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 Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
  
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Anyone? And if so, why not? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3104
Location: Arkansas | Because we don't have an extra $800 plus in our budget every month. | |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | gypsy1997 - 2015-12-16 8:58 AM
Because we don't have an extra $800 plus in our budget every month.
Thank you for responding.
I ask, because we're in the same boat. I just looked into it again and am just horrified at the costs for the worst possible plan. Affordable care act... Pfft. | |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
 
Location: North Dakota | As anyone with a brain knew from the beginning, the "Affordable Care Act" is BULLSH!T. I work in a clinic and there are still plenty of people without insurance and I have not come across a single person that has actually been able to sign up and get approved for obamacare. The maybe 6 people that have mentioned it said they were waiting indefinitely for approval or couldn't even get the website to work in the first place.
Let us not forget that the intent of obamacare was NEVER to actually help people. The intent was to drive the price of insurance up so much that people would be tricked into supporting a single payer system. That may be fine for some countries but I can list many first-hand accounts of dealing with socialized medicine in Canada, Germany, and France that are absolutely terrifying. Extremely poor service that really won't save you any money. It will just be ripped from your paycheck in the form of taxes rather than you choosing a plan that works for you and paying that way. Luckily for me, my mom has great insurance and I'm still young enough for a couple years at least to be under it. She almost lost it when the obamacare rules were set in place though. She now has to work more hours to qualify and the cost went up. I'm terrified for what the cost will be once I have to go get my own.
Edited by cavyrunsbarrels 2015-12-16 1:09 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
Location: Windoming | Yep, I'm paying $800 a month for the two of us, for less coverage than we had before. No dental and no vision. We were paying $300 a month before, with dental and vision! My husband retired, so we lost that. We were supposed to be able to keep it after retirement, another lie. Through Obamacare, it was $1900 a month with $11,000 deductible! They are still calling me about it! I am getting it through my employer now. I see visions of a new truck every time I pay my insurance..........Looks like the 2001 will have to last forever. So far, so good! | |
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Expert
Posts: 3104
Location: Arkansas | ~BINGO~ - 2015-12-16 11:30 AM gypsy1997 - 2015-12-16 8:58 AM Because we don't have an extra $800 plus in our budget every month. Thank you for responding. I ask, because we're in the same boat. I just looked into it again and am just horrified at the costs for the worst possible plan. Affordable care act... Pfft.
To be honest, I haven't even checked into it this year. We don't go to the doctor anyway and I can't justify those monthly costs with an $11K deductible just to say we are covered. We did not have to pay the penalty last year because by IRS standards "it was not affordable", according to our accountant. I want coverage but I just can't pay those premiums without getting rid of a couple of vehicles. Or the house and a vehicle. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 396
| If an accident wouldn't cause us to loose our little rancho in bills, I would be on the quit bandwagon too. $700/month for the lowest BCBS plan available and I still paid almost everything out of pocket because it's a high deductible plan. We used to pay $189 for a similar plan with BCBS 5 years ago. Should have stayed grandfathered in on that plan if I could have known the future. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Most people that are paying for health insurance don't have health insurance...paying over $500.00 a month for one person with a $6,000.00 deductible is not health insurance...it's catastrophic medical insurance. This is nothing but a redistribution of wealth. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | I don't have any insurance.....we just can not manage another montly bill that would give us nothing in return. Besides, the premium is high plus with a $6,500 deductible we would be paying out of pocket for approx. $9,000 a year for just myself for medical care before insurance would pick any of it up. However, the govt. thinks we are rolling in $$$$ because of my hushand's retirement pay from 35 years of teaching school and his Social Security, HA! HA!
The ObamaCare is figured on the entire "household" income, not just the person needing the insurance. It is such a joke. Insurance would be great to have for a major injury or disease but right now I'm just gambling that I will not be put into that situation. I also do not think trying to safe my life is worth going into debt over either if it came to having to spend hundreds of thousands to do it.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | Nevertooold - 2015-12-16 12:09 PM Most people that are paying for health insurance don't have health insurance...paying over $500.00 a month for one person with a $6,000.00 deductible is not health insurance...it's catastrophic medical insurance. This is nothing but a redistribution of wealth.
This ^^^^^ You said exactly what I was trying to say. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | gypsy1997 - 2015-12-16 12:07 PM
~BINGO~ - 2015-12-16 11:30 AM gypsy1997 - 2015-12-16 8:58 AM Because we don't have an extra $800 plus in our budget every month. Thank you for responding. I ask, because we're in the same boat. I just looked into it again and am just horrified at the costs for the worst possible plan. Affordable care act... Pfft.
I was curious about the IRS penalty aspect. Was wondering if IRS enforced when you file your return. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Nevertooold - 2015-12-16 12:09 PM
Most people that are paying for health insurance don't have health insurance...paying over $500.00 a month for one person with a $6,000.00 deductible is not health insurance...it's catastrophic medical insurance. This is nothing but a redistribution of wealth.
They would be much better pocketing that $500/month and saving it for any future medical issues.  | |
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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I just dropped ours. Our cost went up again... $1018/month for our family of five, with a $7,500 deductible.
I tried to find a non-ACA compliant plan and just pay the penalty, but couldn't find them offered anywhere. Instead, I am in the process of enrolling with Medi-Share, a Christian cost-sharing program. They have pretty strict guidelines and will not cover anything pre-existing, but I feel like it's our only option for now. | |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Me. I had emergency surgery in July and incurred $35,000 in costs. Called to cut a deal with the providers, came out with $18,000 in costs.
Way way way less than two years of insurance+deductible would cost me.
This is ridiculous and a **** shame. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1718
Location: Southeast Louisiana | Silly Filly - 2015-12-16 11:48 AM
Yep, I'm paying $800 a month for the two of us, for less coverage than we had before. No dental and no vision. We were paying $300 a month before, with dental and vision! My husband retired, so we lost that. We were supposed to be able to keep it after retirement, another lie. Through Obamacare, it was $1900 a month with $11,000 deductible! They are still calling me about it! I am getting it through my employer now. I see visions of a new truck every time I pay my insurance..........Looks like the 2001 will have to last forever. So far, so good!
Well, since you are able to pay, you have to carry the ones on the lower end. That's how this crap works. Complete socialism bull****. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
| I too am curious about the penalties. My husband and I are DINK's so on paper, we make "a lot". Last year, my dad got sick in April, diagnosed with terminal cancer in June and died in October. My husband and I supported my parents almost all year because of my dad's illness and inability to work before he started collecting disability (only received 2 months, $700 total). We tried to claim my mom as a dependent on our taxes to reduce our tax liability (just like if we had a child) but because she didn't have health insurance paying her "penalty" for not having insurance would have cost more than it saved us in taxes, so we just filed as the two of us, and paid our taxes. Worked out to about $1000 "fine" for her not having insurance. But, she made no money all year, because she hasn't worked in 30 years, and she didn't pay the fine. | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7550
Location: In The Land of Cotton | It is cheaper to pay the fine. It is 2.5% of the total household income for the year 2015. If you made $100K total - it would be $2,500.
