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boon
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| How many of you feed your barrel horse sweet feed. those that are against it I would like to know why. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
  
Location: Phoenix | I do not. My horse does not need sugar/starch. He is like a 5 year old.....kids don't need candy!!
Edited by hammer_time 2015-07-13 1:20 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Sugar is just as hard on horse teeth as it is on ours. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Most feed is sweet to some extent. Taste it.. I taste everything I feed my horses. |
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  A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Depends on your definition of sweet feed.
I wouldn't consider every textured feed a sweet feed. There are textured feeds out there that are quality feeds, like Triple Crown Complete and Senior. I would even say Purina Ultium is a decent textured feed.
I would class Purinas Omolenes as sweet feeds given their outrageous starch contents (over the 30% content) and low overall nutrition. They have low fat and low fiber with way too much sugar. You're pretty much feeding empty calories. A candy bar more or less. Personally anything over 23% NSC and I'm calling it a sweet feed.
I feed a locally milled textured Senior feed that is a lot like Triple Crowns Senior and Complete. It's a 10% fat, 16% fiber beet pulp based feed but since it has oats and barley (NO corn) it's considered textured. It has 21% starch.
I fed a 12% fat, 12% protein (25% NSC) sweet feed for awhile just to my one gelding and I thought it was alright. He had extra energy on it which is what I wanted. But it turned out it aggravated his stomach a bit to a went back to the Senior and he's been fine ever since.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | Sweet feed (anything with a lot of starch and molasses) is terrible for horses!!! It causes lactic acid to build up in the muscles, the gut does not digest properly, its hard on their stomach and can make ulcers worse, gives them a "sugar high." They are also more prone to colic, the bad kind requiring surgery and mild gas colic. Basically, there are no benefits what so ever to feeding anything with molasses in it. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | I consider feeds labeled sweet feed and those with high sugar and carbs to be sweet feed. Just like sugar and carbs are bad for people, they are for horses. Sugar and carbs cause blood sugar spikes, weight gain, flighty/hyper energetic behavior, metabolic issues, inflammation, and more. Sure you can feed a horse sweet feed, just as you could survive off ice cream and popcorn. Neither of you will be in optimal health though. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | The main reason that I don't like sweet feed is that molasses is very simple sugar that the horse doesn't need and it provides no real nutritional value. The molasses adds to the rate of consumption and decreases chew time, both things that are not good with a high sugar/high grain feed. Also, is that it will bind things in the feed and make it hard to determine if there is any quality issues. It goes bad fast. In the summer it is a fly magnet and in the winter can be a block of rock.
Lastly, the reason that sweet feeds are not preferable is that the quality of ingredients is usually or almost always inferior to the whole grains. There is a vast difference in the nutrition and energy of top of the line, heavy grains and lighter weight economy grain. The good stuff is sold as is and the lesser stuff gets mixed into textured sweet feeds. |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | They don't need it. I just feed mine beet pulp and alfalfa pellets. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
Location: Lost in the swamps | Ulcers -sugars,corn,oats aren't good for ulcer prone horses.
and the heat and humidity. I'm in the south and pellets keep longer. It got to where if buy 2 bags, by the time I would get 1/2 way into the 2 nd bag the bottom was starting to mold! |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | I switched to low starch pellets for everything I have. Sweet feed to me is nothing but sugar. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | I feel like garbage if I eat sugar (and yet my quitting it is always temporary).
Why would it be good for a horse? In my opinion, it is poison to all of us. I can control it for my horses. Try a good, soybean based ration balancer and you'll be amazed at the difference. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | You have to be smart though. Just because it's a pelleted feed doesn't mean it's low starch. SafeChoice has more starch than the Senior feed I feed that is considered 'textured' with oats and barley.
Pellets can be just as bad in some instances. Have to read the ingredients before you make a real decision one way or the other. |
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Tdove - 2015-07-13 10:24 AM
The main reason that I don't like sweet feed is that molasses is very simple sugar that the horse doesn't need and it provides no real nutritional value. The molasses adds to the rate of consumption and decreases chew time, both things that are not good with a high sugar/high grain feed. Also, is that it will bind things in the feed and make it hard to determine if there is any quality issues. It goes bad fast. In the summer it is a fly magnet and in the winter can be a block of rock.
