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Expert
Posts: 1611
  
| If you are treating for ulcers what type of vitamin K are you using to supplement with?
Do you keep your horses on Vitamin K awhile after or quit supplementing once your done with your treatment?
Does anyone on here use Vitamin K injectable for bleeders occasionally?
Has anyone ever had an instance of bleeding AFTER ulcer treatment?
Any stories, info, and opinions welcome  |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I wouldn't be messing around with vitamin k as it doesn't only affect a certain area, in high doses it can cause organ failure, pulmonary embolism, stroke, and heart attack.
I would treat the problem if you are stLing stomach ulcers, look at omeprazole, if you are talking bleeding into the lung look into Lasix |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| cheryl makofka - 2015-08-10 9:53 PM
I wouldn't be messing around with vitamin k as it doesn't only affect a certain area, in high doses it can cause organ failure, pulmonary embolism, stroke, and heart attack.
I would treat the problem if you are stLing stomach ulcers, look at omeprazole, if you are talking bleeding into the lung look into Lasix
vet advised to supplement with vitamin K ANY time you are treating for ulcers....omeprazole causes a vitamin K deficiency...hence the reason for the discussion...
Also not a dog and cat vet...highly respected internal medicine vet along with dr.white at salisaw recommended it as well...
Edited by astreakinchic 2015-08-10 9:26 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | I use bleeder stop by Oxygen. All natural. It has vitamin k and other ingredients to help reduce lung inflammation and encourage healing. Works great!! |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 317
Location: MS | I use vit c and k powder from Big D's . Recommended by a vet. |
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Omeprazole also changes the pH in the digestrive tract so much so that the good bacteria have a hard time thriving. In human medicine, on going use of ulcer meds are directly connected with poor nutriend assimilation as well. This fact, combined with inflammation and a leaky gut could be disastrous, as our horse isn't getting the nutrients needed to sustain healthy bone and tendon health. Even bleeding (EIPH) is tied into poor magnesium and calcium absorption....again, poor nutrient assimilation. My goal would be to eliminate heal the inflammation in the gut, which would increase the horse's ability to utilize what they are consuming, likely resulting in a better, healthier horse all the way around and a step in the right direction in starting the process of treating a suspected bleeder. |
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 Legal Beagle
Posts: 2809
Location: Central Okla. | JLBerry - 2015-08-11 9:06 AM I use bleeder stop by Oxygen. All natural. It has vitamin k and other ingredients to help reduce lung inflammation and encourage healing. Works great!!
Ditto. Seems to be working on my mare. I still give Lasix on the really hot, humid days. |
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 Professional Amateur
Posts: 6750
Location: Oklahoma | I keep the horses I am running on a daily supplement as well as supplements the day of race.
Daily Supplement K & C Plus from Cox Labs. I pick it up at the track, but Big D's carrys it and several other places. Here is some info: http://equineesp.com/cox-vet-lab/respiratory-relief-horse-supplements/k-c-plus-bleeder-remedy-25-lb/
Day of Race I use Clear Passage (another Cox Labs product) or I use a prescription from the vet. http://www.bigdweb.com/Clear-Passage-Qt/productinfo/44102/
I haven't had to use Lasix and had great success with this program with my horses.
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | Herbie - 2015-08-11 10:22 AM Omeprazole also changes the pH in the digestrive tract so much so that the good bacteria have a hard time thriving. In human medicine, on going use of ulcer meds are directly connected with poor nutriend assimilation as well. This fact, combined with inflammation and a leaky gut could be disastrous, as our horse isn't getting the nutrients needed to sustain healthy bone and tendon health. Even bleeding (EIPH) is tied into poor magnesium and calcium absorption....again, poor nutrient assimilation. My goal would be to eliminate heal the inflammation in the gut, which would increase the horse's ability to utilize what they are consuming, likely resulting in a better, healthier horse all the way around and a step in the right direction in starting the process of treating a suspected bleeder.
Okay, so here is my current treatment thing. Mare was scoped 1 day after returning from a 10 day trip. 2 stage 2 ulcers, 2 more white areas.
We treated with Gastrotech daily feed through and did the Ulcerguard for 30 days, then 2 weeks half dose then less. Since then I only give ulcerguard/omperazol on the day of a race or trailer trip (anywhere).
She shows no signs of ulcers at this time but if we go to a rodeo or a show, I give half tube in the am, half a couple hours out before the run. IF and when they go on the road for a bit, 1/4 of a tube daily PLUS another 1/4 tube hour or 2 before the run.
This has been working for about 10 months, but she has not been scoped again.
I never heard of giving Vit K. So I don't give it.
I agree with the above, but not sure why. . . just one of those "gut" feelings I kept thinking I can't justify giving too much ulcer stuff all the time. I hope I'm right :)
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Herbie - 2015-08-11 9:22 AM
Omeprazole also changes the pH in the digestrive tract so much so that the good bacteria have a hard time thriving. In human medicine, on going use of ulcer meds are directly connected with poor nutriend assimilation as well. This fact, combined with inflammation and a leaky gut could be disastrous, as our horse isn't getting the nutrients needed to sustain healthy bone and tendon health. Even bleeding (EIPH) is tied into poor magnesium and calcium absorption....again, poor nutrient assimilation. My goal would be to eliminate heal the inflammation in the gut, which would increase the horse's ability to utilize what they are consuming, likely resulting in a better, healthier horse all the way around and a step in the right direction in starting the process of treating a suspected bleeder.
