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 Elite Veteran
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Location: West Texas | While I post on here often, with information and opinion. I also learn a great deal from here as well. Something that I have seen Herbie mention a couple of times is synthetic vitamins and minerals negatively affecting horses health.
If anyone can provide insight into the reasoning behind this, I am quite interested and ready to learn. Thanks!
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-29 12:41 PM
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
 
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I know THE uses only natural. I'll see if I can get some info to share here on the why's of using natural, other than for obvious reasons. |
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 Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Tdove, you should post this question on www.secondvet.com, as it would be an interesting read for alot of us. Basically sythetics contribute to the inflammation and aggravation in the hind gut, which then affects assimilation of all nutrients, which then requires us to feed more. The inflammation in the hind gut causes the immune system to become a bit over reactive and affects the immune respose to issues which would normally be fought off without hesitation, often leading to what we see as chronic inflammatory issues from allergies, chronic joint issues, chronic digestive issues, etc. What I have learned this year is that every function and issue we have in the body....unless it is an acute injury.....is related to the gut. When inflammation is present in the gut, there will be inflammation present elsewhere in the body, which can lead to very serious issues down the road if left unattended.
When you read the label of your feed and/or supplements, if in the ingredient list there are vitamins and minerals listed such as Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous, etc.....these are not naturally occuring vitamins and minerals. These sythetics are added to the ration to try to balance the vit/min levels, and are also proven to be contributing factors to the inflammation in the hind gut. |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: West Texas | Herbie, are all added vitamins/minerals in commercial mixes synthetic? What about mineral blocks? |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Nevertooold - 2015-09-29 1:44 PM I couldn't find the info but realized it went back to the early 1980's and it started with dog food and she expanded from there. She actually did jail time standing behind her findings and beliefs.
I had some great info about vitamins and minerals and our farm fields being over used and the effect it has on us and our animals. She also had a great paper about the One a Day vitamins how worthless they were.
I have learned that if you find a really good article on the internet, you better make a hard copy as many of the good articles I have found in the past have now disappeared from the internet.
Search using:
http://www.googlescholar.com |
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Tdove - 2015-09-29 1:39 PM Herbie, are all added vitamins/minerals in commercial mixes synthetic? What about mineral blocks?
Tdove, if they are added to the ration to balance it and listed as the actual vitamin or mineral on the ingredients list, then yes, they are synthetic. I'm not sure about mineral blocks, as I don't use them, but my guess is that yes, they too are synthetics as well.
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Here's some good info.
It's interesting to read about synthetic vitamins and minerals.
http://www.biostarus.com/Equine-WholeFoodDiet-a/267.htm
Grains are sorted at processing plants and graded. Superior graded grains go to human consumption. Lower graded grains go to animal consumption. By- products of the processing (soy hulls, wheat middlings for instance) become inexpensive fillers for horse feed. Because the grains for animals are nutritionally lower than the human graded grains, feed companies must add synthetic additives to provide nutrients. These synthetic additives (including vitamins) are made from coal tar derivatives, petroleum extracts, acetone, formaldehyde, and irradiated cattle brains (vitamin D). The processing of the grains themselves can expose the grains to temperatures exceeding 450 degrees. Enzymes and other nutrients can’t survive in temperatures exceeding 145 degrees.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 576
| herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | It turned me off when I saw liquid 747 had d-activated animal sterol listed as an ingredient. I will now only feed THE if I want a vitamin/mineral supplement. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | This is a great explanation.
http://www.equiworld.net/feeding/articles/o/traceminerals.htm
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | kaleydanielle - 2015-09-29 2:06 PM herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? I was forced to find a better way, as I was looking at having to euthanize my horse. I didn't go this route at first, as I too was skeptical, but I can tell you that if your horse's hindgut is working like it should, he will utilize everything he eats. I stumbled across the Cur-OST company when googling and trying to find ways to help my horse. Dr. Schell, the creator of the product, is the one who I credit for getting me on this path and taking the time to explain things in terms I can wrap my pea brain around.
I have never tested my hay, but I do feed alfalfa once daily, 2 flakes (the other half of the day my horses go out on grass). I feed 1 pound of whole oats once daily and only use the oats as a medium in which to mix my Cur-Ost. The oats are not intended to be a source of nutrition necessarily. As far as me knowing if he's getting everything he needs......the proof is in the pudding for me. I know my horse and have seen him at his worst. So many of the issues we had even before he got sick are gone, and he's a completely different horse than before. We went on a trail ride this past Sunday and some of my friends who haven't seen him since last year were blown away at how different he is not only physically but mentally as well.
