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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
  
Location: Idaho | Hello all, I'm not a frequent visitor but I do come on here time to time when I need some education.
My colt is now 4 years old, he has all the ground work done with him. Started riding him at 3, didn't start really riding him until he was about 3 1/2. When I started to ride him more, I put him in an O ring twisted wire. A friend of mine who is actually an amazing trainer(she is very well known), had warned at one point not to keep him in the twisted wire for too long as it will make his mouth harder, and him a little more resistant. Now I do not claim to be a baby starter, I have been riding horses for 25 years, used to train professionally (but horses that were already broke, needed to be retrained, or started on barrels, put a solid foundation etc.) and this colt is my FIRST baby that I started from the ground up, so it has been quite the learning experience. Now unfortunately, trial and error.. I believe I did have him in that O ring for too long, and now I am trying to undo what I have done and I'm not sure how to fix it.
He leaned on the O ring a lot, so I moved him into a Reinsman combo with a three piece with a dogbone. I have a friend helping me who trains and starts babies for a living, and that is what he suggested to me in order to stop him from leaning so much on the bit and becoming more responsive. It HAS helped, and now I can control him nicely without having to yank and pull on his face. Also I am getting him to where he is responding nice to leg, body and voice cues too. My thing though is, he's been in the reinsman for about 3 weeks, being ridden every other day and I have been told not to keep him in that bit, for fear of the same outcome so now I am going to switch him to a softer bit.. was thinking the Charmayne James Chappy bit. I love that bit and it has always been my "Go to" bit as I've never had a horse that didn't like it. However, he still gets a bit stiff going to the right. H. He has always had issues going to the right and giving to the bit, and pressure to the right. He is a LOT better than what he used to be, but he still isn't where I want him to be. I had my chiro look at him a few months ago, and he said he looked good. I am planning to have my chiro come out again and look at him again just to make sure that is not the problem, and his teeth have been done. Saddle fits well, I use a CSI to protect him as he grows. I just want to soften him up.. and I don't know how to do that, without having fear of undoing what I have already taught him (if that makes sense).
The second issue I have, is his left lead. He does not like to pick it up.. and to be honest, I am used to cueing a finished horse.. move outside leg back, apply pressure and cue them to pick up their lead. He is not finished.. He is broke, but not finished. And I don't know how to cue him to pick up that lead when I want him to. Usually about the 4-5th time, I can get him to pick it up. Once he picks it up, I can have him hold it nicely when going in a circle.. but then when I move him out to the rail and around the arena, he immediately swaps back to his right lead and holds his right lead and I don't know how to get him back on his left lead without going back to a 60 foot circle, where after a few more tries I put him back on his lead.. only for him to switch it again. I don't know if it's me or him, because my friend got on him.. and walla! Left lead.. he made it look so easy. It has just been a struggle and I'm not sure what I should do, and what I need to do to get the results that I am looking for.
Thanks all for your input :)
Edited by DashNDustem 2015-09-03 3:04 AM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
 
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | IMO, softness in the face starts with softness in the body, and is refined by the give and release of your hands. I do swap bits around some to help keep them sharper, but it's mainly accomplished by your riding. As you saw when your friend got on and the horse magically did right. Most of us get in that situation occasionally--we've done a good training job, but our riding gets a little off kilter and we don't get the response we think we're asking for. Let your friend tweak on you and I bet your horse will get better. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I disagree with your friend leaving them in a o ring snaffle for too long will get a horse pushing on the bit.
Yes some horses do get pushy, but if a trainer does their job correctly, you should be able to ride in any bit without issues.
One thing I would have done differently is I would have started with a smooth o ring snaffle. A twisted wire is substantially harsher and can dull a mouth when the horse is still learning and the individual doesn't know when to pull and when to release.
If I need a quicker response, then I will go to a twisted snaffle.
If the horse is dumping on their front end, I will go with a draw gag.
