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Expert
Posts: 1477
  
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | Kick so hard during a run? know not every one does it but a lot do and I'm also guilty of it. I have many pictures of me flying our of my saddle cause of "starfishing". I read something the other day that got e to thinking about something. When I sprint my horses at home I put my hand forward and they go. All of them do. But when I make a barrel run I kick them to death ain't because I was taught if you want them to run you have to kick kick kick and it becomes habit. It's a habit I wish I could break. I been watching the NFR girls and none of them that I've seen kick their horse to death. I've trying not doing it but adrenaline takes over and I'll start kicking hard agin. How do I break this habit? | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1162
Location: White Mountains of AZ | Tie your legs down!! JK I don't know know to fix it, but I have notcied that. I'v never really kicked my horses, nudging yes, but never kicked during a run | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 425
Location: California | Hmmm maybe hang your stirrups low for a while? Or take them off the saddle? Maybe you won't be as prone to kicking, because you'll be too busy holding on with your thighs? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1261
| I think the starfishing thing happens when the rider gets behind the motion and their but bounces off the saddle but they keep kicking. I try to do more just bumping to encourage my horse, she's super super ratey but I think you can do little bumps with just the calf down much faster and encourage them to get without kicking the air out or getting behind and then in the turn I just move my feet just a little to keep her moving around. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
 
Location: North Dakota | If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction. | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 234
Location: Oklahoma | I always wonder this, as you dont see jockey's kicking during races. I try to be quite with my feet when riding, I dont like it when you see the girls kicking and you can here the horse grunting during the run cuz they are kicking so hard. | |
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 "Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | wishes4kissez - 2015-12-07 11:53 AM
I think the starfishing thing happens when the rider gets behind the motion and their but bounces off the saddle but they keep kicking. I try to do more just bumping to encourage my horse, she's super super ratey but I think you can do little bumps with just the calf down much faster and encourage them to get without kicking the air out or getting behind and then in the turn I just move my feet just a little to keep her moving around.
I agree with you about someone getting behind or getting popped out of the saddle and continuing to kick (I get popped about every run!) but there is also those that 'kick from the hip'. Not giving my opinion as to whether it's good or bad, just noticing that sometimes it's not a mistake or a 'pop up' but rather deliberate when you kick with your whole leg. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1261
| whiplashranch - 2015-12-07 10:00 AM
wishes4kissez - 2015-12-07 11:53 AM
I think the starfishing thing happens when the rider gets behind the motion and their but bounces off the saddle but they keep kicking. I try to do more just bumping to encourage my horse, she's super super ratey but I think you can do little bumps with just the calf down much faster and encourage them to get without kicking the air out or getting behind and then in the turn I just move my feet just a little to keep her moving around.
I agree with you about someone getting behind or getting popped out of the saddle and continuing to kick (I get popped about every run! ) but there is also those that 'kick from the hip'. Not giving my opinion as to whether it's good or bad, just noticing that sometimes it's not a mistake or a 'pop up' but rather deliberate when you kick with your whole leg.
I guess when I picture starfishing I picture the butt of the rider two foot above the saddle lol. But yes I know some people do just kick with the whole leg too. | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
| sam.kappen - 2015-12-07 12:59 PM I always wonder this, as you dont see jockey's kicking during races. I try to be quite with my feet when riding, I dont like it when you see the girls kicking and you can here the horse grunting during the run cuz they are kicking so hard.
lol u don/t see jockey kicking as they are up off horses back in short irons | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1631
Location: Somewhere around here | I think it was ten years ago when I first saw girls really kicking their horses running home. I never did it but I thought "what the heck, they're pretty fast so I'll try it". Tried it once running home and my poor horse, I could hear her grunt after that kick. I felt so bad after that I've never done it again.
