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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 302
Location: W. Pa. | Just looking down through posts on BHW got me thinking about the "evolution" of the running quarter horse. We have been basically destroying the breed. There are so many gimmicks and meds used to keep our horses sound. How about breeding a running quarter horse that is not going to require all this maintenance. We have diluted the quarter horse with so much TB blood that there is very little Quarter Horse left on their papers. | |
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 Midget Lover
    
Location: Kentucky | I can't say I agree with this. Horses are stronger and faster now than they ever have been (look at NFR times from 5 years ago to now). Maintenance and modern medicine helped that. Horses are also living much longer now, it's nothing to see 20 year olds running and staying competitive. I don't believe that we are "breeding the longevity out of them" at all. If anything the supplements, medicines, and special care is making them live longer and healthier lives. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | The more talented a horse is, the faster they run and the harder they turn, the more they tear themselves up. Just like human athletes, athletic individuals with a athletically demanding "career" are more prone to injury. Slow footed horses riding the fenceline and checking cows in a pasture can go forever without injury because they simply are not putting the stress on their bodies that barrel horses are.
I came back to add......I dated a track vet for a couple years. One day when I was with him doing calls, one of his clients asked him "what can I do to keep my horse sound and keep him from getting hurt?" He looked at her, and said "Put him in a groomed pasture and never take him out to ride or work." That pretty much sums it up.
Edited by ThreeCorners 2015-07-18 8:07 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1314
Location: North Central Iowa Land of white frozen grass | We don't breed humans to be athletes. But we do geneticly breed horses for a specific purpose. By useing all the aids for them we are some what masking the shortfalls of some of the lines. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | I'm going to disagree as well. If you want to look at destruction of a breed, look at halter horses. Aside from them, most horses are living longer, healthier lives. Horses that work hard and do a job like barrel racing that is very strenuous are going to hurt themselves and wear their bodies out. It is inevitable. You can't breed that out. The reason it "seems" like they're weaker and need special diets, supplements, tack, therapies, injections, etc is because we KNOW more. Back in the day people just didn't have technology we do now. If a horse was doing something wrong it got rode harder, bigger bit, etc. rather than go through and find out what's wrong with it, mostly because they didn't have the same medical equipment to find and maintain issues.
ETA-there are still management issues that would help horses significantly if they were fixed. One example is the tendency for people to start horses young. I do not believe in riding a horse at all until it has turned 3. Doing more than sitting on their back a time or two in their 2 year old year can (not always) cause some of the joint issues we see down the road.
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-07-18 10:49 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1314
Location: North Central Iowa Land of white frozen grass | Cavy I agree what you have said, But I think at the pace that we are on that someday we are going to breed a super barrel horse that will be all used up by the time it is 10 or 12. And we will all think that this is accecptalble in the name of pro barrel racing. Can we stop this. Probably not. Right now all the breeders are looking for is speed and good minds. What sells is wins and blood lines that have a lot of wins. Not the value of them after they don't win any more | |
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 Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | Instead of pointing fingers at breeders and bloodlines, which I disagree with, take a long hard look at futurities. I have nothing against futurities in the sense that if I had a capable horse I would haul to them. However, the money has changed the industry. 20 plus years ago there was no real need to rush young horses into a barrel career. Now there is.
And I still do this day believe the halter horses have ruined the breed WAY more then TBs. Way more......
And when you say breeders...I hope you are including mare owners. There are hundreds of stallions offered for stud, many of which have no business reproducing, so it's up to mare owners to make an educated decision on which stallions to choose and which mares should be bred. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I disagree with your thinking and this is why.
More hours in the trailer, vets are now saying the time in the trailer is detrimental to the bursa sac around the joints, this is due to the vibration in the trailer. (I would like to see research comparing steel versus aluminum and aluminum floors versus plastic, and wood)
More runs on a horse
Different ground conditions
Conditioning programs, years ago horses would be used on the ranch all day and barrel race on the weekend, now there are so many weekend riders. I have seen on this forum that people haven't rode their horse in 2 months but run it at a jackpot and wondering why the horse is sore.
