Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:08 PM Ok, I am dying to know, what is it with the wide gullet width on the barrel saddles. We've ridden horses pretty extensively and know a fair bit about saddle fit. All of our saddles have 6 1/4" or 6 1/2" gullets. I have never seen a horse that a 7" gullet fit, and you guys are taking about much bigger than that. Part of me thinks, "no wonder they don't fit". Am I missing something?

cheryl makofka - 2015-09-22 7:28 PM

Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder)

Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO.

I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up.

I tried the tod sloan b3
Lisa Lockhart extra wide
Charmayne James
Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree
Pozzi wide fit

Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle

Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood. I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better. One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit.

Three 4 Luck - 2015-09-22 9:32 PM The same horse that I ride in an 8" Martin also can wear a 6.5 in other brands if the angle of the bars is right. Martins are just weird.

barrelracr131 - 2015-09-23 5:17 AM  This is because the gullet size of a Martin is the bare tree measurement



I think the others measure the finished width of the gullet. 



 I have a Martin 8.5 but I'd guarantee it wouldn't measure that wide with a tape. 

cheryl makofka - 2015-09-22 10:28 PM Crown c philosophy is different, they have their gullets big to allow clearance of the shoulders, as well as they sit their saddles farther back (behind the shoulder) Also over the years the style of horses has changed, IMO. I have one horse that her back is like a barrel, the only saddle that fits her is an 11 gullet crown c, and I tried them all and they just sored her up. I tried the tod sloan b3 Lisa Lockhart extra wide Charmayne James Lynn Mackenzie nueva tree Pozzi wide fit Also people are more aware of muscle atrophy and are trying to prevent it. If your horse already has the atrophy, you may find their saddle fits, as the saddle has caused the muscle to waste away and conform to the saddle

Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM

Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood.

I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better.

One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit.

3canstorun - 2015-09-23 7:45 AM


On the saddle you have with the 11 inch gullett, would you mind taking a tape to it and showing us?   I have seen a lot of saddles and am a little older and have never seen one, in a store or otherwise. 

cheryl makofka - 2015-09-23 7:49 AM There is also new research being done to prove that a cinch should be set back to allow elbow clearance. I haven't read much on this. I was taught years ago that the cinch should be atleast one hand with behind the elbow, honestly this is difficult to do with most saddles. There are also making cinches that have the elbow relief, I am waiting till they come out in shearling to try one. Martins philosophy believes that the strongest part of the back is farther back, as the shoulders the bones can be manipulated in the shoulder as there is less muscle holding the scapula in place. If you call brain or Tracey at Martin they can explain it better. The problem I had with shoulder flare saddles, is the angles of the bars were never wide enough. The Lisa Lockhart extra wide was 120 degrees, my one horse this fit her, but there was too much rock in the tree it still caused pressure points. Martin customizes each saddle, so I could get a saddle that was wide enough and flat enough to not sore up my horse. The pozzi saddles I believe the widest tree is 90 degrees, they only measure one side so I believe their wide is 45 degrees. I have a saddle maker as a friend and she says the rule of thumb for many years was full quarterhorse bars was around 93 degrees. When I measured all my horses backs with a protractor, none of my horses backs were under 100 degrees with the exception to my 2 and 3 yr olds

Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:05 AM Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but.... 1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it. 2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front. 3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low. 4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses. 4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle. I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.

Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:05 AM Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but.... 1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it. 2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front. 3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low. 4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses. 4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle. I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.

rachellyn80 - 2015-09-23 7:50 AM

 I know that it wasn't until I made a run in my daughter's saddle a couple of months ago that I realized that I had been riding in a saddle that didn't fit me at all.  I've always preferred a bigger seat and exercise my horses in a ranch cutting saddle.  My Caldwell was a 14.5" and I loved it..until I made a run in my daughter's 14" Allen Ranch and wasn't struggling to stay up where I needed to be.  I've had a Crown C, Caldwell ProMax, Three Forks Merrill, Double J Record Breaker, and random others in the past ten years.  Hands down the best fitting, most comfortable saddle is my Allen Ranch that I bought the next day after using Pj's.  My Allen Ranch doesn't have a crazy wide gullet or a wide tree and it fits everything I've put it on with a pad change.  The pad I ride under it on my big mare is barely 1/2" thick and only weighs 24oz.  