Edited by Herbie 2015-09-29 2:24 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 617
Location: London Ontario | Other then THE and Cur-Ost are there any other supplements? |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| Herbie - 2015-09-29 12:20 PM
kaleydanielle - 2015-09-29 2:06 PM herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? I was forced to find a better way, as I was looking at having to euthanize my horse. I didn't go this route at first, as I too was skeptical, but I can tell you that if your horse's hindgut is working like it should, he will utilize everything he eats. I stumbled across the Cur-OST company when googling and trying to find ways to help my horse. Dr. Schell, the creator of the product, is the one who I credit for getting me on this path and taking the time to explain things in terms I can wrap my pea brain around.
I have never tested my hay, but I do feed alfalfa once daily, 2 flakes (the other half of the day my horses go out on grass). I feed 1 pound of whole oats once daily and only use the oats as a medium in which to mix my Cur-Ost. The oats are not intended to be a source of nutrition necessarily. As far as me knowing if he's getting everything he needs......the proof is in the pudding for me. I know my horse and have seen him at his worst. So many of the issues we had even before he got sick are gone, and he's a completely different horse than before. We went on a trail ride this past Sunday and some of my friends who haven't seen him since last year were blown away at how different he is not only physically but mentally as well.
Hey Herbie! He looks like he should be tied to my trailer!!! He would fit right in!  |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| MC1993 - 2015-09-29 2:27 PM
Other then THE and Cur-Ost are there any other supplements?
Yes, I believe Standard Process is. They are whole food supplements for people and horses. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Herbie - 2015-09-29 2:20 PM
kaleydanielle - 2015-09-29 2:06 PM herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? I was forced to find a better way, as I was looking at having to euthanize my horse. I didn't go this route at first, as I too was skeptical, but I can tell you that if your horse's hindgut is working like it should, he will utilize everything he eats. I stumbled across the Cur-OST company when googling and trying to find ways to help my horse. Dr. Schell, the creator of the product, is the one who I credit for getting me on this path and taking the time to explain things in terms I can wrap my pea brain around.
I have never tested my hay, but I do feed alfalfa once daily, 2 flakes (the other half of the day my horses go out on grass). I feed 1 pound of whole oats once daily and only use the oats as a medium in which to mix my Cur-Ost. The oats are not intended to be a source of nutrition necessarily. As far as me knowing if he's getting everything he needs......the proof is in the pudding for me. I know my horse and have seen him at his worst. So many of the issues we had even before he got sick are gone, and he's a completely different horse than before. We went on a trail ride this past Sunday and some of my friends who haven't seen him since last year were blown away at how different he is not only physically but mentally as well.
Herbie, I am very much a believer in the proof is in the pudding. I have been testing the conventional wisdom of feeding and continue to do so and learn. I want to share the reason that I am asking. Over the years, I have come to think that byproducts are void of many vitamins and mineral and thus this has to be added back into the ration. While I certainly did not believe in the low quality nutrition of byproducts, I had never really questioned the healthiness of the added minerals, until your posts on the subject. Since then I have been thinking about my experiences and some of the effects I have seen of my feeding program that I couldn't exactly explain.
Since switching and developing the Omnis cube, we have been able to reduce how much we fed and never seen our horses healthier. It has been a year a half since we have given them a vitamin/mineral. We did have this one filly that was always a very hard keeper. She suffered from ulcer symptoms and was always prone to being really sore. Even after we switched to Omnis, we gave her extra commercial concentrate to keep her weight and somewhat condition. About 5 months ago, we finally decided to take her off of everything but Omnis. She has since bloomed and her soreness and ulcer symptoms have gone away. She now looks just as good as the rest.
This has really got me to thinking about the synthetic minerals and I am now thinking that was the issue. Many times people are questioning of us not feeding a vitamin/mineral supplement. But again, the proof is in the pudding and I am wanting to learn about this more, because mineral supplementation is EVERYWHERE.
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-29 2:52 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Question
For the people giving cur-ost and tdove, do your horses get free choice minerals? Do you give your horses salt? |
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | cheryl makofka - 2015-09-29 2:49 PM Question For the people giving cur-ost and tdove, do your horses get free choice minerals? Do you give your horses salt?