Horrible farriers, I have heard dash ta Fames have horrible feet, I seen a few that came up from the states whose feet are so contracted, this doesn't happen overnight, not genetic, all due to improper shoeing, and poor farriers. Also on this forum I have seen horrible feet that make me cringe and feel sorry for the horse.
Improper fitting saddles and owners oblivious to it years ago there was one build or riding horse therefore one saddle would fit all, we have now bred all shapes and sizes of horses and now one saddle won't fit all
Inexperienced owners who can't tell if their horse is sore until they are packing a leg, and generally from a reason from this list.
Futurities, the big futurity trainers are looking at here and now there are 3 yr old and 4 yr old futurities, I would really like to see these disappear and only have 5 yr old. A 3 yr old may not have growth plates fused therefore will have injuries later. I do believe some, not all, of these trainers think these horses are disposable, I remember reading on here one futurity trainer killed a horse at an event as it wasn't ready. (She told her husband to make the horse sore or something along that line and her husband ended up killing the horse). To me these people should be banned.
Drugs, there are so many people running horses on dex, instead of going to a vet for inflammation, they give dex to get that one more run. There are so many different cocktails you get the drift.
Vets, not all vets or machines are created equal, I had one horse who had a spiral fracture of the cannon bone, the first vet I went to passed him on the vet check, said he was safe to ride. Next day different vet showed me the X-rays (2 different machines, 2 different vets remember this) and he told me the next 3 days my horses leg may snap off, if I would have listened to the first vet the horse and possibly myself would be dead.
Nutrition, I learned this just a few years ago and this is the reason I will not rescue a starved foal, if horses have inadequate nutrition before the age of two will have long term effects. The long term effects are increased chance of arthritis, and at an earlier age, also decreased bone density.
Also if the foal is over fed they can develop ephisysis (sorry sp) and cause joint issues later on.
Growth hormones, I learned this last year, breeders especially who race will start injecting the colts with growth hormones so they have a bigger horse at the age of 2 when they reach the track, I haven't read anywhere that this is a positive thing for horses, not sure how many breeders do this in the barrel world
Point is it isn't genetics, horses that are breaking down is because of man made issues.
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 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| For the sake of argument: I disagree and agree and the only reason part of me agrees is that I watched an interview of a really well known futurity trainer/ridder that she quoted "I used to buy horses on conformation but as the years go on papers are proving to be more consistent so now I'm ok with horses have if some flaws" I also sold a 2 year old mare that was almost crippled to a breeder of not so cheap horses who planned on breeding her as a 3 year old who I upfront said she probably wasn't breeding material .(but had steller papers).. Next year she is expecting a letta hank do it baby .... So what do I know
Edited by Thistle2011 2015-07-19 4:55 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | If anything, horses have a longer career as compared to years ago.
How many horses ran into their 20s "back in the day?" | |
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 Regular
Posts: 76
Location: North Carolina | As others have said the halter horses are doing WAY more damage then TB's. Also not all barrel type lines have alot of TB in them, some not at all. | |
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 Over Informed
Posts: 5372
Location: West Tennessee | I'm no pedigree or breeding expert but specialization and a lack of TB speed
Has been more damaging to the QH than the use of TB genetics.
Study the pedigrees of the great QHs of the past, the supreme champions and you'll find a very healthy dose of TB. Three Bars comes to mind immediately.
The QH was bred for short burst of speed and that's been all but bred out thru specialization within the industry due to Halter, Reining & cutting.
I hate to disagree with someone so absolutely but in my humble opinion attitudes like yours within the industry is what has changed the QH for the worst. AQHA even changed pedigrees of TBs to hide their contribution to breed. Do a little research on Peter McCue, for example | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| cheryl makofka - 2015-07-18 8:16 PM
I disagree with your thinking and this is why.
More hours in the trailer, vets are now saying the time in the trailer is detrimental to the bursa sac around the joints, this is due to the vibration in the trailer. (I would like to see research comparing steel versus aluminum and aluminum floors versus plastic, and wood)
More runs on a horse
Different ground conditions
Conditioning programs, years ago horses would be used on the ranch all day and barrel race on the weekend, now there are so many weekend riders. I have seen on this forum that people haven't rode their horse in 2 months but run it at a jackpot and wondering why the horse is sore.