Lastly, the reason that sweet feeds are not preferable is that the quality of ingredients is usually or almost always inferior to the whole grains. There is a vast difference in the nutrition and energy of top of the line, heavy grains and lighter weight economy grain. The good stuff is sold as is and the lesser stuff gets mixed into textured sweet feeds.
Molasses isn't usually what makes a sweet feed overly. Pretty much every feed, even pelleted, have molasses in it.
It's the over abundance of ALL the sugars and starches combined that make a sweet feed overly sweet. Corn has WAY more sugar/starch than molasses every dreamed of having. Corn is what pushes most feeds to having over 25-30+% NSC content. Not the molasses. |
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 Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | I feed my horses (three quarter horses, two tennessee walkers, one TB) Purina Omolene 200 & they look & feel fantastic! They're on pasture 24/7 as well so I'm sure that helps but they've never gotten hot on it & they're coats are shiny & healthy. I think it just depends on the horse but I've never had a horse do poorly on it.
Edited by Panther14 2015-07-13 6:58 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality.
Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet.
Edited by Tdove 2015-07-14 8:52 AM
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7622
Location: Dubach, LA | I have my easy keepers on a local sweet feed. They look good and feel good. No performance issues. |
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 Regular
Posts: 63
| Tdove - 2015-07-14 8:50 AM
I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality.
Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet.
I agree. Starch is not always a terrible thing. Think of Michael Phelps and what he eats such as carbs vs what the average overweight person eats. You cant not expect an equine athlete to perform without starch at all.
I have been taught that molasses is a natural electrolyte. Look at a bottle of Gatorade. But my concern that I posted on someone elses post about the supposedly ionophore feed issues is that most molasses companies sell medicated liquid feed. And most on here say the only safe feed is at a mill with no inonphores. But these ionophore free mills buy molasses from the same providers. You can not then say that your feed is free when you outside source a product that you can not guarantee is safe. Yes they may say it is but the argument on here for the last six months is human error and the only safe feed is no medication on site. So that alone is why I would not feed any feed with molasses. Even alfalfa cubes and pellets and most pelleted feed has molasses as the binder. |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | ZR, this is exactly what I have been trying to tell my friends. While I am not anti molasses, in the light of the ionophore issues, I dont think there is any safe place to buy it and add to feeds from these facilities that claim to be ionophore free. And also many of these places use minerals to add to their feed from places that make medicated cow mineral. So again you are bringing in comtaminated product and adding it to your feed. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | A lot of feeds do use molasses, but sweet feeds use quite a bit more. The less molasses the better, for my taste. Electrolytes are salt, calcium, magnesium, potassium, and zinc, not sugar. A horse only needs starch to replenish glycogen stores and for fast twitch muscle response. Also, too much fat in today's diets.
I am not aware of any alfalfa cubes that use molasses as a binder. While both of your points on ionophore free are very valid, our cubes are ionophore free because we don't use molasses or added minerals, or any products that come from places that process feeds with ionophore present.
Edited by Tdove 2015-07-14 10:23 AM
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Tdove - 2015-07-14 10:19 AM A lot of feeds do use molasses, but sweet feeds use quite a bit more. The less molasses the better, for my taste. Electrolytes are salt, calcium, magnesium, potassium, and zinc, not sugar. A horse only needs starch to replenish glycogen stores and for fast twitch muscle response. Also, too much fat in today's diets. I am not aware of any alfalfa cubes that use molasses as a binder. While both of your points on ionophore free are very valid, our cubes are ionophore free because we don't use molasses or added minerals, or any products that come from places that process feeds with ionophore present.
Omnis Complete Performance Cubes are the only thing that I feel truly safe feeding anymore. We are still feeding a small amount of Bluebonnet Omega Force to our horses, but I'm not convinced that it's necessary. Slowly but surely I want them off all commercial feeds if possible.
I've read about the benefits of flax for years, but never had tried it until now....Wow, what a difference! I have a mare that has always had a long pretty mane, but it's grown a few inches since she has been on the cubes.
