach should work, when he acts up, WORK him. He may be a frothy, sweaty mess afterwards but eventually he'll realise that the only way he can rest & feel comfortable is to just settle down. Groundwork only when he's good won't make that much of difference in his excited state, it's when he's excited that you can really teach him something instead of just going through the motions everyday.
Oh, he definitely gets worked when he does it. I was more looking to see if anybody has any racehorse specific insight, he's my first one. I was thinking maybe I was just missing something. He did it last Friday and we had a groundwork meeting of the minds up and down our driveway for like an hour.
Yes, he gets his teeth checked/done routinely.
When he has his crazy days, he's FINE under saddle - just nucking futs on the ground. Lol | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | svincent - 2015-07-06 3:34 PM
Panther14 - 2015-07-06 11:27 AM
svincent - 2015-07-06 11:19 AM
It doesn't seem to be anything to do with desensitizing, he's not spooking at stuff - he just acts like an effing monster. Lol.
Uno - yes, it does seem to occur after a lengthy (like 3 days or more) break of any kind.
Maybe it's just x track crazy, I can live with it. Lol thanks guys!
Haha well the same approach should work, when he acts up, WORK him. He may be a frothy, sweaty mess afterwards but eventually he'll realise that the only way he can rest & feel comfortable is to just settle down. Groundwork only when he's good won't make that much of difference in his excited state, it's when he's excited that you can really teach him something instead of just going through the motions everyday.
Oh, he definitely gets worked when he does it. I was more looking to see if anybody has any racehorse specific insight, he's my first one. I was thinking maybe I was just missing something. He did it last Friday and we had a groundwork meeting of the minds up and down our driveway for like an hour.
Yes, he gets his teeth checked/done routinely.
When he has his crazy days, he's FINE under saddle - just nucking futs on the ground. Lol
What do you do exactly when he acts up? From beginning to end. If he's fine %98 of the time & fine undersaddle I don't think it's a ex-racehorse problem. And what exactly does he do? | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | Panther14 - 2015-07-06 3:52 PM
svincent - 2015-07-06 3:34 PM
Panther14 - 2015-07-06 11:27 AM
svincent - 2015-07-06 11:19 AM
It doesn't seem to be anything to do with desensitizing, he's not spooking at stuff - he just acts like an effing monster. Lol.
Uno - yes, it does seem to occur after a lengthy (like 3 days or more) break of any kind.
Maybe it's just x track crazy, I can live with it. Lol thanks guys!
Haha well the same approach should work, when he acts up, WORK him. He may be a frothy, sweaty mess afterwards but eventually he'll realise that the only way he can rest & feel comfortable is to just settle down. Groundwork only when he's good won't make that much of difference in his excited state, it's when he's excited that you can really teach him something instead of just going through the motions everyday.
Oh, he definitely gets worked when he does it. I was more looking to see if anybody has any racehorse specific insight, he's my first one. I was thinking maybe I was just missing something. He did it last Friday and we had a groundwork meeting of the minds up and down our driveway for like an hour.
Yes, he gets his teeth checked/done routinely.
When he has his crazy days, he's FINE under saddle - just nucking futs on the ground. Lol
What do you do exactly when he acts up? From beginning to end. If he's fine %98 of the time & fine undersaddle I don't think it's a ex-racehorse problem. And what exactly does he do?
Also I used to have an ex-race mare. She was HORRIBLE on the ground, after working with her she turned into one of my best horses on the ground & undersaddle. | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | The routine doesn't change from normal to crazy, as far as procedures, grooming, work, living situation, feed, etc.
My groundwork with him mainly involves reinforcing MY space vs HIS space, moving his feet, and him working off my body language. When I walk, he walks - at MY speed. When I stop, he stops. When I back, he backs. And he does this spectacularly, and then one day it all of the sudden will be gone - and then we spend our entire time together getting back to acting like a normal horse, and he will be fine for another 99 days. Lol
I'm beginning to think it's just him and being a testy butthead, since it doesn't seem like people think it's a racehorse thing. I can live with it, it's just an annoyance. I just wanted to make sure that if it was a "racehorse thing" - that I was trying the right things.
Thank you everybody!! | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | Sorry, I forgot the last bit.
Him being horrible = rushing around, pushing into/over me, just generally being physically disrespectful of my space, and it's like he doesn't even notice he's doing it. | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | What I would do then is carry a dressage type whip & when he gets in these moments & he comes into you, give him a good whack on the shoulder/neck or get a spur & when he comes into you jab him in his side. Since it's a pushing issue I would also back him, back him, back him. Sometimes with horses that don't use they're thinking side of they're brain, running em won't work. So it's like this, If he steps sideways into you with his forequarters, move his forequarters in the other direction, quickly. If he swings his hind end into you, yield that hind end quickly, with a quick whack of the lead on his butt. If he just walks right into you, back him up, quickly. If he walks right past you, back him, make him change direction then lunge him. Is he young? Sounds like an immature brain lol Also as long as you don't strike a horses face or whack them repeatedly, it shouldn't make them fearful, no worse then what they're buddies do to em in the pasture :) | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | Panther14 - 2015-07-06 4:26 PM
What I would do then is carry a dressage type whip & when he gets in these moments & he comes into you, give him a good whack on the shoulder/neck or get a spur & when he comes into you jab him in his side. Since it's a pushing issue I would also back him, back him, back him. Sometimes with horses that don't use they're thinking side of they're brain, running em won't work. So it's like this, If he steps sideways into you with his forequarters, move his forequarters in the other direction, quickly. If he swings his hind end into you, yield that hind end quickly, with a quick whack of the lead on his butt. If he just walks right into you, back him up, quickly. If he walks right past you, back him, make him change direction then lunge him. Is he young? Sounds like an immature brain lol Also as long as you don't strike a horses face or whack them repeatedly, it shouldn't make them fearful, no worse then what they're buddies do to em in the pasture :)
Thank you! This is exactly what I have been doing. He's 9, raced until he was 4, was a pony horse (I honestly don't know how) until he was 6, turned out for a year - I bought him at 7. | |
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Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | svincent - 2015-07-06 6:44 PM
Panther14 - 2015-07-06 4:26 PM
What I would do then is carry a dressage type whip & when he gets in these moments & he comes into you, give him a good whack on the shoulder/neck or get a spur & when he comes into you jab him in his side. Since it's a pushing issue I would also back him, back him, back him. Sometimes with horses that don't use they're thinking side of they're brain, running em won't work. So it's like this, If he steps sideways into you with his forequarters, move his forequarters in the other direction, quickly. If he swings his hind end into you, yield that hind end quickly, with a quick whack of the lead on his butt. If he just walks right into you, back him up, quickly. If he walks right past you, back him, make him change direction then lunge him. Is he young? Sounds like an immature brain lol Also as long as you don't strike a horses face or whack them repeatedly, it shouldn't make them fearful, no worse then what they're buddies do to em in the pasture :)
Thank you! This is exactly what I have been doing. He's 9, raced until he was 4, was a pony horse (I honestly don't know how ) until he was 6, turned out for a year - I bought him at 7.
