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Posts: 1119
 
| I just got a gelding that was bought through an auction without papers. I was able to contact the breeder, found out his registered name and who the last listed owners were.
I have messaged multiple Facebook accounts that appear to be these people, with no response. The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers. I am just curious if a letter from an attorney may be possible or worth the trouble? I know I don't really have any sort of recourse if they choose to ignore it.
He's a gelding, so it's not like papers are a must have. But if a horse has papers or can have papers, I'm willing to explore whatever it may take to get them. |
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  The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
   
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | I wouldn't bother. You don't even kow for sure that you have the right people. IMO, it is NOT COOL to have a lawyer send a letter to someone that might not even BE the prior owner. If papers are THAT important to you, buy a horse whose papers are in order and are going with it. :)
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | Are you sure the message didn't go to their "other" folder? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
| I paid the $1 that FB charges to make sure it goes into their regular folder.
Normally, I would agree that I don't know that these are for sure the right people. But they have very unique names and I am 99.9999999% sure these are the correct people. |
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 No Tune in a Bucket
Posts: 2935
Location: Texas | You could possible send them a register letter explaining the situation but I probably would not send a letter from lawyer. I contacted the breeder on a horse that I bought, just wanting to know anything about the dam. I do have his papers but a letter and FB message and no response. I gave up. |
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | well poop. I don't understand why people just won't respond. I find it honestly rude. |
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Posts: 46
| On a gelding? IMO, if it were a very well papered mare, go for it. However I believe you are wasting your time and money. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
| RocketPilot - 2015-10-09 12:42 PM You could possible send them a register letter explaining the situation but I probably would not send a letter from lawyer. I contacted the breeder on a horse that I bought, just wanting to know anything about the dam. I do have his papers but a letter and FB message and no response. I gave up.
Thanks for the suggestion, I didn't think about a registered letter.I think that will be my next step!
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| MissouriJen - 2015-10-09 11:50 AM
I just got a gelding that was bought through an auction without papers. I was able to contact the breeder, found out his registered name and who the last listed owners were.
I have messaged multiple Facebook accounts that appear to be these people, with no response. The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers. I am just curious if a letter from an attorney may be possible or worth the trouble? I know I don't really have any sort of recourse if they choose to ignore it.
He's a gelding, so it's not like papers are a must have. But if a horse has papers or can have papers, I'm willing to explore whatever it may take to get them.
You never paid for a papered horse, you paid for a grade horse.
People pull papers for multiple reasons, and if they don't want to send the papers, there is absolutely nothing you can do.
I do have a problem with people expecting to get papers for a horse without having to pay what the papered horse is worth.
So what is a lawyer going to do, demand the papers? You can't, as the auction didn't guarantee papers, you bought a grade horse.
I have heard of people being tracked down and willing to give the papers for a 4500 service fee. I thought this is a good idea |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | cheryl makofka - 2015-10-09 1:09 PM MissouriJen - 2015-10-09 11:50 AM I just got a gelding that was bought through an auction without papers. I was able to contact the breeder, found out his registered name and who the last listed owners were.
I have messaged multiple Facebook accounts that appear to be these people, with no response. The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers. I am just curious if a letter from an attorney may be possible or worth the trouble? I know I don't really have any sort of recourse if they choose to ignore it.
He's a gelding, so it's not like papers are a must have. But if a horse has papers or can have papers, I'm willing to explore whatever it may take to get them. You never paid for a papered horse, you paid for a grade horse. People pull papers for multiple reasons, and if they don't want to send the papers, there is absolutely nothing you can do. I do have a problem with people expecting to get papers for a horse without having to pay what the papered horse is worth. So what is a lawyer going to do, demand the papers? You can't, as the auction didn't guarantee papers, you bought a grade horse. I have heard of people being tracked down and willing to give the papers for a 4500 service fee. I thought this is a good idea
I don't blame the girl for trying. Not that papers are a guarantee, but they sure do help sell a horse and/or add value to make sure it won't end up back at the same auction.
Now if folks wanted to cull him, that's another story... but honestly I'm not sure why they would have done that. I can see a breeder doing it if they feel the horse is a cull, but not really why an owner would.
However, if they don't want to answer, that's their perrogative. I would try to find a phone number. Not everyone goes on fb much or ever checks messages. Either that, or mail them a letter with your phone number.
