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 Off the Wall Wacky
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Location: Louisiana | I'm no breeding expert. Is this considered linebreeding or inbreeding?
Half siblings, each by First Down Dash, with completely unrelated maternal sides. Both performers and producers. Too close, or potential great cross??
This is hypothetical and any opinions are appreciated. It won't hurt my feelings if you tell me I'm crazy lol. I honestly don't have much experience breeding and am wanting to learn more. Looking into purchasing a proven broodmare or two to breed to proven studs as a new adventure. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| Are you talking direct sons and daughters of FDD?
I have bred grand get of FDD, and don't think it is too much.
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Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | cheryl makofka - 2015-11-01 3:44 PM
Are you talking direct sons and daughters of FDD?
I have bred grand get of FDD, and don't think it is too much.
Yes, an own son and own daughter of FDD. Half siblings. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1229
Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | hmmm... I don't think I would do that. it's jsut not appealing. ( in my view.)
If you're going for a resale value you might not get it. Just guessing a large percentage of people wont be into that.
HOWEVER, I have seen and ridden a horse that was out of two half siblings and he was athletic, built, super easy to be around.
I think he was double Zan par bar? or something along those lines?
It's a gamble thats for sure. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | If I liked the conformation and temperament of each, I would do it in a heart beat. |
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Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | Thank you all for your opinions. This whole venture is still a huge maybe at this point lol. Just looking at options and learning!
The stallion is owned by family that have offered to send semen. He's proven as a performer and producer on the track, and has some nice get in the barrel arena as well.
The mare is out of a proven performer and producer on the track, and was raced herself. And has produced some nice foals as well.
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| Ok here is a question to ask yourself. Would you be comfortable conceiving, carrying, and raising a child with your half brother? I think it's a bit to close. When this happens with humans there are often developmental issues. I think line breeding is more like breeding cousins not brothers and sisters. |
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Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | FLITASTIC - 2015-11-01 5:05 PM Ok here is a question to ask yourself. Would you be comfortable conceiving, carrying, and raising a child with your half brother? I think it's a bit to close. When this happens with humans there are often developmental issues. I think line breeding is more like breeding cousins not brothers and sisters.
I wouldn't be comfortable having a child with my third cousin!! Lol. I totally get what you're saying and that's something I thought about, developmental issues. I didn't know if it was considered "normal", or not. Which is why I asked :)
If we decide to try and raise a couple foals I could certainly find a differently bred mare. I just fell in love with this ol gal, and that stallion is available to me. Of course I could always breed her to another stud as well.
Of course she may end up being out of my budget lol.
So many variables!! Thank you all for your insight! |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | They are only half siblings if out of the same mare |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | TwistedK - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM
They are only half siblings if out of the same mare
Not true. At least for these purposes. Marketing yes, but you don't suddenly get rid of half the sires DNA just because he fits on the top half of the pedigree. NOT calling them half siblings I this instance is just silly as that can still impact them.
To the OP, you take a big risk with any linebreeding but NO breed was developed without it. You wouldn't have German Shepherds and Persian cats and Clydesdale horses unless someone had performed line breeding. To select certain characteristics you must breed type to type and that often means closely related animals. So ask yourself, what traits are you trying to concentrate? What will you do with the resulting offspring if they don't have those traits? |
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Expert
Posts: 1229
Location: Royal J Performance Horses, AZ | TwistedK - 2015-11-01 4:53 PM
They are only half siblings if out of the same mare
I despise when people say that.
If your dad married, had kids with one woman. Then it fell a part or etc. and he had another child with a different woman. Those two children are half siblings....
If people want to be picky about it in the horse industry then you could say Paternal sibling for maternal sibling.
BUT they are still in fact half siblings. |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| Fancie_That_Chrome_ - 2015-11-01 6:06 PM TwistedK - 2015-11-01 4:53 PM They are only half siblings if out of the same mare I despise when people say that. If your dad married, had kids with one woman. Then it fell a part or etc. and he had another child with a different woman. Those two children are half siblings.... If people want to be picky about it in the horse industry then you could say Paternal sibling for maternal sibling. BUT they are still in fact half siblings.
Me too. They get 50% of their genes from each parent thus they are hard sibs.
I would breed Bender to his paternal (that is my sarcastic font) half sibling if I had not let her get so old. They are phenotypically quite different and I think it would have been a great cross. |
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  Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | TwistedK - 2015-11-01 6:53 PM They are only half siblings if out of the same mare
This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Do people really think this?
