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 Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
  
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Thanks for the help... Hubby got me a new billy cook for my birthday. It definitely didn't fit with a 1" Best Ever Pad. This is just an old, crummy Reinsman I grabbed to try......
Edited by ~BINGO~ 2015-09-08 3:52 PM
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Anyone? |
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 A Gopher's Worst Nightmare
Posts: 5094
Location: Southern Oregon | I am no expert, I too am reading like a mad lady and getting help from an excellent saddle fitter who is a good friend. I would say those dry spots up on his withers is a good indicator that you have pressure points which are bad especially being smaller like that. To narrow in the gullet?
Edited by cowgirl_3207 2015-09-08 4:59 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1409
Location: Oklahoma | my experience and hard to tell by the picture but when you sit in the saddle put your hand under the horn and lean forward and see if it smashes you fingers. I though my saddle fit and had it for a couple years and I started having sore issues with my horse couldn't figure it out til I went to a barrel race and went to get on and for some reason that I don't usually do but so glad I did I grabbed under the horn and pulled myself up and it smashed my fingers! I couldn't believe it! because it set higher than your pictures. Then it made sense why my horse was so upset after a run instead of before. hope this helps :))
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | The horn doesn't smash down over her withers, if that's what you're speaking of. It stays up for sure. It seems like every single saddle I have tried on her is snug around her withers. So I'm hoping I can just find an agreeable pad... |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | I hate saddle fit issues.....that being said. I had a sweat pattern on one of my guys kind of like the one yours has. Come to find out the bar angles were too steep. Eventually caused him to have not only a sore back but muscle atophy and develop a shark fin wither. Corrected the issue by finding a saddle with a less steep bar angle. He is still high withered (just the way he is built) but the muscle atophy is gone and he has filled back out in the withers. Good luck, I FEEL your pain.
edited: looking at one of the pics it appears maybe your angle is to steep and you may have some bridging going on putting pressure on the withers and pinching them. Look at some pads made for bridging.
Edited by ampratt 2015-09-09 11:40 AM
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Would a csi pad possibly aid? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | I would look up a cheap pad made specifically for bridging and give it a try, if it works then spring for an better one.
edited: I don't know anything about this pad but you might want to call them or check it out.
http://shopping.juliegoodnight.com/Bridge-Pad-BP.htm
Edited by ampratt 2015-09-09 3:27 PM
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | I am no expert but have learned a lot through my own saddle fit journey. I see with your saddle the dry spots on the withers that others have mentioned, that is not a good thing. I'm bad at explaining so I'll try adding a pic I drew on. It appears that the angle of the bars is wrong for your horse. See the gap at the bottom? That should not be there. It should be flush with your horse's body all the way down. My old saddle did this to my horse. It appears to me that all the pressure is being concentrated at the top of the bars and that is what's creating the dry spots on the sides of the withers. In my horse's case, he needed a saddle that had more flare for his shoulders and a bar angle that matched his back. He is now in a Meleta Brown freedom saddle #2 tree. Tight spots or saddles that are the wrong shape for the horse can not be fixed by pads. Only a new saddle can fix the issue.
ETA-ok it's not cooperating with me for adding the pic. The picture I was referring to was the 3rd one from the top.
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-09-09 4:00 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 120
| I would say that saddle doesn't fit....... It is already to tight on the shoulders and the withers without a pad. Or atleast that's how it appears in the pictures. Seems to sit "down" while slightly popping up in the back. I think you can pad it up to correct some of the balance issues but your still going to have a saddle that is tight through the wither and shoulder area...sigh.....I am struggling with this same problem...seems I can never find a saddle to fit. Been thinking about the flex tree for some flexion through the shoulder area.....anybody think those help? |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | banjomia - 2015-09-09 3:59 PM I would say that saddle doesn't fit....... It is already to tight on the shoulders and the withers without a pad. Or atleast that's how it appears in the pictures. Seems to sit "down" while slightly popping up in the back. I think you can pad it up to correct some of the balance issues but your still going to have a saddle that is tight through the wither and shoulder area...sigh.....I am struggling with this same problem...seems I can never find a saddle to fit. Been thinking about the flex tree for some flexion through the shoulder area.....anybody think those help?