What you could do is put a reminder on your horse, kind of like wrapping a string around your finger. Instead tie something off in your horses hair or put your horses mane in a half bun right in the middle of her neck. Lol it might look silly if your at a barrel race but if it helps then it's worth looking silly for a while until you break yourself of the habit. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | cecollins0811 - 2015-12-07 12:32 PM I think it was ten years ago when I first saw girls really kicking their horses running home. I never did it but I thought "what the heck, they're pretty fast so I'll try it". Tried it once running home and my poor horse, I could hear her grunt after that kick. I felt so bad after that I've never done it again. What you could do is put a reminder on your horse, kind of like wrapping a string around your finger. Instead tie something off in your horses hair or put your horses mane in a half bun right in the middle of her neck. Lol it might look silly if your at a barrel race but if it helps then it's worth looking silly for a while until you break yourself of the habit.
I actually did this for my sister. She didn't kick but she had a habit of sitting too early and making her horse turn into barrels at shows, so I put a rubber band in his mane as a reminder to stay forward. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | Yes, I was just thinking about this the other day! I'm guilty too. I've wondered also about those aluminum stirrups. I was carrying my saddle the other day and my stirrup just clunked my shin a little bit but it hurt more than you would think it would. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-07 11:58 AM If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction.
I feel afraid to say something because who I am to critique the NFR riders? But I personally am not a fan of how Sarah Rose rides Bling. All that hand motion makes the reins move, makes the bit move. Whatever happened to quiet hands? I understand she's really got to push Bling into the turn so she doesn't turn too soon, but I wonder if Bling would be even better with someone who kept their upper body STILL? I just see weight getting thrown all over the place instead of staying nice and balanced; her upper body is all over the place (mostly forward over the front end, putting more weight on the front end). I also do feel like she kicks rather hard, instead of encouraging bumps.
I love watching Bling work. I think she's such a cool horse. But they are probably my least favorite pair at the NFR only because I personally don't like how her rider rides.
Sincere congrats to them for winning Round 4. But I too, wonder about all the kicking.
https://vimeo.com/148055807
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Regular
Posts: 95
| Run your pattern bareback. If you can do that without falling off I'd say you should be successful in breaking the habit then. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
| r_beau - 2015-12-07 1:08 PM
cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-07 11:58 AM If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction.
I feel afraid to say something because who I am to critique the NFR riders? But I personally am not a fan of how Sarah Rose rides Bling. All that hand motion makes the reins move, makes the bit move. Whatever happened to quiet hands? I understand she's really got to push Bling into the turn so she doesn't turn too soon, but I wonder if Bling would be even better with someone who kept their upper body STILL? I just see weight getting thrown all over the place instead of staying nice and balanced; her upper body is all over the place (mostly forward over the front end, putting more weight on the front end). I also do feel like she kicks rather hard, instead of encouraging bumps.
I love watching Bling work. I think she's such a cool horse. But they are probably my least favorite pair at the NFR only because I personally don't like how her rider rides.
Sincere congrats to them for winning Round 4. But I too, wonder about all the kicking.
https://vimeo.com/148055807
This is a reson why I love to watch Nancy Hunter ride!!! She uses such quiet hands and it is just fun to watch! | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| r_beau - 2015-12-07 1:08 PM
cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-07 11:58 AM If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction.
I feel afraid to say something because who I am to critique the NFR riders? But I personally am not a fan of how Sarah Rose rides Bling. All that hand motion makes the reins move, makes the bit move. Whatever happened to quiet hands? I understand she's really got to push Bling into the turn so she doesn't turn too soon, but I wonder if Bling would be even better with someone who kept their upper body STILL? I just see weight getting thrown all over the place instead of staying nice and balanced; her upper body is all over the place (mostly forward over the front end, putting more weight on the front end). I also do feel like she kicks rather hard, instead of encouraging bumps.
I love watching Bling work. I think she's such a cool horse. But they are probably my least favorite pair at the NFR only because I personally don't like how her rider rides.
Sincere congrats to them for winning Round 4. But I too, wonder about all the kicking.
https://vimeo.com/148055807
I'm really glad I'm not the only one who noticed.. Congrats to her for making it there but I cringe when she comes into the arena. Even my non-horse friends watching the NFR with me asked why she was flopping around so much. I guess if it works for ya, it works but I also wonder how much better Bling would be. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 456
Location: SW MO | WiscoRacer - 2015-12-07 1:27 PM
r_beau - 2015-12-07 1:08 PM
cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-07 11:58 AM If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction.