To the OP, I would not do it. Not appealing at all to me personally and I would be worried about genetic issues. I know people do it, but I never understood why. Too many other great bloodlines out there. |
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed.
I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around? |
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 Butter my Biscuits
Posts: 2948
Location: MI | You can breed father to daughter, or mother to son. Never breed full brother to full sister. You are not bringing in any outside genetics and am asking for trouble. Doesnt matter if its inbreeding or linebreeding. You MUST be ready to cull anything that has genetic weaknesses. That doesnt mean just dumping at a sale, where some screwball could buy and eventually breed. |
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Location: Wherever the Army sends my husband | I don't like it personally but there has been success with it. If I remember correctly that's how Wimpy is bred. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| No clue on OP's question, I know as a buyer I wouldn't buy the foal because I'm not a fan of doubling the breeding like that, I would rather see something new added in there to enhance the mares offspring. I saw a mare once who was bred to her son on accident and the foal was born with terrible conformation and had some other problems |
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 Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | I think that's way too close. No way I would breed the two of them. |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Check at Cowans, they are breeding Sun Frost sons to Sun Frost daughters a lot. Granted some lines linebreed better than others. |
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| This breeding pattern with double breeding to DASH TA FAME is what they term ..... Returning the blood to the sire's dam.....
It is used to increase the influence of the dam on the foal by the line breeding pattern developed with selective breeding from the maternal side to increase the influence of DASH TA FAME ... (Silver Creek Dash has over $53,000 in barrel earnings) extended pedigree >>>> http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/intent+ta+streak
This can be stated as DASH TA FAME 3SD X 3DD ....
3RD generation sires dam x 3RD generation dams dam ...
DASH FOR CASH
5S X 3D X 5D
OR YOU CAN LINE UP THE 5TH GENERATION OF
DASH FOR CASH, EASY JET AND TINYS GAY
5S X 5D ..... on each one ..
This is what I call a very tight stacked pedigree of successful sires and sons along with tremendous mare power everywhere you look!!
Conformation, agility, disposition, size and speed genes are constant and set in the total gene package .... so I term this as a specialized bred barrel and speed event baby!!
****************************************************************
For line breeding this is as tight as is acceptable by noted breeders ...
this is DASH TA FAME line bred by typically coming from sire to dam side of pedigree
2S X 3D
and it created this dynamic individual !!
I am sure many of you will recognize the sire as belonging to a BB ...
FLAMIN TA FAME
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flamin+ta+fame
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2015-11-01 8:58 PM
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Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
That is another arcahic thought. The genetics are the same either way, just like half siblings are half siblings regardless of whether or not it is due to sire or dam. |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | That is exactly what brought us Leo. Leo is the result of half brother and sister. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 490
| Isn't the saying... If it works then its linebreeding and if it doesnt then its inbreeding? |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | This is the product of breeding a Sun Frost son to a Sun Frost daughter. This was last summer, he is just a yearling.
Edited by Mighty Broke 2015-11-02 7:59 AM
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I personally wouldn't.
and as far as half siblings or what not. Yes, horses are half siblings either by father or mother.. but when using that term appropriately in regards to black type and pedigrees and understanding sale catalogs and statistics on racing, they only consider "half siblings" from the dam. it does not mean that the DNA is any different, it's just how they keep records and you have to respect their definition to understand their record keeping.
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | casualdust07 - 2015-11-02 10:16 AM I personally wouldn't. and as far as half siblings or what not. Yes, horses are half siblings either by father or mother.. but when using that term appropriately in regards to black type and pedigrees and understanding sale catalogs and statistics on racing, they only consider "half siblings" from the dam. it does not mean that the DNA is any different, it's just how they keep records and you have to respect their definition to understand their record keeping.
Explained very well. It is just correct horse terminology even though they are actually 50-50. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | This is why I could never be a breeder. I know it's done... but, reading this stuff just makes me think, "ewwww." I could never do it. Any time I think brother, sister, cousins, etc., I can't help but think of humans and that's just gross. It's not appealing to me with horses, either. |
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Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | There's been a lot of insight on this thread!! Thank you all! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 823
Location: East Texas | crossspur - 2015-11-02 9:11 AM
kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head.
You are correct. It is not quite the same, and yes it has to do with the sex chromosomes (XX-XY). It is the reason color blindness shows up more often in men than women. The extra X chromosomes that women have can cover up the recessive trait, but it will show up in men. |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | Mighty Broke - 2015-11-01 6:14 PM Check at Cowans, they are breeding Sun Frost sons to Sun Frost daughters a lot. Granted some lines linebreed better than others.
they have some of the nicest horses in the country, too. |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | CrossDRanch - 2015-11-02 10:07 AM
crossspur - 2015-11-02 9:11 AM
kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head.