Edited by 3canstorun 2015-12-16 12:48 PM
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 How freakish is that?
Posts: 3927
Location: Oregon | OutlawsLastDance - 2015-12-16 10:41 AM I too am curious about the penalties. My husband and I are DINK's so on paper, we make "a lot". Last year, my dad got sick in April, diagnosed with terminal cancer in June and died in October. My husband and I supported my parents almost all year because of my dad's illness and inability to work before he started collecting disability (only received 2 months, $700 total). We tried to claim my mom as a dependent on our taxes to reduce our tax liability (just like if we had a child) but because she didn't have health insurance paying her "penalty" for not having insurance would have cost more than it saved us in taxes, so we just filed as the two of us, and paid our taxes. Worked out to about $1000 "fine" for her not having insurance. But, she made no money all year, because she hasn't worked in 30 years, and she didn't pay the fine.
What state do you live in? | |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | we are just going to suck it up and pay the fine again. Although I believe it's supposed to about triple what we were fined last year. We should be around the $1,800 mark this year. But shoot, that's only a bit over double what the monthly cost of our insurance would be per month.... With a $7,000 deductible. We haven't been to the doctor in several years. We are young, healthy adults. So, as others have said, unless something catastrophic happens, I couldn't fathom paying the insurance. I'm just glad to hear that I'm not the only one. However I am surprised at how many there actually are without insurance. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 596
Location: Somewhere in the middle of nowhere | My SO doesn't have insurance and had his appendix rupture on him. In the hospital, the financial advisor told him he didn't qualify for any aid due to the fact that he owns 2 pickups and his house. The bills total about $100,000.....he is just going to have to pay what he can and he will get it paid off. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1207
| I bet you would be surprised as to really how many do not have insurance. The Government puts out untrue stats on this stuff, just like on the economy getting better. I qualified for Medicare this year. Don't know if that's good or bad but I still had to get a supplemental policy along with it. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I've been shopping for insurance and it's ridiculous. Comparable coverage to what we have now, is going to be $921/month for the 4 of us. That's about a 30% increase over the large group HMO plan we're on, and the only advantage is more flexibility with providers and facilities. Our mortgage is only a few dollars more. There were some plans available that sounded pretty good to me for $300-400/month, but they don't qualify for the ACA, so we'd be buying insurance AND paying the fine.
Having had a $210,000 hospital bill from a non-preventable illness and a couple of other big ones from injuries, as well as an extremely strong family history of breast cancer, I'm scared to go without. | |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
Location: Kansas | My deductible went from $1000 a year to $6400 a year. Thanks Obama for another one of your crank schemes that goes right along with beating ISIS to death with solar panels.
Edited by Frodo 2015-12-16 1:31 PM
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | We are a family of 6 and for health and dental insurance we pay $1240 a month with a 16000 deductible! We thought about dropping it all together but this year our daughters appendix ruptured and the hospital charged our insurance $135,000.00 to remove it and keep her in the hospital for 5 days!! I am afraid someone will get really sick and a six figure medical bill would destroy us!!!!!!!!!! Obama care inflated the price of insurance to the point that it is legal robbery of the people who pay! It would be cheaper and we would have a better life if we all stopped working and got on welfare and WIC!!!! Lol our insurance was $385 a month before Obama care it is almost $1000 more a month now!! | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: In the wrong place at the wrong time | I don't have health insurance. I can't afford it. We are barely making ends meet. My husband lost his business and can't find a job.
At 52 it's really scary not to have it but nothing we can do about it. | |
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How freakish is that?
Posts: 3927
Location: Oregon | Cisco6340 - 2015-12-16 3:36 PM I don't have health insurance. I can't afford it. We are barely making ends meet. My husband lost his business and can't find a job. At 52 it's really scary not to have it but nothing we can do about it. What state do you live in? Really for low income people in the right states you can get cheap insurance. For everyone else it totally sucks.
And the healthcare.gov website works fine. I've done the sign up for several people and even though it's kind of complicated it works. Whoever said it didn't work obviously never tried it. You can PM me if you need help.
Edited by crapshooter 2015-12-16 6:53 PM
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | Have insurance through employment. Luckily mine is primarily covered by employer. After two friends had serious illiness/infections - $700K + each in hospital bills; one had insurance, and her final tally out of pocket was $30K, the other, partially covered - her out of pocket over $100K... Insurance is on my must have list. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 150
| We went with Christian Healthcare Ministries, they do cover pre-existing to an extent if you join at top level. Wonderful ppl. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Sandok - 2015-12-16 1:16 PM I bet you would be surprised as to really how many do not have insurance. The Government puts out untrue stats on this stuff, just like on the economy getting better. I qualified for Medicare this year. Don't know if that's good or bad but I still had to get a supplemental policy along with it.
Our government has been pushing for a one payer deal for everyone and I really believe Obamacare was set up to fail to force everyone on the one payer system.
My husband has been on Medicare for 4 years and hasn't had any problems with it at all and I went on it last January. For Medicare, a supplement and drug plan it costs us a little over $600.00 a month. I have to say it does beat what I was paying for catastrophic insurance. I can now afford to go to the doctor.
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | cowpatty - 2015-12-16 7:00 PM We went with Christian Healthcare Ministries, they do cover pre-existing to an extent if you join at top level. Wonderful ppl.
I thought all policies had to cover pre-existing conditions now and that's part of the reason why it now costs more. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
| crapshooter - 2015-12-16 1:53 PM
OutlawsLastDance - 2015-12-16 10:41 AM I too am curious about the penalties. My husband and I are DINK's so on paper, we make "a lot". Last year, my dad got sick in April, diagnosed with terminal cancer in June and died in October. My husband and I supported my parents almost all year because of my dad's illness and inability to work before he started collecting disability (only received 2 months, $700 total). We tried to claim my mom as a dependent on our taxes to reduce our tax liability (just like if we had a child) but because she didn't have health insurance paying her "penalty" for not having insurance would have cost more than it saved us in taxes, so we just filed as the two of us, and paid our taxes. Worked out to about $1000 "fine" for her not having insurance. But, she made no money all year, because she hasn't worked in 30 years, and she didn't pay the fine.
What state do you live in?
I live in NC | |
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How freakish is that?