This is a point that I have made a number of times when asked about ulcers. If your horse has them, you need to cure them. After that you need to change the health management of your horses to avoid new ulcers. This is not done with continued ulcer meds forever. It is done by changing the diet and feeding schedule to eliminate the root cause of ulcer formation. That is a combination of long periods of an empty stomach, high acid production due to stress and inflammation from a high acid producing diet using grain based concentrate when they are fed. Constant availability to roughage, proper teeth condition (the most common problem) that allows the horse to comfortably chew so more saliva is produced, and an elimination of high grain concentrates will greatly increase your horses chances to remain ulcer free. Constant addition of ulcer meds will have a negative effect on digestive efficiency. When this happens there is a temptation to add even more feed concentrates to make up for the fact that the horse in not thriving. This in turn makes the chances of more ulcers greater. Horse owners need to break this circle. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1034
| winwillows - 2015-08-11 12:43 PM
Herbie - 2015-08-11 9:22 AM
Omeprazole also changes the pH in the digestrive tract so much so that the good bacteria have a hard time thriving. In human medicine, on going use of ulcer meds are directly connected with poor nutriend assimilation as well. This fact, combined with inflammation and a leaky gut could be disastrous, as our horse isn't getting the nutrients needed to sustain healthy bone and tendon health. Even bleeding (EIPH) is tied into poor magnesium and calcium absorption....again, poor nutrient assimilation. My goal would be to eliminate heal the inflammation in the gut, which would increase the horse's ability to utilize what they are consuming, likely resulting in a better, healthier horse all the way around and a step in the right direction in starting the process of treating a suspected bleeder.
This is a point that I have made a number of times when asked about ulcers. If your horse has them, you need to cure them. After that you need to change the health management of your horses to avoid new ulcers. This is not done with continued ulcer meds forever. It is done by changing the diet and feeding schedule to eliminate the root cause of ulcer formation. That is a combination of long periods of an empty stomach, high acid production due to stress and inflammation from a high acid producing diet using grain based concentrate when they are fed. Constant availability to roughage, proper teeth condition (the most common problem ) that allows the horse to comfortably chew so more saliva is produced, and an elimination of high grain concentrates will greatly increase your horses chances to remain ulcer free. Constant addition of ulcer meds will have a negative effect on digestive efficiency. When this happens there is a temptation to add even more feed concentrates to make up for the fact that the horse in not thriving. This in turn makes the chances of more ulcers greater. Horse owners need to break this circle.
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Another point worth discussing regarding omeprazole is that it really takes it 4 days to get to full efficacy, meaning if you're only dosing the day of or day before, you're not giving it time to be effective, and is essence wasting money in giving it only the day of hauling or day before unless you're going to continue to give it for at least 4 days.
Stress in itself produces an inflammatory response within the body. When a horse stresses due to hauling, it triggers the inflammatory repsonse and can heighten it in other areas in the body as well, hence ulcers. If we can get the inflammation and the response to inflammation under control, there should be less occurence of ulcers as well as other issues that plague our horses, which are also resulting from inflammation. |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | Hmmm, so. My horses when home are turned out 24/7. They have good grass (lots) but they do get grain. Low starch and low sugar. I actually feed Renewgold but as a suppliment. Im uncomfortable with feeding it soley because of where we live. Really good consistant hay is difficult. It ranges wildly in price and quality. Also have a mare that is currently winning a lot. Hesitate to change things up yet dont want ulcers to derail them.
Sorry, Ill start a new threat. Did not mean to hijack this one. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Herbie - 2015-08-11 1:51 PM Another point worth discussing regarding omeprazole is that it really takes it 4 days to get to full efficacy, meaning if you're only dosing the day of or day before, you're not giving it time to be effective, and is essence wasting money in giving it only the day of hauling or day before unless you're going to continue to give it for at least 4 days.
Stress in itself produces an inflammatory response within the body. When a horse stresses due to hauling, it triggers the inflammatory repsonse and can heighten it in other areas in the body as well, hence ulcers. If we can get the inflammation and the response to inflammation under control, there should be less occurence of ulcers as well as other issues that plague our horses, which are also resulting from inflammation.
Well I love you and you may be right but I'm going to disagree. We get horses in for training that have never had ulcer meds bc the client legit had no clue they have them and then we can give 10cc of precison pharmacy's mix before breakfast and then 10 more before lunch the day of a show and MAJOR differences can be seen in the horse. The owners are all like "omg you fixed him you keep him quite blah blah blah." No we just put a bandaid over his problem and he was able to actually go in and work.
I totally agree with the unhighlighted part of what you said tho and I feel like once treated that the game plan should be reducing inflammation as a whole.
I feel like in some horses we are seeing this cycle of ulcers and bleeding because the real issues of feed and overall health are not being addressed and owners that can't "see pain" or read their horse they just think "oh he's up tonight!"
I know the whole issue should be address but you honestly cant explain that to some ppl and I want to help the horses. Owners believe in vit and mineral supplements tho....trying to find the best supplement to just help deficencies caused by omeprazole. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Swannranch - 2015-08-11 3:33 PM
Hmmm, so. My horses when home are turned out 24/7. They have good grass (lots) but they do get grain. Low starch and low sugar. I actually feed Renewgold but as a suppliment. Im uncomfortable with feeding it soley because of where we live. Really good consistant hay is difficult. It ranges wildly in price and quality. Also have a mare that is currently winning a lot. Hesitate to change things up yet dont want ulcers to derail them.
Sorry, Ill start a new threat. Did not mean to hijack this one.
post away because i've got one in your same boat and we plan not change him unless he starts telling us we need to... |
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Vitamin K discussion- ulcers/bleeders