You are correct. It is not quite the same, and yes it has to do with the sex chromosomes (XX-XY ). It is the reason color blindness shows up more often in men than women. The extra X chromosomes that women have can cover up the recessive trait, but it will show up in men.
Thank you so much for explaining that :) |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I would never do it because it looks awful on paper. You do get less money for them, and genetic issues are more likely to occur because of how small the genetic diversity is. |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | If both the Dam lines are strong, then yes I would give it a shot and see what the result was. It's sex balanced, so I think it might work out well! |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| Hank Wiescamp did a LOT of inbreeding/line breeding and bred himself out of quarter horses and into the paint horses. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FlyingHigh1454 - 2015-11-02 8:38 AM
I would never do it because it looks awful on paper. You do get less money for them, and genetic issues are more likely to occur because of how small the genetic diversity is.
The second sentence, second half of it. That's a concern if you're using stock that has known or unknown recessive defects. If you try close breeding like the OP is asking about you need to do your research AND 5 Panel test them. If there are any defects in the sire and dam that are serious, i.e. navel hernias, crypt, parrot mouth, etc. DON'T do it. Don't breed two animals that have the same faults and no serious faults for either of them.
I have a stallion that is close bred. He is a really nice horse. The close breeding gives him power to overcome things like a rough looking head, long back, straight shoulder, etc... He puts a really uniform foal on the ground out of all sorts of mares because of his close breeding to Jet Deck, who was IMO a nearly perfect horse and a stellar racehorse and sire. That's the kind of individual that can be close bred to. I'm really happy I have him and that he is close bred like he is. But MYSELF? The closest I've ever bred is Grandsire on both sides with unrelated pedigrees on the other branches. It worked really well. I don't shy away from a mare that has more Jet Deck either. Many of them are 4th generation or further back. So far, I'm really happy with what I have gotten.
Last year I bred a Judge Cash daughter to a DTF son who is out of an On A High daughter. On A High and Judge Cash are 3/4 siblings. One was a world champion race horse and sire with 113 SI. The other an All American qualifier with a SI 110. I love the colt I got from that cross. He's very nicely built and has a great mind. Time will tell how he works out. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I also want to make one small correction. The genetic contribution from the sire and dam is not exactly 50/50. The sex chromosome of a female is literally an X, for a male it's a Y. Because there is an extra arm on the X there is more genetic material on the X. Also the egg donor contributes MtDNA that only she has. 5% of the total genetic material is from the tail female line to every female to the present. So there is that part that's not equal between the male and female. Splitting hairs I know. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | OregonBR - 2015-11-03 12:46 PM
I also want to make one small correction. The genetic contribution from the sire and dam is not exactly 50/50. The sex chromosome of a female is literally an X, for a male it's a Y. Because there is an extra arm on the X there is more genetic material on the X. Also the egg donor contributes MtDNA that only she has. 5% of the total genetic material is from the tail female line to every female to the present. So there is that part that's not equal between the male and female. Splitting hairs I know.
No actually I think this is really important which is why dam line is so important and one of the reasons, though I know they can be great, I've yet to do embryo transfer. That MtDNA matters to me. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| crossspur - 2015-11-02 10:25 AM
CrossDRanch - 2015-11-02 10:07 AM
crossspur - 2015-11-02 9:11 AM
kmcsunshine - 2015-11-02 6:26 AM
equussynergy - 2015-11-01 6:59 PM crossspur - 2015-11-01 5:53 PM Breeding that close is inbreeding not line breeding. The rule on inbreeding is to breed father to a daughter but never a mother to a son. So when breeding close enough that you are inbreeding you want to double breed the sires side. But still you want to be very careful. Often a inbred animal will be small but then produces super when outcrossed. I was wondering why that is a rule? How is it genetically different than the other way around?
Yes the genetics are the same, but it has something to do with the X & Y chromosomes. I won't pretend to be a smarty & understand. Because I don't it's way over my head.
You are correct. It is not quite the same, and yes it has to do with the sex chromosomes (XX-XY ). It is the reason color blindness shows up more often in men than women. The extra X chromosomes that women have can cover up the recessive trait, but it will show up in men.