The thing that I've noticed about the people that are riding the wide gullet Crown C's is that they stay tipped forward and fight their saddle rather than ride their horse.  My Crown C had a 7" gullet and it was just awkward to ride.  Barrel saddles aren't typically made in larger sizes...which also creates an issue for a person that actually needs a 16" seat and is wedged into a 14.5".  They have no idea how much more comfortable they would be and better able to ride in a cutting saddle that would allow them to move. 

wickedstepmother - 2015-09-23 9:59 AM YES!!! 100% Agreed! I ride in a true 15.5. Dad gave me one of his ranch saddles cause I didn't like training in barrel saddles cause tey just don't put you in the right spot to ride colts. IMO. I wish I could run barrels in that thing but it's HEAVY, lol. Either way, I agree with your post so much. If you are above a size 9 jeans, you need bigger than a 14.5 seat. My daughter rides in a 15 and she's a very fit 14 year old athlete. And before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I'm a fatty. So there. But think about the actual dynamics of where the saddle sits with an extra super wide saddle and then the tendency of people to ride in too small of a seat.

LMS - 2015-09-23 10:19 AM

I really do worry A LOT about saddle fit for my horses-I've been through 3-4 different saddles in the last 2-3 years, takes me awhile to realize when one fits the horse-but I've tipped several money winning barrels that the saddle doesn't fit ME, so went searching again found a saddle that fit me-or so I thought-flopped around like a large monkey-fit my horse good-found another with the same tree-smaller seat-but still flopped around-had a lower cantle- In the mean time my hubby had a head horse show up with white marks by the wither-OMG!  Bad saddle-need to find a new one!  Hubby says H$!! no!  I like the way that saddle holds me where I need to be!  He found CSI pads-we now have 4 of them and a set of shims-however, the shims NEVER get used.  I have a saddle that fits me well and puts me where I want to be and he has horses without white marks.  I'm one of the few that will put my own security ahead of my horses-besides if I can't ride the horse-what the heck does it matter if he's sore or not??  I must admit the crown c is a nice riding rig I used one for awhile from a friend, however, I always felt like I was tipped too far forward- like I was going over the front.  I bought a Mary Walker saddle that I love-so secure and I don't think it fits my horse too bad either-several say-oh its too narrow for my horse-but honestly, I've never had nicer sweat marks on 2 different horses than I do with this saddle.  BUT I will always use a CSI pad just to be sure.   They are the fad that has really proven to me their worth.

Herbie - 2015-09-23 11:31 AM Equibrand (Classic Equine/Martin Saddlery) has an advertising/marketing department that is equal to that of other major athletic companies we all recognize by just a slogan or their logo.  They do an outstanding job with advertising, endorsements, technical features, etc in getting these products out and showing us why we need them.  I have some good friends that work there and respect them as being leaders in our market.....I also work in the western market in manufacturing/marketing.  Through the years I have ridden almost every style or brand of saddle out there at one point or another trying to find a true balanced saddle that was both balanced on my horse, and encouraged me to ride balanced in the set.   That being said, I don't buy into the wide gullet philosophy, however I can see the importance of different bar spreads, bar flares, etc to accommodate those very wide backed, wide shouldered horses.....they certainly all aren't created equal.  What I have seen with the majority of the Crown C's I see people riding is a saddle that is sitting way down hill on a horse, the pommel is much lower than the cantle, even when shimmed.  Simple physics and the law of gravity proves that the lowest point of any object will bear the most weight.  I prefer for a saddle to sit balanced on a horse's back, and if anything, ride slightly uphill.  Kind of like pulling a gooseneck trailer....if the nose of your trailer is lower than the back, it's not going to pull very good, your truck isn’t going to ride very smooth, and it isn’t going to be efficient.  Raise the nose of the trailer to where it sits even or nose slightly higher than rear, it’s going to pull better and be more efficient on your truck, as the weight is more evenly distributed over the axles rather than all the weight being in the bed of your pickup. 



