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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
  
| Keen Ice overtook him by 3/4 of a length for a 2nd place finish.
Mr. Zayat says that he has a 'gut feeling' that AP will be retired following this defeat. I'm sure Bob Baffert is thinking 'I told you so' since he didn't want AP to run in the Travers at all.
Thoughts? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | They should have let him retire after the Triple Crown, he would have gone out on top of his game. I thought it was stupid not to. Obviously, his owners do not really understand horses. Every horse is beatable, no horse can stay at the top of their game for very long. |
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 Thread Killer
Posts: 7545
 
| I agree that it wasn't the best choice to try for the Travers. He had only 3 weeks to recover from the Haskell...and was shipped from California to New York just days ago. Bad timing. They should have given him some more recoup time and a shot in the PA Derby then on to the BCC, but I think the hype train got a little derailed. We did, however, get to see how he handled not bringing his A game to the table, and he came in second to a longtime challenger. A respectable defeat, in my opinion. I'm sure his connections are weighing the options and I'm sure retirement and the Breeders Cup Classic are on the table. My opinion is that he's a race horse. He's born, bred, and trained to race. It's ok with me if they take him to the breeding shed. He doesn't owe anybody anything. It's also ok with me if they take him to Keeneland, because I've got tickets to be there and also because I'm curious to see if he can do it. |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| Just Plain Lucky - 2015-08-30 8:00 AM
I agree that it wasn't the best choice to try for the Travers. He had only 3 weeks to recover from the Haskell...and was shipped from California to New York just days ago. Bad timing. They should have given him some more recoup time and a shot in the PA Derby then on to the BCC, but I think the hype train got a little derailed. We did, however, get to see how he handled not bringing his A game to the table, and he came in second to a longtime challenger. A respectable defeat, in my opinion. I'm sure his connections are weighing the options and I'm sure retirement and the Breeders Cup Classic are on the table. My opinion is that he's a race horse. He's born, bred, and trained to race. It's ok with me if they take him to the breeding shed. He doesn't owe anybody anything. It's also ok with me if they take him to Keeneland, because I've got tickets to be there and also because I'm curious to see if he can do it.
Agree 100% |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Just Plain Lucky - 2015-08-30 7:00 AM I agree that it wasn't the best choice to try for the Travers. He had only 3 weeks to recover from the Haskell...and was shipped from California to New York just days ago. Bad timing. They should have given him some more recoup time and a shot in the PA Derby then on to the BCC, but I think the hype train got a little derailed. We did, however, get to see how he handled not bringing his A game to the table, and he came in second to a longtime challenger. A respectable defeat, in my opinion. I'm sure his connections are weighing the options and I'm sure retirement and the Breeders Cup Classic are on the table. My opinion is that he's a race horse. He's born, bred, and trained to race. It's ok with me if they take him to the breeding shed. He doesn't owe anybody anything. It's also ok with me if they take him to Keeneland, because I've got tickets to be there and also because I'm curious to see if he can do it.
Also agree. I can't wait to see what he does as a sire, but he IS a racehorse and still has the want to from every thing I have seen in his races. If they chose to keep racing him that is great too. He could get hurt, that is a chance they take but it was also a chance they took with every race after the KY Derby. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10797
Location: Kansas | Rough trip I thought for this great horse as Frosted kept him pretty tight on the rail where the ground is always looser.
Owners got greedy in my opinion. He's only three and has been asked for his life in a very short span of time.
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 Popped
Posts: 20421
Location: LuluLand~along I64 Indiana | I guess I didn't see the same race you guys did.... I think when AP jock had frozen beat he was in cruise mode and never saw keen ice coming and not enough track to react after he went by. |
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| luluwhit - 2015-08-31 9:13 AM
I guess I didn't see the same race you guys did.... I think when AP jock had frozen beat he was in cruise mode and never saw keen ice coming and not enough track to react after he went by.
I have to respectfully disagree with this. When Keen Ice came by he had nothing left. He was being asked and he didn't fire. I think what everyone is missing is just how great this horse really is. He showed more in this losing effort than people realize. Not even taking his short layoff between races, his many, many miles logged traveling (that even does us mere humans in) but take a good hard look at race itself. I would first mention that he was pressured by Frosted from the get go. Being pressured is a lot different than sitting back on cruise control. He went with Frosted step for step which isn't an easy task as Frosted is a beast. Furthermore, when Frosted made a move he had to go with him. He could not risk getting trapped on the inside as he was on the rail. Research the times mid race and you will see a race that was run in blazing fractions. It was clear this race would be won by a closer as the final quarter slowed down to snail speed. AP showed just how great he really is. He is incredible. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| hotpaints - 2015-08-30 6:28 AM They should have let him retire after the Triple Crown, he would have gone out on top of his game. I thought it was stupid not to. Obviously, his owners do not really understand horses. Every horse is beatable, no horse can stay at the top of their game for very long.