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | I guess I am lost on what you are calling sweet feed then? I thought people were saying any feed with molasses is sweet? Molasses itself isnt bad in moderation, IMO but I just dont know of a safe source? Just for comparison, recent laboratory assays of a range of good grass and alfalfa hays showed that they contained from 5.8% to 12.1% sugar, respectively. Fresh pasture is even higher in sugar content. Therefore, the amount of sugar provided from molasses in a pound normal sweet feed is lower than the amount of sugar consumed in a pound of good hay and/or pasture. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 825
| I'm a bad horse owner lol I'm not as educated on feed as y'all are. I feed mine a mixture of a sweet and pelleted feed that is milled a few hours from here. Mine look great, feel great, and run good with no performance issues. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | We have an outside horse here and they feed him a 14% sweet feed and alfalfa pellets. He looks and rides just like my horses. Can't tell a difference. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | rachellyn80 - 2015-07-14 10:35 AM Tdove - 2015-07-14 10:19 AM A lot of feeds do use molasses, but sweet feeds use quite a bit more. The less molasses the better, for my taste. Electrolytes are salt, calcium, magnesium, potassium, and zinc, not sugar. A horse only needs starch to replenish glycogen stores and for fast twitch muscle response. Also, too much fat in today's diets. I am not aware of any alfalfa cubes that use molasses as a binder. While both of your points on ionophore free are very valid, our cubes are ionophore free because we don't use molasses or added minerals, or any products that come from places that process feeds with ionophore present. Omnis Complete Performance Cubes are the only thing that I feel truly safe feeding anymore. We are still feeding a small amount of Bluebonnet Omega Force to our horses, but I'm not convinced that it's necessary. Slowly but surely I want them off all commercial feeds if possible.
I've read about the benefits of flax for years, but never had tried it until now....Wow, what a difference! I have a mare that has always had a long pretty mane, but it's grown a few inches since she has been on the cubes.
Holy sheetcake that is a long mane! I wish so badly that someone would start carrying those here!
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-07-14 1:35 PM
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Tdove - 2015-07-14 9:50 AM
I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality.
Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet.
Hence why I said corn is what pushes the entire feed to have a combined nsc content over 30-40%
A little starch isn't a bad thing, no. Keeping it around 20% is safe for most horses I would think. You have to be mindful of the ones who are sensitive to starch with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. But mine have done fine around that range for the most part. They're also turned out 24/7. I don't think feeding a good bit of starch and stalling would turn out well. It would kill a horses digestive tract.
But when you get into these cheap sweet feeds that have 25+% with some having more than 30 even 40% overall nsc content, THAT is excessive and ridiculous. That's feeding straight candy and empty calories. Especially when it's usually a low fat low fiber. Empty junk calories. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | hlynn - 2015-07-14 1:21 PM Tdove - 2015-07-14 9:50 AM I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality. Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet. Hence why I said corn is what pushes the entire feed to have a combined nsc content over 30-40% A little starch isn't a bad thing, no. Keeping it around 20% is safe for most horses I would think. You have to be mindful of the ones who are sensitive to starch with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. But mine have done fine around that range for the most part. They're also turned out 24/7. I don't think feeding a good bit of starch and stalling would turn out well. It would kill a horses digestive tract. But when you get into these cheap sweet feeds that have 25+% with some having more than 30 even 40% overall nsc content, THAT is excessive and ridiculous. That's feeding straight candy and empty calories. Especially when it's usually a low fat low fiber. Empty junk calories.
I could give you a couple of big name owners, breeders and trainers that feed straight oats to stalled horses and they are at the top of our industry leader board. I think even Amy Laymon who is as all natural as one would try to be, feeds a cobb mix to stalled horses. It has been done for years. My guess is those exceed your desired starch number? Like Tdove mentioned, fat was the hot button issue and starch comes and goes these days. I too, think people focus on too much fat in their horses diet. JMO.
We LOVE the OMNI cube btw.