Posts: 3927
Location: Oregon | OutlawsLastDance - 2015-12-16 6:05 PM crapshooter - 2015-12-16 1:53 PM OutlawsLastDance - 2015-12-16 10:41 AM I too am curious about the penalties. My husband and I are DINK's so on paper, we make "a lot". Last year, my dad got sick in April, diagnosed with terminal cancer in June and died in October. My husband and I supported my parents almost all year because of my dad's illness and inability to work before he started collecting disability (only received 2 months, $700 total). We tried to claim my mom as a dependent on our taxes to reduce our tax liability (just like if we had a child) but because she didn't have health insurance paying her "penalty" for not having insurance would have cost more than it saved us in taxes, so we just filed as the two of us, and paid our taxes. Worked out to about $1000 "fine" for her not having insurance. But, she made no money all year, because she hasn't worked in 30 years, and she didn't pay the fine. What state do you live in? I live in NC
Edited by crapshooter 2015-12-16 8:23 PM
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | Nevertooold - 2015-12-15 1:09 PM
Most people that are paying for health insurance don't have health insurance...paying over $500.00 a month for one person with a $6,000.00 deductible is not health insurance...it's catastrophic medical insurance. This is nothing but a redistribution of wealth.
Exactly........aka transformation of America. I want to throw up every time I think of this BS affordable healthcare. | |
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Regular
Posts: 80
Location: Oregon | Did you recently use it and sign up? We had to go to an insurance agent on monday and do it there. They could get us in the system to beat the Dec 15th deadline for a January 1 start date, but the site was not working. They then called us back and said we have to go back in to the office Monday the 28th to complete part of the process. There was a message on the screen when we submitted the application that says "there may be a delay in submission today". It is not a well run system in my opinion. | |
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 Sweet Tea
Posts: 3496
Location: Home of the World Famous "Silver Bullet" | Our family has no Ins. Can't afford it. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I still have the catastrophic plan that I had before. But now it covers less and medical costs have gone WAY up. I cracked a wrist and went to the ER. Expected to pay about $1000 to cover it, but AFTER the insurance company's negotiated rate it was $3600-3800! It was like$1600 just for the doctor (which does not include facilities or cost of medical supplies, x rays, nurses, etc.) All that he did was look at my x ray, tell the nurse to write a script for pain meds (which I really didn't need), and instructed HER to put on a temporary cast. Oh yes and he charged $600 to slap a little super glue on the abrasion.
It took 6 months for me to get a bill and I started paying them $200 a month ( I was/am piffed off and am not in a hurry). 3 or 4 months of payments and they sent me a letter threatening to turn my account over to collections!! I had originally planned on paying $50 a month. Boy, was I hot! I called them up and told them that they should be ashamed for what they charged. The Orthopedist they sent me to only charged my $500 to do every thing they did!!! She then offered to set me on a 3 , 6 or 9 month payoff plan. I only owed 750 at the time???? Was my $200 not enough????? I SHOULD have gone for the 9 month plan!! I blew up at her about harassing someone who was actually paying her bill.
Next time I will go to the chiro and get it x rayed and make a cast out of a brace and vet wrap!! And do as good a job as they did.
Since my deductible is $5000, it has all come out of pocket....and my rate goes up another $40 after the first of the year. GRRRRRRRR!!!
Affordable health care my Grandma's patootie!
Edited by rodeoveteran 2015-12-16 9:57 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 150
| Its actually not insurance but a healthcare cost sharing ministry. A whole different thing But great imo. You can look them up online | |
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How freakish is that?
Posts: 3927
Location: Oregon | Buckwheat - 2015-12-16 7:40 PM Did you recently use it and sign up? We had to go to an insurance agent on monday and do it there. They could get us in the system to beat the Dec 15th deadline for a January 1 start date, but the site was not working. They then called us back and said we have to go back in to the office Monday the 28th to complete that part of the process. There was a message on the screen when we submitted the application that says "there may be a delay in submission today". It is not a well run system in my opinion. A couple of weeks ago. Probably got overloaded close to the 15th. Definitely not a great system.
Edited by crapshooter 2015-12-16 10:50 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 927
Location: Iowa | We have to have it because we own land. I chose my employment based on insurance coverage. I don't think I could sleep at night without it. I wouldn't feel right going into a medical situation having to make payments to get it paid off and still own horses trucks and trailers. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | So glad to have insurance through my employer. I work for the state and they pay mine. When I talk to people I feel like one of the few who has a reasonable deductible at 1500. | |
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 Ms. Marine
Posts: 4627
Location: Texas | My parents don't. Most people I know don't. It isn't affordable. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 629
| My parents went through the website in 2013 to determine what their subsidy would be, and at that time, their premium would be $500/month. My parents have never made a whole bunch of money. One income, my dad was self-employed in the construction industry. They couldn't afford a $300 car payment, let alone $500 in health insurance. This crap is far from affordable.
I have had insurance through my employers since the requirement went into effect. At my previous job though, I carried myself and my husband with a $2700 deductible for $532/month. Most of that was hubby, my employer paid about 75% of my premium. Early 2015 that employer went to offering only catastrophic plans. $5500/month deductible and the premium went up. It cost me $90/month for myself, and I dropped my hubby, and went directly to BCBS for hubby for $281/month, $3000 deductible.
In July I started a new job with the state, and most of my plan is covered. I pay $14/month. I have a $700 deductible. Hubby's employer bit the bullet for 2016 and is finally offering insurance. He went with the cheaper of the two. $140/month for a $5000 deductible with HSA plan. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 291
| I am covered through my job. My husband is self-employed. This is the second year he has been enrolled through the Market Place. The company that covered him last year decided not to offer anymore plans through the Market Place, so we had to enroll with a new company. Of course my husband waits until the last minute to do everything so we couldn't get online but called the 800 number instead. I think we were on the phone for approx an hour and done. Very simple. The policies I viewed for our state (SD) hadn't really gone up that much. For my husband to be insured through my work would be over $700 a month, we pay substantially less through the market place. It has been a good experience for us. | |
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11493
Location: 31 lengths farms | I have insurance thru my work but we just got bought out by another company and our insurance went up quite a bit for less coverage and a much bigger deductible also. The dental isn't even really an insurance plan, its a "savings plan" and we've been that route before also, no one in our town honors it. Guess who just chipped their front tooth? You'd think a company who just got bought out by another company that started out in the dental field would have a good dental program...it does if you are making 50K plus a year and can afford their mid and upper plans. The hourly employees not so much.
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 Half-Eaten Cookies
Posts: 2075
Location: Fort Worth / Springtown | I am involved in a co-op -- been around for over 30 years -- Christian Healthcare Ministries.
Very affordable compared to what we WERE paying and not using. I learned about it on here.
Easy to read about. Easy plan formats.
Not considered a "pre-existing condition" after 3 years.
Discount pharmacy.
I have not found out, yet, personally, about doctors that work with CHM -- they are considered a "self-pay".
There is a bio on their website of a mounted shooter that got hurt in horse accident and her experience with CHM.
About Obamacare -- I have heard of sooooo many friends,family , acquaintances that can't get treatment that they need.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | txbredbr - 2015-12-17 12:13 PM
I am involved in a co-op -- been around for over 30 years -- Christian Healthcare Ministries.
Very affordable compared to what we WERE paying and not using. I learned about it on here.