That *may* help if the tree is the right shape for your horse, but in my case I had a Marlene Mcrae flex tree and it still did pretty much the exact same thing the OP's saddle is doing. A flex tree does obviously flex a tiny bit but can still pinch, bridge, and rock like any other saddle. They're really not the Godsend that companies make them out to be. The only saddles I've found that will allow freedom for my horse's shoulders are the Meleta Brown saddles and the Martins (although I have not ridden in a martin, I just tried it on him and it looked fabulous). While both of those saddles are different, they are very thoughtfully designed and the only reason I want to sell my Meleta is that it's too small for me :( |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| Just for curiosity, was this saddle made in Greenville TX or Sulphur OK? |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | streakysox - 2015-09-09 8:40 PM
Just for curiosity, was this saddle made in Greenville TX or Sulphur OK?
Sulphur, OK. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 342
Location: Alabama | does not look like a good fit... Looks like it sits down hill, and the dry spots read as pressure points around the withers.... i cant tell for sure but it looks as if there is muscular atrophy behing her shoulder as well....
Depending on the issue, its hard to tell from pictures what the issue is, a CSI may help, however if its an issue of the saddle (gullet or bar flair) being to small it would not be fixed by a pad, if you increase the pads its like putting on two pair of sock to fix a shoe thats already to small |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | I've been thru so many saddles, and I know so many of you have done the same trying to find "the one". FQHB saddles are waaaay too big. SQHB fits like this one. I've also had a flex tree and a tree free with the same luck. Sadly, this is the best fitting one I've had yet. So I was hoping to make up for it with a pad. With my Best Ever, it bridged. With a thin pad, this is what I get. She moves well in it. Hasn't gotten sore at all. We can't afford to keep buying and sending saddles back. Lol, 20% restocking fees every time. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | http://thecorrector.net/id27.html
I was reading on this site, part way down, about dry spots. And what they say seems to contradict dry spots always being a bad thing. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 342
Location: Alabama | rule of thumb i was taught in school was if the dry spots were bigger than your fist, it was fine. also, most people use to thick of a pad, i dont like more more the 7/8" if that. I use a CSI on both my horses, I know how frustrating it is, look into a full QH Bar with maybe a 6 &1/2 or 6 & 3/4 gullet.
My saddle of prefrence is the Jeremy Bethune Pro rider
i personally havent had good luck with a billy cook being a very versitlie fit
Edited by Barrelracingroper12 2015-09-10 11:40 AM
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Yes, unfortunately, they only offered one "size" for this particular saddle. After talking with my hubby, we have decided to send it back. Bah humbug. It really is a nice saddle though. I appreciate your opinions and recommendations. And the search continues.... |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Barrelracingroper12 - 2015-09-10 9:37 AM
rule of thumb i was taught in school was if the dry spots were bigger than your fist, it was fine. also, most people use to thick of a pad, i dont like more more the 7/8" if that. I use a CSI on both my horses, I know how frustrating it is, look into a full QH Bar with maybe a 6 &1/2 or 6 & 3/4 gullet.
My saddle of prefrence is the Jeremy Bethune Pro rider
i personally havent had good luck with a billy cook being a very versitlie fit
This saddle is a 7" gullet. And I know the "art" of sizing is different for each saddle, but wouldn't a smaller gullet pinch more-so? What do you guys think of triple creek saddles? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 342
Location: Alabama | i was seeing where you said a full QH bar was to big, its all in bar flair,was thinking maybe a bigger bar flair and smaller gullet may not make it so bad and offer more room through the shoulder area.
i've heard good reviews on triple creek saddle but never personally used one |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | ok-so, I would highly recommend the next bigger barrel race you have in your area, take your horse and walk around with a sign that says please help me fit this horse....if you find one that fits take a tape measure and measure as many area's as possible, that way you know what to look for even if you can't afford the saddle that fits the best! For example, for your horse I would look at an older sharon camarillo #38 tree-they are mid ninety's at the newest(unless they were special ordered)-look cool vintage but they serve a purpose, I have one-it's great and was CHEAP! |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | ~BINGO~ - 2015-09-10 2:18 PM Barrelracingroper12 - 2015-09-10 9:37 AM rule of thumb i was taught in school was if the dry spots were bigger than your fist, it was fine. also, most people use to thick of a pad, i dont like more more the 7/8" if that. I use a CSI on both my horses, I know how frustrating it is, look into a full QH Bar with maybe a 6 &1/2 or 6 & 3/4 gullet. My saddle of prefrence is the Jeremy Bethune Pro rider i personally havent had good luck with a billy cook being a very versitlie fit This saddle is a 7" gullet. And I know the "art" of sizing is different for each saddle, but wouldn't a smaller gullet pinch more-so? What do you guys think of triple creek saddles?
DO NOT get stuck on gullet size..... What is critical is the angle of the bars. No one needs a big ole' gullet.
Can you go to some of the larger races in your area and try saddles on him?