Thank you so much for explaining that : )
This is also where sexed linked traits can be amplified, which can be desireable depending on what they are ... just another point to drop in there.  |
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Expert
Posts: 2457
| BMW - 2015-11-02 5:48 PM
Hank Wiescamp did a LOT of inbreeding/line breeding and bred himself out of quarter horses and into the paint horses.
He did it very very well too, I might add. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I am not a fan of linebreeding or inbreeding. Am I saying it shouldn't be done, no. But I wont ever do it and I think at this stage of the game you can accomplish more by outcrossing, as long as you have a consistent producing stallion.
However, I would not shy away from a really nice horse that was closely bred. If everything worked out well then the papers are of little consequence, unless you planned to breed the individual. Then I would definitely be looking for an outcross.
I suppose there is no clear right or wrong answer, only differing opinions. I am of the opinion to cross genetic diversity for a desired goal. Others feel differently and have linebreeding programs. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Completely respect the above opinion and a strong breeding sire is the key to all. I just feel that with linebreeding you can really set the type of foals you want to raise. There was a discussion the other day about people making the same crosses and getting completely different type of offspring---when I make a cross I pretty much know ecactly what I am going to get the only variance can be color depending on which stallion I use. As usual---just my opinion.
Edited by Mighty Broke 2015-11-04 3:15 PM
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 Veteran
Posts: 224
Location: So Cal | My mare's dam came from that Weiscamp breeding... everything a few generations back has "Skip" in its name and her parents were "paternal half-siblings". I love my mare but I must say looking at her pedigree makes me think they went just a little over the top. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/streakinskippinbaybe
I don't think it's fair to compare to whether or not you would "breed" your own relative, because the whole concept of paying thousands of dollars for a stud fee and covering hundreds of mares per year doesn't (or at least shouldn't! ha) translate. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The way to get a strong breeding herd is to use line and inbreeding wisely. When you have a stallion that is "strong" it's because he has pairs of genes that are the homozygous for the trait you want. Sometimes this can be achieved with little line/inbreeding but it's more unlikely and more difficult to predict. If breeding a mare that is Heterozygous or completely lacking a good quality gene for that trait, breeding to a stallion that is homozygous for it is the most reasonable way to have much of a chance to get the trait you want in the foal. It's a tool.
I read that article someone posted about full siblings being as good. I take away from that article that no you're probably not going to get another American Pharoah from the same cross. That's because full siblings might only share 50% or less of the same genes. That's because the pairs of genes are heterozygous rather than homozygous. In the same article it said the likelihood of getting another good horse is greater by going back to the same cross instead of a totally different cross. So even though we probably won't see another American Pharoah, we might see some more really good horses from that cross if it's repeated more than once.  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Seeing some really uneducated post here about genetics. You also can't draw any parallel between humans, and horses. How many of us, are familiar with our families genetically influenced health history 5 generations back? We can be privy to that information on a horse. If you like a trait, that trait is more likely to show up with line breeding. It's that simple. Out crossing, does stir the gene pool. You also end up with a multitude of heterozygous traits. When you randomly mate a mare, and a stud, that are hetero for everything under the sun, you get a crap shoot. I'll take a line bred/inbred horse any day. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | Bigfoot - 2015-11-05 4:03 PM Seeing some really uneducated post here about genetics. You also can't draw any parallel between humans, and horses. How many of us, are familiar with our families genetically influenced health history 5 generations back? We can be privy to that information on a horse. If you like a trait, that trait is more likely to show up with line breeding. It's that simple. Out crossing, does stir the gene pool. You also end up with a multitude of heterozygous traits. When you randomly mate a mare, and a stud, that are hetero for everything under the sun, you get a crap shoot. I'll take a line bred/inbred horse any day.
This^^^ 100%
Don't humanize the breeding programs of animals. In order to set a type within the bloodlines, there has to be linebreeding. This is how all breeds/types are established, whether it is dogs, cattle, horses, cats, sheep, pigs, etc. Any responsible breeder WILL linebreed. It is the only way to find out what you have in the genetics and the only way to "set a type". I can think of many linebred breeding programs that have been very successful and contributed valuable genetics/animals to their breed.
How do you think breeds of any animal where established to begin with??
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Line breeding is the poor mans cloning, which hasn't proved remotely successful. Please don't say all responsible breeders line breed or that one is ignorant if they don't believe in it. There is so much genetic potential out there to discover, line breeding takes much of that discovery away and why limit yourself to trying to recreate, instead of create. Limiting genetic diversity over time has negative effects. You guys have pointed to dogs? Show me a linebred, purebred that lives as long or healthy as a hybrid vigor mutt. Match all the chromosomes you want, in the end it's a dead end with decreased ruggedness to boot. Horses today are more prone to break down or be unhealthy, as ever before.