Occasionally I have a customer i'm riding a horse for or a kiddo i'm helping improve their horse and I see both the horse and jockey dumping on the front end and I try to put this in a term they can understand, so I compare the horse to a boat, and the rear of the horse to the motor of the boat.  If you're in a boat and the nose of the boat is down and the back is in the air a little bit, you're not going to get much propulsion to go forward.  Nor do you pack a bunch of cargo in the front of a boat.  If anything you pack it in the back and be sure it's packed evenly on the sides to make the boat travel most efficiently.  Same thing IMO with a saddle on a horse.  I want a balanced fit that is slightly uphill if anything, like a gooseneck trailer and a boat, to keep my horse's motor in the water and keep me balanced riding him. 



The folks at Equibrand are no dummies and they found a niche here to market these wide gullet saddles all the while creating an add-on sale with the shims.  I'm not saying there aren't some horses that can't benefit from a bit more room through the shoulder, but I admittedly cringe when I see these saddles on horses at barrel races that the pommel is 3 - 4" below the cantle even with shims. 

 

Herbie - 2015-09-23 11:31 AM Equibrand (Classic Equine/Martin Saddlery) has an advertising/marketing department that is equal to that of other major athletic companies we all recognize by just a slogan or their logo.  They do an outstanding job with advertising, endorsements, technical features, etc in getting these products out and showing us why we need them.  I have some good friends that work there and respect them as being leaders in our market.....I also work in the western market in manufacturing/marketing.  Through the years I have ridden almost every style or brand of saddle out there at one point or another trying to find a true balanced saddle that was both balanced on my horse, and encouraged me to have a balanced seat....meaning when I stand up in my stirrups, my feet don't automatically swing toward my horse's flank.   That being said, I don't buy into the wide gullet philosophy, however I can see the importance of different bar spreads, bar flares, etc to accommodate those very wide backed, wide shouldered horses.....they certainly all aren't created equal.  What I have seen with the majority of the Crown C's I see people riding is a saddle that is sitting way down hill on a horse, the pommel is much lower than the cantle, even when shimmed.  Simple physics and the law of gravity proves that the lowest point of any object will bear the most weight.  I prefer for a saddle to sit balanced on a horse's back, and if anything, ride slightly uphill.  Kind of like pulling a gooseneck trailer....if the nose of your trailer is lower than the back back of your trailer, it's not going to pull very good, your truck isn’t going to ride very smooth, and it isn’t going to be efficient.  Raise the nose of the trailer to where it sits even or nose slightly higher than rear, it’s going to pull better and be more efficient on your truck and for your truck, as the weight is more evenly distributed over the axles rather than all the weight being in the bed of your pickup. 



Occasionally I have a customer i'm riding a horse for or a kiddo i'm helping improve their horse and I see both the horse and jockey dumping on the front end and I try to put this in a term they can understand, so I compare the horse to a boat, and the rear of the horse to the motor of the boat.  If you're in a boat and the nose of the boat is down and the back is in the air a little bit, you're not going to get much propulsion to go forward.  Nor do you pack a bunch of cargo in the front of a boat.  If anything you pack it in the back and be sure it's packed evenly on the sides to make the boat travel most efficiently.  Same thing IMO with a saddle on a horse.  I want a balanced fit that is slightly uphill if anything, like a gooseneck trailer and a boat, to keep my horse's motor in the water and keep me balanced riding him. 



The folks at Equibrand are no dummies and they found a niche here to market these wide gullet saddles all the while creating an add-on sale with the shims.  I'm not saying there aren't some horses that can't benefit from a bit more room through the shoulder, but I admittedly cringe when I see these saddles on horses at barrel races that the pommel is 3 - 4" below the cantle even with shims. 