I agree, nothing to lose my retiring him a champion after the Triple Crown, risking injury and defeat by continuing to run him. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | luluwhit - 2015-08-31 7:13 AM I guess I didn't see the same race you guys did.... I think when AP jock had frozen beat he was in cruise mode and never saw keen ice coming and not enough track to react after he went by.
I agree, I have seen him cruise past the finish line a few times and was wondering when it was going to catch up to him. |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | I saw his stud fee was going to possibly be $200K!!! |
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 Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | rodeomom3 - 2015-08-31 11:48 AM hotpaints - 2015-08-30 6:28 AM They should have let him retire after the Triple Crown, he would have gone out on top of his game. I thought it was stupid not to. Obviously, his owners do not really understand horses. Every horse is beatable, no horse can stay at the top of their game for very long. I agree, nothing to lose my retiring him a champion after the Triple Crown, risking injury and defeat by continuing to run him.
I disagree. While I understand your reasonings, if they would have retired him after Belmont, he would have only ran 8 races total. He was bred to run. Secretariat had 21 starts in his life time, and only 16 of those were 1st place finishes. I like watching AP run, so maybe it's for selfish reasons, but I'd love to see him at the Breeder's Cup. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10797
Location: Kansas | I think if American Pharoh had been in the middle of the track there might have been a different outcome but who knows. It's horse racing. Always a gamble.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | 2nd place is respectable given the circumstances.
Racing him is bringing attention to a dying sport. I hope he runs again at the Breeders. |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | I could understand running him in the Haskell. Winning that gave him something he didn't have up to that point, an automatic slot in the Breeders Cup Classic. Why they ran him again before the BCC is beyond me. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| hoofs_in_motion - 2015-08-31 12:57 PM
I saw his stud fee was going to possibly be $200K!!!
Around there I believe, I heard it was second highest TB stud fee behind Tapit at $300,000. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | They ran him because the industry wants him to and the connections want him to. He was bumped into by Frosted all down the stretch. That's enough excuse right there. I think he was amazing in defeat, as was Zenyatta when she was barely outrun by Blame. They both had excuse enough to spit the bit and finish well back. But they battled on. If nobody had the courage to risk defeat, nobody would run. We can all sit in our lazyboys criticize, but, I trust the connections to make the best decision based on the facts; how he is looking and feeling.
ETA: I think they should have and would have DQ'd Frosted IF it would have made any difference in the final results. Frosted still got outrun and Keen Ice had no part in the interference so he still would have won.
Edited by OregonBR 2015-09-01 1:23 PM
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Popped
Posts: 20421
Location: LuluLand~along I64 Indiana | banjomia - 2015-08-31 10:48 AM luluwhit - 2015-08-31 9:13 AM I guess I didn't see the same race you guys did.... I think when AP jock had frozen beat he was in cruise mode and never saw keen ice coming and not enough track to react after he went by. I have to respectfully disagree with this. When Keen Ice came by he had nothing left. He was being asked and he didn't fire. I think what everyone is missing is just how great this horse really is. He showed more in this losing effort than people realize. Not even taking his short layoff between races, his many, many miles logged traveling (that even does us mere humans in ) but take a good hard look at race itself. I would first mention that he was pressured by Frosted from the get go. Being pressured is a lot different than sitting back on cruise control. He went with Frosted step for step which isn't an easy task as Frosted is a beast. Furthermore, when Frosted made a move he had to go with him. He could not risk getting trapped on the inside as he was on the rail. Research the times mid race and you will see a race that was run in blazing fractions. It was clear this race would be won by a closer as the final quarter slowed down to snail speed. AP showed just how great he really is. He is incredible. 
 (ap second.JPG)
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 ap second.JPG (45KB - 161 downloads)
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | It'll be interesting to see how he responds after being beat. Zenyatta broke my heart after her loss, I don't think she knew why they weren't headed to the place where they put flowers over you and take pictures. To me she kept looking back like "hey, we are supposed to go over there arent' we?" I hope AP has a nice recovery and some time off and comes back strong in the BCC to win it, get his winners circle picture and enjoys a long gig as a TB Baby Daddy. That 3 year old has been asked for and given his guts. |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| There was 27 days between Haskell and Travers-one day less than four weeks. I do agree that it was too soon in between races due to all his previous coast to coast flying, but it also was the fastest mile and a quarter that AP had ever run in. He showed lots of class coming back and passing Frosted in the stretch, but Keen Ice had his A game on. |
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 The Original Cyber Bartender
Location: Washington | I found the early fractions slow, the closing fractions quicken. It set up for a closer. AP ran a hell of a race. He placed second, he is still the champ.
