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 Veteran
Posts: 290
 
| What's everyone's opinion on this? I'm looking at a filly who is double bred french man's guy. Sire's side has him one and dams side once. Both would be great grandparent of this filly. |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
 
Location: OH | pushin4mny - 2015-10-21 9:02 AM What's everyone's opinion on this? I'm looking at a filly who is double bred french man's guy. Sire's side has him one and dams side once. Both would be great grandparent of this filly.
The Sun Frost line of horses linebreeds extremely well. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I heard that it's line breeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't. I think it depends on the individual, just like anything. As far as buying one, I guess I wouldn't be too comfortable supporting breeders by buying stock that that was too tightly bred.
With this horse, FG is pretty far out. I wouldn't worry about it! |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Look at Cowans Brothers web site and check out some of the pedigrees---they are linebreeding Sun Frost pretty tight and it sure seems to be working well, they have some OUTSTANDING horses. |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | Mighty Broke - 2015-10-21 8:36 AM
Look at Cowans Brothers web site and check out some of the pedigrees---they are linebreeding Sun Frost pretty tight and it sure seems to be working well, they have some OUTSTANDING horses.
couldn't agree more. I've had the opportunity to be around a couple of the Cowan mares that are linebred Sun Frost. Couldn't ask for a nicer put together horse with the qualities many people strive to breed for. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | TwistedK - 2015-10-21 10:06 AM Mighty Broke - 2015-10-21 8:36 AM Look at Cowans Brothers web site and check out some of the pedigrees---they are linebreeding Sun Frost pretty tight and it sure seems to be working well, they have some OUTSTANDING horses. couldn't agree more. I've had the opportunity to be around a couple of the Cowan mares that are linebred Sun Frost. Couldn't ask for a nicer put together horse with the qualities many people strive to breed for.
Plus, because of the linebreeding--in the future those mares will breed true and consistent. |
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Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | Mighty Broke - 2015-10-21 9:07 AM
TwistedK - 2015-10-21 10:06 AM Mighty Broke - 2015-10-21 8:36 AM Look at Cowans Brothers web site and check out some of the pedigrees---they are linebreeding Sun Frost pretty tight and it sure seems to be working well, they have some OUTSTANDING horses. couldn't agree more. I've had the opportunity to be around a couple of the Cowan mares that are linebred Sun Frost. Couldn't ask for a nicer put together horse with the qualities many people strive to breed for.
absolutely. Plus... there are many QUALITY T4 branded studs out there to continue crossing on them to keep the line breeding going. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Since it is so far back in the pedigree I wouldn't consider it line breeding. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I am a breeder and do not agree with true linebreeding. We have our stallion specifically for outcrossing with various types of linebred mares that you find today in every discipline. The genetics in AQHA are getting tighter and tighter and I feel this subject will become more and more of a debate. If you are going to linebreed, you need to outcross at some point and there are less and less viable crosses available. Here is an AQHA article on the subject.
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor... |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Tdove - 2015-10-21 11:15 AM I am a breeder and do not agree with true linebreeding. We have our stallion specifically for outcrossing with various types of linebred mares that you find today in every discipline. The genetics in AQHA are getting tighter and tighter and I feel this subject will become more and more of a debate. If you are going to linebreed, you need to outcross at some point and there are less and less viable crosses available. Here is an AQHA article on the subject. http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor... http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
I do agree with your points about having to have an outcross, you do--no question about it, BUT when you see a Superior Sire, the best way to preserve those traits for future generations is through linebreeding. The key is that someone has to know what they are doing ---every sire will not linebreed well and the bottom side is critical when attempting linebreeding. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | All of it is up for debate and there is definitely two spilt camps. I choose to have as much genetic diversity as possible and to breed phenotype to phenotype for desired outcome, doing so with differing genotype. I have seen more poor performing linebred horses than anything and in today's breeding environment, often time the outcome is a disaster.
Many of the foundation horses were line bred to set the breed and to get a mongrel group to breed true. Doing so, required much cheaper operations than exist today and heavy acceptance of mass culling. This is in-large not feasible or acceptable today. This of course is my opinion and not as mainstream as most others. Does it mean that linebred horses cannot be fantastic individuals? Not at all. But give this another 20 years and I think the popular thought might change.