I do have salt blocks out in every pen and in every stall. I don't have loose minerals out. The salt blocks haven't been touched all summer by any of my horses. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | On the show horses in stalls, we don't give them any kind of mineral or salt block. All of the horses get 19-24 lbs of Omnis and nothing else whatsoever. There is some added salt and natural mineral in the cubes via sodium bentonite. The whole oats and whole flax balance the alfalfa nicely and alfalfa is very nutrient dense and the Candian soils are very rich in nutrients as well. This is not an advertisement for Omnis. It is just my experience and what we feed. However, I do feel the Canadian soils are giving us high levels of bloom. We have seen that in both the baled hay and cubes we have fed compared to local or other sources.
Here is my proof is in the pudding (The horse I was talking about in previous posts is the buckskin in the first picture. She has filled out even more now)
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-29 4:21 PM
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Tdove - 2015-09-29 3:58 PM On the show horses in stalls, we don't give them any kind of mineral or salt block. All of the horses get 19-24 lbs of Omnis and nothing else whatsoever. There is some added salt and natural mineral in the cubes via sodium bentonite. The whole oats and whole flax balance the alfalfa nicely and alfalfa is very nutrient dense and the Candian soils are very rich in nutrients as well. This is not an advertisement for Omnis. It is just my experience and what we feed. However, I do feel the Canadian soils are giving us high levels of bloom. We have seen that in both the baled hay and cubes we have fed compared to local or other sources. Here is my proof is in the pudding (The horse I was talking about in previous posts is the buckskin in the first picture. She has filled out even more now)
In the words of the great poet, Billy Currington  , "Must be doin' something right......."! And those horses are sexier than that video. HAHA Very nice, Tdove! |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Tdove - 2015-09-29 3:58 PM
On the show horses in stalls, we don't give them any kind of mineral or salt block. All of the horses get 19-24 lbs of Omnis and nothing else whatsoever. There is some added salt and natural mineral in the cubes via sodium bentonite. The whole oats and whole flax balance the alfalfa nicely and alfalfa is very nutrient dense and the Candian soils are very rich in nutrients as well. This is not an advertisement for Omnis. It is just my experience and what we feed. However, I do feel the Canadian soils are giving us high levels of bloom. We have seen that in both the baled hay and cubes we have fed compared to local or other sources.
Here is my proof is in the pudding (The horse I was talking about in previous posts is the buckskin in the first picture. She has filled out even more now)
Not all Canadian soils are rich in nutrients.
Where I live we have absolutely no selenium, to the point if we don't administer selenium to cows, and horses, we see the deficiency immediately in the offspring.
Also in our crops we don't fertilize, we rotate crops. |
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Blessed 
Location: Here | Herbie - 2015-09-29 1:20 PM Tdove, you should post this question on www.secondvet.com, as it would be an interesting read for alot of us. Basically sythetics contribute to the inflammation and aggravation in the hind gut, which then affects assimilation of all nutrients, which then requires us to feed more. The inflammation in the hind gut causes the immune system to become a bit over reactive and affects the immune respose to issues which would normally be fought off without hesitation, often leading to what we see as chronic inflammatory issues from allergies, chronic joint issues, chronic digestive issues, etc. What I have learned this year is that every function and issue we have in the body....unless it is an acute injury.....is related to the gut. When inflammation is present in the gut, there will be inflammation present elsewhere in the body, which can lead to very serious issues down the road if left unattended.
When you read the label of your feed and/or supplements, if in the ingredient list there are vitamins and minerals listed such as Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous, etc.....these are not naturally occuring vitamins and minerals. These sythetics are added to the ration to try to balance the vit/min levels, and are also proven to be contributing factors to the inflammation in the hind gut.
You are exactly correct about the Gut. 80 % of our immune system comes from the gut. The body can't process the synthetic . And I personally know if I come incontact with sythetic I get immediately sick. I think I was the only child that couldn't eat flintstone vitamins.. |
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Blessed
Location: Here | I feed the loose natural salt or sea salt. Always have. I am not a fan of loose mineral especially when it is loaded with sugar.. Most animals aka deer get what they need from the forage and from nature if you give the animal the opportunity.