Good luck, but I wouldn't be expecting anything TBH. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 372
| Please don't boil their rabbit.
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | MissouriJen - 2015-10-09 11:50 AM I just got a gelding that was bought through an auction without papers. I was able to contact the breeder, found out his registered name and who the last listed owners were.
I have messaged multiple Facebook accounts that appear to be these people, with no response. The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers. I am just curious if a letter from an attorney may be possible or worth the trouble? I know I don't really have any sort of recourse if they choose to ignore it.
He's a gelding, so it's not like papers are a must have. But if a horse has papers or can have papers, I'm willing to explore whatever it may take to get them.
This seems more than a little "fishy" to me...... |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| barrelracr131 - 2015-10-09 1:41 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-10-09 1:09 PM MissouriJen - 2015-10-09 11:50 AM I just got a gelding that was bought through an auction without papers. I was able to contact the breeder, found out his registered name and who the last listed owners were.
I have messaged multiple Facebook accounts that appear to be these people, with no response. The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers. I am just curious if a letter from an attorney may be possible or worth the trouble? I know I don't really have any sort of recourse if they choose to ignore it.
He's a gelding, so it's not like papers are a must have. But if a horse has papers or can have papers, I'm willing to explore whatever it may take to get them. You never paid for a papered horse, you paid for a grade horse. People pull papers for multiple reasons, and if they don't want to send the papers, there is absolutely nothing you can do. I do have a problem with people expecting to get papers for a horse without having to pay what the papered horse is worth. So what is a lawyer going to do, demand the papers? You can't, as the auction didn't guarantee papers, you bought a grade horse. I have heard of people being tracked down and willing to give the papers for a 4500 service fee. I thought this is a good idea
Now if folks wanted to cull him, that's another story... but honestly I'm not sure why they would have done that. I can see a breeder doing it if they feel the horse is a cull, but not really why an owner would.
However, if they don't want to answer, that's their perrogative. I would try to find a phone number. Not everyone goes on fb much or ever checks messages. Either that, or mail them a letter with your phone number.
Good luck, but I wouldn't be expecting anything TBH.
She is contemplating sending a lawyer after the previous owners to cough up the papers, to me that is a little over the deep end. |
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| My uncle sold a horse to a young lady on payments, but kept the papers. She quit making payments and sold the horse. She told the new owners he was papered and who had the papers. They called him to get the papers. The papers on that horse cost $1,000. The amount she shorted him.
Point being-there may be a reason for no papers. |
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| I don't blame you for trying. I would try too. It gives an opportunity to know a horses history. There is nothing wrong with that. I would contact AQHA and see if you can DNA verify your horse and get his papers that way. If you have a bill of sale from the auction and he is DNA verified you should be able to get his papers for a nominal fee.
Edited by magic gunsmoke 2015-10-09 9:42 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 871
Location: Bama | magic gunsmoke - 2015-10-09 9:35 PM
I don't blame you for trying. I would try too. It gives an opportunity to know a horses history. There is nothing wrong with that. I would contact AQHA and see if you can DNA verify your horse and get his papers that way. If you have a bill of sale from the auction and he is DNA verified you should be able to get his papers for a nominal fee.
Page 15
https://aqha.com/media/5187/2015-handbook-registration.pdf
VIO106
The certificate belongs to AQHA. You'll have to pay for DNA testing. I'd call AQHA Monday and ask them.
I don't understand why people think holding papers is ok.  |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | barrelracr131 - 2015-10-09 1:41 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-10-09 1:09 PM MissouriJen - 2015-10-09 11:50 AM I just got a gelding that was bought through an auction without papers. I was able to contact the breeder, found out his registered name and who the last listed owners were.
I have messaged multiple Facebook accounts that appear to be these people, with no response. The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers. I am just curious if a letter from an attorney may be possible or worth the trouble? I know I don't really have any sort of recourse if they choose to ignore it.