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | TurnLane - 2015-07-14 4:03 PM
hlynn - 2015-07-14 1:21 PM Tdove - 2015-07-14 9:50 AM I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality. Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet. Hence why I said corn is what pushes the entire feed to have a combined nsc content over 30-40% A little starch isn't a bad thing, no. Keeping it around 20% is safe for most horses I would think. You have to be mindful of the ones who are sensitive to starch with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. But mine have done fine around that range for the most part. They're also turned out 24/7. I don't think feeding a good bit of starch and stalling would turn out well. It would kill a horses digestive tract. But when you get into these cheap sweet feeds that have 25+% with some having more than 30 even 40% overall nsc content, THAT is excessive and ridiculous. That's feeding straight candy and empty calories. Especially when it's usually a low fat low fiber. Empty junk calories.
We LOVE the OMNI cube btw.
That's great. Snaps for them. I'm not spending $15,000 on a single prospect every spring or $50,000 on a finished horse to haul up and down the road. I'm a weekend warrior with average horses and mine are outside 24/7. They stay fat healthy and happy on 6lbs a day of what I choose to feed them. And as much hay as they will eat.
Fat is extremely important in a performance horses diet. That's where the horse gets most of it's daily fuel from. How do we leg a horse up? A lot of long trotting and loping. FAT is the fuel for all of that work. Carbs only come into play for anaerobic excercise and that's only happening once a week. That's it. 99% of what a horse does is powered by fat, not carbs. So no, a normal performance horse doesn't need an excessive amount of carbs. All those carbs do is get turned into sugar and can cause trouble in the horses gut. Horses were designed to be grazers. They utilize fiber best. Not starch. Cereal grains may be 'all natural' but that doesn't mean they were solely meant to be fed to horses. You have to have a balance.
It's basic biology. |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | hlynn - 2015-07-14 3:24 PM TurnLane - 2015-07-14 4:03 PM hlynn - 2015-07-14 1:21 PM Tdove - 2015-07-14 9:50 AM I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality. Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet. Hence why I said corn is what pushes the entire feed to have a combined nsc content over 30-40% A little starch isn't a bad thing, no. Keeping it around 20% is safe for most horses I would think. You have to be mindful of the ones who are sensitive to starch with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. But mine have done fine around that range for the most part. They're also turned out 24/7. I don't think feeding a good bit of starch and stalling would turn out well. It would kill a horses digestive tract. But when you get into these cheap sweet feeds that have 25+% with some having more than 30 even 40% overall nsc content, THAT is excessive and ridiculous. That's feeding straight candy and empty calories. Especially when it's usually a low fat low fiber. Empty junk calories.
We LOVE the OMNI cube btw.
That's great. Snaps for them. I'm not spending $15,000 on a single prospect every spring or $50,000 on a finished horse to haul up and down the road. I'm a weekend warrior with average horses and mine are outside 24/7. They stay fat healthy and happy on 6lbs a day of what I choose to feed them. And as much hay as they will eat. Fat is extremely important in a performance horses diet. That's where the horse gets most of it's daily fuel from. How do we leg a horse up? A lot of long trotting and loping. FAT is the fuel for all of that work. Carbs only come into play for anaerobic excercise and that's only happening once a week. That's it. 99% of what a horse does is powered by fat, not carbs. So no, a normal performance horse doesn't need an excessive amount of carbs. All those carbs do is get turned into sugar and can cause trouble in the horses gut. Horses were designed to be grazers. They utilize fiber best. Not starch. Cereal grains may be 'all natural' but that doesn't mean they were solely meant to be fed to horses. You have to have a balance. It's basic biology.