 

Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:40 AM Herbie, you and I sure seem to think very similar and you have a way of explaining things, that I think is easily understood. Thanks, and again I agree with what you wrote. A saddle should definitely fit balanced front to back and there is a lot of variation from just gullet width, even down to how a maker builds the saddle. Here is a picture of one of my Harry Jones roping saddles. It fit this horse like a glove. I am not incredibly knowledgeable about barrel horses, but I see no reason why a barrel saddle should fit any different than a roping or cutting saddle. The same basic principles of saddle fit should apply, universally.

LMS - 2015-09-23 10:33 AM Don't forget CSI has 2 different size liners that might help.  Honestly I rope with the thinner liner on my heel horse-but his rope saddle fits him so well, I think I could use a napkin.  The head horses all have the thicker liner in their CSI.   Sorry to get off track, but wanted to emphasize, that I've tried ALL the types of pads that are on the market.  Most have a place but if your saddle doesn't fit perfectly look into a CSI. (wish I sold them after all the rah rah I've given them) 

hammer_time - 2015-09-23 3:12 PM PS TDove anytime I see one of your horses i am drooling. Next time I need a horse I'm heading your way!!!!'

Herbie - 2015-09-23 11:59 AM Agreed, cavyrunsbarrels, 100%.  Unfortunately I see this at leat 70% of the time with those riding Crown C's.  I'm not loyal to any one brand or any one style of saddle.  There are several I like that I feel ride balanced.  I'm just saying I am fully aware of the power of a good marketing department, advertising, and endorsements.  :) 



Tdove, totally agree with you.  Libby Hurley has had a saddle made for years on a roping saddle tree (Toots Mansfield tree maybe, i'm sorry Libby if i'm wrong there and feel free to correct me), but that saddle just wrapped around a horse.  It's one of the few saddles I wish i'd never sold. 



 

SmokinGirlie - 2015-09-23 2:56 PM I had my mare fit by a Martin Rep at an 8.5, custom ordered my Crown C saddle after I sold EVERYTHING I had previously been using to afford it. Got my saddle, made my first run and my mare stopped dead in her tracks between the 1st and 2nd barrel.....?! Tried it another run, same thing. I called Martin and ended up sending my saddle back convinced there was something wrong with the tree. In the mean time I kept one of my Carl Ammerman's (6 3/4 gullet, which I had ran her in previously) and smoked a 1D run the following weekend.



When I got my Martin back I sold it, way too skeptical for me, my mare has never done anything naughty or weird EVER.  Then I began the saddle hunt, I had been using a Cactus Charmayne James until I recently purchased my Tami Semas. 

wimpyb - 2015-09-23 7:48 PM Good read ladies! The only things I would add is, just like jeans, you gotta try them on first. We aren't all made alike either. I do see a difference in backs on our horses. Sure some haven't changed but I do see some changes that made me start working on new tree designs lately. I do think there have been alot of saddle fit changes made as well. Some should be tossed out the door with the wash and some have made others start diving in on changes without knowing about the horses and how they move - at all. Sad but true. I personally started this journey when I had my retail store and mail order business and many customers are what made me get interested in saddle fit. Generally, we rode in whatever we had. Be it a trail or work saddle. If our horse objected to being ridden, it was because "he figured it out" or we changed bits or sometimes forced them into behaving to do whatever we wanted done. 20 yrs of working in this field, I know I'm still learning. I do know I was one of the first on the block to do changes and demand changes be made. I'm glad I did, but there sure has been an influx of problems. On horses gullet sizes, my take is, most all horses are built like a triangle on the shoulders, meaning they get wider the farther down the shoulder goes. /\ Not that drastic but you get the idea. When you widen the gullet, it will lay further down on the shoulder. Shimming it will hold it up to some degree. Not all horses are built in a wedge shape from front to back - narrower on the wither to wider on the loin. The loin is the weakest point of the back and not to have a great deal of weight that far back from an ill fitting saddle or a large rider that rides their cantle. Widening the gullet, will lay it down further on the shoulders. Ok, you set it behind the shoulders. What happens then is the shoulder needs to slide under that tree - not into it. So, it needs to be flared enough to allow that. Shoulders will slide anywhere from 3" to 6" depending on the lay of the shoulder angle. Have I lost you yet??? lol