The way to not linebred to get consistency is breed two individuals with similar phenotypes and differing genotypes. i am not trying to convince anyone not to linebreed, but don't tell me that it is the only way. Line reeding has its downside and even AQHA is trying to push back, truthfully one of the last places I would think to do so.
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
From the article, "“We need to outcross,” Dr. McCue says, simply. “If we continue to use three or four sires to create most of our elite performers within a population, we will continue to decrease genetic diversity and increase inbreeding. We can only do that for so many generations before there is a problem.”
The data also suggest that the Thoroughbred might not be a significant source for genetic diversity for the modern Quarter Horse."
Edited by Tdove 2015-11-06 8:37 AM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Tdove - 2015-11-06 4:41 AM
Line breeding is the poor mans cloning, which hasn't proved remotely successful. Please don't say all responsible breeders line breed or that one is ignorant if they don't believe in it. There is so much genetic potential out there to discover, line breeding takes much of that discovery away and why limit yourself to trying to recreate, instead of create. Limiting genetic diversity over time has negative effects. You guys have pointed to dogs? Show me a linebred, purebred that lives as long or healthy as a hybrid vigor mutt. Match all the chromosomes you want, in the end it's a dead end with decreased ruggedness to boot. Horses today are more prone to break down or be unhealthy, as ever before.
The way to not linebred to get consistency is breed two individuals with similar phenotypes and differing genotypes. i am not trying to convince anyone not to linebreed, but don't tell me that it is the only way. Line reeding has its downside and even AQHA is trying to push back, truthfully one of the last places I would think to do so.
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
From the article, "“We need to outcross,” Dr. McCue says, simply. “If we continue to use three or four sires to create most of our elite performers within a population, we will continue to decrease genetic diversity and increase inbreeding. We can only do that for so many generations before there is a problem.”
The data also suggest that the Thoroughbred might not be a significant source for genetic diversity for the modern Quarter Horse."
Linebreeding has nothing in common with cloning. Not even close. But I do agree that cloning is a disaster of the first order. So far, they haven't even been able to get anything in the first generation that can perform or is genetically sound. It appears the second generation is a bust as well.
AQHA was founded on linebred and inbred horses. The seed stock for the breed is linebred or inbred except before 1940. The only exception is TB, since that's the only outcross allowed. BUT all the successful TB outcrosses have been similar in they have the same dozen or so TB's they are linebred to. There we go with the linebreeding again.
I don't think barrel horse pedigrees are at risk of becoming too linebred. I really don't. There will always be new lines that become popular and we have a dozen to pick from now as oppose to the cutting horse pedigrees of the last few decades. Five or six crosses to Doc Bar in the first 4-5 generations is a little much. They need to outcross. But to what? Some people SAY they need to breed to a TB. I've always maintained they need to find a registered quarter horse (racebred) with the characteristics of a cutting horse. He should look a lot like DB. I saw Pure D Dash in person when he was alive. I think he had the right structure and size to be an outcross for a cowhorse. If he had the mind for it. That I don't know. There are possible outcross candidates out there. They just have to find the right ones.
The problem when the quarter horse industry has outcrossed to a TB, a lot of times they pick a classic distance TB. That's NOT the right type. They have the wrong build and musculature for a cutting horse or even for a sprinting quarter horse. Then they wonder why the results are so tepid. Breeding AQHA race mares (no matter how nice they are) to Storm Cat didn't work very well and who wants to breed to a horse that couldn't perform?
Miss N Cash is the result of an outcross between two of the best horses in their respective events. Even though he was a good performer, the cutting industry didn't embrace him. They chose to stick with linebreeding to DB who himself was an outcross to the King bred mares of the day. If it doesn't work, people are not going to go there. In fact, people have proven they only breed for the moment when it comes to their pocketbook.
People can preach all they want about outcrossing. But until people start embracing the outcrosses, the people breeding them can't sell them because they don't perform. Therefore they aren't going to breed them. Simple. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | One more point. The purpose of linebreeding or inbreeding is to set the type. Then you outcross. Outcrossing = hybrid vigor. While maintaining type.
I have a close bred stallion (non DFC). Most of my mares are DFC bred, or something else totally different from him. Some have more Jet Deck but it's 4th or 5th generation.
Edited by OregonBR 2015-11-06 12:52 PM
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