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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
  
| Can an owner legally knowingly withhold papers on a registered horse?
I just saw an unraced TB for sale, that they said they will not let it race so they will not let it's papers go with the horse. Can't this come back to bite the buyer? We have used papers in a court case to prove ownership, so if the horse DNA matches the papers and the papers still say they belong to that person, couldn't they take the horse back in court? Or am I not seeing this right? I feel like this is one way to ensure a slaughter bound horse right here. |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
 
| Yes |
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | They will probably give you a bill of sale. They can withold papers if they don't want the horse race in which case I would be asking why? Is it older, is it crippled? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| She's only a 2011, unraced, must be gone in 30 days (Or what?....this is such a strange thing to put in an add, like a threat almost). Says she's been basic dressage work but still green. Not sure why they wouldn't just put a racing restriction on her. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| Whiteboy - 2015-09-21 3:41 PM
Yes
Why? What is the reasoning for it? |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | In thoroughbreds, papers are not transferred like they are through AQHA. On the papers, the previous owner just signs the back. It is very common to sell horses without their papers. That way, if they were not breeding quality or racing quality, it helped to keep them from that. The Jockey Club does not monitor papers like the other breed associations. When horses race, the papers are sent to the track. When I worked on the breeding farms, it was almost impossible to try and track down papers we were looking for. Took a LOT of leg work. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| OK, I see now. I didn't realize Jockey Club didn't keep track like AQHA and APHA. That makes it a bit more less crazy to me. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-21 2:47 PM Whiteboy - 2015-09-21 3:41 PM Yes Why? What is the reasoning for it?
Papers are private property, issued by a private organization. There are and should be no laws that govern what a person does with the papers. It would be worthless to retain papers though, unless they don't actually have the correct papers. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| Whiteboy - 2015-09-21 3:54 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-21 2:47 PM Whiteboy - 2015-09-21 3:41 PM Yes Why? What is the reasoning for it?
The papers are for the horse. That's why it's illegal under the registry to represent a different horse under those papers. By that argument, those papers should be able to be used for anything if they are private property. "Oh don't have the horse anymore, I still have the papers and they are mine to do with whatever I want, so I'll just represent this horse under these papers, because they are mine. " - That wouldn't work. So they must have some laws of what they can and can't do with them, why shouldn't the papers belong to the horse it represents? |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | Are you able to even transfer jockey club papers into your name? I had a TB gelding that had his papers....but I don't think I ever found out how to get him in my name...I gave up lol. But this was several years ago...like 9 LOL |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| hoofs_in_motion - 2015-09-21 4:00 PM
Are you able to even transfer jockey club papers into your name? I had a TB gelding that had his papers....but I don't think I ever found out how to get him in my name...I gave up lol. But this was several years ago...like 9 LOL
It being Jockey Club is where the lines are getting fuzzy since they don't keep as close records as AQHA does. I know near nothing about JC, so not much help there. Only TB we have is a gelding we have his papers, but they hadn't been updated in several owners (since his racing owner 10 years ago. haha) |
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Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-21 3:06 PM
hoofs_in_motion - 2015-09-21 4:00 PM
Are you able to even transfer jockey club papers into your name? I had a TB gelding that had his papers....but I don't think I ever found out how to get him in my name...I gave up lol. But this was several years ago...like 9 LOL
It being Jockey Club is where the lines are getting fuzzy since they don't keep as close records as AQHA does. I know near nothing about JC, so not much help there. Only TB we have is a gelding we have his papers, but they hadn't been updated in several owners (since his racing owner 10 years ago. haha )
With Jockey Club papers, the person who owns the horse has their info on the back of the papers. There is no official record through the Jockey Club |
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Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | hoofs_in_motion - 2015-09-21 3:00 PM Are you able to even transfer jockey club papers into your name? I had a TB gelding that had his papers....but I don't think I ever found out how to get him in my name...I gave up lol. But this was several years ago...like 9 LOL
You don't have to send in papers for the Jockey Club. On the back of the papers the original owner signs them and you sign to go in your name. That's it. You can go on their website and do a owner transfer, but you don't have to send the papers in for a transfer. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-21 2:59 PM
Whiteboy - 2015-09-21 3:54 PM
FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-09-21 2:47 PM Whiteboy - 2015-09-21 3:41 PM Yes Why? What is the reasoning for it?
The papers are for the horse. That's why it's illegal under the registry to represent a different horse under those papers. By that argument, those papers should be able to be used for anything if they are private property. "Oh don't have the horse anymore, I still have the papers and they are mine to do with whatever I want, so I'll just represent this horse under these papers, because they are mine. " - That wouldn't work. So they must have some laws of what they can and can't do with them, why shouldn't the papers belong to the horse it represents?
I don't know the jockey club, but I have heard if the horse has a tattoo, then the jockey club will reissue papers to whoever has possession of the horse.
As for the laws pertaining to the papers belonging to the horse. Absolutely against it.
If I have a counterfeit, or a major conformation flaw, I want the option to pull the papers and send the horse through the auction, or can the horse. This will prevent back yard or people only breeding for papers from continuing the problem.
Aqha does have one rule in place but they don't seem to enforce it, the seller (current owner) is supposed to send the papers and transfer into aqha. Not the buyer. |
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| JOCKEY CLUB RECORDS WILL SHOW THE OWNER THE LAST TIME THE HORSE RAN A RACE. If you want a TB in your name the JC has a form to fill out to move you into the owner bracket which I would advise if you plan on breeding a mare to register her foals properly ...
AQHA charges you a one time fee of $50 to list a TB mare on a stallion breeding report .. good for life of the mare .. $100 fee to list your AQHA stallion to breed to paints ...
The owners of this TB have to be super dumb .. no one is going to race a coming 5 yo horse .. it is the same insanity some dog breeders have on not allowing you to breed a puppy you bought from one of their litters which proves the dogs are inbred or of very poor quality ...
Further more .. with so many OTTB's being given away free at TB tracks ... anyone that can sell a TB is very lucky!! The TB's you see for sale are usually freebies or $100 sale horses that qh stud owners and wannabe trainers buy thinking they can resell for 2-3k and make some easy money ... instead ... most end up with feed and vet bills .. lol
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2015-09-21 5:05 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| BARRELHORSE USA - 2015-09-21 5:59 PM
JOCKEY CLUB RECORDS WILL SHOW THE OWNER THE LAST TIME THE HORSE RAN A RACE. If you want a TB in your name the JC has a form to fill out to move you into the owner bracket which I would advise if you plan on breeding a mare to register her foals properly ...
AQHA charges you a one time fee of $50 to list a TB mare on a stallion breeding report .. good for life of the mare .. $100 fee to list your AQHA stallion to breed to paints ...
The owners of this TB have to be super dumb .. no one is going to race a coming 5 yo horse .. it is the same insanity some dog breeders have on not allowing you to breed a puppy you bought from one of their litters which proves the dogs are inbred or of very poor quality ...
Further more .. with so many OTTB's being given away free at TB tracks ... anyone that can sell a TB is very lucky!! The TB's you see for sale are usually freebies or $100 sale horses that qh stud owners and wannabe trainers buy thinking they can resell for 2-3k and make some easy money ... instead ... most end up with feed and vet bills .. lol
My thoughts exactly, why would you make it even harder to sell the horse, especially if you have time limit? The only people interested in this horse would be breeders (she's a nice looking mare).
They are asking $2,000 for an unraced TB, and isn't even going to let you have the papers. I just think the whole thing was ridiculous, but apparently others don't see how stupid that whole idea of taking the papers off of a perfectly good horse (unless it's not....who knows?). |
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Withholding Papers?