wimpyb - 2015-09-23 5:48 PM

Good read ladies! The only things I would add is, just like jeans, you gotta try them on first. We aren't all made alike either. I do see a difference in backs on our horses. Sure some haven't changed but I do see some changes that made me start working on new tree designs lately. I do think there have been alot of saddle fit changes made as well. Some should be tossed out the door with the wash and some have made others start diving in on changes without knowing about the horses and how they move - at all. Sad but true.
I personally started this journey when I had my retail store and mail order business and many customers are what made me get interested in saddle fit. Generally, we rode in whatever we had. Be it a trail or work saddle. If our horse objected to being ridden, it was because "he figured it out" or we changed bits or sometimes forced them into behaving to do whatever we wanted done. 20 yrs of working in this field, I know I'm still learning. I do know I was one of the first on the block to do changes and demand changes be made. I'm glad I did, but there sure has been an influx of problems.

On horses gullet sizes, my take is, most all horses are built like a triangle on the shoulders, meaning they get wider the farther down the shoulder goes. /\ Not that drastic but you get the idea. When you widen the gullet, it will lay further down on the shoulder. Shimming it will hold it up to some degree. Not all horses are built in a wedge shape from front to back - narrower on the wither to wider on the loin. The loin is the weakest point of the back and not to have a great deal of weight that far back from an ill fitting saddle or a large rider that rides their cantle. Widening the gullet, will lay it down further on the shoulders. Ok, you set it behind the shoulders. What happens then is the shoulder needs to slide under that tree - not into it. So, it needs to be flared enough to allow that. Shoulders will slide anywhere from 3" to 6" depending on the lay of the shoulder angle. Have I lost you yet??? lol

redmansmyman11 - 2015-09-24 12:23 AM


so quick question about saddle rock, when you can rock the saddle a bit (Front to back) on your horses back is that necessarily all that bad? That's the one burning saddle question I've had and it seems like in relation to larger tree sizes you don't see that as much but I think its because everything is just so dumped down on the horse?

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:42 AM

Well I have a buckskin elephant that I am trying to fit. It's not sweat marks I worry about but not being able to tighten the saddle enough for the saddle NOT to roll when I mount.....or turn a barrel at speed.

I used to say that she is flat backed and mutton withered, but then I REALLY looked at her and she HAS a decent wither, but it is buried in muscle. To further complicate the issue she is short backed so there is no room to set a saddle back. I swear, if I took a protractor to her back I would get a reverse angle flare. I have tried a halflinger and a draft horse tree and neither was flat enough through the bars. Only the bottom third of the bar was actually making contact with her back. I tried one of Meleta's saddles on her and it rolls, just like every other saddle I have tried so far. I also tried a Caldwell (one of the wider trees) and it hurt me just to walk around in and nearly crippled me when I tried to lope through a pattern....and it rolled.

Since she is not finished, I cannot justify a custom made saddle for her, and the one saddle I had made to order on a specific tree I sold, because it was uncomfortable and impossible for me to ride effectively in. I did think that hubby's Billy Cook rope saddle fits her much better. I SO wish I still had one of the fly weight BC cutting saddles I rode in for years! But cannot ride the BC barrel saddles I have tried.

So FQHB don't work, what then are my options? I've been looking for a Lisa Lockhart to try next (this mare looks like she could be Louie's sister....maybe even his big sister, lol). The flex aspect of it makes me doubtful as my Circle Y Special EFFX is a rolling piece of crap on her too. The 8" gullet I ride her in now seems OK but the flare does not.

Grrrrr!

As for seat size I am not small but can ride comfortably in a 14" seat....until I run barrels. I need a 15" to be able to use the saddle horn effectively, I found that I pull myself down in a 14 instead of locking myself in. I also cannot stand a high cantle (low back issues) and HATE a deep seat, I want a flat seat where I can get over my legs instead of riding behind them. In an English saddle your seat size is determined by the length of your thigh NOT the size of your butt and I have to think that a western saddle is not so different.