I feel afraid to say something because who I am to critique the NFR riders? But I personally am not a fan of how Sarah Rose rides Bling. All that hand motion makes the reins move, makes the bit move. Whatever happened to quiet hands? I understand she's really got to push Bling into the turn so she doesn't turn too soon, but I wonder if Bling would be even better with someone who kept their upper body STILL? I just see weight getting thrown all over the place instead of staying nice and balanced; her upper body is all over the place (mostly forward over the front end, putting more weight on the front end). I also do feel like she kicks rather hard, instead of encouraging bumps.
I love watching Bling work. I think she's such a cool horse. But they are probably my least favorite pair at the NFR only because I personally don't like how her rider rides.
Sincere congrats to them for winning Round 4. But I too, wonder about all the kicking.
https://vimeo.com/148055807
I'm really glad I'm not the only one who noticed.. Congrats to her for making it there but I cringe when she comes into the arena. Even my non-horse friends watching the NFR with me asked why she was flopping around so much. I guess if it works for ya, it works but I also wonder how much better Bling would be.
I am not an NFR barrel racer but I would say that different horses work better in different circumstances. Sarah has rode bling to wins everywhere. She has rode that horse like that since her NBHA days. If you read her comments or listen to her videos she says that the horse needs pushed every step or she won't make the best run. I have a horse that runs better if youre up over her with your hands reaching up by her ears, she just fires harder. that being said I rarely kick hard (I just physically am unable to). I don't think that horses need the tar kicked out of them but I think that each horse responds to different encouragement differently. Just like some horses won't run if you use a whip or spurs- some horses won't run if you aren't up over them hustling. | |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | r_beau - 2015-12-07 11:08 AM
cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-07 11:58 AM If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction.
I feel afraid to say something because who I am to critique the NFR riders? But I personally am not a fan of how Sarah Rose rides Bling. All that hand motion makes the reins move, makes the bit move. Whatever happened to quiet hands? I understand she's really got to push Bling into the turn so she doesn't turn too soon, but I wonder if Bling would be even better with someone who kept their upper body STILL? I just see weight getting thrown all over the place instead of staying nice and balanced; her upper body is all over the place (mostly forward over the front end, putting more weight on the front end). I also do feel like she kicks rather hard, instead of encouraging bumps.
I love watching Bling work. I think she's such a cool horse. But they are probably my least favorite pair at the NFR only because I personally don't like how her rider rides.
Sincere congrats to them for winning Round 4. But I too, wonder about all the kicking.
https://vimeo.com/148055807
Watch her runs in slow motion.... | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | WiscoRacer - 2015-12-07 1:27 PM r_beau - 2015-12-07 1:08 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-07 11:58 AM If you look at the science of it, "starfishing" as it is called, is absolutely detrimental to the horse's physical and mental well being. Not do horses have extremely sensitive skin, but each time your legs are coming down and hitting that horse, you're potentially knocking the wind out of them. I mean, do YOU want to get kicked in the ribs while trying to run your fastest? Many girls also bounce several inches out of the saddle each time they kick. That is 100+ lbs of force landing on that horse's back repeatedly. Not good for their spine. Couple that with the rough hands I see all too often at barrel races and no wonder so many horses have gate issues. They learn to associate barrel racing with pain. No wonder so many are on stuff for ulcers and calming. Injected with this and that. Covered in magnets and BOT and every other therapy system out there. Too many people, rather than learn to ride correctly, pay for everything under the sun to treat the symptoms and the cycle continues. To say that a horse "needs" to be kicked to go is utter BS. If you train the horse to respond to a light touch from the beginning, that is all they will eve need. It is entirely possible. I know this because I have seen it and I have done it. There are some really good racers out there, at all levels, that ride quietly and correctly and their horses perform well and are visibly happier and more comfortable.
