|
|
Member
Posts: 26
| I need some advice! A little backstory on this mare- shes a 6 yr old that I bought out of Texas in January (I live in Pennsylvania). Came to me in excellent health/condition. She had a tough winter. Started slipping weight almost immediately, haircoat became poor, she just wasn't quite right. Not sick, just not quite right. Addressed basic issues- feed, teeth, worms, basic bloodwork, etc... all came back fine. Finally, in about April, it all came to a head and she turned up downright sick. Off feed, dull, listless, just looked terrible. More bloodwork revealed a definite infection along with several concerning electrolyte imbalances (Hyper K+, Hypo Na+). Many expensive titers later turned up nothing- so we just treated the symptoms with good old SMZ's, which corrected the labs and got her feeling better quickly. At this point she was extremely underweight and had lost her topline muscling completely, and also became very back sore.
I have had her on Platinum Performance CJ since she's been with me. I chose this as an overall all-in-one to give me some joint maintenance on a horse without joint problems. Per my vet's recommendation, I switched her over to Triple Crown Senior feed to help me get the groceries back on her-- and it worked like a charm (So she's currently on 4 lbs TC senior + PP CJ daily). What I have now is a chubby mare with an outstanding haircoat and NO topline!
My thoughts are to revamp my feed/supplement program a bit to help me get the muscling back on her. I realize this will also take lots of low and slow reconditioning, but want to get the most bang for my buck out of my feed as well. Back soreness is slowly improving with the use of a PHT sheet and acupuncture treatments, but I really think the ticket is to get her reconditioned in general from what she lost.
This is what I'm considering:
Renew Gold- I hear lots of good things about the yeast/fermented component of this feed for better utilization of nutrition. Is it all it's cracked up to be? I would be willing to give it a shot- but it looks like I'll have to go through hell and high water to get someone around here to order it in for me so want to be pretty sure it's worth it 
T.H.E Muscle Mass and Pentosan maintenance schedule to replace the Platinum CJ. For what I'm spending on the platinum, It seems like I can spend the same money and be getting injectable joint maintenance, and the MM looks like it will help me target my specific concerns about topline development.
Does this sound like a reasonable plan for her? Can anyone with experience with the specific products I'm looking into chime in?
TIA, I really appreciate any input/advice!!
 (ruby1.jpg)
 (ruby2.jpg)
 (ruby3.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 ruby1.jpg (86KB - 245 downloads)
ruby2.jpg (87KB - 169 downloads)
ruby3.jpg (87KB - 170 downloads)
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 26
| Nobody ? | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
  
| There is no picture, no details, nothing to comment on | |
| | |
 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
 
| Platinum Performance has all you need | |
| | |
Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Have you had the horse checked for EPM? Transporting could be enough stress to make the symptoms worse. | |
| | |
Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Transform DSI from Bluebonnet. I feed that and PP CJ to my gelding. The Transform (and his BB feed) made him look like a totally different horse. Lysine is supposed to help with topline. I give my gelding a scoop of it around the days we do a lot of topline work. | |
| | |
  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I dont know if you said but how long have you been working conditioning her for sinces shes gotten better ? Id leave her on that since its working and I think once you start long and low and trot poles and working her over her back the topline will develop and she will as well.. | |
| | |
The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| The high k+ has me wondering if you have checked for hypp?
To get the best bang for your buck, i would look at mixing your own feed. For skinny horses that I have bought I mixed my own feed as I don't think they can handle the processed food.
When I mix my own I use
While oats
Soaked barley (higher fat content then oats)
Flax seed I grind mine for the first month then I feed whole
Red cell
Coconut oil
The last few weeks I have contemplated mixing my own for my barrel horses. Currently they get buckeye grow and win, flax seed, 2 cups of whole oats, papaya puréed, and lubrysin
As for joint supplement
I use lubrysin daily and have never had cleaner/tighter legs down side you do have to feed it daily.
I do try to keep everything as simple as possible so I am not upsetting the hind gut.