Easy to read about. Easy plan formats.
Not considered a "pre-existing condition" after 3 years.
Discount pharmacy.
I have not found out, yet, personally, about doctors that work with CHM -- they are considered a "self-pay".
There is a bio on their website of a mounted shooter that got hurt in horse accident and her experience with CHM.
About Obamacare -- I have heard of sooooo many friends,family , acquaintances that can't get treatment that they need.
I would definitely look at this. My understanding is that if you are enrolled with them, you cannot get fined. | |
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Assistant to the Braun..
Posts: 1249
Location: Texas | My granddaughter has lived with me for over a year. Because the paperwork for guardianship was not turned into my insurance in a timely manner I had to wait until open enrollment. We were penalized on taxes because we claimed her and did not have her insured. Next year will be the same because her insurance does not go into effect until Jan. Its a fail fail system and we will be penalized again if we claim her. Its honestly cheaper for us to not claim her if we will be fined. :( | |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| I have insurance, it costs me $100/mo. I am young and "single" with no kids. My fiancé does not have insurance. | |
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Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | Bear - 2015-12-17 12:54 PM txbredbr - 2015-12-17 12:13 PM I am involved in a co-op -- been around for over 30 years -- Christian Healthcare Ministries.
Very affordable compared to what we WERE paying and not using. I learned about it on here.
Easy to read about. Easy plan formats.
Not considered a "pre-existing condition" after 3 years.
Discount pharmacy.
I have not found out, yet, personally, about doctors that work with CHM -- they are considered a "self-pay".
There is a bio on their website of a mounted shooter that got hurt in horse accident and her experience with CHM.
About Obamacare -- I have heard of sooooo many friends,family , acquaintances that can't get treatment that they need.
I would definitely look at this. My understanding is that if you are enrolled with them, you cannot get fined.
Samaritan
Medi-Share
Christian Healthcare
Medical Cost Sharing
...and maybe a couple of others that I missed.
If you are enrolled, you are exempt from the fine. But, they are not "insurance" so do not have the same requirements (pre-existing conditions, etc) You must be a professed Christian and they have their own standards, such as no tobacco use, etc. I chose Medi-share because it is the most like traditional insurance. I mail my check to a credit union account and Medi-share disperses the funds as needed. With the other companies, you mail your check to a different family in need each month. Another major difference is that the others require you to apply for government assistance before their coverage will kick in (https://www.chministries.org/whattodo.aspx). (Although, my friend was recently hospitalized under the CHM plan and they did not ask her to apply. So, this rule may not be enforced, even though it is in the guidelines.) My coverage starts in January, but I kept a policy on myself due to the two year wait for pre-existing conditions. With a personal insurance policy, plus the family Medi-share policy, I will still be paying several hundred dollars less per month. I am so grateful for this option, as the ACA was financially crushing to our family.
Edited by just4fun 2015-12-17 1:33 PM
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 Having Smokin Bandits
Posts: 4572
Location: Woodstown, NJ | We don't have any insurance. We can't afford it. We couldn't get insurance in the past because of a pre-existing condition. When Obamacare first started, I thought, oh good, they can't reject us now! But they go by your income and one thing they forgot about is the bills people already have. I may look good on paper, but all my income is already spoken for. What do I do, stop paying my truck payment? Stop paying the Lowe's bill? The premium came out to $1400 a month for three of us with a sky high deductible and it didn't cover anything. I couldn't afford $400 extra a month, nevermind $1400. I was scared my husband would need another operation (he has vascular disease) but I just didn't have the money for the insurance unless I stopped paying the bills I already had. Or, honestly, got rid of my horses. I feel guilty about that, but except for one, I've had these horses for 16 years. I am not getting rid of them! Especially the ones who would be at risk because of unsoundness. I'd prostitute myself before I got rid of these horses! So I gambled. We'd been uninsured for years anyway due to the pre-existing condition. And wouldn't you know? We lost. My husband needed emergency surgery. I got a bill for $111,000 for two days in the hospital. Because we lost our income while he was laid up (we're self employed--he goes out, I do the office stuff), and had no savings, we applied for charity care. After months of begging and jumping through hoops, the hospital waived a large portion of their part of the bill. But I still owe many thousands to the surgeon, the ultrasound readers, the CAT scan people, the heart doctors who looked at him for five minutes, and the parking attendant. Only kidding about the parking attendant but since I keep getting surprise bills months later, who knows? That could be next. Anyway, now that we owe all this money, we REALLY can't afford to buy insurance and we're in a worse boat than we were in before. The stress from worry, ironically, is probably going to give me cancer. | |
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | I pay more a month for insurance than for my house mortgage!!
Insurance costs are legal robbery of EVERYONE!!! Now we all pay triple to pay for the degenerates that live on welfare in this country!! | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | angelica - 2015-12-17 8:29 PM
I pay more a month for insurance than for my house mortgage!!
Insurance costs are legal robbery of EVERYONE!!! Now we all pay triple to pay for the degenerates that live on welfare in this country!!
Aka wealth redistribution welcome to Obamas world | |
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Half-Eaten Cookies
Posts: 2075
Location: Fort Worth / Springtown | just4fun - 2015-12-17 1:11 PM Bear - 2015-12-17 12:54 PM txbredbr - 2015-12-17 12:13 PM I am involved in a co-op -- been around for over 30 years -- Christian Healthcare Ministries.
Very affordable compared to what we WERE paying and not using. I learned about it on here.
Easy to read about. Easy plan formats.
Not considered a "pre-existing condition" after 3 years.
Discount pharmacy.
I have not found out, yet, personally, about doctors that work with CHM -- they are considered a "self-pay".
There is a bio on their website of a mounted shooter that got hurt in horse accident and her experience with CHM.
About Obamacare -- I have heard of sooooo many friends,family , acquaintances that can't get treatment that they need.
I would definitely look at this. My understanding is that if you are enrolled with them, you cannot get fined. There are several Christian cost sharing ministries.
Samaritan
Medi-Share
Christian Healthcare
Medical Cost Sharing
...and maybe a couple of others that I missed.
If you are enrolled, you are exempt from the fine. But, they are not "insurance" so do not have the same requirements (pre-existing conditions, etc ) You must be a professed Christian and they have their own standards, such as no tobacco use, etc. I chose Medi-share because it is the most like traditional insurance. I mail my check to a credit union account and Medi-share disperses the funds as needed. With the other companies, you mail your check to a different family in need each month. Another major difference is that the others require you to apply for government assistance before their coverage will kick in (https://www.chministries.org/whattodo.aspx ). (Although, my friend was recently hospitalized under the CHM plan and they did not ask her to apply. So, this rule may not be enforced, even though it is in the guidelines. ) My coverage starts in January, but I kept a policy on myself due to the two year wait for pre-existing conditions. With a personal insurance policy, plus the family Medi-share policy, I will still be paying several hundred dollars less per month. I am so grateful for this option, as the ACA was financially crushing to our family.