Since I have learned to eat properly (thanks NTO for saving my life and no that isn't an exaggeration it is the truth) I have learned that eating REAL foods is more important for us than anything. Learning to listen to your body and trust the good cravings you will be healthy. Our horses are no different |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I have a question. Since minerals are elements of the earth, how do you make synthetic ones? I've heard of synthetic vits but never synthetic minerals. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2015-09-29 8:39 PM I have a question. Since minerals are elements of the earth, how do you make synthetic ones? I've heard of synthetic vits but never synthetic minerals.
"All minerals used in nutrient manufacture are basically dirt. The iron, calcium, zinc etc. are just mined ore, pulverized and powdered to a fine dust. This doesn't make it any easier to assimilate...Modern research shows us that minerals of this type are 99% inassimilable. The manufacturers response to this is to add pig digestive enzymes, which supposedly pre-digests it or chelates it, in their attempts to force our body to accept this toxic material. Is this practice of chelating minerals really to our benefit or a dangerous act of ignorance?"
http://www.foodkills.org/synthetics.html
http://www.doctorsresearch.com/articles3.html |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota |  This is fascinating. But also slightly disturbing. I've been so happy with with my Progressive Grass Balancer because my horses look FANTASTIC but now I'm rethinking everything...I mean they get whole oats, alfalfa, grass hay, beet pulp, Renew Gold, and for Cash an omega 3 supplement and msm/inflammation supplement in addition to it but it just has kinda just completed the puzzle and I'm not sure what would be a "natural" replacement? I know the best thing would be actually having a pasture but that's not possible at least until I make a few million in real estate and buy my own ranch....but that will take a while. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 396
| Very informative and interesting!!
I have a question though, I keep a 12:12 mineral block around with a salt block just in case. My horses are going after it this fall, they left it alone this summer. I thought horses would only lick it when they needed? After reading this I'm sure it's synthetic minerals.
Edited by oranges 2015-09-30 8:29 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Herbie, for some reason I am unable to view secondvet.com.
My question is this, If we feed grass hay to broodmares on limited pasture, what should I be giving them if not a mineral block or tub? In the past I have used Sweetpro 16 and Purina Essentials. Same question for my growing weanlings and yearlings, do they need mineral supplementation and if so, what do I give them?
This is truly a very confusing subject....and as a producer, cost effectiveness is critical. Thanks.
Edited by Tdove 2015-09-30 9:12 AM
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Tdove - 2015-09-30 9:10 AM Herbie, for some reason I am unable to view secondvet.com. My question is this, If we feed grass hay to broodmares on limited pasture, what should I be giving them if not a mineral block or tub? In the past I have used Sweetpro 16 and Purina Essentials. Same question for my growing weanlings and yearlings, do they need mineral supplementation and if so, what do I give them? This is truly a very confusing subject....and as a producer, cost effectiveness is critical. Thanks.
Looks like the forum may be down for some reason right now.
That is tough for sure! Let me ask you this....do you think that between the Omnis cubes and grass hay they aren't getting enough? My bet is that they are getting most everything they need through the grass hay, the omnis and pasture, but I could be wrong. If you don't supplement with a grain or ration balance of some kind, do they fall off or have issues? Sometimes I think we have a tendency to overthink some of this....or at least I know I have been guilty of that in the past. My gut feeling is that these grains we feed mares, babies, and young horses are contributing to alot of the soundness issues we have once we get to competition age. For example....this same colt I have had some many respiratory issues with in the last year i've owned since he was a weanling, so I know everything there is to know about him. Even then, he had a quality about him that set him apart from the other horses on our place, and we fed him by the book....meaning what the "experts" recommended, as we had intentions on sending him to the race track and then running him at futurities. Alfalfa and grass hay, Purina feed specific young, growing horses, left him turned out so he could develop strong bones and learn to use himself in the pasture. We never overfed him, he was never obesely fat....we weren't sale prepping. He never received any supplements or any product to try to increase growth whatsoever. As a yearling, he began to develop epiphysitis (sp?) and we backed off his feed and alfalfa. He lost weight. Growth spurt? Maybe. Then he developed a very serious respiratory infection that set him back, he wouldn't eat, he was very sick.....and every since then he has had these dust allergies that i've band-aided for all these years until they spun out of control and nearly killed him last winter.