He's a gelding, so it's not like papers are a must have. But if a horse has papers or can have papers, I'm willing to explore whatever it may take to get them. You never paid for a papered horse, you paid for a grade horse. People pull papers for multiple reasons, and if they don't want to send the papers, there is absolutely nothing you can do. I do have a problem with people expecting to get papers for a horse without having to pay what the papered horse is worth. So what is a lawyer going to do, demand the papers? You can't, as the auction didn't guarantee papers, you bought a grade horse. I have heard of people being tracked down and willing to give the papers for a 4500 service fee. I thought this is a good idea
Now if folks wanted to cull him, that's another story... but honestly I'm not sure why they would have done that. I can see a breeder doing it if they feel the horse is a cull, but not really why an owner would.
However, if they don't want to answer, that's their perrogative. I would try to find a phone number. Not everyone goes on fb much or ever checks messages. Either that, or mail them a letter with your phone number.
Good luck, but I wouldn't be expecting anything TBH.
I agree---try the registered letter route and if it works, great. If not, at least you tried. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| palominopaintlover - 2015-10-09 9:58 PM
magic gunsmoke - 2015-10-09 9:35 PM
I don't blame you for trying. I would try too. It gives an opportunity to know a horses history. There is nothing wrong with that. I would contact AQHA and see if you can DNA verify your horse and get his papers that way. If you have a bill of sale from the auction and he is DNA verified you should be able to get his papers for a nominal fee.
Page 15
https://aqha.com/media/5187/2015-handbook-registration.pdf
VIO106
The certificate belongs to AQHA. You'll have to pay for DNA testing. I'd call AQHA Monday and ask them.
I don't understand why people think holding papers is ok.
I just read the entire link, and there are a few loop holes
If you pull the papers on a horse, from what I read you can actually do it, but you are to notify aqha you sold the horse without the papers. I want to know what aqha does after this, and if aqha will reissue the papers to another individual.
Also if the papers are "lost" you need to go back to the last documented owner have them write a letter stating who they give the papers to, and you need to keep going down the list till you find who lost the papers. A signed tranfer report also needs to be done for each owner.
So my understanding one can say yes I pulled the papers and sold the horse, but forgot to notify aqha, then no papers would be issued. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| According to AQHA, it is the responsibility of the SELLER to complete the transfer on a sale. You do not really even have proof that this is the actual horse that you bought. A DNAtest is $65. If you could just get new papers on a horse anybody could pick one up at a sale and call AQHA and get papers. People keep papers all the time for various reasons and AQHA is not going to harass one of their members because someone bought a horse at a sale and wants papers. The horse is a gelding papers are not going to change anything. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| Straky you are right.
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IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| streakysox - 2015-10-10 6:53 PM
According to AQHA, it is the responsibility of the SELLER to complete the transfer on a sale. You do not really even have proof that this is the actual horse that you bought. A DNAtest is $65. If you could just get new papers on a horse anybody could pick one up at a sale and call AQHA and get papers. People keep papers all the time for various reasons and AQHA is not going to harass one of their members because someone bought a horse at a sale and wants papers. The horse is a gelding papers are not going to change anything.
Going through AQHA may eliminate having to get in touch with previous owners if the horse can be DNA verified. I don't really understand why people think it is horrible to at least try. And charge 4500 for papers??? Really???
I am sure any of you would also jump at the opportunity to get papers if you could and if not no harm, no foul.
It doesn't hurt anyone or anything to see what AQHA can do if anything. |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | I think most of you are MISSING a very important statement by the OP.......
The breeder had bought the horse back from them at one point and involved AQHA, but was not able to get the papers.
If the AQHA wouldn't help the "breeder" replace the papers, what makes you think they would help a buyer who bought a GRADE horse at a sale? IMO, there is more to this story between breeder and sellers.
Edited by NJJ 2015-10-11 9:49 AM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| magic gunsmoke - 2015-10-11 9:08 AM
streakysox - 2015-10-10 6:53 PM
According to AQHA, it is the responsibility of the SELLER to complete the transfer on a sale. You do not really even have proof that this is the actual horse that you bought. A DNAtest is $65. If you could just get new papers on a horse anybody could pick one up at a sale and call AQHA and get papers. People keep papers all the time for various reasons and AQHA is not going to harass one of their members because someone bought a horse at a sale and wants papers. The horse is a gelding papers are not going to change anything.
Going through AQHA may eliminate having to get in touch with previous owners if the horse can be DNA verified. I don't really understand why people think it is horrible to at least try. And charge 4500 for papers??? Really???
I am sure any of you would also jump at the opportunity to get papers if you could and if not no harm, no foul.