If I suspect ulcers I do treat, and I do have one I give ulcer meds the day before day of and day after competition | |
| | |
 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I don't think you will be disappointed in the Muscle Mass. Most people see immediate improvement. They also have a great money back guarantee-return the packaging within 45 days. I also went to using Pentosan on 3 of my horses and have been very pleased with the results. I did the loading dose and now give monthly with plans to give the day before a weekend show (so those months would end up being a shot every 2 weeks). I also do PHT sheets and leg wraps when hauling or before/after a long ride. Mine are just on grass pasture right now. I can email you pictures and there may be several others that can chime in on the Muscle Mass and the results they have gotten. | |
| | |
 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Bibliafarm - 2015-07-12 7:51 PM
I dont know if you said but how long have you been working conditioning her for sinces shes gotten better ? Id leave her on that since its working and I think once you start long and low and trot poles and working her over her back the topline will develop and she will as well..
This is what I was thinking---working to build her muscles up and stay with what's working. That CJ is awesome stuff! | |
| | |
 Mature beyond Years
Posts: 10780
Location: North of the 49th Parallel | Renew Gold and THE Muscle Mass. My mare has never had a "bad" topline but with this, she just bloomed overnight. Even the vet I used last week who I hadn't used in a year asked me what she was on. I board at the same barn every summer and I've had about 4 people tell me she looks like a different horse compared to last summer. | |
| | |
 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | I am kind of in the same boat. My horse was pretty underweight when I brought him to AZ in Dec. I immediately started him on Renew Gold and he gained weight fabulously. The picture is Dec 4, 2014 and 3 days ago. I am thinking about adding the muscle mass and the pentosan. I know I can't really reverse what he's been naturally been given (high withers). I feel like he could be a little more muscled up though. For the record I think your mare looks pretty good considering.
Edited by hammer_time 2015-07-12 11:04 PM
 (image.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
image.jpg (62KB - 169 downloads)
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 26
| Im not sure why some cant see my post or pics! Thank you for all of the suggestions, I am really torn on leaving the PP CJ because she does look so shiny and healthy on it, but there is just so much conflicting info out there on whether or not doing a feed through joint supplement is worth the $$ that I'm pouring into it.
My local Agway is able to order the RG in for me, so I am going to give it a shot.
WyomingBarrelracer- can you give me some more info on the THE MM? I know that I can get some special blends put into it, what would you recommend to get me most "complete" overall supplement that could replace all of the benefits that are included in the Platinum (minus the joint component)
I am about 10 weeks into reconditioning her post-illness. Yes, we did test for HYPP given the hyperkalemia, even though it was a longshot due to no impressive breeding whatsoever- I guess mutations can happen. But that was thankfully negative and no suspicious symptoms. We did titers for Lyme and Anaplasmosis and got nothing, vet didn't think EPM titer was warranted based on nothing neurological in her symptoms. Her muscle atrophy is very generalized, not to a specific area or side, just total topline loss.
One more thing- those that do the Pentosan through horseprerace--- The price is hard to beat, is this place really legit? I'm almost afraid of ending up with a vial of mystery drug/ingredients?! It seems like a lot of people here have had great success with them though?