Just for the sake of argument, let's say that had I kept him on a forage only diet with good quality alfalfa and grass hay, would this have made any difference in the epiphysitis? What about the respiratory condition? Maybe....but maybe not. After everything I have learned in the last year, i'm leaning toward probably so. Everything is tied into the gut and I think we often try to over care for our horses through supplementation, marketing driven processed grains that are expensive and advertised to be "complete" feeds, when all our horse really needs is plenty of good quality forage. They may not look like they're ready to go through the sale ring as babies, but in all honesty, I don't think they should and it's not healthy for them to be heavy and halter horse fat.....no different than any adolescent being obese.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 413
| I love this thread. So much valuable information!!
I am feeding renew gold and CurOst. Going to move some oats into my equation. |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time. |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Herbie - 2015-09-29 2:20 PM
kaleydanielle - 2015-09-29 2:06 PM herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? I was forced to find a better way, as I was looking at having to euthanize my horse. I didn't go this route at first, as I too was skeptical, but I can tell you that if your horse's hindgut is working like it should, he will utilize everything he eats. I stumbled across the Cur-OST company when googling and trying to find ways to help my horse. Dr. Schell, the creator of the product, is the one who I credit for getting me on this path and taking the time to explain things in terms I can wrap my pea brain around.
I have never tested my hay, but I do feed alfalfa once daily, 2 flakes (the other half of the day my horses go out on grass). I feed 1 pound of whole oats once daily and only use the oats as a medium in which to mix my Cur-Ost. The oats are not intended to be a source of nutrition necessarily. As far as me knowing if he's getting everything he needs......the proof is in the pudding for me. I know my horse and have seen him at his worst. So many of the issues we had even before he got sick are gone, and he's a completely different horse than before. We went on a trail ride this past Sunday and some of my friends who haven't seen him since last year were blown away at how different he is not only physically but mentally as well.
Herbie, do you remember the admonishment from another post about only straight on shots of your horses from here on out? You have failed to comply. . . . |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time.
I think where minerals are concerned, there's no such thing as an actual synthetic mineral, it's just that the mined minerals are less bio-available than minerals eaten in your food. Supposedly. I keep loose minerals out and they eat the most when they have the least grass available. |
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Chandler's Mom - 2015-09-30 11:13 PM Herbie - 2015-09-29 2:20 PM kaleydanielle - 2015-09-29 2:06 PM herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? I was forced to find a better way, as I was looking at having to euthanize my horse. I didn't go this route at first, as I too was skeptical, but I can tell you that if your horse's hindgut is working like it should, he will utilize everything he eats. I stumbled across the Cur-OST company when googling and trying to find ways to help my horse. Dr. Schell, the creator of the product, is the one who I credit for getting me on this path and taking the time to explain things in terms I can wrap my pea brain around.
I have never tested my hay, but I do feed alfalfa once daily, 2 flakes (the other half of the day my horses go out on grass). I feed 1 pound of whole oats once daily and only use the oats as a medium in which to mix my Cur-Ost. The oats are not intended to be a source of nutrition necessarily. As far as me knowing if he's getting everything he needs......the proof is in the pudding for me. I know my horse and have seen him at his worst. So many of the issues we had even before he got sick are gone, and he's a completely different horse than before. We went on a trail ride this past Sunday and some of my friends who haven't seen him since last year were blown away at how different he is not only physically but mentally as well.
Herbie, do you remember the admonishment from another post about only straight on shots of your horses from here on out? You have failed to comply. . . .
Chandler's Mom, guess I shouldn't post this one then, huh? Ok, ok, here ya go. Front shot for you. But I can't change my profile pic.....yet.
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2015-10-01 8:30 AM Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time. I think where minerals are concerned, there's no such thing as an actual synthetic mineral, it's just that the mined minerals are less bio-available than minerals eaten in your food. Supposedly. I keep loose minerals out and they eat the most when they have the least grass available.
Regarding minerals, I posted on the secondvet site yesterday. I will copy the link to the response I received. Hope this helps! Interesting information.
https://secondvet.com/index.php/forum/equine/106-synthetic-ingredients |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-09-29 11:40 PM
This is fascinating. But also slightly disturbing. I've been so happy with with my Progressive Grass Balancer because my horses look FANTASTIC but now I'm rethinking everything...I mean they get whole oats, alfalfa, grass hay, beet pulp, Renew Gold, and for Cash an omega 3 supplement and msm/inflammation supplement in addition to it but it just has kinda just completed the puzzle and I'm not sure what would be a "natural" replacement? I know the best thing would be actually having a pasture but that's not possible at least until I make a few million in real estate and buy my own ranch....but that will take a while.