I am just saying, some of the biggest names in our industry say differntly. All oats and big wins. Thats all :) Not arguing, just stating facts. I know biology says one thing to support your preference but when I see industry leaders doing it, I tend to believe their results.  |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | And btw, I was quoting Tdove who said too much fat and I think she/he seems very educated on the fact. I was just agreeing with them. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | hlynn - 2015-07-14 3:24 PM
TurnLane - 2015-07-14 4:03 PM
hlynn - 2015-07-14 1:21 PM Tdove - 2015-07-14 9:50 AM I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality. Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet. Hence why I said corn is what pushes the entire feed to have a combined nsc content over 30-40% A little starch isn't a bad thing, no. Keeping it around 20% is safe for most horses I would think. You have to be mindful of the ones who are sensitive to starch with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. But mine have done fine around that range for the most part. They're also turned out 24/7. I don't think feeding a good bit of starch and stalling would turn out well. It would kill a horses digestive tract. But when you get into these cheap sweet feeds that have 25+% with some having more than 30 even 40% overall nsc content, THAT is excessive and ridiculous. That's feeding straight candy and empty calories. Especially when it's usually a low fat low fiber. Empty junk calories.
We LOVE the OMNI cube btw.
That's great. Snaps for them. I'm not spending $15,000 on a single prospect every spring or $50,000 on a finished horse to haul up and down the road. I'm a weekend warrior with average horses and mine are outside 24/7. They stay fat healthy and happy on 6lbs a day of what I choose to feed them. And as much hay as they will eat.
Fat is extremely important in a performance horses diet. That's where the horse gets most of it's daily fuel from. How do we leg a horse up? A lot of long trotting and loping. FAT is the fuel for all of that work. Carbs only come into play for anaerobic excercise and that's only happening once a week. That's it. 99% of what a horse does is powered by fat, not carbs. So no, a normal performance horse doesn't need an excessive amount of carbs. All those carbs do is get turned into sugar and can cause trouble in the horses gut. Horses were designed to be grazers. They utilize fiber best. Not starch. Cereal grains may be 'all natural' but that doesn't mean they were solely meant to be fed to horses. You have to have a balance.
It's basic biology.
carbohydrates are definitely used for anaerobic lactic acid fermentation through glycolysis that makes pyruvate. But it also definitely is used in cellular respiration. The difference is theres many different steps in cellular respiration which is why other nutrients like fatty acids and amino acids can be funneled into the krebs cycle and then oxidative phosphorylation.
Honestly, you can't ignore any part of a horse's nutrition. Horses need adequate amounts of fat, protein, carbohydrates, and vitamins and minerals. Excess carbohydrates are converted to fat... so it becomes fat either way.
I mostly concern myself with the protein to fat ratio, and then Ca:P. That's the two biggies when I look at the normal, average, perfectly capable of storing complex carbohydrates animal. When I have one that can't metabolize carbohydrates normally, then I start looking at low carb sources of feed. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Casualdust, could you explain the protein/fat ratio? I am trying to learn about feeding my guys the best I can afford. This is the first I have heard of such a ratio and I would love it if you have time to educate me on this. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Nutrition wasn't my favorite subject but let me dig up my notes and see what I've got.
For my performance horses I like a 14:6 protein to fat.. also with my broodmares. Some people have found 14:8 in some brands. I'll come back with info |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | This is a topic that is kind of like Hillary Clinton. It does not matter what you say on either side of this discussion, those who like sweet feed, and sometimes a lot of sweet feed, are not going to change their mind, no matter what information comes out. Those who hate it and do not care if someone else has fed it and reports no problems, aren't changing their minds either. A few in the middle might be swayed by either side. I have talked at length about limiting starches and sugars in the diet to the amount that will fit the physical form of the digestive system, and, in the case of the grain based sweet feed, be digested in the small intestine. Any sweet feed that travels beyond that is disruptive to hind gut efficiency. There can be other issues when fed at more than several pounds beyond it's effect on properly digesting the roughage portion of the diet. These include attitude issues, and colic risk at higher feed rates. There is also more internal body heat generated by the digestive process of sweet feed. This time of year, that can be a bad thing in many parts of the country. The comment about pour quality ingredients used in sweet feed is basically true. Many companies will buy lower quality grain since it will be covered up with molasses and the damage is not easy to see. These products are made to sell at a low price point, so lower cost ingredients are important to the manufacturer. In general, I feel sweet feed is a poor use of your feed dollar for what you get. Considering the fact that I brought the first higher fat, low starch commercial feed to equine market in the 1980's, (Natural Glo), you should expect this to be the side that I would take in this discussion. But then, I am one of those who will not be voting for Hillary.
