wyoming barrel racer - 2015-10-24 10:17 PM I am a bit collector, most are super gentle but I keep most everything in a ring snaffle unless they are for sale. No one wants a horse that is 8 yrs old and in a ring snaffle. They think they aren't broke  

Bibliafarm - 2015-10-24 8:22 PM thats why I highlighted the last part.. thats the part that I believe in.. to put a foundation and the basics on a horse .. before moving to a stronger bit..  

cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-10-25 10:53 AM  I have ridden horses in stronger bits but I've also transitioned a handful horses down from strong bits to smooth snaffles. That is always the goal. A snaffle with no other equipment is always the goal.

winwillows - 2015-10-25 12:06 PM

This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for.

winwillows - 2015-10-25 11:06 AM This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for.

Bibliafarm - 2015-10-25 11:16 AM  That would not be possible..  lightness in any bit is a goal.. a solid foundation is  that key.. guess it depends what you are doing but more advanced impossible to only ride in a snaffle always..

Tdove - 2015-10-25 10:33 AM It's a nice feel good thought and I understand and agree with the intent of the statement. However, if you limit yourself to a snaffle, you will never get the most out of any horse. Every single performance horse trainer uses a more suited bit than a snaffle on an aged horse. There are very few horses that are really good snaffle horses. It has nothing to do with is the horse or trainer good, just most horses don't do that well in one. Now that doesn't mean they do poorly, just not great on a performance level. We start every horse in a snaffle and it is the most appropriate colt bit, bar none. And every horse trained right should definitely be able to be ridden in a snaffle. I just see people taking this the wrong way, not necessarily here but all over. There is an awful lot of not quite right ideas being spread by the clinician type trainers. A lot of it is great. I like Buck, but there are a few things he says that I don't think are right. Mainly comes from his mentors, whom I think are a little over rated. You can darn sure baby a horse too much and they have a tendency to do just that. Then you ask them to bump up and grow up and you get resistance. So, not one philosophy of training is right, you have to be able to do it all, easy to hard and everything in between...at the right time. Please don't take the above the wrong way. I know he means that looking just to bits and equipment to solve your personal training faults is never the answer. So I 100% agree!

winwillows - 2015-10-25 1:06 PM This is a touchy subject here. I have done a few events with Buck, and spent more days than I can count with the man that he would tell you that he learned most from, Ray Hunt. Inferring that perhaps Ray was overrated would be an interesting point if you did not spend time to really understand the depth of understanding that man and his mentor, Tom Dorrance had. None of these horsemen left a horse in a snaffle once the horse was ready to advance into a hackamore, then two rein and bridle following the traditional bridal horse system I was a presenter at the legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth last year with Buck. If I recall, his main horse was straight up in the bridle. Ray often told me that, for him, his favorite horses were the traditional California Bridal horse, and Dressage horses. The Spanish Riding School gave Ray a private demonstration when he was there, and it was a very special thing for Ray that they honored him that way The point of those guys was not to leave a horse in a snaffle. The point was not to move them on until they are ready, and not to move them on just because you can't get what you want. Today we are all in a hurry to rush a horse forward to fit aged event time tables. They have to be to a certain point by a certain time, ready or not. One way to try to do this is to shove more in their mouth than they are ready for.

tin can - 2015-10-25 7:48 PM why isn't the spade bit considered midevil? I think there are so many people wh o forget how much he rides in a spade my neighbors try to mimic him they keep everything in an jerrimiah watt and have the most dead mouthed dull uncollected horses I've rode. It takes time a lot of feel and constant work to keep one light in a eggbut snaffle

Bibliafarm - 2015-10-25 6:19 PM  i have no idea but I do know his statement is about a starter bit to get a foundation before transitioning.. it seems the article is being misunderstood.lol.. he never mentioned not to transition..

tin can - 2015-10-25 8:34 PM Why can you only transition to a spade? I love buck and use apt of his methods i guess i lack talent i never stay totally in the snaffle. I do try to keep smooth good hands

wyoming barrel racer - 2015-10-25 8:43 PM I perfectly understood the article and it makes perfect sense. But my tiny point is that some horses never need to transition or the rider/event they are trained for, means they never need to transition. Brandi Halls rode Slim in a snaffle. I know there were times she put him in something different when she felt the need, but he was as competitive as any out there, and ran most of the time in a snaffle. 