That is why watching the NFR even is bittersweet for me. Yes, you have to work hard to get there and I don't want to knock anyone but I can't help but feel some of these horses are doing well in spite of their riders. I mean, look at Fallon and Babyflo. I like Fallon a lot. She's a fantastic businesswoman and I have a lot of respect for her promoting the helmets and adding a lot of flair to the barrel pen. She seems like a really fun, cool person. BUT her riding. Oh my. She has definitely improved but if she would just take the time to work on herself and get quieter in her body and hands I think she would be even more competitive! I have seen one more than one occasion pictures of her with her bit pulled so far through her horse's mouth that I can see the joint in the middle of the mouthpiece. That is not good horsemanship. And lots of kids see her too and want to ride like Fallon, multiplying the issue. I know I'm picking on her but there are a few of them that really do just make me cringe to watch.
Ever discipline has its issues, and this is one of the most prevalent for barrel racing. I wish I could change the thinking people have regarding training and riding. I probably sound like a broken record but if people stopped focusing so much on "drills" to "fix" issues, training gadgets, etc. And started working on basic dressage and really learning how to control both their own and the horse's body with subtle aids, the barrel racing world would be moving in a very positive direction. I feel afraid to say something because who I am to critique the NFR riders? But I personally am not a fan of how Sarah Rose rides Bling. All that hand motion makes the reins move, makes the bit move. Whatever happened to quiet hands? I understand she's really got to push Bling into the turn so she doesn't turn too soon, but I wonder if Bling would be even better with someone who kept their upper body STILL? I just see weight getting thrown all over the place instead of staying nice and balanced; her upper body is all over the place (mostly forward over the front end, putting more weight on the front end). I also do feel like she kicks rather hard, instead of encouraging bumps.
I love watching Bling work. I think she's such a cool horse. But they are probably my least favorite pair at the NFR only because I personally don't like how her rider rides.
Sincere congrats to them for winning Round 4. But I too, wonder about all the kicking.
https://vimeo.com/148055807
I'm really glad I'm not the only one who noticed.. Congrats to her for making it there but I cringe when she comes into the arena. Even my non-horse friends watching the NFR with me asked why she was flopping around so much. I guess if it works for ya, it works but I also wonder how much better Bling would be.
I agree. Like, I'm madly in love with Bling so I cheer for her. I'm sure Sarah is great but yeah her riding is so floppy I can't look away. The physics just don't make sense to me. | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Wow is all I can say, now why are you girls bashing Sarah and Fallon on their riding styles, they are kicking booty and at the NFR, we all ride different, they ride their way and we ride our way..And Sarah, when she leaves the barrels up you had better watch out cause shes going to be bringing home a big fat check, while we are all home watching her at the NFR   | |
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Elite Veteran
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I have to agree! Without riding any of the horses personally, I sure wouldn't judge anyone for how they ride them!  | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 456
Location: SW MO | STX pony girl I am with you, not sure if it was super clear in my post but I am right there with ya!   | |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | DO NOT FLAME ME I know this is wrong but this is what I need to stop doing. This is me at youth world in 2009. I know it's an old pic but I still do it.
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton | P68 - 2015-12-07 1:22 PM
Run your pattern bareback. If you can do that without falling off I'd say you should be successful in breaking the habit then.
I do good to walk around the arena bare back without falling off. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1477
Location: In the land of peanuts and cotton |
This is what I was wondering. This is NOT what I made this post for. Personally I love Sarah and Bling always have since way back before everyone knew who Sarah and Bling was. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | TessBelle - 2015-12-07 2:40 PM This is what I was wondering. This is NOT what I made this post for. Personally I love Sarah and Bling always have since way back before everyone knew who Sarah and Bling was.
I know this is not what you wanted..LOL
I dont want your post getting deleted so I had to put my 2 cents in here. Theres a reason why these girls are running at the NFR, cause they worked hard and can ride. | |
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One Grateful Mom
Posts: 2702
Location: wolverton,mn | I border between being really disgusted and sad at these posts, or really angry and laugh.
how many of you have even rode a horse of this caliber?
How many of you run in the 1-d,top of the five in a tough rodeo?
How many of you have trained multiple horses?