If your friend can get him to pick up the left lead, then it is you. My guess is you are shifting your weight in the stirrups or saddle when you try to go to the rail throwing the horse off balance. This may be a subtle change, but horses can feel everything. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | Three 4 Luck - 2015-09-02 6:08 AM
IMO, softness in the face starts with softness in the body, and is refined by the give and release of your hands. I do swap bits around some to help keep them sharper, but it's mainly accomplished by your riding. As you saw when your friend got on and the horse magically did right. Most of us get in that situation occasionally--we've done a good training job, but our riding gets a little off kilter and we don't get the response we think we're asking for. Let your friend tweak on you and I bet your horse will get better.
cheryl makofka - 2015-09-02 8:04 AM
I disagree with your friend leaving them in a o ring snaffle for too long will get a horse pushing on the bit.
Yes some horses do get pushy, but if a trainer does their job correctly, you should be able to ride in any bit without issues.
One thing I would have done differently is I would have started with a smooth o ring snaffle. A twisted wire is substantially harsher and can dull a mouth when the horse is still learning and the individual doesn't know when to pull and when to release.
If I need a quicker response, then I will go to a twisted snaffle.
If the horse is dumping on their front end, I will go with a draw gag.
If your friend can get him to pick up the left lead, then it is you. My guess is you are shifting your weight in the stirrups or saddle when you try to go to the rail throwing the horse off balance. This may be a subtle change, but horses can feel everything.
Three 4 luck,
He does help me with it. He has told me what to do, but he kind of wants me to learn on my own. He has helped me A LOT, and I won't knock him for me wanting to figure it out because he has confidence in me that I can do it. It is just frustrating! I am a very quiet rider, and he is very aggressive and when he asks for something from his horses, he wants it "now" and not 10 seconds later.. which I think makes the difference.
Cheryl,
Well I should add that I had a friend of mine take him for 60 days to put some rides on him. She is a good rider, but she too was just taking him on as a project(I couldn't afford $600 a month for a trainer) and I didn't feel comfortable putting that time on him for risk of him doing baby things, and me getting injured. Before I brought him there, he was extremely soft in the mouth. I had originally started him in a halter, bumped him up to a smooth O ring and as you said.. I wasn't getting that quicker response, so I moved him into a twisted wire. But I sent that twisted wire with him to my friend, and when I got him back he no longer had that softness. She did ask at one point to change the bit, but I didn't know any better so I told her no. I can't really knock her for it, because I just wanted him to get rides in and she did ride him like I wanted. I have been working with him to soften him back up, and like I said it has gotten better but it has not been where I want him to be.
And for the balance, I guess that could be right. Because when going in circles, I always sit deep and always keep him slightly flexed to the inside, pick up his shoulder etc. When I got to the straight away, I tend to shift a bit to go straight.. and he always swaps his lead. -.- | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Straight should be a change in direction more than a change in body--I want to go from straight to small to large circles with subtle adjustments that don't affect the horse's body position. Especially when they're learning. Straight is a lot harder to do correctly than circles. Help him out a little by keeping him wrapped around your inside leg so he learns to hold the lead. Also work on 2 tracking, that will help. | |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | A good clinic or lessons is cheaper than a month of training and will also teach you how to ask for what you're wanting. This is a long slow process and bit changes at this stage in the game indicates an issue. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | If your going to be effective at training a horse, you cannot be passive. When a horse is learning, you are understanding, but when they are lazy or disobedient, you need to know how to increase pressure to get the results.
Honestly, it sounds like you are in a bit over your head in the bit and softness deal. That isn't the easiest thing to become proficient at. Also, the body and feet have a lot to do with what your problem is. That is the same issue with the lead.
At the point he is at in his training you should not be having that issue. You need to keep him driving and help him stay in that lead and let him know its not okay to switch. Very hard to describe what you need to do and even harder to actually do yourself. Basically, make sure you outside leg keeps driving the hind end in and forward and keep the shoulders up and body bent. If he comes out, don't just let him keep going in the wrong lead.