Keen Ice road into the history books by winning this race. Thrilled for his team, because without this we would all be saying Keen Ice who?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| fatchance - 2015-09-01 10:27 PM
I found the early fractions slow, the closing fractions quicken. It set up for a closer. AP ran a hell of a race. He placed second, he is still the champ.
Keen Ice road into the history books by winning this race. Thrilled for his team, because without this we would all be saying Keen Ice who?
Well, Keen Ice has always been second to AP. He was known as the one who just couldn't out run a full gas American Pharoah. So It's really doesn't surprise me that Keen Ice finally passed him after Frosted took all the gas away.
Caution! Conspiracy Theory alert: I believe was Frosted's trainer's plan. How hard Frosted was pushing AP from the beginning was not even a set up for Frosted to win. Heck, Frosted was fading fast at the end. I think that the plan was to push AP til he didn't have anything for the home stretch, and then hello, Keen Ice. AP's streak ended, breaking news, etc. They didn't care about Frosted winning, just so long as AP didn't.
And conspiracy theory over.  |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-01 9:19 PM fatchance - 2015-09-01 10:27 PM I found the early fractions slow, the closing fractions quicken. It set up for a closer. AP ran a hell of a race. He placed second, he is still the champ.
Keen Ice road into the history books by winning this race. Thrilled for his team, because without this we would all be saying Keen Ice who?
Well, Keen Ice has always been second to AP. He was known as the one who just couldn't out run a full gas American Pharoah. So It's really doesn't surprise me that Keen Ice finally passed him after Frosted took all the gas away. Caution! Conspiracy Theory alert: I believe was Frosted's trainer's plan. How hard Frosted was pushing AP from the beginning was not even a set up for Frosted to win. Heck, Frosted was fading fast at the end. I think that the plan was to push AP til he didn't have anything for the home stretch, and then hello, Keen Ice. AP's streak ended, breaking news, etc. They didn't care about Frosted winning, just so long as AP didn't. And conspiracy theory over.
You may be laughing and downplaying it but in truth there is a basis for your theory.
Last year they boxed California Chrome along the rail and he doesn't LIKE the inside so he didn't run his race.
When Smarty Jones ran they played on his weakness as well at the expense of the horse they used to do it.
So don't laugh, it isn't being paranoid if it's true.  |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| I thought the bumping really distracted him. Plus, yes, he just appeared to be tired. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
| From what I read on bloodhorse, it didn't appear that the owners/trainer of Frosted were the most thrilled with the ride the new jockey gave Frosted, apparently his regular rider was hurt hours before the race so a new rider had to take his place, and that seemed to change the race strategy. Also, I didn't get from what I read previously on bloodhorse that Bob Baffert was super keen on running AP in this race, but the owners wanted to so thats why he ran. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| slowrunnin - 2015-09-02 2:19 PM
From what I read on bloodhorse, it didn't appear that the owners/trainer of Frosted were the most thrilled with the ride the new jockey gave Frosted, apparently his regular rider was hurt hours before the race so a new rider had to take his place, and that seemed to change the race strategy. Also, I didn't get from what I read previously on bloodhorse that Bob Baffert was super keen on running AP in this race, but the owners wanted to so thats why he ran.
That very well could've been it too. I kinda spaced that Frosted was under a different Jock. And no, Baffert wanted to rest him until the Classic, but Zayat's said to run him, and owners have final say. I think next time they will be listening to their trainer when he says the horse needs rested more.
And I wasn't really laughing it off, more of just making fun of myself being one of those kinds. (I know there is basis for the idea, whether it is true or not, it is plausible) |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 499
Location: ARKANSAS | I think no matter WHO the jockey is, or WHO the horse is, or WHAT KIND of race it is, IF you keep running one, they WILL LOSE at one time or another!!!! |
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | It was just announced the American Pharoah will stay in training for the BC  |
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| luluwhit - 2015-09-01 1:26 PM
banjomia - 2015-08-31 10:48 AM luluwhit - 2015-08-31 9:13 AM I guess I didn't see the same race you guys did.... I think when AP jock had frozen beat he was in cruise mode and never saw keen ice coming and not enough track to react after he went by. I have to respectfully disagree with this. When Keen Ice came by he had nothing left. He was being asked and he didn't fire. I think what everyone is missing is just how great this horse really is. He showed more in this losing effort than people realize. Not even taking his short layoff between races, his many, many miles logged traveling (that even does us mere humans in ) but take a good hard look at race itself. I would first mention that he was pressured by Frosted from the get go. Being pressured is a lot different than sitting back on cruise control. He went with Frosted step for step which isn't an easy task as Frosted is a beast. Furthermore, when Frosted made a move he had to go with him. He could not risk getting trapped on the inside as he was on the rail. Research the times mid race and you will see a race that was run in blazing fractions. It was clear this race would be won by a closer as the final quarter slowed down to snail speed. AP showed just how great he really is. He is incredible.