Edited by winwillows 2015-07-14 4:06 PM
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Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | casualdust07 - 2015-07-14 4:03 PM Nutrition wasn't my favorite subject but let me dig up my notes and see what I've got. For my performance horses I like a 14:6 protein to fat.. also with my broodmares. Some people have found 14:8 in some brands. I'll come back with info
Beyond the ratio of the concentrates, what ratio is your feed as a whole when you include forage? That's what you have to consider...and is usually what throws people off when they're feeding concentrates that are meant to be fed as a complete feed, such as Sr formulas. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | From my nutrition course as far as growing horses, like yearlings, are concerned my prof suggests feeding a
14% balanced ration at a rate of 1-1.5% body weight. He says to caution adding fat to balanced diets to growing horses because fat can dilute and change the nutrient to calorie ratio and dilute minerals. He is more of a- feed a balanced ration and don't add things to it because then you don't know what you're giving too much of and what you're giving too little of.
alright in talking about performance horses:
he says muscle glycogen stores are a key factor in performance. cool info point- it takes 48 hours to completely replenish spent glycogen stores. by improving diet and exercise you can improve their capacity to store glycogen (in the normal horse without glycogen storage problems).
high starch diets have higher resting glycogen stores than low starch diets (which is the point in low starch diets so that horses who have glycogen storage problems won't have so much glycogen in their muscles)
but do you remember, a pound of fat has 2.25X more energy than a pound of carbs. Which means, you can get a glycogen storing effect by feeding performance horses a high fat diet. you get more energy for less pounds of feed. .44lb of fat gives you the same energy as 1lb of carbs. high fat diets also allow horses to exercise longer periods before fatigue. you can also feed high fat diets to get more energy without the risk of carbohydrate overload.
This professor was not big on "high fiber, fat supplemented low carb" feeds for hard work. He says they don't provide a substrate for glycogen sparing, that beet pulp diets don't provide enough carbohydrates for energy, that its a good general herd feed, and is a good feed to use to combat feeding mismanagement problems. Just take that for whatever it is, I know everyone has different opinions on the subject.
This was a range of what he wanted to see in feeds:
Crude Protein (min) 10 to 16%
? Lysine (min) 0.65 to 0.75% for weanlings
? Crude Fat (min) 2.5 TO 10%
? Crude Fiber (max) 5 TO 25%
so thats a lot of variation.
Again.. nutrition isn't my favorite subject.
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | rachellyn80 - 2015-07-14 4:24 PM
casualdust07 - 2015-07-14 4:03 PM Nutrition wasn't my favorite subject but let me dig up my notes and see what I've got. For my performance horses I like a 14:6 protein to fat.. also with my broodmares. Some people have found 14:8 in some brands. I'll come back with info
Beyond the ratio of the concentrates, what ratio is your feed as a whole when you include forage? That's what you have to consider...and is usually what throws people off when they're feeding concentrates that are meant to be fed as a complete feed, such as Sr formulas.
Right. This is where confusion comes in. Nutritional balance is about the total contribution of nutrients, and the actual ability of the horse to use them. Feeding a concentrate that is 14% protein and 6% fat is of little concern if you feed one pound per day. It well be totally inappropriate if you feed 14 pounds per day. Protein is important for tissue repair and a number of other functions but is a poor source of energy when compared to fats. Fats are the ultimate glycogen sparing tool when supplied in the proper form. Total protein needs for a performance mature horse, if of good quality, is around 12% for the whole diet. In most areas, the majority of this is easily met with hay. Additional energy required is better provided by a combination of usable starch, also mostly met in most hay, and additional fats. Many people don't understand that most hay is around 1.5% fat. As such, this is a natural energy source for horses that their body easily processes. Added vegetable fat, in it's natural form, not refined oil, is very easily digested and does not disrupt other natural digestive functions once the system is accustomed to it. The result is that less concentrate can be used. The benefit of that is a system that actually digests that lower amount of concentrate to the horses benefit in the small intestine, rather than digesting it in the hind gut where that process is done at the expense of proper digestion of the roughage. Don't focus on what the protein levels of your concentrate is without calculating its impact on the total diet numbers based on how much you are feeding. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 679
Location: KS | Panther14 - 2015-07-13 5:56 PM
I feed my horses (three quarter horses, two tennessee walkers, one TB) Purina Omolene 200 & they look & feel fantastic! They're on pasture 24/7 as well so I'm sure that helps but they've never gotten hot on it & they're coats are shiny & healthy. I think it just depends on the horse but I've never had a horse do poorly on it.