Have a few bits that you ride in. A short shank low port or double break will also be a good bit that wont be too harsh and be much more than a snaffle. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | I think everything that has been said is on point. It shouldn't matter what bit you ride in and for how long, you should never have to yank or pull. The whole idea with the o-ring is to get them to respect and respond. Through pressure and release he should learn these things. Once they understand the concept you move to something with lift and leverage and begin to introduce new mouthpieces. However, you should still be able to go back to that o-ring and get him soft.
As far as the lead when he drops it you need to let him know he did wrong. Stop him and start again. If your really good you will be able to feel when he's about to switch and tip his nose in and hold that lead with your legs. Cue with your inside leg and hold the hip in with your outside. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | Sounds like I got my work cut out for me (this baby training stuff is hard work as is! lol)
Alright, thank you everyone for your input. I have been considering having a trainer to come help me with his leads/softness thing.. just wanted to see if I could fix it myself first. I 'do' have a problem with being aggressive, but I have gotten a LOT better from where I used to be. Guess I just need to work on being a more assertive rider. Thanks again :)
Edited by DashNDustem 2015-09-01 1:20 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | So I thought I should give you all an update.
So I took the advice given, about my seat and I rode tonight with things fresh in my mind. I didn't let him get away with picking up the wrong lead, each time he did I would stop him and then have him pick up the lope again. First time he picked it up right off the bat, the second time he picked it up again right away and the third time it took like 3 times for him to pick it up, but he did! We also loped off on the rail and I just kept my seat the same, remaining balanced and using my inside leg, and slight inside rein and he held it all the way around the arena for more than a few times. I even transitioned from the rail to circles and back out on the rail, I did have to drive him a bit to keep that stride but I was so proud! Yay!
I also swapped the bit to something a little more lighter and softer, and it too made a difference. I was really paying attention to my hands and I had a pretty flexible colt. Kinda crazy how little things can create a better solution. I was so happy with the result, I just need to be consistent. Thank you all for your advice, you guys are awesome  and no, I'm not looking for that quick fix! I am aware I will have to keep working at it and focusing on getting things correct and moving forward.
Also I have contacted a well known trainer in my area, just for assistance.  :D
Edited by DashNDustem 2015-09-03 3:14 AM
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | DashNDustem - 2015-09-03 3:11 AM So I thought I should give you all an update. So I took the advice given, about my seat and I rode tonight with things fresh in my mind. I didn't let him get away with picking up the wrong lead, each time he did I would stop him and then have him pick up the lope again. First time he picked it up right off the bat, the second time he picked it up again right away and the third time it took like 3 times for him to pick it up, but he did! We also loped off on the rail and I just kept my seat the same, remaining balanced and using my inside leg, and slight inside rein and he held it all the way around the arena for more than a few times. I even transitioned from the rail to circles and back out on the rail, I did have to drive him a bit to keep that stride but I was so proud! Yay! I also swapped the bit to something a little more lighter and softer, and it too made a difference. I was really paying attention to my hands and I had a pretty flexible colt. Kinda crazy how little things can create a better solution. I was so happy with the result, I just need to be consistent. Thank you all for your advice, you guys are awesome and no, I'm not looking for that quick fix! I am aware I will have to keep working at it and focusing on getting things correct and moving forward. Also I have contacted a well known trainer in my area, just for assistance. :D
Great! I'm glad we were able to help. Sounds like you're back on the right track.
I was proud of my young horse yesterday because I used her bit on another horse and forgot to move the reins back to the snaffle ring before I got on her. (I'm using a dutton with a loomis shank) The last time I did that, she fussed with her head and didn't want to move forward when I picked up a rein, but it actually took a minute before I noticed this time because it was a very subtle difference in her response. When I fixed it, she was like THANK YOU. LOL | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Glad things are better.. sounds like the friend had hard hands or didnt let go and with a harsh bit it can lead to stiff hard mouthed horses.. do lots of suppling work in a 3 piece .. softly.. as well..they cant lean on the bit if there isnt anything to lean on.. using your body and getting his body , the head should be simple to get supple and softness.. a clinic as mentioned would put you leaps and bounds if you want to train him yourself.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2015-09-03 1:20 PM
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Need some advice: Picking up leads/Softness- Update!