Yes, as just4fun said, it is considered medical coverage and you are not fined. I remember, last year, them sending announcements to help w/ the form you fill out for your taxes.
ANOTHER good thing -_ they work a lot through asking for your bills to be discounted - they will even assist you in discount requests --- and the discounts you are given are applied to your deductible, first!
They also have assistance if you don't have enough coverage or no coverage you can appeal to CHM where members can contribute - and pray for you.
I really like the newsletters they send, and the breakdown of successes.
Also, CHM, is one where you send payment directly to them and they disperse to individual that needs it. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | I could never not have insurance. I"d be too scared to have a major catastrophy with a bill in the 6 figures. But I agree that something has to change.
My parents have been greatly affected by OC. The whole promise of "you can keep your current plan" was a bunch of bull. Their insurance company had to quit offering certain policies because they could not keep up with the OC requirements. So my parents got dropped. My dad has tons of pre-existing conditions due to have Celiac Disease (and many other problems associated with it) and so it's been a big struggle to find decent insurance that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. He will be able to get on Medicare in a few months, so my parents are really hoping that helps.
Before hubby and I were married, hubby had a very simple plan that was about $90 a month. Mostly just covered major medical things, but for a young healthy adult, that's fine. Can't get those plans anymore in our area. My younger brother was trying to find something but now those plans are more like $300 a month. He actually ended up staying as a dependant on my parent's plan because it makes so much more sense finanially, and in turn, saves my parents some money.
I know that this is part of the reason why insurance costs are rising (according to my insurance agent). Young adults are able to stay on their parents plan longer, and most of them do because it is cheaper. When you have less people buying insurance policies, guess what? The price goes up for everyone else.
I am fortunate to have a very good job (own my own optometry clinic) so we do have the clinic take care of our medical premiums. We have a VERY good plan but we pay about $700 a month for the two of us; and we are both young and healthy. Within the last two years, for the people we do provide insurance for, the premiums have gone up by $1,200 a year for the past 2 years since we got grandfathered into OC. So we're paying DOUBLE in premiums than what we used to pay before.
Yes, OC is a lot of the problem. But it's not ALL the problem. Our healthcare system is broken too, and that's coming from a healthcare provider. Something's got to give. This is just getting out of control.
ANd one thing that is constantly frustrating frustrating to me is that patients never seem to know what their insurance covers and then get mad when we send them a bill for something. I understand insurance is confusing, but don't get mad at the messenger. I didn't choose your plan. You did. It's your responsibility to know what it covers and what it does not.
It happens all the time. People think "I have insurance" means the same thing as "I won't owe you anything." And of course, that couldn't be farther from the truth. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | No doubt about it, health insurance and health care itself is ridiculously sky high. There's only one way to fix it, and still preserve quality health care......and ObamaCare is the opposite of what's needed.
All that aside, I think a lot of people say they can't afford health insurance, yet they own horses, sometimes several, and they own expensive trailers and get a new pickup every 3-4 years. I have a hard time feeling sorry for those folks. A person ought to at least have some sort of catastrophic health insurance, if they own horses, trailers, and pickups. It doesn't take much to have something happen overnight and end up with a $100,000 bill. If you can't afford it, and don't pay your bill, the hospital doesn't simply throw it out the window. Everyone pays for it through cost shifting. | |
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 "Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | Bear - 2015-12-19 9:09 AM
No doubt about it, health insurance and health care itself is ridiculously sky high. There's only one way to fix it, and still preserve quality health care......and ObamaCare is the opposite of what's needed.
All that aside, I think a lot of people say they can't afford health insurance, yet they own horses, sometimes several, and they own expensive trailers and get a new pickup every 3-4 years. I have a hard time feeling sorry for those folks. A person ought to at least have some sort of catastrophic health insurance, if they own horses, trailers, and pickups. It doesn't take much to have something happen overnight and end up with a $100,000 bill. If you can't afford it, and don't pay your bill, the hospital doesn't simply throw it out the window. Everyone pays for it through cost shifting.
I agree with you but part of the problem is that catastrophic coverage is ridiculously expensive now too. I am 42, husband almost 40 & a little girl. All healthy, never had insurance pay a bill for us except for when I had our baby. Coverage with an $11,000 individual deductible in Oklahoma carries a $1000 PER MONTH premium for the three of us. Plus $35 a month for REQUIRED dental insurance on my kid (even before she had TEETH!). I don't mind paying good money for a good policy. But now we are paying highway robbery prices for a crap policy. The insurance companies are saying that the costs are so high because people with preexisting conditions are buying policies only long enough to get treatment and then dropping them. Rather than a flood of young, healthy people getting policies and offsetting the sicker ones. Don't know if that's true but I'm sure paying the price for someone and I'm not sure how much longer we can sustain it. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Here's how great our current insurance is. Living in a rural area with a sparse population, doctors do not do immunizations. They refer everyone to the county health department. It's a practical arrangement due to the cost and perishability (is that a word? LOL) of vaccines. If you have insurance, the health dept bills them, and if not, the state pays.
So I took my daughter in for her 2nd MMR before school started, and a few weeks later got an EoB from our insurance denying coverage because the provider was out of network. The health dept is out of network? How is that possible? Insurance is supposed to cover 100% of immunizations, and yet here they are refusing to pay. So I call and the snotty witch with customer service tells me I need to switch docs. I try to explain that this is standard practice in our area--we would have to drive over an hour to find a Ped clinic that does immunizations in-house, and they won't do them for us because 1) none of their docs are our PCP and 2) my kid's vaccines were delayed due to health issues when she was little and they will only vax there on the CDC schedule. No delaying and no cherry picking. Doesn't matter, don't care, if I want immunizations covered, I will have to drive a couple of hours to find a clinic that will do it and it's not their problem. So the state paid for it, and while I realize we're fortunate in that, it makes me mad that we pay for insurance and then they find every loophole they can find to not pay for services promised. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 9:55 AM Bear - 2015-12-19 9:09 AM No doubt about it, health insurance and health care itself is ridiculously sky high. There's only one way to fix it, and still preserve quality health care......and ObamaCare is the opposite of what's needed. All that aside, I think a lot of people say they can't afford health insurance, yet they own horses, sometimes several, and they own expensive trailers and get a new pickup every 3-4 years. I have a hard time feeling sorry for those folks. A person ought to at least have some sort of catastrophic health insurance, if they own horses, trailers, and pickups. It doesn't take much to have something happen overnight and end up with a $100,000 bill. If you can't afford it, and don't pay your bill, the hospital doesn't simply throw it out the window. Everyone pays for it through cost shifting. I agree with you but part of the problem is that catastrophic coverage is ridiculously expensive now too. I am 42, husband almost 40 & a little girl. All healthy, never had insurance pay a bill for us except for when I had our baby. Coverage with an $11,000 individual deductible in Oklahoma carries a $1000 PER MONTH premium for the three of us. Plus $35 a month for REQUIRED dental insurance on my kid (even before she had TEETH! ). I don't mind paying good money for a good policy. But now we are paying highway robbery prices for a crap policy. The insurance companies are saying that the costs are so high because people with preexisting conditions are buying policies only long enough to get treatment and then dropping them. Rather than a flood of young, healthy people getting policies and offsetting the sicker ones. Don't know if that's true but I'm sure paying the price for someone and I'm not sure how much longer we can sustain it.
