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| at 24-26 mos (2yo) to foal at 33-35 mos (3yo) due to being permanently broodmare sound only
ETA: I am just mulling it around. Not planning anything. She is for sure not going to be able to handle any type of performance. We will be lucky if she can be rode at all. This girl has tried to cut off each leg at least once in the last year in three different living arrangements/ fence settings. Still haven't found what she's doing it on lol.
Edited by RoaniePonie11 2015-12-08 3:35 PM
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | No
ETA: I guess it depends on the size. But I personally wouldn't breed a 2 year old, and probably not a 3 year old.
Edited by hoofs_in_motion 2015-12-08 3:08 PM
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 Expert
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Location: Gainesville, TX | It will effect the foal which will be undersized and likely result in a difficult birth because mare is too small. |
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Expert
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| "Thus, assuming a normal growth rate, a filly bred at 22-24 months will probably have 98% or more of her growth already completed by the time she encounters the higher demands of late pregnancy, making marked stunting unlikely. (There is some anecdotal evidence that the type of filly that is likely to show early sexual maturity tends to be of the smaller, early-developing type physically as well, which may account for the persistent belief that an early pregnancy will stunt a filly.)"
-Bloodhorse.com speaking of Smarty Jones who became "grandget" at just 3 years old.
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Expert
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| " In a study of 137 yearling mares bred, no increased dangers to the mare were identified (Mitchell, Allen. Observation on reproductive performance in the yearling mare. J. Repo. Fertil. Suppl. 1975;23:531). "
-Robert N. Oglesby, DVM. Equine Vet and breeder out of NC, USA. |
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
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Location: Four Corners Colorado | If she is going to no doubt be unsound I'd go ahead and breed her just make sure she get the best nutrition possible. |
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Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | equussynergy - 2015-12-08 2:31 PM If she is going to no doubt be unsound I'd go ahead and breed her just make sure she get the best nutrition possible.
And I mean the best nutrition now and while she is in foal. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 3:30 PM
" In a study of 137 yearling mares bred, no increased dangers to the mare were identified (Mitchell, Allen. Observation on reproductive performance in the yearling mare. J. Repo. Fertil. Suppl. 1975;23:531). "
-Robert N. Oglesby, DVM. Equine Vet and breeder out of NC, USA.
And the size of the foal? Can you find anything newer than 1975? |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| I just did a basic search. I haven't dug deep. I might look around at work tonight (equine vet specializing in repro) and see if I can find some good recent stuff. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | http://www.thehorse.com/articles/28515/appropriate-breeding-age
From 2012, PHD in the field. Yes it stunts their growth. Yes they have more trouble. Yes the foal is smaller. A few benefits in terms of mares behavior. |
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas |
good information. thank you for sharing |
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Expert
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| I had read that article and it talks about breeding yearlings, foaling as 2yos and breeding 3yos, foaling as 4yos. I must have missed where it talked about breeding 2yos, foaling as 3yos.
ETA: here is what I got from the article about foaling as 3yo:
"Similarly, maternal behavior is variable and often a bit delayed in some 2- and 3-year-old first-time dams."
"Under natural conditions, fillies that first foal as 2-year-olds usually do not grow to be as big as mares that do not foal until 3 years of age, and their first foals tend to be smaller adults as well."
" Dr. McDonnell's findings that under natural conditions fillies that foal for the first time as 2-year-olds (as well as their offspring) usually do not grow as big as mares that do not foal for the first time until 3 years of age supports that rationale."
As far as training, this was also pulled from the article:
"For a young mare, having a foal before training can have distinct benefits. From having known and worked regularly with dozens of mares that foaled young, it is my impression that most seem to mature by leaps and bounds with foaling and caring for a foal. They tend to mellow with regard to human handling and training, seem less fearful and distracted, and are better able to focus on human direction. So breeding could be an ideal interlude between basic training and serious dressage training."