Before you switch feeds from a reputable feed company be willing to do your own research. Progressive Nutrition makes ALL their feeds and supplements based on peer-reviewed scientific and vet research. It's one of the things that makes them a cut above a lot of feed companies. Whereas any number of vitamins and nutrients in different forms are more or less bioavailable, it does not make them useless. Mined minerals are still 'natural' in that they come from nature, in this case the ground. Lice, ticks, bubonic plague, and uranium are also natural. The word itself does not guarantee a positive outcome. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | What makes a reputable feed company? That is a very personal decision. Progressive is owned by Cargill, correct? Some people feel Cargill to be reputable and some do not, so that varies with the individual.
Now.....Progressive boldy states, No Cereal Grains, such as corn, oats, or barley (like that is necessarily a good thing) for their "Senior Formula Pellet" and "Premium Performance 8 Pellet". But wait, in their ingredient list, there is Dried Grains with Solubles. So, I would ask the question, how reputable is that? BTW here is where DDGS comes from: Distillers dried grains with solubles (DDGS) is produced from the fuel ethanol industry and is available for inclusion in animal diets. So, it is made "from corn" at an ethenol factory making fuel. I don't want or trust that to be in my horse feed.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/horse-feeds/premium-senior-horse-feed-formula-pellet/index.jsp
In addition, many of their feeds have wheat middlings and soybean hulls as the first two ingredients, meaning that when you feed this feed, more than anything, the horse is eating wheat middlings and soybean hulls. When I look at the benefits listed no where does it tout either of these ingredients as a reason to choose the feed. To some that is not a big deal, to others it is. How many would go to the feedstore and buy a bag of wheat middlings or soybean hulls and feed it to your best horse? I would definately not.
Edited by Tdove 2015-10-01 2:40 PM
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Herbie - 2015-10-01 10:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-10-01 8:30 AM Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time. I think where minerals are concerned, there's no such thing as an actual synthetic mineral, it's just that the mined minerals are less bio-available than minerals eaten in your food. Supposedly. I keep loose minerals out and they eat the most when they have the least grass available.
I have found that when I feed high quality hay that my horses won't touch a mineral block and I've always assumed it's because they are getting what they need from their forage. |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | Nevertooold - 2015-10-01 2:50 PM Herbie - 2015-10-01 10:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-10-01 8:30 AM Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time. I think where minerals are concerned, there's no such thing as an actual synthetic mineral, it's just that the mined minerals are less bio-available than minerals eaten in your food. Supposedly. I keep loose minerals out and they eat the most when they have the least grass available.
It plays with your mind though sometimes, even though you know better. I have to tell myself, if they need it, they will utilize it, and walk away. I know my husband gets tired of me saying, "they look all right, don't they"?. I bet he hears it a thousand times. |
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:28 PM
My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
I have your answer for a balancer.....oats and flax! |
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Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Tdove - 2015-10-01 2:32 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:28 PM My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
I have your answer for a balancer.....oats and flax!
^^^^^ |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Herbie - 2015-10-01 2:34 PM
Tdove - 2015-10-01 2:32 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:28 PM My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
I have your answer for a balancer.....oats and flax!
Yep, totally agree! |
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Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| GLP - 2015-10-01 2:38 PM Herbie - 2015-10-01 2:34 PM Tdove - 2015-10-01 2:32 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:28 PM My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
I have your answer for a balancer.....oats and flax! Yep, totally agree!
Hmmm . . . never realized that flax is so phosphorus heavy. I wish I could calculate how much flax it would take to get close to the ideal balance? I'd have to run some of this Montana alfalfa thru testing, but the rough estimate is 4:1 per the coop that sells it. My timothy should be pretty ok, and I know bagged feeds are now formulated in balance so the #1 daily of that shouldn't skew the balance either. So I'm just trying to balance 4-6# of calcium heavy alfalfa? At least I finally do have a good source of flax around here . . . I was years asking for it and now the coop is providing 30# bags at an affordable price. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Tdove - 2015-10-01 1:46 PM
What makes a reputable feed company? That is a very personal decision. Progressive is owned by Cargill, correct? Some people feel Cargill to be reputable and some do not, so that varies with the individual. Now.....Progressive boldy states, No Cereal Grains, such as corn, oats, or barley (like that is necessarily a good thing ) for their "Senior Formula Pellet" and "Premium Performance 8 Pellet". But wait, in their ingredient list, there is Dried Grains with Solubles. So, I would ask the question, how reputable is that? BTW here is where DDGS comes from: Distillers dried grains with solubles ( DDGS) is produced from the fuel ethanol industry and is available for inclusion in animal diets. So, it is made "from corn" at an ethenol factory making fuel. I don't want or trust that to be in my horse feed. http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/horse-feeds/premium-senior-horse-feed-formula-pellet/index.jspIn addition, many of their feeds have wheat middlings and soybean hulls as the first two ingredients, meaning that when you feed this feed, more than anything, the horse is eating wheat middlings and soybean hulls. When I look at the benefits listed no where does it tout either of these ingredients as a reason to choose the feed. To some that is not a big deal, to others it is. How many would go to the feedstore and buy a bag of wheat middlings or soybean hulls and feed it to your best horse? I would definately not.