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:42 AM Well I have a buckskin elephant that I am trying to fit. It's not sweat marks I worry about but not being able to tighten the saddle enough for the saddle NOT to roll when I mount.....or turn a barrel at speed. I used to say that she is flat backed and mutton withered, but then I REALLY looked at her and she HAS a decent wither, but it is buried in muscle. To further complicate the issue she is short backed so there is no room to set a saddle back. I swear, if I took a protractor to her back I would get a reverse angle flare. I have tried a halflinger and a draft horse tree and neither was flat enough through the bars. Only the bottom third of the bar was actually making contact with her back. I tried one of Meleta's saddles on her and it rolls, just like every other saddle I have tried so far. I also tried a Caldwell (one of the wider trees) and it hurt me just to walk around in and nearly crippled me when I tried to lope through a pattern....and it rolled. Since she is not finished, I cannot justify a custom made saddle for her, and the one saddle I had made to order on a specific tree I sold, because it was uncomfortable and impossible for me to ride effectively in. I did think that hubby's Billy Cook rope saddle fits her much better. I SO wish I still had one of the fly weight BC cutting saddles I rode in for years! But cannot ride the BC barrel saddles I have tried. So FQHB don't work, what then are my options? I've been looking for a Lisa Lockhart to try next (this mare looks like she could be Louie's sister....maybe even his big sister, lol). The flex aspect of it makes me doubtful as my Circle Y Special EFFX is a rolling piece of crap on her too. The 8" gullet I ride her in now seems OK but the flare does not. Grrrrr! As for seat size I am not small but can ride comfortably in a 14" seat....until I run barrels. I need a 15" to be able to use the saddle horn effectively, I found that I pull myself down in a 14 instead of locking myself in. I also cannot stand a high cantle (low back issues) and HATE a deep seat, I want a flat seat where I can get over my legs instead of riding behind them. In an English saddle your seat size is determined by the length of your thigh NOT the size of your butt and I have to think that a western saddle is not so different.

MS2011 - 2015-09-23 4:48 PM How do you like the TAmi Semas?  I love my current saddle, but that's kinda on my wish list of things I'd like in my tackroom.

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:42 AM Well I have a buckskin elephant that I am trying to fit. It's not sweat marks I worry about but not being able to tighten the saddle enough for the saddle NOT to roll when I mount.....or turn a barrel at speed. I used to say that she is flat backed and mutton withered, but then I REALLY looked at her and she HAS a decent wither, but it is buried in muscle. To further complicate the issue she is short backed so there is no room to set a saddle back. I swear, if I took a protractor to her back I would get a reverse angle flare. I have tried a halflinger and a draft horse tree and neither was flat enough through the bars. Only the bottom third of the bar was actually making contact with her back. I tried one of Meleta's saddles on her and it rolls, just like every other saddle I have tried so far. I also tried a Caldwell (one of the wider trees) and it hurt me just to walk around in and nearly crippled me when I tried to lope through a pattern....and it rolled. Since she is not finished, I cannot justify a custom made saddle for her, and the one saddle I had made to order on a specific tree I sold, because it was uncomfortable and impossible for me to ride effectively in. I did think that hubby's Billy Cook rope saddle fits her much better. I SO wish I still had one of the fly weight BC cutting saddles I rode in for years! But cannot ride the BC barrel saddles I have tried. So FQHB don't work, what then are my options? I've been looking for a Lisa Lockhart to try next (this mare looks like she could be Louie's sister....maybe even his big sister, lol). The flex aspect of it makes me doubtful as my Circle Y Special EFFX is a rolling piece of crap on her too. The 8" gullet I ride her in now seems OK but the flare does not. Grrrrr! As for seat size I am not small but can ride comfortably in a 14" seat....until I run barrels. I need a 15" to be able to use the saddle horn effectively, I found that I pull myself down in a 14 instead of locking myself in. I also cannot stand a high cantle (low back issues) and HATE a deep seat, I want a flat seat where I can get over my legs instead of riding behind them. In an English saddle your seat size is determined by the length of your thigh NOT the size of your butt and I have to think that a western saddle is not so different.