Horrible farriers, I have heard dash ta Fames have horrible feet, I seen a few that came up from the states whose feet are so contracted, this doesn't happen overnight, not genetic, all due to improper shoeing, and poor farriers. Also on this forum I have seen horrible feet that make me cringe and feel sorry for the horse.
Improper fitting saddles and owners oblivious to it years ago there was one build or riding horse therefore one saddle would fit all, we have now bred all shapes and sizes of horses and now one saddle won't fit all
Inexperienced owners who can't tell if their horse is sore until they are packing a leg, and generally from a reason from this list.
Futurities, the big futurity trainers are looking at here and now there are 3 yr old and 4 yr old futurities, I would really like to see these disappear and only have 5 yr old. A 3 yr old may not have growth plates fused therefore will have injuries later. I do believe some, not all, of these trainers think these horses are disposable, I remember reading on here one futurity trainer killed a horse at an event as it wasn't ready. (She told her husband to make the horse sore or something along that line and her husband ended up killing the horse). To me these people should be banned.
Drugs, there are so many people running horses on dex, instead of going to a vet for inflammation, they give dex to get that one more run. There are so many different cocktails you get the drift.
Vets, not all vets or machines are created equal, I had one horse who had a spiral fracture of the cannon bone, the first vet I went to passed him on the vet check, said he was safe to ride. Next day different vet showed me the X-rays (2 different machines, 2 different vets remember this) and he told me the next 3 days my horses leg may snap off, if I would have listened to the first vet the horse and possibly myself would be dead.
Nutrition, I learned this just a few years ago and this is the reason I will not rescue a starved foal, if horses have inadequate nutrition before the age of two will have long term effects. The long term effects are increased chance of arthritis, and at an earlier age, also decreased bone density.
Also if the foal is over fed they can develop ephisysis (sorry sp) and cause joint issues later on.
Growth hormones, I learned this last year, breeders especially who race will start injecting the colts with growth hormones so they have a bigger horse at the age of 2 when they reach the track, I haven't read anywhere that this is a positive thing for horses, not sure how many breeders do this in the barrel world
Point is it isn't genetics, horses that are breaking down is because of man made issues.
Well said. | |
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 Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24138
Location: Carpenter, WY | I don't necessarily think it's the breeding but a good horse is such a big investment alot of people are afraid to turn them out and just be a horse for fear of injury or something. A horse IMO isn't meant to live in a stall with just a hour or two of turnout time every day and I think it effects their mind and body. I know of people that stall their horse, supplement them like crazy, or pump them up and then wonder why they have behavior problems and then send them down the road for someone else to deal with. I do think that the QH breeding is becomming to event specific for my taste though. I don't agree with supplementing for every thing under the sun either and I think good genetics have alot to do with the longevity of a horses career or how they stand up over time. Now if you're using the horse or making a living off that horse that's a different story. I do have to say that I just can't stand to watch the pleasure horses...it seems like their movement is so unnatural. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1314
Location: North Central Iowa Land of white frozen grass | Well TB are being breed for short term monitary gains. They are becoming a throw away horse. If you are putting a lot of TB in your breeding program that is what you are also getting in your barrel horses. I agree 100% with TeeHaha. | |
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 The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | What Teehaha said.
ALso bone density was mentioned above: Keeping young horses in small pens or stalls with no REAL free exercise over varied terrain isn't doing them any favors in the bone density dept.
It still makes me laugh when I see people going on and on about the "bone" on a horse. The "bone" you can see, has NOTING to do with how dense that bone is. It you look at cannon bone cross sections, often the bones that are smaller around are THICKER. I'm not saying you should breed for pencil legged horses, but breeding for "bigger bone" isn't necessarily going to do what people think either.