Sarah has rode many other horses,she rides different on this mare than the others. This is a ratey,turny horse. Sarah rides other horses much more " correct" and " squared up" If you haven't rode a very hard to ride horse, find one,try it, then let us examine your video and we can see if you are correct. Speed is far different from a dressage course. The mechanics and feel should be there in the training but add a lot of speed a hard to ride horse and you all may change your tune
Edited by hotbear03 2015-12-07 2:52 PM
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One Grateful Mom
Posts: 2702
Location: wolverton,mn | Really easy to take a 1-d horse and make it a 3- d or 4- d horse,trying to be " correct"
It takes a rider to take a 1-d horse and keep it a 1-d horse | |
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | hotbear03 - 2015-12-07 2:54 PM Really easy to take a 1-d horse and make it a 3- d or 4- d horse,trying to be " correct"
It takes a rider to take a 1-d horse and keep it a 1-d horse
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota |
I don't feel I was BASHING anyone. Is it "bashing" to question things? It can be a discussion instead of turning into bashing the "bashers". (Pun intended.)
I do wonder: do the kicks have to be HARD? Would they be just as effective as a bump instead? One thing I notice on Sarah's winning run, as she comes into the first barrel from the alley, is she is NOT kicking her. Granted I know horses can handle/approach each barrel differently, but she had a beautiful first barrel without all the hard kicking going into the approach.
Is the LEANING necessary for some horses? I wonder if her leaning forward cues Bling to start turning, and thus she needs to keep kicking so hard? As far as during the turn, I guess I don't know any barrel trainer who advocates leaning your upper body inward, which she routinely does leaving the barrel turn. I've always been told to stay square. As far as leaning forward coming into the turn, I can't quite recall which barrel trainer it was that did a series in Barrel Horse News awhile back about a horse that had a tendency to fall or trip in the turn, and it was because the rider would lean foward and put all the weight on the front end. The horse couldn't get "freed up". The series was about teaching the rider to stay balanced in the saddle so the horse could keep it's front end free. The tripping stopped as a result. Would Bling be even faster in her turns, if the rider's weight was more centered? Do any of you ride your horse's like this?
Do the hands HAVE to be moving by measures of feet, up and down the neck? Can you still "push" and "drive" your horse with quieter hands that move less (inches), and still be effective? I know Lisa always talks about how much work it is to ride Louie, yet she still looks so quiet. And whenever I post a video to critique, my bad habit that is pointed out is flapping arms (which has gotten much better over the years as I've worked on it; only happens on rare occaisons now.) But it is okay to flap your arms because you are a NFR caliber horse/rider pair?
Honestly myself, I don't have too many questions about how Fallon rides. She does bump BabyFlo with her legs but they aren't hard kicks; not in comparison to Sarah's. Fallon's hands do get way up there on her neck, but she's also keeping her lower body still so it seems to be balanced (not to mention BabyFlo has a really short neck b/c she's a small horse.)
It's hard not seeing a quiet rider. Since I do venture into other avenues (reining, english, etc) I often find myself having to defend barrel racing when people see the professionals with arms and legs flapping, butt out of the seat, etc, and me trying to explain that that's not how we go about it and that's not how you effectively ride a barrel horse.
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | hotbear03 - 2015-12-07 2:49 PM I border between being really disgusted and sad at these posts, or really angry and laugh.
how many of you have even rode a horse of this caliber?
How many of you run in the 1-d,top of the five in a tough rodeo?
How many of you have trained multiple horses?
Sarah has rode many other horses,she rides different on this mare than the others. This is a ratey,turny horse. Sarah rides other horses much more " correct" and " squared up" If you haven't rode a very hard to ride horse, find one,try it, then let us examine your video and we can see if you are correct. Speed is far different from a dressage course. The mechanics and feel should be there in the training but add a lot of speed a hard to ride horse and you all may change your tune
Well a hypothetical question:
If I made a thread on here and asked for a video critique and my run looked like Sarah's ....... what would you say?
I totally get your point. I'm not Sarah and I'm not on her horse. My butt would probably have landed in the T&M dirt. Clearly they are a good pair and work well together. Doesn't mean I'm "bashing" when I ask questions.
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | hotbear03 - 2015-12-07 2:49 PM I border between being really disgusted and sad at these posts, or really angry and laugh.
how many of you have even rode a horse of this caliber?
How many of you run in the 1-d,top of the five in a tough rodeo?
How many of you have trained multiple horses?