Yeah...oh crap...my horse has nothing left...watch the replay...he is asking..and asking......AP was cooked.
Heres your internal splits.....third quarter a blazing 23.18, second quarter a blazing 23.6...this was the dual match between him and Frosted..not to mention he crashed into him....final quarter, a snailspace at 26.49. If Keen Ice didn't run past him I would have seriously questioned Keen Ice as a racehorse. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Breeders' Cup World Championships
4 hrs ·ago
American Pharoah, the Triple Crown champion, will race one more time, in October at the Breeders’ Cup Classic at Keeneland, his owner Ahmed Zayat confirmed today. |
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Expert
Posts: 4652
| I also agree. He should not have run after only three week's. I know this horse and he is on my muscle mass produt and even with that and as great a race that he ran he just didn't have the kick at the end. Yes the owner was greedy and now he has to live with the fact that he will not retire un defeated.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | AP is still a champion. The title of this thread is sort of misleading.. 2nd place, while not a win, is not really what I would consider "losing" lol |
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Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | ladyelbert - 2015-09-04 2:56 AM
I think no matter WHO the jockey is, or WHO the horse is, or WHAT KIND of race it is, IF you keep running one, they WILL LOSE at one time or another!!!!
Fact...look at arguably the greatest TB ever, Secretariat. |
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The Original Cyber Bartender
Location: Washington | run n rate - 2015-09-04 3:51 PM ladyelbert - 2015-09-04 2:56 AM I think no matter WHO the jockey is, or WHO the horse is, or WHAT KIND of race it is, IF you keep running one, they WILL LOSE at one time or another!!!! Fact...look at arguably the greatest TB ever, Secretariat.
They will surely run second or third or forth or fifth and with a winning record still be considered a great. Queen Z ran second and we never listened about her losing. She ran a great a race...AP did the same, and never forget **** happens. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | barrelracr131 - 2015-09-04 1:41 PM
AP is still a champion. The title of this thread is sort of misleading.. 2nd place, while not a win, is not really what I would consider "losing" lol
No doubt! No matter what happens, the Triple Crown is his place in history. Nobody can take that away from him. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| barrelracr131 - 2015-09-04 2:41 PM
AP is still a champion. The title of this thread is sort of misleading.. 2nd place, while not a win, is not really what I would consider "losing" lol
When you don't win...you lose. It's pretty straight forward. |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-04 11:44 PM barrelracr131 - 2015-09-04 2:41 PM AP is still a champion. The title of this thread is sort of misleading.. 2nd place, while not a win, is not really what I would consider "losing" lol When you don't win...you lose. It's pretty straight forward.
Ok, Ricky Bobby |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | run n rate - 2015-09-01 6:15 PM
It'll be interesting to see how he responds after being beat. Zenyatta broke my heart after her loss, I don't think she knew why they weren't headed to the place where they put flowers over you and take pictures. To me she kept looking back like "hey, we are supposed to go over there arent' we?" I hope AP has a nice recovery and some time off and comes back strong in the BCC to win it, get his winners circle picture and enjoys a long gig as a TB Baby Daddy. That 3 year old has been asked for and given his guts.
You say what I'm thinking but I can't get the words right!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| Bob - 2015-09-05 10:51 AM I also agree. He should not have run after only three week's. I know this horse and he is on my muscle mass produt and even with that and as great a race that he ran he just didn't have the kick at the end. Yes the owner was greedy and now he has to live with the fact that he will not retire un defeated.
he was never undefeated..... |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| Chandler's Mom - 2015-09-06 7:51 PM run n rate - 2015-09-01 6:15 PM It'll be interesting to see how he responds after being beat. Zenyatta broke my heart after her loss, I don't think she knew why they weren't headed to the place where they put flowers over you and take pictures. To me she kept looking back like "hey, we are supposed to go over there arent' we?" I hope AP has a nice recovery and some time off and comes back strong in the BCC to win it, get his winners circle picture and enjoys a long gig as a TB Baby Daddy. That 3 year old has been asked for and given his guts. You say what I'm thinking but I can't get the words right!!!
he wasnt undefeated to begin with...... hes been beat and it was far worse than his last race lol |
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