It doesn't hurt anyone or anything to see what AQHA can do if anything.
Nowhere in the rule book that I have found does it say aqha will reissue papers on DNA verification.
Also depending on the dam, I believe there are some registered horses out there whose dam was never dna'd.
As for people charging 4500 for papers, I don't know the entire story, but people can charge whatever they want, doesn't mean you have to pay it/buy it.
Some papers are worth the money, to connect the horse to the pedigree |
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IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| LOL, I guess what I am trying to say is instead of going back to previous owners get in contact with AQHA and if they can't help you then nothing can probably be done.
I just think working with or contacting AQHA is the best opportunity. I do know they worked with a rescue that took in 48 quarter horses saying that the rescue could send in DNA tests to confirm that the horses were said horses and they would release papers, so I am sure they do things on a case by case basis. This was not really worth it, and the rescue didn't really care but the opportunity was there for potential adopters if they chose to check into it.
As far as what happened previously, if OP has not contacted AQHA then her best bet is to still probably do so. Regardless of why/how/what happened before? Can't get the whole picture without them.
Edited by magic gunsmoke 2015-10-11 4:50 PM
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I AM being nice
Posts: 4396
Location: MD | I don't think that there is anything wrong with making civilized, non-threatening contact with a previous owner to see about retrieving one's papers. I do believe that you should be prepared to pay up for them, however. Many moons ago, I bought a son of Indian Artifacts who had been being purchased on payments by an employee of the breeder. The girl quit, moved the horse and stopped making payments. Somehow, the horse had found his way to a local trader, skinny and sickly. The trader told me what he knew of the situation and presented me with the copy of the horse's papers that had been sent along with him. I bought him cheaply, contacted the breeder and was told that the girl had left with a $3,500 balance on the colt and that was the number that it would take to get his papers. While I wasn't necessarily thrilled about spending that amount of money on top of all of the money that was being pumped into getting him healthy, I certainly didn't blame Robin for saying "Look, if you want the papers, this is what it's going to cost you" so, I paid up for them. |
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boon
Posts: 4
| Ok so I'm new to posting here but have lurked for a while and went through a paper ordeal with AQHA on a stud one time. Yes you can get papers on them. It is extremely difficult and time consuming. The only reason I went through the process is it was a very well bred and put together stud. Yes the papers belong to AQHA, however they do not get involved in civil matters. For example say I trade horses with someone and they don't give me the papers according to AQHA that is a civil matter and won't get involved. However the deal with the horse I had was traded amongst two girls and I was an innocent 3rd party so AQHA agreed to help me but the one thing I had in my favor was a signed bill of sale with horses registered name and registration number. This to AQHA was the same as a signed transfer. It took me over a year to get the papers but I did manage to get it done. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Barrelcrazedgal - 2015-10-11 10:40 PM
Ok so I'm new to posting here but have lurked for a while and went through a paper ordeal with AQHA on a stud one time. Yes you can get papers on them. It is extremely difficult and time consuming. The only reason I went through the process is it was a very well bred and put together stud. Yes the papers belong to AQHA, however they do not get involved in civil matters. For example say I trade horses with someone and they don't give me the papers according to AQHA that is a civil matter and won't get involved. However the deal with the horse I had was traded amongst two girls and I was an innocent 3rd party so AQHA agreed to help me but the one thing I had in my favor was a signed bill of sale with horses registered name and registration number. This to AQHA was the same as a signed transfer. It took me over a year to get the papers but I did manage to get it done.
Sure is funny as everytime I have asked they have told me absolutely no, they will not release or transfer papers without a signed transfer.
I had a mare who the owner died. I had the papers a signed transfer of the executor, a copy of the will with the courts stamp on it and still could not get her transferred and aqha kept the papers to top it off |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| That makes me worry, I have tried to get my trainer (she is a very good friend) to let me put her name on my horses's papers. I'm old and you never know if something is going to happen. |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | DNA testing works IF the horse was DNA'd to begine with. Then AQHA will tell you who the horse is as per DNA and reg. # but then it is still up to you to negotiate with the listed seller for the papers. This is straight from AQHA. It is $50 to UC Davis for the DNA testing and then $100 to AQHA for them to match the DNA. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | How old is the horse? The way you describe it, sounds like an aged gelding. I disagree about the papers making it more valuable. In my opinion, there just papers at that point. I don't blame you for wanting the papers, but at some point, it's probably not worth it. Unless you want to show breed shows or it is a prospect. But you knew it didn't have papers when you bought it.