I looked at catastrophic plans too and it only saved $120/month for us over a plan with a $2500 (5000) deductible, $3500 (7000) out of pocket cap, and co-pays for dr visits. I don't understand that. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I know it's absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to convince me of that. It's also not a mystery why healthcare and health insurance is so ridiculously expensive. I'd recommend doing what we did. When I lived in Minnesota I paid $450/month for a $3K deductible, which is very sensible. After getting married and moving to Texas, I had to drop my policy and we had to get one in Texas. Carol went through the pool and it was a nightmare for her. This year we decided to go outside the ObamaCare crap and just shopped around. Carol is 58 and I'm 61, with chronic leukemia, and we found a plan that was extremely low deductible, for $900/ month for both of us. The reason it doesn't qualify under ObamaCare is because it doesn't cover maternity leave ( darn.....we want to have babies!), contraception, psych, or substance abuse. It also has an AD&D plan worth $100K, and discounted dental/vision plans as part of the package. Now to me that's good value. Carol just shopped around and found it. I say to hell with ObamaCare and just find something decent that protects you for the lowest price. A lot of people whine and say they can't find anything, but I suspect in many instances they really haven't rolled up their sleeves and actually looked. We have good insurance at a decent price, and they know I have leukemia. With ObamaCare we would have paid $1500/month for sh!t coverage and $15K deductible.
Dig around.
Edited by Bear 2015-12-19 10:51 AM
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"Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | Three 4 Luck - 2015-12-19 10:08 AM
whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 9:55 AM Bear - 2015-12-19 9:09 AM No doubt about it, health insurance and health care itself is ridiculously sky high. There's only one way to fix it, and still preserve quality health care......and ObamaCare is the opposite of what's needed. All that aside, I think a lot of people say they can't afford health insurance, yet they own horses, sometimes several, and they own expensive trailers and get a new pickup every 3-4 years. I have a hard time feeling sorry for those folks. A person ought to at least have some sort of catastrophic health insurance, if they own horses, trailers, and pickups. It doesn't take much to have something happen overnight and end up with a $100,000 bill. If you can't afford it, and don't pay your bill, the hospital doesn't simply throw it out the window. Everyone pays for it through cost shifting. I agree with you but part of the problem is that catastrophic coverage is ridiculously expensive now too. I am 42, husband almost 40 & a little girl. All healthy, never had insurance pay a bill for us except for when I had our baby. Coverage with an $11,000 individual deductible in Oklahoma carries a $1000 PER MONTH premium for the three of us. Plus $35 a month for REQUIRED dental insurance on my kid (even before she had TEETH! ). I don't mind paying good money for a good policy. But now we are paying highway robbery prices for a crap policy. The insurance companies are saying that the costs are so high because people with preexisting conditions are buying policies only long enough to get treatment and then dropping them. Rather than a flood of young, healthy people getting policies and offsetting the sicker ones. Don't know if that's true but I'm sure paying the price for someone and I'm not sure how much longer we can sustain it.
The lowest deductible we could even get (if we had money to BURN!) is a $3000. And..... We only have 2 companies to choose from, Blue Cross and United Healthcare. There aren't any other companies that even offer coverage in our county!!!! And I called Cigna, Aetna, Kempton, Community Choice, etc......nope, don't offer insurance in your county. We own our own business and I'm about to have to get a full time outside job just for the insurance. | |
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"Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | Bear - 2015-12-19 10:50 AM
I know it's absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to convince me of that. It's also not a mystery why healthcare and health insurance is so ridiculously expensive. I'd recommend doing what we did. When I lived in Minnesota I paid $450/month for a $3K deductible, which is very sensible. After getting married and moving to Texas, I had to drop my policy and we had to get one in Texas. Carol went through the pool and it was a nightmare for her. This year we decided to go outside the ObamaCare crap and just shopped around. Carol is 58 and I'm 61, with chronic leukemia, and we found a plan that was extremely low deductible, for $900/ month for both of us. The reason it doesn't qualify under ObamaCare is because it doesn't cover maternity leave ( darn.....we want to have babies!), contraception, psych, or substance abuse. It also has an AD&D plan worth $100K, and discounted dental/vision plans as part of the package. Now to me that's good value. Carol just shopped around and found it. I say to hell with ObamaCare and just find something decent that protects you for the lowest price. A lot of people whine and say they can't find anything, but I suspect in many instances they really haven't rolled up their sleeves and actually looked. We have good insurance at a decent price, and they know I have leukemia. With ObamaCare we would have paid $1500/month for sh!t coverage and $15K deductible.
Dig around.
That's part of our problem, we have TWO companies to choose from whether you go thru the exchange or not....Blue Cross and United Healthcare. My husband is a chiropractor and I run his office so I know the ins and outs of insurance. I have all the phone numbers known to man and called them all. All except those two said nope, don't cover your county. We are very backed in a corner around here. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 10:53 AM
Bear - 2015-12-19 10:50 AM
I know it's absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to convince me of that. It's also not a mystery why healthcare and health insurance is so ridiculously expensive. I'd recommend doing what we did. When I lived in Minnesota I paid $450/month for a $3K deductible, which is very sensible. After getting married and moving to Texas, I had to drop my policy and we had to get one in Texas. Carol went through the pool and it was a nightmare for her. This year we decided to go outside the ObamaCare crap and just shopped around. Carol is 58 and I'm 61, with chronic leukemia, and we found a plan that was extremely low deductible, for $900/ month for both of us. The reason it doesn't qualify under ObamaCare is because it doesn't cover maternity leave ( darn.....we want to have babies!), contraception, psych, or substance abuse. It also has an AD&D plan worth $100K, and discounted dental/vision plans as part of the package. Now to me that's good value. Carol just shopped around and found it. I say to hell with ObamaCare and just find something decent that protects you for the lowest price. A lot of people whine and say they can't find anything, but I suspect in many instances they really haven't rolled up their sleeves and actually looked. We have good insurance at a decent price, and they know I have leukemia. With ObamaCare we would have paid $1500/month for sh!t coverage and $15K deductible.
Dig around.
That's part of our problem, we have TWO companies to choose from whether you go thru the exchange or not....Blue Cross and United Healthcare. My husband is a chiropractor and I run his office so I know the ins and outs of insurance. I have all the phone numbers known to man and called them all. All except those two said nope, don't cover your county. We are very backed in a corner around here.