Tdove - 2015-10-25 9:35 PM

I agree with you and buck. I do hear all the time misinformed people saying that you should do everything in a snaffle, and they will ride one 10 years old that has never been in anything else, without much success. They cite stuff like this, incorrectly of course.

Ray was and Buck is a great horsemen, never would want to take that against them. Both are certainly better than me in most ways. But they have a tendency to baby one too much for a top performer. Many idolize them and truth is there are many just as good or better, especially at maxing a horse out. I have heard of a few top trainers in Texas that were not too happy with the colts they were getting from Ray. Tried to get performance now from them and the horses would blow or get frustrated because no one had ever asked for much from them. Too much asking and not enough telling. The greatest trainers know when and how to do both. Ray was a great horse starter, because that is what a colt needs. Too much of that and you can create a confused, lazy one on down the line. Very few great horse staters are great horse finishers, and vice versa, due to this. Both are equally gifted and important.

Just wanted to clarify my earlier statement and thoughts. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. Never should you start a horse in anything other than a snaffle. Every horse needs to come out of it at different times. For some things, snaffled remain a good bit. Jumping and even barrel racing, I could see it useful on a finished horse.

winwillows - 2015-10-25 8:30 PM

Here we go. A spade is the most sensitive bit there is. It takes roughly seven years to make a bridle horse straight up in a spade if both you and the horse are good , often more. If you are not going to commit to the effort, and knowledge you should not go there. Quicker is abuse, just like a snaffle hauled back with two hands at the same time is abuse. A spade sets the angle at the pole with zero pressure. The whole idea is being very close to zero pressure. There is no resentment from the horse when this is right. People who rush this should not own horses. People who say that, when done properly, this is midevil have never ridden a truly sensitive responsive, partner that has followed this path. This takes knowledge, hands and patience, and is a wonder and true unity when done right. This is certainly not for everyone. Very few people have the patience or time to follow the traditional bridal horse path. Done properly, this is the least abusive training method there is. Unfortunately, most horse owners don't have the understanding or time for a spade. It is becoming a lost art.

winwillows - 2015-10-25 10:53 PM I really don't want to start an argument here, but you are clearly confusing some typical Ray Hunt students with what Ray actually did, and tried to teach. I was actually there. You might want to give Bobby Engersoll a call about how these methods don't work for performance potential. Ray had no problem telling a horse what he wanted. He just had the courtesy to ask them first. Today's trainers are under pressure to make a horse look thirty days better every thirty days. If the horse makes it to the aged event great. If not, too bad. I understand that. But, to say horses started this way are less likely to perform is not the case. Horses started this way, in my opinion have a much better chance of staying together for a long carrier.

winwillows - 2015-10-25 9:53 PM


I really don't want to start an argument here, but you are clearly confusing some typical Ray Hunt students with what Ray actually did, and tried to teach. I was actually there. You might want to give Bobby Engersoll a call about how these methods don't work for performance potential. Ray had no problem telling a horse what he wanted. He just had the courtesy to ask them first. Today's trainers are under pressure to make a horse look thirty days better every thirty days. If the horse makes it to the aged event great. If not, too bad. I understand that. But, to say horses started this way are less likely to perform is not the case. Horses started this way, in my opinion have a much better chance of staying together for a long carrier.