Thanks again! | |
| | |
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | aadams4545 - 2015-07-13 4:03 PM Im not sure why some cant see my post or pics! Thank you for all of the suggestions, I am really torn on leaving the PP CJ because she does look so shiny and healthy on it, but there is just so much conflicting info out there on whether or not doing a feed through joint supplement is worth the $$ that I'm pouring into it. My local Agway is able to order the RG in for me, so I am going to give it a shot. WyomingBarrelracer- can you give me some more info on the THE MM? I know that I can get some special blends put into it, what would you recommend to get me most "complete" overall supplement that could replace all of the benefits that are included in the Platinum (minus the joint component) I am about 10 weeks into reconditioning her post-illness. Yes, we did test for HYPP given the hyperkalemia, even though it was a longshot due to no impressive breeding whatsoever- I guess mutations can happen. But that was thankfully negative and no suspicious symptoms. We did titers for Lyme and Anaplasmosis and got nothing, vet didn't think EPM titer was warranted based on nothing neurological in her symptoms. Her muscle atrophy is very generalized, not to a specific area or side, just total topline loss. One more thing- those that do the Pentosan through horseprerace--- The price is hard to beat, is this place really legit? I'm almost afraid of ending up with a vial of mystery drug/ingredients?! It seems like a lot of people here have had great success with them though? Thanks again! Hey, the MM is a complete vitamin, mineral, amino acid supplement. It really targets the topline. Bob can formulate something just right for your horse if you want to send in a blood panel. It does cost more than the regular one where you add the blends you want. I just always do ulcer prevent and joint & arthritis in all my blends. Those are the most important to me. I have a pony on laminitis and senior as well and my riding horse is on one that has hair & coat and breather. He gets a cough the first few minutes of every ride and adding the breather blend has done wonders.
Where your mare seems to have some mystery going on, Bob can probably really do something based on her bloodwork.
As for the Pentosan from Horseprerace, I have bought 3 bottles with no issues and no side effects. I am cautious enough to use paypal with a credit card so if it is a no show etc, I can fight it with the credit card company behind me. One of the horses I am giving it to had a broken pelvis a few yrs ago and he is doing very well. Seems as sound as can be and I am hoping most of that is just him, but I imagine the Pentosan is helping as well. I know it is making the super old pony have more pep in his step.
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2015-07-13 6:21 PM
| |
| | |
Member
Posts: 26
| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-07-13 7:19 PM
aadams4545 - 2015-07-13 4:03 PM Im not sure why some cant see my post or pics! Thank you for all of the suggestions, I am really torn on leaving the PP CJ because she does look so shiny and healthy on it, but there is just so much conflicting info out there on whether or not doing a feed through joint supplement is worth the $$ that I'm pouring into it. My local Agway is able to order the RG in for me, so I am going to give it a shot. WyomingBarrelracer- can you give me some more info on the THE MM? I know that I can get some special blends put into it, what would you recommend to get me most "complete" overall supplement that could replace all of the benefits that are included in the Platinum (minus the joint component) I am about 10 weeks into reconditioning her post-illness. Yes, we did test for HYPP given the hyperkalemia, even though it was a longshot due to no impressive breeding whatsoever- I guess mutations can happen. But that was thankfully negative and no suspicious symptoms. We did titers for Lyme and Anaplasmosis and got nothing, vet didn't think EPM titer was warranted based on nothing neurological in her symptoms. Her muscle atrophy is very generalized, not to a specific area or side, just total topline loss. One more thing- those that do the Pentosan through horseprerace--- The price is hard to beat, is this place really legit? I'm almost afraid of ending up with a vial of mystery drug/ingredients?! It seems like a lot of people here have had great success with them though? Thanks again! Hey, the MM is a complete vitamin, mineral, amino acid supplement. It really targets the topline. Bob can formulate something just right for your horse if you want to send in a blood panel. It does cost more than the regular one where you add the blends you want. I just always do ulcer prevent and joint & arthritis in all my blends. Those are the most important to me. I have a pony on laminitis and senior as well and my riding horse is on one that has hair & coat and breather. He gets a cough the first few minutes of every ride and adding the breather blend has done wonders.
Where your mare seems to have some mystery going on, Bob can probably really do something based on her bloodwork.
As for the Pentosan from Horseprerace, I have bought 3 bottles with no issues and no side effects. I am cautious enough to use paypal with a credit card so if it is a no show etc, I can fight it with the credit card company behind me. One of the horses I am giving it to had a broken pelvis a few yrs ago and he is doing very well. Seems as sound as can be and I am hoping most of that is just him, but I imagine the Pentosan is helping as well. I know it is making the super old pony have more pep in his step.