Sarah has rode many other horses,she rides different on this mare than the others. This is a ratey,turny horse. Sarah rides other horses much more " correct" and " squared up" If you haven't rode a very hard to ride horse, find one,try it, then let us examine your video and we can see if you are correct. Speed is far different from a dressage course. The mechanics and feel should be there in the training but add a lot of speed a hard to ride horse and you all may change your tune
This...I know personnally, I should be kicking MORE- and so should most people who really THINK they are hustling their horse-they appear to be afraid to kick them at all. I have never been one to be able to jockey my horse with my hands-it seems to be the one thing that bothers ME the most.
What I notice from watching this years NFR is that quiet horses usually mean quiet riders, those horses that are a little crazier and more wild eyed-seem to have a comparable jockey. It definitely takes all kinds and to say that someone needs to go back to basics is OK however, I feel like I should go to the race track and learn the "fast" way to maneuver a horse.....
To the OP-If I were in your position and looking for a way to improve I would try to find a few different saddles to try-there are so many and they ride so differently and put you in a different position that you may find one that helps you stay balanced and won't even ALLOW your feet to come that far away from the horse-I think sometimes the ability to keep your skinny butt in the saddle is a hinderance-just like my fat arse doesn't want to come up out of the saddle :) is a hinderance too. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| r_beau - 2015-12-07 3:37 PM
I don't feel I was BASHING anyone. Is it "bashing" to question things? It can be a discussion instead of turning into bashing the "bashers". (Pun intended.)
I do wonder: do the kicks have to be HARD? Would they be just as effective as a bump instead? One thing I notice on Sarah's winning run, as she comes into the first barrel from the alley, is she is NOT kicking her. Granted I know horses can handle/approach each barrel differently, but she had a beautiful first barrel without all the hard kicking going into the approach.
Is the LEANING necessary for some horses? I wonder if her leaning forward cues Bling to start turning, and thus she needs to keep kicking so hard? As far as during the turn, I guess I don't know any barrel trainer who advocates leaning your upper body inward, which she routinely does leaving the barrel turn. I've always been told to stay square. As far as leaning forward coming into the turn, I can't quite recall which barrel trainer it was that did a series in Barrel Horse News awhile back about a horse that had a tendency to fall or trip in the turn, and it was because the rider would lean foward and put all the weight on the front end. The horse couldn't get "freed up". The series was about teaching the rider to stay balanced in the saddle so the horse could keep it's front end free. The tripping stopped as a result. Would Bling be even faster in her turns, if the rider's weight was more centered? Do any of you ride your horse's like this?
Do the hands HAVE to be moving by measures of feet, up and down the neck? Can you still "push" and "drive" your horse with quieter hands that move less (inches), and still be effective? I know Lisa always talks about how much work it is to ride Louie, yet she still looks so quiet. And whenever I post a video to critique, my bad habit that is pointed out is flapping arms (which has gotten much better over the years as I've worked on it; only happens on rare occaisons now.) But it is okay to flap your arms because you are a NFR caliber horse/rider pair?
Honestly myself, I don't have too many questions about how Fallon rides. She does bump BabyFlo with her legs but they aren't hard kicks; not in comparison to Sarah's. Fallon's hands do get way up there on her neck, but she's also keeping her lower body still so it seems to be balanced (not to mention BabyFlo has a really short neck b/c she's a small horse.)
It's hard not seeing a quiet rider. Since I do venture into other avenues (reining, english, etc) I often find myself having to defend barrel racing when people see the professionals with arms and legs flapping, butt out of the seat, etc, and me trying to explain that that's not how we go about it and that's not how you effectively ride a barrel horse.
Not all horses can be ridden in the same way. Some horses need quiet, correct riders and some need energetic, enthusiastic riders. I am sure Sarah and Fallon know their horses well enough to know exactly how they need ridden and they're not going to jeopardize a chance at winning by going out and yeehawing the heck out of their horse if it's going to hurt their times. | |
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One Grateful Mom
Posts: 2702
Location: wolverton,mn | I don't think anyone would argue Lisa's advice and riding technique. I rodeoed with her starting in 1988. She has always been a classy and excellent rider. A quiet and beautiful trainer and rider.