https://uckeleequine.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/what-are-wheat-midds/
As wheat middlings are a large part of what make whole wheat bread better and more nutritious for you than white bread as the flour germ is actually low in nutrients and really only high in starch. Yes, I think I would want to feed my horse something that was high in nutritional value. Barring sensitivity, sounds like a solid feed base to me. Just as the skin of a potato contains the great bulk of its nutrient value, so too with wheat middlings. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | oija - 2015-10-01 3:52 PM Tdove - 2015-10-01 1:46 PM What makes a reputable feed company? That is a very personal decision. Progressive is owned by Cargill, correct? Some people feel Cargill to be reputable and some do not, so that varies with the individual. Now.....Progressive boldy states, No Cereal Grains, such as corn, oats, or barley (like that is necessarily a good thing ) for their "Senior Formula Pellet" and "Premium Performance 8 Pellet". But wait, in their ingredient list, there is Dried Grains with Solubles. So, I would ask the question, how reputable is that? BTW here is where DDGS comes from: Distillers dried grains with solubles ( DDGS) is produced from the fuel ethanol industry and is available for inclusion in animal diets. So, it is made "from corn" at an ethenol factory making fuel. I don't want or trust that to be in my horse feed. http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/horse-feeds/premium-senior-horse-feed-formula-pellet/index.jspIn addition, many of their feeds have wheat middlings and soybean hulls as the first two ingredients, meaning that when you feed this feed, more than anything, the horse is eating wheat middlings and soybean hulls. When I look at the benefits listed no where does it tout either of these ingredients as a reason to choose the feed. To some that is not a big deal, to others it is. How many would go to the feedstore and buy a bag of wheat middlings or soybean hulls and feed it to your best horse? I would definately not. As wheat middlings are a large part of what make whole wheat bread better and more nutritious for you than white bread as the flour germ is actually low in nutrients and really only high in starch. Yes, I think I would want to feed my horse something that was high in nutritional value. Barring sensitivity, sounds like a solid feed base to me. Just as the skin of a potato contains the great bulk of its nutrient value, so too with wheat middlings.
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-10-01 4:04 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Exactly why it is an individual choice and I do agree with your point. This is exactly why it is a personal determination and why I noted to some it is not a big issue while to others it is.
Where I thought it relevant to this topic is added vitamins and minerals. Whole foods contain more nutrients. When you heavily process, often times nutrients are lost and must be artificially added back in. This comes back to individual beliefs. I personally don't want wheat middlings as the main ingredient in my feed. It goes against my philosophy. I feel that if I would not buy it by itself and feed it, then I wouldn't want it in there, certainly not as the main ingredient. I also believe that the main ingredients in my feed should be some of the best and I would want to highlight it. And you may have a different opinion altogether. So for you, this might be opposite. In the end we are both right because what is best for you is what is most aligned with your position on the subject matter. Good discussion either way.
Edited by Tdove 2015-10-01 5:25 PM
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Tdove - 2015-10-01 2:32 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:28 PM My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
I have your answer for a balancer.....oats and flax!
And I'm using stabilized rice bran with my alfalfa. If I needed more "fuel" oats would be in the mix too.