You are a THE dealer, correct? Do you have a website? Currently all bloodwork on this horse is coming back perfectly normal, and she is working really nicely for me. She looks and acts very healthy, she does not seem to be back sore anymore, she just isn't getting her topline back. I do believe that the PP CJ is a great product and I hate to be one of those people that jumps around on supplements and feed but I think I could be maximizing my results with her a little more and maybe improve my joint maintenance regimen in the process. If there is a good guarantee on the MM I think I'd like to give it a try. Also think I'm going to bite the bullet and try horseprerace... something about it screams too good to be true when compared to my vet's markup prices--- but hey I haven't seen a bad review on here yet...
Thanks all! | |
| | |
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | aadams4545 - 2015-07-13 6:11 PM
wyoming barrel racer - 2015-07-13 7:19 PM
aadams4545 - 2015-07-13 4:03 PM Im not sure why some cant see my post or pics! Thank you for all of the suggestions, I am really torn on leaving the PP CJ because she does look so shiny and healthy on it, but there is just so much conflicting info out there on whether or not doing a feed through joint supplement is worth the $$ that I'm pouring into it. My local Agway is able to order the RG in for me, so I am going to give it a shot. WyomingBarrelracer- can you give me some more info on the THE MM? I know that I can get some special blends put into it, what would you recommend to get me most "complete" overall supplement that could replace all of the benefits that are included in the Platinum (minus the joint component) I am about 10 weeks into reconditioning her post-illness. Yes, we did test for HYPP given the hyperkalemia, even though it was a longshot due to no impressive breeding whatsoever- I guess mutations can happen. But that was thankfully negative and no suspicious symptoms. We did titers for Lyme and Anaplasmosis and got nothing, vet didn't think EPM titer was warranted based on nothing neurological in her symptoms. Her muscle atrophy is very generalized, not to a specific area or side, just total topline loss. One more thing- those that do the Pentosan through horseprerace--- The price is hard to beat, is this place really legit? I'm almost afraid of ending up with a vial of mystery drug/ingredients?! It seems like a lot of people here have had great success with them though? Thanks again! Hey, the MM is a complete vitamin, mineral, amino acid supplement. It really targets the topline. Bob can formulate something just right for your horse if you want to send in a blood panel. It does cost more than the regular one where you add the blends you want. I just always do ulcer prevent and joint & arthritis in all my blends. Those are the most important to me. I have a pony on laminitis and senior as well and my riding horse is on one that has hair & coat and breather. He gets a cough the first few minutes of every ride and adding the breather blend has done wonders.
Where your mare seems to have some mystery going on, Bob can probably really do something based on her bloodwork.
As for the Pentosan from Horseprerace, I have bought 3 bottles with no issues and no side effects. I am cautious enough to use paypal with a credit card so if it is a no show etc, I can fight it with the credit card company behind me. One of the horses I am giving it to had a broken pelvis a few yrs ago and he is doing very well. Seems as sound as can be and I am hoping most of that is just him, but I imagine the Pentosan is helping as well. I know it is making the super old pony have more pep in his step.
You are a THE dealer, correct? Do you have a website? Currently all bloodwork on this horse is coming back perfectly normal, and she is working really nicely for me. She looks and acts very healthy, she does not seem to be back sore anymore, she just isn't getting her topline back. I do believe that the PP CJ is a great product and I hate to be one of those people that jumps around on supplements and feed but I think I could be maximizing my results with her a little more and maybe improve my joint maintenance regimen in the process. If there is a good guarantee on the MM I think I'd like to give it a try. Also think I'm going to bite the bullet and try horseprerace... something about it screams too good to be true when compared to my vet's markup prices--- but hey I haven't seen a bad review on here yet...
Thanks all!