There are many ways to clock,and as long as you know your horse and it's working,the peanut gallery is just that. Unless of course the n.f.r. Gals are paying you for advice on how to ride their horses.
Sometimes the runs that clock are not the prettiest,sometimes they are
Edited by hotbear03 2015-12-07 4:16 PM
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One Grateful Mom
Posts: 2702
Location: wolverton,mn | I sure hope one of the horses I'm riding now isn't a indication of what kind of " rider" or trainer I am,she's a mess.
Ive learned throughout all my years of rodeoing,horses are all different,you ride the race,step by step. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| r_beau - 2015-12-07 3:37 PM
I don't feel I was BASHING anyone. Is it "bashing" to question things? It can be a discussion instead of turning into bashing the "bashers". (Pun intended.)
I do wonder: do the kicks have to be HARD? Would they be just as effective as a bump instead? One thing I notice on Sarah's winning run, as she comes into the first barrel from the alley, is she is NOT kicking her. Granted I know horses can handle/approach each barrel differently, but she had a beautiful first barrel without all the hard kicking going into the approach.
Is the LEANING necessary for some horses? I wonder if her leaning forward cues Bling to start turning, and thus she needs to keep kicking so hard? As far as during the turn, I guess I don't know any barrel trainer who advocates leaning your upper body inward, which she routinely does leaving the barrel turn. I've always been told to stay square. As far as leaning forward coming into the turn, I can't quite recall which barrel trainer it was that did a series in Barrel Horse News awhile back about a horse that had a tendency to fall or trip in the turn, and it was because the rider would lean foward and put all the weight on the front end. The horse couldn't get "freed up". The series was about teaching the rider to stay balanced in the saddle so the horse could keep it's front end free. The tripping stopped as a result. Would Bling be even faster in her turns, if the rider's weight was more centered? Do any of you ride your horse's like this?
Do the hands HAVE to be moving by measures of feet, up and down the neck? Can you still "push" and "drive" your horse with quieter hands that move less (inches), and still be effective? I know Lisa always talks about how much work it is to ride Louie, yet she still looks so quiet. And whenever I post a video to critique, my bad habit that is pointed out is flapping arms (which has gotten much better over the years as I've worked on it; only happens on rare occaisons now.) But it is okay to flap your arms because you are a NFR caliber horse/rider pair?
Honestly myself, I don't have too many questions about how Fallon rides. She does bump BabyFlo with her legs but they aren't hard kicks; not in comparison to Sarah's. Fallon's hands do get way up there on her neck, but she's also keeping her lower body still so it seems to be balanced (not to mention BabyFlo has a really short neck b/c she's a small horse.)
It's hard not seeing a quiet rider. Since I do venture into other avenues (reining, english, etc) I often find myself having to defend barrel racing when people see the professionals with arms and legs flapping, butt out of the seat, etc, and me trying to explain that that's not how we go about it and that's not how you effectively ride a barrel horse.
Ed wright who has coached most of the NFR barrel champions throughout their career, and has also trained many top futurity and open horses with his wife.
He advocates for riding forward with hands above the centre of the neck, whole keeping your but deep within the saddle.
As my thoughts on Bling, do I think anyone else could get her to do what Sarah has, I doubt it. I have one horse that is similar, when I even start thinking about turning, mine is turning and it doesn't matter if the barrel is there or not.
I think Bling is a cool horse, Sarah is a phenomenal rider, they are a great team, if Sarah tried your suggestions, she would be knocking not winning. | |
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One Grateful Mom
Posts: 2702
Location: wolverton,mn | Great point,Cheryl.