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:42 AM

Well I have a buckskin elephant that I am trying to fit. It's not sweat marks I worry about but not being able to tighten the saddle enough for the saddle NOT to roll when I mount.....or turn a barrel at speed.

I used to say that she is flat backed and mutton withered, but then I REALLY looked at her and she HAS a decent wither, but it is buried in muscle. To further complicate the issue she is short backed so there is no room to set a saddle back. I swear, if I took a protractor to her back I would get a reverse angle flare. I have tried a halflinger and a draft horse tree and neither was flat enough through the bars. Only the bottom third of the bar was actually making contact with her back. I tried one of Meleta's saddles on her and it rolls, just like every other saddle I have tried so far. I also tried a Caldwell (one of the wider trees) and it hurt me just to walk around in and nearly crippled me when I tried to lope through a pattern....and it rolled.

Since she is not finished, I cannot justify a custom made saddle for her, and the one saddle I had made to order on a specific tree I sold, because it was uncomfortable and impossible for me to ride effectively in. I did think that hubby's Billy Cook rope saddle fits her much better. I SO wish I still had one of the fly weight BC cutting saddles I rode in for years! But cannot ride the BC barrel saddles I have tried.

So FQHB don't work, what then are my options? I've been looking for a Lisa Lockhart to try next (this mare looks like she could be Louie's sister....maybe even his big sister, lol). The flex aspect of it makes me doubtful as my Circle Y Special EFFX is a rolling piece of crap on her too. The 8" gullet I ride her in now seems OK but the flare does not.

Grrrrr!

As for seat size I am not small but can ride comfortably in a 14" seat....until I run barrels. I need a 15" to be able to use the saddle horn effectively, I found that I pull myself down in a 14 instead of locking myself in. I also cannot stand a high cantle (low back issues) and HATE a deep seat, I want a flat seat where I can get over my legs instead of riding behind them. In an English saddle your seat size is determined by the length of your thigh NOT the size of your butt and I have to think that a western saddle is not so different.

Trippin - 2015-09-24 11:48 AM

So much to take in.
What about the Tammy & Jackie treeless saddles? Whats the fit experts thoughts on them?

Herbie - 2015-09-24 8:59 AM


You should contact Libby Hurley.  Her saddle is made on a wide roping type tree.  It's a flatter seat with a lower pomel and cantle.  I had a horse years ago exactly like you're describing and it worked for her.  As a 4 YO she had those big wide shoulders and was just ultra wide throughout.  She did change as she matured and got some wither and then it wasn't such an issue. 

Also, a saddleright pad will help with the stability.  My current horse isn't round backed and does have a decent wither, but sucker will turn out from under you and leave you and your saddle hanging in thin air and off the side.  I do have to snug my girth up a bit tighter than I want to, but without my saddleright, I feel like i'm riding a loose hided bucking bull.  I've kept a saddleright pad around for years, but this is the first horse i've actually used it on consistently. 

Herbie - 2015-09-24 1:47 PM

Those are OLD makers.  They're now made by Epic and appear to be VERY flat seated to me, like a roping saddle.  Good luck!

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:37 PM Unfortunately, I already use a Saddleright, so cross that possibility off the list. I will look into the Libby Hurley tho. Thanks CM! edited to add: Just looked at the Libby Hurley saddles and found ones made by Circle Y and by Ammerman. Both had too much rise in the seat and too high a cantle. Sigh