I am a distributor for it. Great on the blood work all normal. I think you are on the right track. I think the PP CJ is a good product, has a decent following, but also a big price tag. I have a ton of people that have switched from it, pricing being a big reason and they are totally happy that they did. It has a 45 day money back guarantee-less the shipping. On an 80 dose bag that would be $6. Any feed through can take 30 days to see results, but most see improvement in 10 days to 2 weeks.
website is floating around here on a banner ad somewhere or http://grazingbithorses.com/equineedge.html | |
| | |
Veteran
Posts: 139
Location: Abbotsford B.C. Canada | Ok I may sound like I am off the mark compared to the others who have replied (all with great information I must add), but I suggest you contact whover you wish to use as a feed company and ask about using their weaning ration to literally regrow the horse and especially the top line. This should be balanced and give the horse the goodies it needs to, as you say, get the muscle on the top line. A senior feed may not be quite the same thing. Then you should not have to top up with lysine or other supplements to get the muscle on the horse. The ligaments and tendons may benefit as well.
If the horse has the muscle mass of a younger horse feed her like a younger horse. I am sure the company's nutritionist would be happy to talk to you. The horse was quite thin when you got it , and I suggest she may have also been run down on mineral reserves including lowered bone mass and also smaller than normal organs as they shrink in horses that are underfed . The weanling feed will add more minerals which she needs when training. You cannot see a calcium deficiency from blood work as there is a hormonal system to keep calcium at proper levels in blood at the expense of the bone called the parathyroid hormone. It will rob the bone to keep blood calcium at proper levels .
The sore back may be a lack of minerals in general and with lack of top line there may be saddle fit issues etc of course.
Talk to your feed company nutritionist and I bet she can help you.
There is more going here than what you see just looking at her and the blood work.
Just a cowboy's opinion.
Cheers,
Coastal Rider
So I would also suggest you add alfalfa hay as that is a great way to get more nutrients into the horse safely and this will also help buffer acid in the stomach as most performance horses doing speed work have some issues. They simply produce more acid because they get excited for example, as it is well proven that alfalfa truly buffers acid way better than grass hays, and if you time feeding it to her about 1 -2 hours before a training session (just 2 lbs maybe ) you will have that in the stomach to catch acid getting splashed up as she rounds up and runs etc.
The laflfa can be 1/4-1/2 the forage and should be helpfull.
I also suggest we do have good research finally that a marine source of omega three fatty acids will have the active omega threes penetrate into the carpal joints and reduce inflammatory markers. Also they help with COPD as per erecent info in the horse. I would not necessarily drop the flax which adds the omega three fatty acid that is the precursor to the active ones in fish oil and the new algae sources which you can track down.
The data are in the vet journals and he/she will
know about this information.
THe new algae sources can replace the fish oil idea and are handy and cost effective . The flax does other things like help prevent colic and ulcers so keep it for a while and try the alage stuff. Use whatever the vet suggests for a joint supplement or your own good judgement.
| |
| | |
 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | A good quality probiotic is a very simple and relatively inexpensive place to start. Get her gut healthy and processing what you're already giving her and you should be good to go. She's a very cute mare! | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | She just needs more protein. Get her a really good quality soybean based ration balancer and don't worry about all that other stuff except of course excellent hay. Alfalfa will fix a topline faster than anything too. I feed Progressive Nutrition Grass Formula but I think in your area you can get Buckeye easier? Either is excellent.
Put your money into a good basic feed and skip all those supplements and the other feeds. We all want to do what is best for our horses and the inclination is to want to buy supplements . . . makes us feel great. But just like for people, vitamins, supplements are no replacement for a good basic diet. | |
| | |
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I see the pictures and she looks good, just maybe could use a bit of weight. Platinum Performance is good and it looks like it is working for you. That horse is slick and shiny.
My opinion, you are wasting your time looking for other supplements. They are simply that, supplemental. Only thing that mare needs is more calories and or better forage. Unless you up the calories or quantity of feed, I can guarantee you wont see any results.
With nutrition, I feel you should start at the beginning and go from there. The very best forage you can find and plenty of it is the first place to start, followed by a good digestive supplement(only if the digestive system is compromised). Finally, more concentrate in the form of good starch and good fat. That will take care of 99% of all horses. The other 1% have a medical problem of sorts that needs to be diagnosed by a vet. That in a nutshell is how I view nutrition and feeding health.