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | teehaha - 2015-07-19 12:06 PM
I don't necessarily think it's the breeding but a good horse is such a big investment alot of people are afraid to turn them out and just be a horse for fear of injury or something. A horse IMO isn't meant to live in a stall with just a hour or two of turnout time every day and I think it effects their mind and body. I know of people that stall their horse, supplement them like crazy, or pump them up and then wonder why they have behavior problems and then send them down the road for someone else to deal with. I do think that the QH breeding is becomming to event specific for my taste though. I don't agree with supplementing for every thing under the sun either and I think good genetics have alot to do with the longevity of a horses career or how they stand up over time. Now if you're using the horse or making a living off that horse that's a different story. I do have to say that I just can't stand to watch the pleasure horses...it seems like their movement is so unnatural.
I have some people big into western pleasure at my barn. They have shiny, expensive horses. One day one of them got loose and was "cantering" around. He literally can't canter like a normal horse. His stride is so short if he tries to pick up any speed he has to almost bunny hop. It's extremely sad and disturbing to see. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | teehaha - 2015-07-19 12:06 PM
I don't necessarily think it's the breeding but a good horse is such a big investment alot of people are afraid to turn them out and just be a horse for fear of injury or something. A horse IMO isn't meant to live in a stall with just a hour or two of turnout time every day and I think it effects their mind and body. I know of people that stall their horse, supplement them like crazy, or pump them up and then wonder why they have behavior problems and then send them down the road for someone else to deal with. I do think that the QH breeding is becomming to event specific for my taste though. I don't agree with supplementing for every thing under the sun either and I think good genetics have alot to do with the longevity of a horses career or how they stand up over time. Now if you're using the horse or making a living off that horse that's a different story. I do have to say that I just can't stand to watch the pleasure horses...it seems like their movement is so unnatural.
I have some people big into western pleasure at my barn. They have shiny, expensive horses. One day one of them got loose and was "cantering" around. He literally can't canter like a normal horse. His stride is so short if he tries to pick up any speed he has to almost bunny hop. It's extremely sad and disturbing to see. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | teehaha - 2015-07-19 12:06 PM
I don't necessarily think it's the breeding but a good horse is such a big investment alot of people are afraid to turn them out and just be a horse for fear of injury or something. A horse IMO isn't meant to live in a stall with just a hour or two of turnout time every day and I think it effects their mind and body. I know of people that stall their horse, supplement them like crazy, or pump them up and then wonder why they have behavior problems and then send them down the road for someone else to deal with. I do think that the QH breeding is becomming to event specific for my taste though. I don't agree with supplementing for every thing under the sun either and I think good genetics have alot to do with the longevity of a horses career or how they stand up over time. Now if you're using the horse or making a living off that horse that's a different story. I do have to say that I just can't stand to watch the pleasure horses...it seems like their movement is so unnatural.
I have some people big into western pleasure at my barn. They have shiny, expensive horses. One day one of them got loose and was "cantering" around. He literally can't canter like a normal horse. His stride is so short if he tries to pick up any speed he has to almost bunny hop. It's extremely sad and disturbing to see. | |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I do breed for longevity.
First off- I think plenty of people don't realize how many futurity horses DO continue to run into their teens and run sound. Here's my take. Everyone knows who's running who when its the futurity because you see their reg name, there's no doubt who's running at that race. Once they go on past their derby year, they are usually sold to the people who like to run at the 5Ds or youth rodeos or even they go on to ammy and pro rodeos. It's so much harder to keep up with who is running so and so after he's been sold two plus times. Especially with how a lot of organizations don't require registered names for the local stuff.
Secondly- I think that the horses who really put it all out there run the risk of injury more than those who don't. My mare Bunny runs and turns harder than any horse I have ever been on. She also requires more vet care than any horse I have. But I guarantee if they put as much strain on their bodies when they turn like she does, they would end up sore too. There's been times where I literally hold on for all I've got and think, IDK how she doesn't break a leg around the barrel sometimes.