Edited by RoaniePonie11 2015-12-08 4:12 PM
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Expert
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Location: Gainesville, TX | Article also specifically recommends waiting to breed, not foal, between 3 to 10. I would think yearlings are the most problematic to breed but you would still have some issues with foaling at 3, just not as many. And article also still intimates that foal size is affected. Have you read the Ranger piece on skeletal maturity in horses. It's more for riding but something to consider for this too. There's still a whole lot of joint fusing and growing going on in three year olds. It's a really high stress growth time and a time when they are often experiencing a lot of 'growing pains'. I'd hate to put the additional stress of a foal on an animal struggling with that. Just because a 15 year old girl can have a baby doesn't mean she should. It's comparable. I'd say breeding a yearling is more like a 13-14 year old. |
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I just read the headlines
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| My daughter bought a barely 5 year old mare that was ready to season as a barrel horse. A couple months later I found her yearling colt for sale. The girl who she bought the mare from didn't know she had ever been bred. She had bought as a 4 yr old. She had bought her as a project horse. I don't believe it stunted her growth and the colt didn't look stunted or low quality.
I would be careful about feeding her and the stallion you choose, if you decide to breed her. I know with show heifers a lot of them have huge calves partly due to over feeding to keep them looking good for the show ring and also, not paying attention to birth weights on the bull.
We never had a problem because we didn't over feed in the last trimeste and we always bred to a bull with lower birth weights. Often those calves were show quality.
But of course, it may be different with horses. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
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Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | No way would I breed a 2 year old.. I would wait for her to be coming a 4 year old. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
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Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Why the hurry, I know you said shes not sound, but let her grow up some. |
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Expert
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| GLP - 2015-12-08 4:23 PM
My daughter bought a barely 5 year old mare that was ready to season as a barrel horse. A couple months later I found her yearling colt for sale. The girl who she bought the mare from didn't know she had ever been bred. She had bought as a 4 yr old. She had bought her as a project horse. I don't believe it stunted her growth and the colt didn't look stunted or low quality.
I would be careful about feeding her and the stallion you choose, if you decide to breed her. I know with show heifers a lot of them have huge calves partly due to over feeding to keep them looking good for the show ring and also, not paying attention to birth weights on the bull.
We never had a problem because we didn't over feed in the last trimeste and we always bred to a bull with lower birth weights. Often those calves were show quality.
But of course, it may be different with horses.
I did see a discussion where show cows were brought up. Where people want calves as early as possible and its kind of the same situation. |
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 Bulls Eye
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Location: Oklahoma | We have a mare that was bred as a 2 year old and have seen the foal that is now 3. Gorgeous and exceptional. I want ups not hesitate to breed a 2 year old if they were mature enough |
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Elite Veteran
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| I personally would not, but I foaled out a 3yo mare this year and she had a big beautiful filly with no complications at all. It didn't mellow her out any, though. She was a big, hot tempered DTF filly, and she was just as hot and hard to handle after she foaled. That baby was a cutie though, by a FG son. |
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 Saint Stacey
| Just because they physically CAN be bred at 2 doesn't mean they SHOULD.
Just like a 13 year old girl CAN have a child doesn't mean she should either.
I would wait until 3. At 2 they are still very immature and still growing. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | SKM - 2015-12-08 8:00 PM
Just because they physically CAN be bred at 2 doesn't mean they SHOULD.
Just like a 13 year old girl CAN have a child doesn't mean she should either.
I would wait until 3. At 2 they are still very immature and still growing.
Agreed |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
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Location: That part of Texas | RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 3:01 PM at 24-26 mos (2yo) to foal at 33-35 mos (3yo) due to being permanently broodmare sound only ETA: I am just mulling it around. Not planning anything. She is for sure not going to be able to handle any type of performance. We will be lucky if she can be rode at all. This girl has tried to cut off each leg at least once in the last year in three different living arrangements/ fence settings. Still haven't found what she's doing it on lol.