I don't have have a problem with dried distiller's grains btw, even tho it IS a by-product. It's the most nutritious part of the corn left after the starch has been removed, kind of similar to rice bran vs white rice. So I had rather feed that than regular corn. Not that starch is all bad, but corn in its natural form has one of the highest levels. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Herbie - 2015-10-01 10:25 AM
Chandler's Mom - 2015-09-30 11:13 PM Herbie - 2015-09-29 2:20 PM kaleydanielle - 2015-09-29 2:06 PM herbie, so how do you be sure your horse is getting what it needs besides good quality forage? I was forced to find a better way, as I was looking at having to euthanize my horse. I didn't go this route at first, as I too was skeptical, but I can tell you that if your horse's hindgut is working like it should, he will utilize everything he eats. I stumbled across the Cur-OST company when googling and trying to find ways to help my horse. Dr. Schell, the creator of the product, is the one who I credit for getting me on this path and taking the time to explain things in terms I can wrap my pea brain around.
I have never tested my hay, but I do feed alfalfa once daily, 2 flakes (the other half of the day my horses go out on grass). I feed 1 pound of whole oats once daily and only use the oats as a medium in which to mix my Cur-Ost. The oats are not intended to be a source of nutrition necessarily. As far as me knowing if he's getting everything he needs......the proof is in the pudding for me. I know my horse and have seen him at his worst. So many of the issues we had even before he got sick are gone, and he's a completely different horse than before. We went on a trail ride this past Sunday and some of my friends who haven't seen him since last year were blown away at how different he is not only physically but mentally as well.
Herbie, do you remember the admonishment from another post about only straight on shots of your horses from here on out? You have failed to comply. . . .
Rickey still showing too much booty. . . . . (Pretty pretty boy, Herbie!!!) |
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Blessed
Location: Here | Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time.
That is what. i have along with the loose |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | SG. - 2015-10-02 6:03 AM Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time. That is what. i have along with the loose
This is what we use as well and yes, they are naturally occuring minerals from the USA. |
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| lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:42 PM
GLP - 2015-10-01 2:38 PM Herbie - 2015-10-01 2:34 PM Tdove - 2015-10-01 2:32 PM lonely va barrelxr - 2015-10-01 2:28 PM My horses look the best ever these past two years since I replaced their bagged feed with high quality alfalfa. They do get #1 or less of bagged feed per day, and that's so I can throw a teaspoon of mineral at them. The alfalfa I use is so high quality that I feel it's best to help balance the calcium:phosphorus in their diet. I'd love to find a natural source to balance the calcium:phosphorus, but I bet it would still be in a form that required that #1 of bagged feed to feed it out.
I have your answer for a balancer.....oats and flax! Yep, totally agree!
Lonely Va... Try feedxl.com to help w your balancing. It's really easy and helpful, but w the new info on synthetic vit and minerals I don't know that I will be using it anymore. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 396
| I have a question. I keep a 12:12 mineral out just in case. No molasses or sugar. The horses do sometimes lick it. Are they licking because or I always thought they licked it if they needed it? |
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| What do you experts on this subject think of the supplement Source Miconutients that made w different types of sea weed?? |
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| Breeze'sJockey - 2015-10-19 1:37 PM
What do you experts on this subject think of the supplement Source Miconutients that made w different types of sea weed??
I'm curious about this as well. I've looked into that a few times but never bought any. It's pretty inexpensive and from what I've read and reviews seems like it could be a good option. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I fed it way back in the day - like the early '80's. I really liked it, the horses' coats were awesome and their feet were great. Fed it for several years and then the feed store quit feeding it and went with a new fad product. I actually have been thinking about using it on the young ones again if it is as cheap as it used to be, comparatively of course. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | Nevertooold - 2015-10-01 1:50 PM Herbie - 2015-10-01 10:30 AM Three 4 Luck - 2015-10-01 8:30 AM Longneck - 2015-09-30 10:46 PM Does anyone know if the Redmond blocks are synthetic? I have one out and both horses lick on it from time to time. I think where minerals are concerned, there's no such thing as an actual synthetic mineral, it's just that the mined minerals are less bio-available than minerals eaten in your food. Supposedly. I keep loose minerals out and they eat the most when they have the least grass available.
Here in ND in the spring time and late fall my horses will go to the mineral tub more often. They have 40 acres of mixed grass pasture. I have always fed a loose mineral of some sort-depending on what is the "in" thing. Anyway I have always blamed the first grass-full of water and quickly growing-aka-lacking true nutritional value on the increase in the spring and as the pasture dries up and looses it's seeds in the fall I feel it looses its nutrients as well-just added the loose mineral to the bucket hanging on the fence last night. So for me NTO's statement is proof that forage is the key to mineral/vitamin stabilization. My horses will start getting some hay regularly here in the next week or two and they will back off on the mineral tub. |
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