Yea it sounds like he's definitely younger in his mind then his age lol The thing with racehorse trainer is they don't care how they are on the ground as long as they can run. But it's not a "racehorse" problem, it's bad start problem. This can happen with any horse in any discipline. I think he'll get better with time, also after one of his episodes (or really anytime you work with him) make sure when he calms down to tie him up for at the very least an hour, to teach him patience & let his mind soak up as much as possible. | |
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 Saint Stacey
| I've always kicked them in the chest with the side of my foot. You never face them. But when they start to come over you, you just lift your right foot and bump them in the chest. They tend to back off real fast. Before people go all postal about thus method, I'll explain why it works. It's very similar to how a mare will reprimand her foal. Most of the time you don't have to do it hard. It reminds them to keep their distance. It eventually gets to the point that you just shift your weight and start to lift your foot and they will stop and back off. | |
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Saint Stacey
| The first time you do it, you might have to get after him pretty hard. You want to get to the point that when you stop, they stop. If you walk backwards, they better start moving their own feet backwards and get out of your way. Again, never face them. | |
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| Lay him down a few times! It helped my off the track mare soooo much! | |
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Location: California | Ditto Clinton Anderson. Now I've had my OTT horse for over 20 years and he still has his moments. When he was running there were times I had to have a shank on him whenever he 'went over to the dark side'. No big deal. I remember seeing a top barrel racer unloading her horse and putting a shank on him. It's wasn't because she wasn't a hand. They just see dead people sometimes. But do checkout Clinton Anderson's methods. I've seen great things with people using his training. | |
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Location: California | Oh and it seems to hit him once a month like a period. | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | NonaY - 2015-07-08 11:12 AM
Ditto Clinton Anderson. Now I've had my OTT horse for over 20 years and he still has his moments. When he was running there were times I had to have a shank on him whenever he 'went over to the dark side'. No big deal. I remember seeing a top barrel racer unloading her horse and putting a shank on him. It's wasn't because she wasn't a hand. They just see dead people sometimes. But do checkout Clinton Anderson's methods. I've seen great things with people using his training.
Sounds just exactly like my guy. Thanks!! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Heart of Texas | Are these random 2% moments or during/before/after specific events? I ask because if he gets hot after a run or before it's just his adrenaline and that's normal. We ask horses to be super fast and quick in the arena and then expect pleasure horses outside. That's not fair. You don't want anything that's dangerous by any means but we're breeding bigger, stronger, faster horses and expect them to behave like well trained labs. Lets be realistic. | |
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The Resident Destroyer of Liberal Logic
Location: PNW | jewishprincess - 2015-07-09 8:24 AM
Are these random 2% moments or during/before/after specific events? I ask because if he gets hot after a run or before it's just his adrenaline and that's normal. We ask horses to be super fast and quick in the arena and then expect pleasure horses outside. That's not fair. You don't want anything that's dangerous by any means but we're breeding bigger, stronger, faster horses and expect them to behave like well trained labs. Lets be realistic.
No, the only thing it seems to follow is a two or three day break from any handling, but even then - it's not a regular thing. He does get pumped up at races, but these moments of horrid behavior are way past that. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Heart of Texas | The only I could suggest is be sure to lounge him before you ride him if he's had a few days off. OR if you can. Heck, open him up. Let him run. Let him get some of that energy out. When I started my OTT horse I would have to work her BEFORE I hauled her b/c I was worried she would spaz and hurt someone. We were only exhibitioning but the energy of the race brought back her race days and she would just get so jazzed up she could hardly walk. It's taken a year of just hauling to get her mind a little more calm. | |
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 Ace Ventura Pet Detective
Posts: 2411
Location: Wisconsin | How long has he been off the track? takes lots of time to get all the "vitamins" out of their system. Sounds like he needs grain taken away and needs to be tired. But most of all, dont make it an issue ..All mine have come from the track. And i can tell which have had only a couple outs, and the ones who have been run for 2 yrs or more | |
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 Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | Meh. My 8 year old, 14.2 hh reining bred mare gets a chain a lot of the time. I get some weird looks but it works, so I roll with it. My vet's assistant looked at me weird when I handed her the lead rope today with a stud chain on. I shrugged and my vet just replied, "she can be a pill." I problem with her is she knows where she can push her boundaries and my buttons (ie- the vet, farrier, etc). She is by no means dangerous, she's just a lot more manageable with a chain. | |
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Racehorses/ground manners/HELP?