Edited by Tdove 2015-10-21 11:06 AM
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | In this case, look at the horse. If she is what you desire, the linebreeding isn't a bad thing. I would not worry about it with the common ancestor being so far back. Whoever breeds this filly can outcross to something unrelated. Possibly the 1654165131561 racehorses that have shown ability in the barrel pen. Good luck with her. Let us know how she does for you.  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | Mighty Broke - 2015-10-21 9:07 AM TwistedK - 2015-10-21 10:06 AM Mighty Broke - 2015-10-21 8:36 AM Look at Cowans Brothers web site and check out some of the pedigrees---they are linebreeding Sun Frost pretty tight and it sure seems to be working well, they have some OUTSTANDING horses. couldn't agree more. I've had the opportunity to be around a couple of the Cowan mares that are linebred Sun Frost. Couldn't ask for a nicer put together horse with the qualities many people strive to breed for.
I think any reasponsible breeder should line breed within their breeding program. This is the only way to set a type within a bloodline so that your horses will breed true and there will be no surprises. It is also the only way to find out what your bloodlines are truely carrying, this includes the good and bad traits that may otherwise be covered up with all the outcrosses.
Some of the BEST breeding programs in the country, horses, cattle, dogs, etc. have come from linebred programs and are in high demand because they breed true and the buyer knows exactly what they are getting in genetics. I do not see this changing in the future because a wide gene pool holds nothing but surprises for breeders that are trying to accomplish specifics within their programs.
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| Tdove - 2015-10-21 10:42 AM All of it is up for debate and there is definitely two spilt camps. I choose to have as much genetic diversity as possible and to breed phenotype to phenotype for desired outcome, doing so with differing genotype. I have seen more poor performing linebred horses than anything and in today's breeding environment, often time the outcome is a disaster. Many of the foundation horses were line bred to set the breed and to get a mongrel group to breed true. Doing so, required much cheaper operations than exist today and heavy acceptance of mass culling. This is in-large not feasible or acceptable today. This of course is my opinion and not as mainstream as most others. Does it mean that linebred horses cannot be fantastic individuals? Not at all. But give this another 20 years and I think the popular thought might change.
To the OP - I wouldn't sweat it. If you like the horse, go buy it.
Tdove - I agree with you except on one thing - Cheaper operations have nothing to do with line breeding, I think anyone can and does do it. You also answered your own argument about line breeding, and I agree. The key is heavy culling - look at the livestock industry, any producer worth their salt has line bred female families that out cross on "similar" bulls or rams (etc). Linebreeding done correctly will preserve desireable traits - we like to say you either get a world beater or junk. So, cull the junk. I find it crazy that the horse industry continues to treat horses as "pets" instead of livestock and thus the resulting in the no slaughter and other such things .... JMO. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said it required cheaper operations. The reason I say this is that culling is expensive and no operation wants to have culls. The idea is to have a consistent product that has value with almost every animal produced. The fact that linebreeding creates great horses and junk is one of my cases against it. It is that single thing that has driven many operations out of breeding. The inconsistency is not financially viable, in today's horse production environment.
We will disagree on this forever, more than likely. I didn't mean to introduce heavy debate about linebreeding in this thread. I completely agree that I would not have any issues with the OP buying the horse mentioned. |
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 Veteran
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Location: Oklahoma | I could go on for days about Why to Linebreed... Grand to Grand isnt tight IF You like the horse buy it :) Prolly be one of the better horses youve had :) |
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 Living on the edge of common sense
Posts: 24138
Location: Carpenter, WY | Tdove - 2015-10-21 12:52 PM I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said it required cheaper operations. The reason I say this is that culling is expensive and no operation wants to have culls. The idea is to have a consistent product that has value with almost every animal produced. The fact that linebreeding creates great horses and junk is one of my cases against it. It is that single thing that has driven many operations out of breeding. The inconsistency is not financially viable, in today's horse production environment. We will disagree on this forever, more than likely. I didn't mean to introduce heavy debate about linebreeding in this thread. I completely agree that I would not have any issues with the OP buying the horse mentioned. A great stallion will consistently stamp his offspring to a large degree with certain traits and that to me is the key to a successful breeding program and I would have to disagree that linebreeding is the "single thing that has driven many operations out of breeding". I would like to suggest that perhaps there are quite a few stallions standing that would make great geldings or perhaps the stallions don't have the opportunity to be bred to the 'cream of the crop' mares and that would be the thing that drives more than one operation out of breeding.
When I think of successful linebreeding the first horse that comes to mind is Leo, a grandson of Joe Reed 11 top and bottom, or King a great grandson of Traveler top and bottom. Poco Bueno was a Little Joe (through Traveler 4x ) gr grndson top and bottom. IMO they didn't have the genetic diversity back in the 40's or thereabouts that we do now and it was alot more accepted than it is nowadays.
Edited by teehaha 2015-10-21 7:44 PM
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Line breeding