Nothing more to add | |
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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | My comments.... many years ago when I was young and thin (think 5'8" and ~ 130 lbs.) I rode barrel horses a lot. I am not bragging, but I was a very good rider and also showed horses in horsemanship, equitation, reining, cutting, and was a very handy and successful roper -- and even hazed for quite a few fellas -- and won my share of saddles, buckles, trophies, etc. I was privileged to ride some really nice barrel horses -- some were big horses and some were small horses (from 16.2 hands to just over 14 h.) There were two small horses I rode that were hell to sit on through a turn. I was not by nature a wild kicker or arm waver -- due to all of my horsemanship, etc.... I general sit at a horse very well and had extremely strong legs. But those two were demons to ride. When they turned a barrel they dropped right out from under you and made their moves - each had this style but their own little quirks with it. I had photos of me on these horses "air borne". One of them I did not ride very long....she scared me. She was fast and a winner, but on my gosh, sitting on her through a turn was nearly impossible. Two other small horses I rode were totally dreams to ride. Photos of me on them show me sitting there as I should - with butt in saddle. Photos on the other two turning -- well, you had serious doubts I stayed on. I rode one big mare (right at 16 h) that was also somewhat tough to sit on due to her style, but she was not nearly as wild as the two small sorrels. I am positive I would be photographed in a very unflattering pose if I tried to ride BabyFlo around a barrel..... I admire each and every woman and her horses that are at the NFR -- they all are terrific horsewomen who have worked very hard to get there. The fact they get in and out of Thomas Mack ten times impresses the hell out of me.
I do hate to see a rider kicking the air out of their horses -- I was taught to be still and help my horses. Keep my butt in the saddle -- but as stated - there were a few horses that I was not capable of doing that. I got off them.
Edited by Delta Cowgirl 2015-12-07 5:32 PM
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Extreme Veteran
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Not bashing! We're all allowed an opinion and to ask questions It's great that she got there and it obviously works, it's just my opinion that it isn't the prettiest, and like r_beau said, I'm sure you'd all laugh me out of BHW if I tried to post a critique video that looked like how she rides. Just some food for thought! | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | You know that Tessbelle started this thread wanting help on her kicking, but some had to bring up the girls at the NFL, if you could please stick to the question that she had, she would still like help.. Shes a pretty sweet girl and dont like what she is seeing here. All she wants is some help. ") | |
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 BHW Tour Guide & Concierge
Location: Cyberspace | Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-07 6:12 PM You know that Tessbelle started this thread wanting help on her kicking, but some had to bring up the girls at the NFL, if you could please stick to the question that she had, she would still like help.. Shes a pretty sweet girl and dont like what she is seeing here. All she wants is some help. ")
This started out as a simple question that turned negative. Thank you Southtxponygirl for pointing this out. Let's keep on topic without turning it into negative comments about other people. Everyone's help is needed to ensure this forum remains a professional place where people can exchange ideas and thoughts without worry of being ambushed.
Have fun - and enjoy.
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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | TessBelle - 2015-12-07 2:37 PM P68 - 2015-12-07 1:22 PM Run your pattern bareback. If you can do that without falling off I'd say you should be successful in breaking the habit then. I do good to walk around the arena bare back without falling off.
I would start here..
I HATE riding bareback, mostly because it's hard. But riding bareback will help your riding so much! I force myself to ride bareback a few times a week to work on my balance.
If you are uncomfortable start in a round pen and then work your way up.
Think about not kicking before every run, have that be your one goal for a few runs. Don't worry about your times at first, you can then slowly re train yourself to "bump" instead of kicking. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | outrundaizy - 2015-12-07 6:51 PM TessBelle - 2015-12-07 2:37 PM P68 - 2015-12-07 1:22 PM Run your pattern bareback. If you can do that without falling off I'd say you should be successful in breaking the habit then. I do good to walk around the arena bare back without falling off.
I HATE riding bareback, mostly because it's hard. But riding bareback will help your riding so much! I force myself to ride bareback a few times a week to work on my balance.
If you are uncomfortable start in a round pen and then work your way up.
Think about not kicking before every run, have that be your one goal for a few runs. Don't worry about your times at first, you can then slowly re train yourself to "bump" instead of kicking.
I used to love riding bareback or without stirrups, but don't do it anymore. My mare is young and can be broncy, my gelding is a shying SOB and I only have one balance nerve left. Bad combination. LOL
Instead of thinking about what not to do, think about what you want to do and build muscle memory. You want to kick from the knee down, in rhythm with the horse's stride. Practice it slow, practice it fast where there's no pressure. Practice it off the pattern, on the pattern, keep doing it until you do it that way on autopilot. With time, even when the pressure is on and adrenaline flowing, the correct thing will happen because that has become your default. | |
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