That's what I have my mares on. They're also on pasture 24/7. I have never had a problem with it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I like about 15% total protein and 2.5-4% total fat in the diet. About 20-25% starch in the total ration is beneficial to horses in work. This is my preference. I have found that slowed consumption of whole oats to be an excellent starch form. I believe in the majority of calories to come from high protein hay, at least 14%.
I do believe in added fat, just not too much. I prefer less fat that too much. I have fed straight alfalfa diet with no grain or added fat. It is hard to beat that in and of itself.
There are differing thoughts and no real right or wrong. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | TurnLane - 2015-07-14 3:34 PM
hlynn - 2015-07-14 3:24 PM TurnLane - 2015-07-14 4:03 PM hlynn - 2015-07-14 1:21 PM Tdove - 2015-07-14 9:50 AM I didn't say molasses is the main contributor to NSC content. I stated reasons why I don't like sweet feed over straight cereal grains, molasses being one of the major reasons. The other being the cereal grains in sweet feeds are lesser quality. Also, it isn't NSC content of your grain that matters, its NSC content of the total ration. You could feed 3 bs of 50% NSC with 17lbs of alfalfa or you could feed 10 lbs of 20% NSC with 10 lbs of grass hay. Both total rations would yield approximately 3.2 lbs of sugar or have a total NSC of 16% in your total ration. I would highly argue that the former ration is the better one. Low starch is the in thing right now, but many barrel racers would see better performance if they added a little whole starch to their horse's diet. Hence why I said corn is what pushes the entire feed to have a combined nsc content over 30-40% A little starch isn't a bad thing, no. Keeping it around 20% is safe for most horses I would think. You have to be mindful of the ones who are sensitive to starch with ulcers, PSSM and other issues. But mine have done fine around that range for the most part. They're also turned out 24/7. I don't think feeding a good bit of starch and stalling would turn out well. It would kill a horses digestive tract. But when you get into these cheap sweet feeds that have 25+% with some having more than 30 even 40% overall nsc content, THAT is excessive and ridiculous. That's feeding straight candy and empty calories. Especially when it's usually a low fat low fiber. Empty junk calories.
We LOVE the OMNI cube btw.
That's great. Snaps for them. I'm not spending $15,000 on a single prospect every spring or $50,000 on a finished horse to haul up and down the road. I'm a weekend warrior with average horses and mine are outside 24/7. They stay fat healthy and happy on 6lbs a day of what I choose to feed them. And as much hay as they will eat. Fat is extremely important in a performance horses diet. That's where the horse gets most of it's daily fuel from. How do we leg a horse up? A lot of long trotting and loping. FAT is the fuel for all of that work. Carbs only come into play for anaerobic excercise and that's only happening once a week. That's it. 99% of what a horse does is powered by fat, not carbs. So no, a normal performance horse doesn't need an excessive amount of carbs. All those carbs do is get turned into sugar and can cause trouble in the horses gut. Horses were designed to be grazers. They utilize fiber best. Not starch. Cereal grains may be 'all natural' but that doesn't mean they were solely meant to be fed to horses. You have to have a balance. It's basic biology.
I don't think oats get enough credit. In the past, I didn't like them because my first horse went crazy when she got them. But after some more recent research, they really aren't bad. I don't feed JUST oats, but whole oats are a decent source of fuel, better than many processed feeds. When I was growing up on the backside of a racetrack, horses ate oats with some various supplements. Many of the horses I've met who's grain rations are made largely of oats look fabulous and aren't crazy. My beef is with corn it has *no* benefits over other grains and actually promotes inflammation. I don't have much of an opinion of barley either way.
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-07-14 8:32 PM
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