Tdove - 2015-09-23 9:05 AM Ok, I watched that video and I probably should just keep my mouth shut, but.... 1. It looks to me like the philosophy is to get a tree too wide for your horse and then shim it up to attempt to fit it. 2. It looks to me like the saddle fits in the correct spot, front to back (that is where all saddles should fit and a good fitting saddle does), but Martin just chopped off the front of the bars. I don't see where their saddle is anything but traditional, just with wider gullet and less bar up front. 3. That saddle even after the shim was WAY too wide for that horse. Even after the shim and saddle pad was added it fit way to low. 4. When a horse matures the width of the back is pretty much set in stone. That is the measurement side to side. If the back builds mass, then the only thing that would change is the angle. I ride all my saddles with a 6 1/4" tree and it will fit some pretty wide backed horses. 4. This might irritate some, but if Sherry wants to build that muscle up on the back, she should get the horse rounded in the back more and quite trotting it around with its head in the clouds and hollowed out in the back. I respect her tremendously, but riding a horse around like that is what atrophies the back, not the saddle. I was going into this open minded. But what I have seen so far makes no sense, to me (perhaps I am just wrong, it wouldn't be the first time). It does seem like more and more barrel horses are getting sore backs? I have talked to several custom saddle makers and they tell me the reason they don't make many barrel saddles is that barrel racers don't want to pay what it cost for a custom saddle. That confuses me, because barrel racers spend an incredible amount of money for the best horse and therapy products to keep them healthy. The best money I ever spent on any horse was a hand made, top maker saddle. I would bet if more people did this and fit them traditionally, back soreness would decrease considerably.

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 1:37 PM Unfortunately, I already use a Saddleright, so cross that possibility off the list. I will look into the Libby Hurley tho. Thanks CM! edited to add: Just looked at the Libby Hurley saddles and found ones made by Circle Y and by Ammerman. Both had too much rise in the seat and too high a cantle. Sigh

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 2:10 PM

If it gives y'all any idea of this mare...Any saddle ends up feeling like you are sitting on a draft horse(and I know because I used to keep hubby's draft cross legged up and he is about 17.2 and weighed in at #1850). Anyone that gets on her complains about sore inner thighs after being on just a few minutes.

And Rachelnelly, if you didn't already see, I edited my previous post to sat that I HAD seen the Epics and too much rise and no indication of twist of bars to try and fit this mare. But thanks for the suggestions....keep 'em coming...especially if you have a wide saddle I can actually try on this mare, lol.

rodeoveteran - 2015-09-24 2:10 PM If it gives y'all any idea of this mare...Any saddle ends up feeling like you are sitting on a draft horse(and I know because I used to keep hubby's draft cross legged up and he is about 17.2 and weighed in at #1850). Anyone that gets on her complains about sore inner thighs after being on just a few minutes. And Rachelnelly, if you didn't already see, I edited my previous post to sat that I HAD seen the Epics and too much rise and no indication of twist of bars to try and fit this mare. But thanks for the suggestions....keep 'em coming...especially if you have a wide saddle I can actually try on this mare, lol.

Tdove - 2015-09-22 9:41 PM

Is it only Martin? I don't know why a barrel horse would be any different than any other horse. As far as backs changing, I would think barrel horses today would have narrower backs due to more TB blood.

I cannot see how moving the saddle back is good. How do they get the front cinch to fit correctly? I want my saddles up forward. If angles are right and re shoulder flare is correct don't see how you can get much better.

One thing I know to be correct is that a good fitting saddle can do so with any pad almost, and shimming by definition means your saddle doesn't fit. Altering padding to fit saddles is not near as good as altering saddle fit.

svincent - 2015-09-22 9:56 PM


Why does it need an obscene gullet for shoulder clearance when it sits BEHIND the shoulder. That doesn't even make sense.

Martin has an outstanding marketing strategist, that's for sure.

Herbie - 2015-09-24 2:47 PM Those are OLD makers.  They're now made by Epic and appear to be VERY flat seated to me, like a roping saddle.  Good luck!

slacy09 - 2018-02-13 3:12 PM I ride in a treeless saddle....seems that a treeless would take out all the worry about angels of the tree bars, etc.   

TXBarrelRacer84 - 2018-02-13 3:23 PM You would think, but literally I had a TF treeless that did not fit my mare.  It wouldn't stay tight, rolled and when you set it on her bareback it wouldn't even sit down on her.  Guess maybe she needed a wide.  I didn't ride well in it at all, so I sold it and had a tree made for her and back in a treed saddle.  So much happier.  She is wide-backed with hardly any withers, it was about bar angle for her not gullet size for sure.