AQHA papers are a dime a dozen now days. Unless they are really good, some aren't worth the money it cost for the printing. Just my honest assessment.
Edited by Tdove 2015-10-12 9:31 AM
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Tdove - 2015-10-12 7:17 AM How old is the horse? The way you describe it, sounds like an aged gelding. I disagree about the papers making it more valuable. In my opinion, their just papers at that point. I don't blame you for wanting the papers, but at some point, it's probably not worth it. Unless you want to show breed shows or it is a prospect. But you knew it didn't have papers when you bought it. AQHA papers are a dime a dozen now days. Unless they are really good, some aren't worth the money it cost for the printing. Just my honest assessment.
In my area, papers will make a difference in value as long as the horse isn't a later teenager. Especially in the trail horse or cheaper horse group. Even for geldings.
I think one reason is that they know the horse's age is what the seller is saying.
I think it's silly myself, but it does matter and you see the difference in the sale prices. I think a lot has to do with your local horse market, so that could be why I have a different perspective. |
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boon
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| cheryl makofka - 2015-10-11 10:59 PM
Barrelcrazedgal - 2015-10-11 10:40 PM
Ok so I'm new to posting here but have lurked for a while and went through a paper ordeal with AQHA on a stud one time. Yes you can get papers on them. It is extremely difficult and time consuming. The only reason I went through the process is it was a very well bred and put together stud. Yes the papers belong to AQHA, however they do not get involved in civil matters. For example say I trade horses with someone and they don't give me the papers according to AQHA that is a civil matter and won't get involved. However the deal with the horse I had was traded amongst two girls and I was an innocent 3rd party so AQHA agreed to help me but the one thing I had in my favor was a signed bill of sale with horses registered name and registration number. This to AQHA was the same as a signed transfer. It took me over a year to get the papers but I did manage to get it done.
Sure is funny as everytime I have asked they have told me absolutely no, they will not release or transfer papers without a signed transfer.
I had a mare who the owner died. I had the papers a signed transfer of the executor, a copy of the will with the courts stamp on it and still could not get her transferred and aqha kept the papers to top it off
That's odd. All I had for the transfer was a signed bill of sale with all horses info and signatures of buyer and seller. Also on the executor of the estate deal I also bought one that the owner had passed and the executor and power of attorney signed the transfer and AQHA never gave me a hint of a problem. That's odd.
Edited by Barrelcrazedgal 2015-10-12 12:53 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Barrelcrazedgal - 2015-10-12 12:52 PM
cheryl makofka - 2015-10-11 10:59 PM
Barrelcrazedgal - 2015-10-11 10:40 PM
Ok so I'm new to posting here but have lurked for a while and went through a paper ordeal with AQHA on a stud one time. Yes you can get papers on them. It is extremely difficult and time consuming. The only reason I went through the process is it was a very well bred and put together stud. Yes the papers belong to AQHA, however they do not get involved in civil matters. For example say I trade horses with someone and they don't give me the papers according to AQHA that is a civil matter and won't get involved. However the deal with the horse I had was traded amongst two girls and I was an innocent 3rd party so AQHA agreed to help me but the one thing I had in my favor was a signed bill of sale with horses registered name and registration number. This to AQHA was the same as a signed transfer. It took me over a year to get the papers but I did manage to get it done.
Sure is funny as everytime I have asked they have told me absolutely no, they will not release or transfer papers without a signed transfer.
I had a mare who the owner died. I had the papers a signed transfer of the executor, a copy of the will with the courts stamp on it and still could not get her transferred and aqha kept the papers to top it off
That's odd. All I had for the transfer was a signed bill of sale with all horses info and signatures of buyer and seller. Also on the executor of the estate deal I also bought one that the owner had passed and the executor and power of attorney signed the transfer and AQHA never gave me a hint of a problem. That's odd.
It seems it comes down to who handles your paperwork, the more I read on the Internet about aqha releasing papers, i get more of a bitter taste in my mouth for aqha. |
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Contacting Previous Owners/Transferring Papers