And that's one of the biggest problems with healthcare. There needs to be free and open competition across state lines. Where is the outcry? I'm not hearing it. It's just preposterous. | |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 411
Location: Smack in the middle of WA! | Right now I pay $600 a month for myself and my son, husband is covered by his employer. $1000 deductible and $4500 per year max out of pocket. Expensive? Very! However I can't imagine what would happen if I had a bad horse accident or my son wrecked his dirt bike! Or we got cancer or some thing else terrible. I just feel that it is a necessary expense. If I can afford my horses and barrel racing then I should be able to afford insurance. I hate paying it every month but would hate to lose everything I have due to a medical bill caused by a barrel racing accident  | |
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"Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | Bear - 2015-12-19 11:08 AM
whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 10:53 AM
Bear - 2015-12-19 10:50 AM
I know it's absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to convince me of that. It's also not a mystery why healthcare and health insurance is so ridiculously expensive. I'd recommend doing what we did. When I lived in Minnesota I paid $450/month for a $3K deductible, which is very sensible. After getting married and moving to Texas, I had to drop my policy and we had to get one in Texas. Carol went through the pool and it was a nightmare for her. This year we decided to go outside the ObamaCare crap and just shopped around. Carol is 58 and I'm 61, with chronic leukemia, and we found a plan that was extremely low deductible, for $900/ month for both of us. The reason it doesn't qualify under ObamaCare is because it doesn't cover maternity leave ( darn.....we want to have babies!), contraception, psych, or substance abuse. It also has an AD&D plan worth $100K, and discounted dental/vision plans as part of the package. Now to me that's good value. Carol just shopped around and found it. I say to hell with ObamaCare and just find something decent that protects you for the lowest price. A lot of people whine and say they can't find anything, but I suspect in many instances they really haven't rolled up their sleeves and actually looked. We have good insurance at a decent price, and they know I have leukemia. With ObamaCare we would have paid $1500/month for sh!t coverage and $15K deductible.
Dig around.
That's part of our problem, we have TWO companies to choose from whether you go thru the exchange or not....Blue Cross and United Healthcare. My husband is a chiropractor and I run his office so I know the ins and outs of insurance. I have all the phone numbers known to man and called them all. All except those two said nope, don't cover your county. We are very backed in a corner around here.
And that's one of the biggest problems with healthcare. There needs to be free and open competition across state lines. Where is the outcry? I'm not hearing it. It's just preposterous.
TOTALLY agree with you and my answer (like most things in life) is "follow the money" and there you will find the reason for the lack of outcry! Same reason why the insurance companies initially protested and fought Obamacare and then all of a sudden became is greatest champion. I won't even get started on the "tax" that is added onto Healthcare premiums now, how the insurance companies claim they are going broke paying for preventative, etc, etc, etc. It's a train wreck!!! | |
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"Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | hank520 - 2015-12-19 11:24 AM
Right now I pay $600 a month for myself and my son, husband is covered by his employer. $1000 deductible and $4500 per year max out of pocket. Expensive? Very! However I can't imagine what would happen if I had a bad horse accident or my son wrecked his dirt bike! Or we got cancer or some thing else terrible. I just feel that it is a necessary expense. If I can afford my horses and barrel racing then I should be able to afford insurance. I hate paying it every month but would hate to lose everything I have due to a medical bill caused by a barrel racing accident
I have the same opinion. We will continue to cut things to be able to afford it. We will not go without insurance. But we are apparently in an even worse position in that the lowest deductible we can even buy is $3000 & only have two companies to choose from (the second company's lowest deductible option is $11,000!!!) We couldn't afford it anyway but we aren't even offered a reasonable deductible & so we're not only forced to pay ridiculously high prices but it's for crap coverage. It's a double whammy for us around here! | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 11:32 AM hank520 - 2015-12-19 11:24 AM Right now I pay $600 a month for myself and my son, husband is covered by his employer. $1000 deductible and $4500 per year max out of pocket. Expensive? Very! However I can't imagine what would happen if I had a bad horse accident or my son wrecked his dirt bike! Or we got cancer or some thing else terrible. I just feel that it is a necessary expense. If I can afford my horses and barrel racing then I should be able to afford insurance. I hate paying it every month but would hate to lose everything I have due to a medical bill caused by a barrel racing accident I have the same opinion. We will continue to cut things to be able to afford it. We will not go without insurance. But we are apparently in an even worse position in that the lowest deductible we can even buy is $3000 & only have two companies to choose from (the second company's lowest deductible option is $11,000!!! ) We couldn't afford it anyway but we aren't even offered a reasonable deductible & so we're not only forced to pay ridiculously high prices but it's for crap coverage. It's a double whammy for us around here!
I didn't use the Obamacare Market Place either and went to the individual companies and they all pretty much cost the same and were all a rip off. Never thought I would say I'm glad to be old enough to be on Medicare. | |
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Hugs to You
Posts: 7550
Location: In The Land of Cotton | But the point of nobama care was to make it socialized so we didn't have a choice. In GA in our area south of ATL the only company is BC/BS. No other. Thus they charge what they want. No competition at all. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: In the wrong place at the wrong time | crapshooter - 2015-12-16 7:45 PM
Cisco6340 - 2015-12-16 3:36 PM I don't have health insurance. I can't afford it. We are barely making ends meet. My husband lost his business and can't find a job. At 52 it's really scary not to have it but nothing we can do about it. What state do you live in? Really for low income people in the right states you can get cheap insurance. For everyone else it totally sucks.
And the healthcare.gov website works fine. I've done the sign up for several people and even though it's kind of complicated it works. Whoever said it didn't work obviously never tried it. You can PM me if you need help.
Thank you but we are stuck in the middle.......I make too much to qualify and can't afford any more expenses than we have now.
We are in MD | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 974
Location: In the wrong place at the wrong time | Bear - 2015-12-19 10:09 AM
No doubt about it, health insurance and health care itself is ridiculously sky high. There's only one way to fix it, and still preserve quality health care......and ObamaCare is the opposite of what's needed.
All that aside, I think a lot of people say they can't afford health insurance, yet they own horses, sometimes several, and they own expensive trailers and get a new pickup every 3-4 years. I have a hard time feeling sorry for those folks. A person ought to at least have some sort of catastrophic health insurance, if they own horses, trailers, and pickups. It doesn't take much to have something happen overnight and end up with a $100,000 bill. If you can't afford it, and don't pay your bill, the hospital doesn't simply throw it out the window. Everyone pays for it through cost shifting.
I agree with you but this is my scenario...... I know you do not mention me or anyone specifically but this how I have horses, a truck and trailer but can't afford insurance;
Husband lost business and has health issues, truck is 15 years old and not worth much, trailer is older still.
Have 4 horses all but one in their 20's and crippled the other is a 2 year old that was in utero when everything went south.