Tdove - 2015-11-07 10:57 AM I said earlier that Katie starts horses in a snaffle. She uses a halter to start them, then a Hackamore, then a snaffle. Snaffle is the first bit they have. Also ground drives in a snaffle too before riding in it. Just another presprctive to add to that.

winwillows - 2015-10-25 10:53 PM


I really don't want to start an argument here, but you are clearly confusing some typical Ray Hunt students with what Ray actually did, and tried to teach. I was actually there. You might want to give Bobby Engersoll a call about how these methods don't work for performance potential. Ray had no problem telling a horse what he wanted. He just had the courtesy to ask them first. Today's trainers are under pressure to make a horse look thirty days better every thirty days. If the horse makes it to the aged event great. If not, too bad. I understand that. But, to say horses started this way are less likely to perform is not the case. Horses started this way, in my opinion have a much better chance of staying together for a long carrier.

Bibliafarm - 2015-10-24 8:18 PM I realize some wont agree and thats ok.. Just a simple post ..although I  use a 3 piece snaffle..the last paragraph I really like.

 ""When a lot of folks can't get a horse to operate on a feel, in a snaffle, what most are going to tell you "hell, get a little more bridle, get a little more shank on it, get a chain on it" and then when he's really wanting to flip over then "tie his head down". If he really runs into the tie down then "get a bicycle chain over his nose".............I mean it DOESN'T STOP, IT BECOMES MEDIEVAL WHAT THEY DO.

But when you get a horse to where he's operating on a feel; it doesn'...t make much difference what you have.

Whereas a lot of people leave the snaffle bit because they flunked out, they failed...............and then they go and get another bit.

Of course these tack salesmen love that. They go and get another bit and then they flunk out in it, ruin their horse. Then they ruin them in that, then get another bit and then pretty soon they've got a whole wall full of bits and they still can't operate the **** thing.

All that money they've wasted on bits; they could've probably bought a decent saddle for the horse so he didn't have to put up with the junk they were riding in. Now that would have been something that would have been worthwhile.

So if you don't get it done in the snaffle (the basics that a horse needs, the fundamental movements that all horses need to do for whatever you have in mind for them) before moving on to something else, well............you're not going to get it."" - Buck Brannaman.

Red Raider - 2015-11-09 11:09 AM


I agree with what others have posted about snaffles and transitioning to other bits but I also want to point out another way to read the quote:  if you can't get the snaffle to work, maybe you need to look at yourself and not just the horse and a new bit.  I see many people who try to use bits to overcompensate for their inability to properly ride and cover-up their lack of training themselves on how to properly work and work in a snaffle bit on a horse.  So for me, it's not only a question of what bit the horse should be in but also one of what training is possibly lacking for the rider when things aren't going correctly.   

Red Raider - 2015-11-09 12:09 PM I agree with what others have posted about snaffles and transitioning to other bits but I also want to point out another way to read the quote:  if you can't get the snaffle to work, maybe you need to look at yourself and not just the horse and a new bit.  I see many people who try to use bits to overcompensate for their inability to properly ride and cover-up their lack of training themselves on how to properly work and work in a snaffle bit on a horse.  So for me, it's not only a question of what bit the horse should be in but also one of what training is possibly lacking for the rider when things aren't going correctly.   

Bibliafarm - 2015-11-09 5:05 PM


That is what it means or why I posted it.. dont go to stronger bit to do what you as a rider should learn to do .. basics and foundations.. 

Mainer-racer - 2015-11-10 8:26 AM

I went to my first Buck clinic in 2014. I showed up with my barrel horse, blingy saddle - I didn't have the straw hat, chaps, or flag. I just wanted to learn something new. That I did. It was 3 day clinic - 1/2 days. My mind was BLOWN! I've always had a combo bit and learning to ride with long split reins and a snaffle was a learning experience. My whole world opened up and I see now through the horses's eyes, not my own. The last 2 years have been the best riding years I've had and I hope at one time or another you all can attend one of his clinics. I'm not a horsemanship guru, but it was an amazing experience even though I only retained about 1/8 of what he said! Videos didn't help me, hands on clinic did!

winwillows - 2015-11-10 9:05 PM I will be doing the Legacy of Legends event in Ft Worth with Buck in a few months. Buck has really evolved over the years. If you are in Texas this is a great chance to watch one of the best ambassadors of Ray Hunts teachings. This is a great event, and lots of fun to be part of.