I would wait. If she can't handle a rider at 100-125 pounds for less than an hour, how is she going to handle carrying a baby at 75-100 pounds 24/7 until it's born? What if she can't handle that load -- what are you going to do then? I've had friends who have bred older mares after career-ending injuries to their hooves/legs and it's really rough on them in the last months of their pregnancy. I couldn't imagine doing that to a youngster who's trying to grow herself in addition to growing a healthy baby. I can understand wanting to recoup losses on an investment but I would treat her as still at the growing phase where she needs all of your support to reach her potential. I'd let her heal and grow some more before you count her out or ask for something her body is probably not ready for -- especially if she is still healing herself. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
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Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I think thats so wrong to breed such a young filly, give her time to get some growing finished, if shes bred at such a young age she will be giving that baby what she needs to finished growning on. |
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  Independent Cuss
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Location: Dearing, GA | Red Raider - 2015-12-08 8:21 PM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 3:01 PM at 24-26 mos (2yo) to foal at 33-35 mos (3yo) due to being permanently broodmare sound only ETA: I am just mulling it around. Not planning anything. She is for sure not going to be able to handle any type of performance. We will be lucky if she can be rode at all. This girl has tried to cut off each leg at least once in the last year in three different living arrangements/ fence settings. Still haven't found what she's doing it on lol. I would wait. If she can't handle a rider at 100-125 pounds for less than an hour, how is she going to handle carrying a baby at 75-100 pounds 24/7 until it's born? What if she can't handle that load -- what are you going to do then? I've had friends who have bred older mares after career-ending injuries to their hooves/legs and it's really rough on them in the last months of their pregnancy. I couldn't imagine doing that to a youngster who's trying to grow herself in addition to growing a healthy baby. I can understand wanting to recoup losses on an investment but I would treat her as still at the growing phase where she needs all of your support to reach her potential. I'd let her heal and grow some more before you count her out or ask for something her body is probably not ready for -- especially if she is still healing herself.
I agree 100%. She needs to be sound enough to carry a foal.
IMO 2 is way too young to breed, injured or not. |
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| I bred a 3 conming 4 in the spring mare this year who has a permanent injury and shes already 15.3 so I don't see a problem with it. shes a DTF and the stud is a smaller son of Dr Nick Bar so hopefully it comes out fine! |
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| So at 25 mos old, a horse is 90% of its adult size and a foal will not pull from a mare until around month 9 making that filly 34 months old (2 months shy of 3 years old, being 98% of her adult size). I realize some are humanizing it and some are putting emotion into it, but we don't breed humans for performance or business. I am not hugely worried about making my money back on her, I won't lol. Not after her hairy incidents the past year. I am just mulling the thought around. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the filly will not be dealing with the strain of a foal until 3 years of age. I would absolutely not breed anything, young or old, if it could not comfortably carry a foal. |
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Saint Stacey
| RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 10:03 PM
So at 25 mos old, a horse is 90% of its adult size and a foal will not pull from a mare until around month 9 making that filly 34 months old (2 months shy of 3 years old, being 98% of her adult size). I realize some are humanizing it and some are putting emotion into it, but we don't breed humans for performance or business. I am not hugely worried about making my money back on her, I won't lol. Not after her hairy incidents the past year. I am just mulling the thought around. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the filly will not be dealing with the strain of a foal until 3 years of age. I would absolutely not breed anything, young or old, if it could not comfortably carry a foal.
You asked for opinions. You got opinions. I see you've already made up your mind that it's okay to breed her so shy did you even ask? Especially when all you are doing is arguing your case that you feel it's fine when someone says they don't agree? |
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Expert
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| SKM - 2015-12-09 5:13 AM
RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 10:03 PM
So at 25 mos old, a horse is 90% of its adult size and a foal will not pull from a mare until around month 9 making that filly 34 months old (2 months shy of 3 years old, being 98% of her adult size). I realize some are humanizing it and some are putting emotion into it, but we don't breed humans for performance or business. I am not hugely worried about making my money back on her, I won't lol. Not after her hairy incidents the past year. I am just mulling the thought around. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the filly will not be dealing with the strain of a foal until 3 years of age. I would absolutely not breed anything, young or old, if it could not comfortably carry a foal.
You asked for opinions. You got opinions. I see you've already made up your mind that it's okay to breed her so shy did you even ask? Especially when all you are doing is arguing your case that you feel it's fine when someone says they don't agree?
That's the joy of discussion :) if everyone agreed on everything the world would be boring. I have my mind made up that medically it's not that big of deal. I haven't seen anything yet to prove that wrong. That's why I asked for OPs. To see if maybe there was something out there that would make me feel otherwise. Now, I haven't made my mind up as to wether I will actually breed her or not but there is nothing wrong with discussing. Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean the discussion is over. That's what this thing is here for, right? |
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | SKM - 2015-12-09 5:13 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 10:03 PM So at 25 mos old, a horse is 90% of its adult size and a foal will not pull from a mare until around month 9 making that filly 34 months old (2 months shy of 3 years old, being 98% of her adult size). I realize some are humanizing it and some are putting emotion into it, but we don't breed humans for performance or business. I am not hugely worried about making my money back on her, I won't lol. Not after her hairy incidents the past year. I am just mulling the thought around. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the filly will not be dealing with the strain of a foal until 3 years of age. I would absolutely not breed anything, young or old, if it could not comfortably carry a foal. You asked for opinions. You got opinions. I see you've already made up your mind that it's okay to breed her so shy did you even ask? Especially when all you are doing is arguing your case that you feel it's fine when someone says they don't agree?