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Unfortunately, we don't have any races. There's one final gymkhana this weekend. And aside from that, flagstaff barrel season is done. We don't ever have jackpots or series going on. So if we want to hit them, we have to go to
Phoenix. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I believe your problem is the horse has some muscle atrophy in the wither area, this is why you are having difficulty finding a saddle.
You really can't determine if a saddle fits well unless you feel underneath it. If there is even pressure underneath then it fits.
Don't go by full quarter horse or semi quarter horse bars, as this is bull crap, all saddle makers build their saddles differently, ones semi will be another full.
If you like the billy cooks, sulphur Oklahoma are my favorite. I would try to find a 2030-2031 style these have the Lynn Mackenzie tree in them, my guess is the gullet may be a tad too wide, but the horse will fill into it with time.
I ride my colts in this saddle, and I use a csi pad. CSI distributes the pressure evenly throughout the flex plate so there shouldn't be any pressure points.
The csi pad also has enough support that a saddle that is slightly too wide will not dip down and pinch the wither.
The other option you will have is to shim the front.
If you have any other questions feel free to message me |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Thank you very much. That is helpful. Especially when it comes to trees. They vary so much and that's why I'm so skeptical about ordering any more. I've never realized how atrophied her muscles were. And it would make sense because I've always used narrower saddles on her. But I can see how a wider flare would benefit her. I'm not stuck on Billy Cook by any means. So any recommendations are welcome. I got lucky that they offered free returns for September. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| ~BINGO~ - 2015-09-11 10:35 AM
Thank you very much. That is helpful. Especially when it comes to trees. They vary so much and that's why I'm so skeptical about ordering any more. I've never realized how atrophied her muscles were. And it would make sense because I've always used narrower saddles on her. But I can see how a wider flare would benefit her. I'm not stuck on Billy Cook by any means. So any recommendations are welcome. I got lucky that they offered free returns for September.
It would be more helpful if you could take a side view picture and a picture of her back from behind her, this can give people an idea of her shape and give you suggestions.
If you can also put your price range just so people aren't wasting your time by suggesting something that is above it. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | My horse is built similar to yours and I ride him in a Tod Slone and while it doesn't fit perfect, I think it fits about as good as any saddle is going to fit, I had tried a wider Double J, Marlene McRae Special Effx, Ammerman, Cactus, and in the end, the TS barrel/roper combo fits the best. You might send some pics to Tod and he can recommend the best tree for your horse--I don't even know what mine is. =/
Those tall withers and slight atrophy are tricky to fit because you almost need something narrower in the gullet--but the correct angle as to not restrict the shoulder blade as it rolls back. That's my experiemce as least.
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | ~BINGO~ - 2015-09-10 5:41 PM Unfortunately, we don't have any races. There's one final gymkhana this weekend. And aside from that, flagstaff barrel season is done. We don't ever have jackpots or series going on. So if we want to hit them, we have to go to Phoenix.
Talk to Meleta. She knows her stuff and is really awesome. Her saddles are very well designed and one of them might be just what you're looking for. |
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 Cinnamon Honey One
Posts: 6549
Location: between here and there | I'm only going to reply on your photos you posted at the beginning on what I see. From a distance and the first ones in particular with no pad, the saddle looks low over the withers. You should be able to get a minimum of 2 fingers (stacked one on top of the other).
The other place of concern would be the way the back sides "tent" over the spine. Meaning, I see no contact on the backside with the tree underneath. That would mean more pressure in the frontend of the saddle.
Adding pad of any kind will change the fit so altho the padded saddle overall doesn't look that bad from the pictures, you must check without a pad when checking fit. Lay it on the back without a pad, not cinched and with the flat of your hand start up high at about the top front concho and slide your hand the length of the bars - all the way to the backend of the saddle. You should feel fairly even contact. There should not be any overly tight areas or any places where there is very little to no contact. When there is no contact in the center of the bars (right under where your thigh lays) that is what bridging is. NO contact what-so-ever. That would mean your saddle is in contact only on the 4 corners of your saddle, which obviously would make your horse very uncomfortable.
If it is too tight over the withers, you can actually chip away cartilage on the top of the wither. When you turn your horse, right or left, it will raise the wither another 1" at least. That said, one that doesn't have the 2 finger clearance is really asking for trouble.
On the shoulders, if the saddle is too tight for the shoulder to slide under the frontend at a minimum of 3" back and on some horses upto 6" back, his shoulder will run into the tree and he will be sore quickly. It also contributes to a very stiff trot and less extension of the front legs which will slow you down.
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