Third- people are good at screwing things up. Farriers that don't trim feet balanced, saddles that don't fit, riders that don't keep their horses in competition shape and then run every weekend... Misdiagnoses from vets.. it all happens.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
| cheryl makofka - 2015-07-18 8:16 PM I disagree with your thinking and this is why. More hours in the trailer, vets are now saying the time in the trailer is detrimental to the bursa sac around the joints, this is due to the vibration in the trailer. (I would like to see research comparing steel versus aluminum and aluminum floors versus plastic, and wood) More runs on a horse Different ground conditions Conditioning programs, years ago horses would be used on the ranch all day and barrel race on the weekend, now there are so many weekend riders. I have seen on this forum that people haven't rode their horse in 2 months but run it at a jackpot and wondering why the horse is sore. Horrible farriers, I have heard dash ta Fames have horrible feet, I seen a few that came up from the states whose feet are so contracted, this doesn't happen overnight, not genetic, all due to improper shoeing, and poor farriers. Also on this forum I have seen horrible feet that make me cringe and feel sorry for the horse. Improper fitting saddles and owners oblivious to it years ago there was one build or riding horse therefore one saddle would fit all, we have now bred all shapes and sizes of horses and now one saddle won't fit all Inexperienced owners who can't tell if their horse is sore until they are packing a leg, and generally from a reason from this list. Futurities, the big futurity trainers are looking at here and now there are 3 yr old and 4 yr old futurities, I would really like to see these disappear and only have 5 yr old. A 3 yr old may not have growth plates fused therefore will have injuries later. I do believe some, not all, of these trainers think these horses are disposable, I remember reading on here one futurity trainer killed a horse at an event as it wasn't ready. (She told her husband to make the horse sore or something along that line and her husband ended up killing the horse). To me these people should be banned. Drugs, there are so many people running horses on dex, instead of going to a vet for inflammation, they give dex to get that one more run. There are so many different cocktails you get the drift. Vets, not all vets or machines are created equal, I had one horse who had a spiral fracture of the cannon bone, the first vet I went to passed him on the vet check, said he was safe to ride. Next day different vet showed me the X-rays (2 different machines, 2 different vets remember this) and he told me the next 3 days my horses leg may snap off, if I would have listened to the first vet the horse and possibly myself would be dead. Nutrition, I learned this just a few years ago and this is the reason I will not rescue a starved foal, if horses have inadequate nutrition before the age of two will have long term effects. The long term effects are increased chance of arthritis, and at an earlier age, also decreased bone density. Also if the foal is over fed they can develop ephisysis (sorry sp) and cause joint issues later on. Growth hormones, I learned this last year, breeders especially who race will start injecting the colts with growth hormones so they have a bigger horse at the age of 2 when they reach the track, I haven't read anywhere that this is a positive thing for horses, not sure how many breeders do this in the barrel world Point is it isn't genetics, horses that are breaking down is because of man made issues.
Makes me wonder about the whole Equibodyflo therapy thing... | |
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Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
Posts: 2869
Location: SE Missouri | This is interesting and for the most part I disagree. I hope that the consumer is doing their part to buy those that meet the "criteria" for longevity?
Then you have to ask what is that? I think like several mentioned these horses are running harder and longer than the average horse used to not many years ago DESPITE the average environment is a lot worse for them. They don't get used like they used to, they stand in stalls during the week, they get ran on the weekend AFTER not getting used, then they get sore.. I don't think any breeding can overcome that trend.
The other thing mentioned slow horses don't hurt themselves as easily, the hard running, hard turning horses are going to need maintenance just like any other athlete.. I think the bar has been raised for competition. Not many years ago (as someone else mentioned) you didn't have to spend as much on the vet because the competition wasn't either when their horses was "off" for whatever the reason. Now most people go address the issue vrs letting time heal. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | ThreeCorners - 2015-07-18 8:01 AM
The more talented a horse is, the faster they run and the harder they turn, the more they tear themselves up. Just like human athletes, athletic individuals with a athletically demanding "career" are more prone to injury. Slow footed horses riding the fenceline and checking cows in a pasture can go forever without injury because they simply are not putting the stress on their bodies that barrel horses are.
I came back to add......I dated a track vet for a couple years. One day when I was with him doing calls, one of his clients asked him "what can I do to keep my horse sound and keep him from getting hurt?" He looked at her, and said "Put him in a groomed pasture and never take him out to ride or work." That pretty much sums it up.
Very well said! | |
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Breeders need to breed for longevity