just my thinking SKM |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
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Location: OH | I wait till three. |
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Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
Location: That part of Texas | SKM - 2015-12-09 5:13 AM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 10:03 PM So at 25 mos old, a horse is 90% of its adult size and a foal will not pull from a mare until around month 9 making that filly 34 months old (2 months shy of 3 years old, being 98% of her adult size). I realize some are humanizing it and some are putting emotion into it, but we don't breed humans for performance or business. I am not hugely worried about making my money back on her, I won't lol. Not after her hairy incidents the past year. I am just mulling the thought around. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the filly will not be dealing with the strain of a foal until 3 years of age. I would absolutely not breed anything, young or old, if it could not comfortably carry a foal. You asked for opinions. You got opinions. I see you've already made up your mind that it's okay to breed her so shy did you even ask? Especially when all you are doing is arguing your case that you feel it's fine when someone says they don't agree?
+1
If you are breeding for resell, I think it's going to hurt you. If it's not about the money, why do it now instead of later? If I was looking at buying a baby from someone who bred so early for one other reason than that's all the mare is good for, I'd probably pass to buy from someone who bred them at a later date.
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | SKM - 2015-12-09 6:13 AM
RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-08 10:03 PM
So at 25 mos old, a horse is 90% of its adult size and a foal will not pull from a mare until around month 9 making that filly 34 months old (2 months shy of 3 years old, being 98% of her adult size). I realize some are humanizing it and some are putting emotion into it, but we don't breed humans for performance or business. I am not hugely worried about making my money back on her, I won't lol. Not after her hairy incidents the past year. I am just mulling the thought around. I guess what I am trying to say here is that the filly will not be dealing with the strain of a foal until 3 years of age. I would absolutely not breed anything, young or old, if it could not comfortably carry a foal.
You asked for opinions. You got opinions. I see you've already made up your mind that it's okay to breed her so shy did you even ask? Especially when all you are doing is arguing your case that you feel it's fine when someone says they don't agree?
Agree! |
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| In my opinion, why breed an unproven mare....but that's just me. Anywhoo, I have to agree with the others in that I would wait until she is more mature before breeding. |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| LAC - 2015-12-09 1:32 PM In my opinion, why breed an unproven mare....but that's just me. Anywhoo, I have to agree with the others in that I would wait until she is more mature before breeding.
"Proven" is very subjective. I would guess that more than 75% of all breedings in this industry are unproven mares. |
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| Yes, I agree. Everyone has their own "standards" as to proven and there are a lot of unknowns who have produced some big money earners, however I'm just not a fan of breeding just to breed. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | oija - 2015-12-08 4:17 PM
Article also specifically recommends waiting to breed, not foal, between 3 to 10. I would think yearlings are the most problematic to breed but you would still have some issues with foaling at 3, just not as many. And article also still intimates that foal size is affected. Have you read the Ranger piece on skeletal maturity in horses. It's more for riding but something to consider for this too. There's still a whole lot of joint fusing and growing going on in three year olds. It's a really high stress growth time and a time when they are often experiencing a lot of 'growing pains'. I'd hate to put the additional stress of a foal on an animal struggling with that. Just because a 15 year old girl can have a baby doesn't mean she should. It's comparable. I'd say breeding a yearling is more like a 13-14 year old.
Took the thoughts right out of my head. |
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 Veteran
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Location: Oklahoma | Wait till shes 4!!! Big difference in a 2 , 3 or 4yr old & thats when any filly is considered a Mare... Even if shes never had a foal... Just because theyre able doesnt make it right... An old timer thats prolly forgot more than I know told me IF You breed 1 at 3 skip the next yr Otherwise just wait till shes 4!!! And that man has the best lookin high percentage Hancock horses around my area... Love a Blue Roan :) |
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breeding a mare (filly) young