Edited by Tdove 2015-07-14 10:42 AM
| |
| | |
Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Tdove - 2015-07-14 10:31 AM I see the pictures and she looks good, just maybe could use a bit of weight. Platinum Performance is good and it looks like it is working for you. That horse is slick and shiny. My opinion, you are wasting your time looking for other supplements. They are simply that, supplemental. Only thing that mare needs is more calories and or better forage. Unless you up the calories or quantity of feed, I can guarantee you wont see any results. With nutrition, I feel you should start at the beginning and go from there. The very best forage you can find and plenty of it is the first place to start, followed by a good digestive supplement, if the digestive system is compromised, finally more concentrate in the form of good starch and good fat. That will take care of 99% of all horses. The other 1% have a medical problem of sorts that needs to be diagnosed by a vet. That in a nutshell is how I view nutrition and feeding health.
That's a whole other issue of it's own, lol We have some of the most wonderful vets anywhere in our area of Oklahoma, but they are of minimal use when it comes to nutritional issues. I actually haven't run across a vet that's interested much at all in equine nutrition. It's only through independent research and speaking with veterinary toxicologists that I found some clues as to what I needed to do to get my horses back on track and healthy again.
How many people do you know that actually think to give a horse probiotics during times of illness or stress, especially when they're being given antibiotics? I know I never knew how incredibly important it was until now....I've even cleaned up my own diet a little and started taking probiotics myself! ...and guess what, I don't have nearly as many digestive issues and I rarely ever have to take my ulcer meds anymore. I've had stomach problems my whole life and I've never had a doctor suggest probiotics...only drugs to reduce the discomfort of the ulcer flareups. | |
| | |
Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | 100 % agree! Vets are the last place to look. If you follow the outline and order I laid out, and your horse cannot gain weight or look good.... You need a vet because, either your horse has a disease, or has been poisoned somehow.
Bottom line, that horse looks pretty good and unless he has been exposed to some contaminated feed, like you described to me Rachel, it just needs more calories. It looks good, just a bit thin. I would bet that 5 more pounds of good alfalfa, would fix it right up. There is no supplement in the world that can fix low quality hay or not enough calories in the diet. Doesn't PP have digestive aids in it?
Edited by Tdove 2015-07-14 10:54 AM
| |
| | |
Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Tdove - 2015-07-14 10:53 AM 100 % agree! Vets are the last place to look. If you follow the outline and order I laid out, and your horse cannot gain weight or look good.... You need a vet because, either your horse has a disease, or has been poisoned somehow. Bottom line, that horse looks pretty good and unless he has been exposed to some contaminated feed, like you described to me Rachel, it just needs more calories. It looks good, just a bit thin. I would bet that 5 more pounds of good alfalfa, would fix it right up. There is no supplement in the world that can fix low quality hay or not enough calories in the diet. Doesn't PP have digestive aids in it?
The CJ formula seems to be more about Joints than digestion...I've been reading over the analysis and it's not directly aimed at digestion. That's why I suggested a probiotic.
I've found that since we've eliminated all of the "extras" that are thrown into most commercially produced feeds that we don't have the body soreness and inflammation that leads you to think that you need all of these supplements. We've always found something on our performance horses that needed an injection, but the past two trips to the vet have been totally clear of soreness. With all that we've been through this year I've still been taking them in regularly to check them over and see how they're coming back...and have been very pleased to see that they feel as good as they look. | |
| | |
Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Excellent advice! We inherited of broodmares that had been starved down a bit and with not enough protein provided. We changed their hay over to some really good stuff and added Equipride. For about a month or so they went to town on the Equipride and then leveled off. They soon looked great and I certainly feel 1) that they needed it to properly digest the great forage they were now getting and 2) That it really helped!
Stress of hauling and poor feed conversion go hand in hand! | |
| | |
 Expert
Posts: 2013
Location: Piedmont, OK | Nothing works better to fill out a topline than Animal Element Foundation Detox! | |
| |
|