We bought our home before the housing boom so our mortgage payment is less than most pay in rent and there would still be the issue of what to do with 3 old crippled horses?
Just posting this to show sometimes things are quite as simple as they seem. | |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Bear - 2015-12-19 11:08 AM whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 10:53 AM Bear - 2015-12-19 10:50 AM I know it's absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to convince me of that. It's also not a mystery why healthcare and health insurance is so ridiculously expensive. I'd recommend doing what we did. When I lived in Minnesota I paid $450/month for a $3K deductible, which is very sensible. After getting married and moving to Texas, I had to drop my policy and we had to get one in Texas. Carol went through the pool and it was a nightmare for her. This year we decided to go outside the ObamaCare crap and just shopped around. Carol is 58 and I'm 61, with chronic leukemia, and we found a plan that was extremely low deductible, for $900/ month for both of us. The reason it doesn't qualify under ObamaCare is because it doesn't cover maternity leave ( darn.....we want to have babies!), contraception, psych, or substance abuse. It also has an AD&D plan worth $100K, and discounted dental/vision plans as part of the package. Now to me that's good value. Carol just shopped around and found it. I say to hell with ObamaCare and just find something decent that protects you for the lowest price. A lot of people whine and say they can't find anything, but I suspect in many instances they really haven't rolled up their sleeves and actually looked. We have good insurance at a decent price, and they know I have leukemia. With ObamaCare we would have paid $1500/month for sh!t coverage and $15K deductible. Dig around. That's part of our problem, we have TWO companies to choose from whether you go thru the exchange or not....Blue Cross and United Healthcare. My husband is a chiropractor and I run his office so I know the ins and outs of insurance. I have all the phone numbers known to man and called them all. All except those two said nope, don't cover your county. We are very backed in a corner around here. And that's one of the biggest problems with healthcare. There needs to be free and open competition across state lines. Where is the outcry? I'm not hearing it. It's just preposterous.
Where did you look for your insurance? I was looking for a plan and my only options for my area was united heath care, security health, and blue cross blue shield. All I need is a catastophic plan. I was even just carrying temporary insurance for a while. I understand that is not covered under Obama care but at least I had something if I got hurt. I am willing to pay the fine because it is more affordable for me to carry an insurance that doesnt qualify for obama care and pay the fee versus paying for an obama care approved insurance each month. | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Cisco6340 - 2015-12-19 6:04 PM
Bear - 2015-12-19 10:09 AM
No doubt about it, health insurance and health care itself is ridiculously sky high. There's only one way to fix it, and still preserve quality health care......and ObamaCare is the opposite of what's needed.
All that aside, I think a lot of people say they can't afford health insurance, yet they own horses, sometimes several, and they own expensive trailers and get a new pickup every 3-4 years. I have a hard time feeling sorry for those folks. A person ought to at least have some sort of catastrophic health insurance, if they own horses, trailers, and pickups. It doesn't take much to have something happen overnight and end up with a $100,000 bill. If you can't afford it, and don't pay your bill, the hospital doesn't simply throw it out the window. Everyone pays for it through cost shifting.
I agree with you but this is my scenario...... I know you do not mention me or anyone specifically but this how I have horses, a truck and trailer but can't afford insurance;
Husband lost business and has health issues, truck is 15 years old and not worth much, trailer is older still.
Have 4 horses all but one in their 20's and crippled the other is a 2 year old that was in utero when everything went south.
We bought our home before the housing boom so our mortgage payment is less than most pay in rent and there would still be the issue of what to do with 3 old crippled horses?
Just posting this to show sometimes things are quite as simple as they seem.
What's really maddening is the number of people I know in our small town that are on disability (these are people that absolutely could find a job of some kind, even if it is sacking groceries or working at McDonald's) and use the ER as their PCP and owe nothing to anyone for healthcare because "they're covered." Then hardworking middle-class families scrimp and save and beg and borrow to get the "required" insurance and not be fined. It sets my teeth on edge.
I was in the ER one night due to issues with my amputation, and there was a whole family of Hispanics there. The parents could speak no English, so the roughly 14 year old daughter was the translator. (Had another 4 or so year old son and the mother was pregnant) When they started to leave, the receptionist told them that the address they had on file was no good and that they needed to update it and also make a payment before they left. The daughter said something in rapid fire Spanish, the parents looked at the receptionist. . . . . And walked out. I have no answers but dear Lord what has happened to this country and what do we do????
Edited by Chandler's Mom 2015-12-19 8:02 PM
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"Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | WetSaddleBlankets - 2015-12-19 6:12 PM Bear - 2015-12-19 11:08 AM whiplashranch - 2015-12-19 10:53 AM Bear - 2015-12-19 10:50 AM I know it's absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to convince me of that. It's also not a mystery why healthcare and health insurance is so ridiculously expensive. I'd recommend doing what we did. When I lived in Minnesota I paid $450/month for a $3K deductible, which is very sensible. After getting married and moving to Texas, I had to drop my policy and we had to get one in Texas. Carol went through the pool and it was a nightmare for her. This year we decided to go outside the ObamaCare crap and just shopped around. Carol is 58 and I'm 61, with chronic leukemia, and we found a plan that was extremely low deductible, for $900/ month for both of us. The reason it doesn't qualify under ObamaCare is because it doesn't cover maternity leave ( darn.....we want to have babies!), contraception, psych, or substance abuse. It also has an AD&D plan worth $100K, and discounted dental/vision plans as part of the package. Now to me that's good value. Carol just shopped around and found it. I say to hell with ObamaCare and just find something decent that protects you for the lowest price. A lot of people whine and say they can't find anything, but I suspect in many instances they really haven't rolled up their sleeves and actually looked. We have good insurance at a decent price, and they know I have leukemia. With ObamaCare we would have paid $1500/month for sh!t coverage and $15K deductible. Dig around. That's part of our problem, we have TWO companies to choose from whether you go thru the exchange or not....Blue Cross and United Healthcare. My husband is a chiropractor and I run his office so I know the ins and outs of insurance. I have all the phone numbers known to man and called them all. All except those two said nope, don't cover your county. We are very backed in a corner around here. And that's one of the biggest problems with healthcare. There needs to be free and open competition across state lines. Where is the outcry? I'm not hearing it. It's just preposterous.
Edited by whiplashranch 2015-12-19 9:29 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1062
Location: Probably On the Road to the Next Barrel Race! | I live in a town of about 125,000. We mave 2 major hospital clinic/systems. One just sent us a letter that they will NOT accept Obamacare patients. That's full coverage of half of my town!!!!! How can this be? I was thinking of going for it during open enrollment, but not now!! Right now I have catastrophic coverage thru a Christian-based company. This sucks | |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| As to the ridiculous cost of health care itself...... That $600 I was charged to put a dollar's worth of super glue on (and had it been on my knee I would have just put some Neosporin on and called it good)? I just realized that that s only what the Emergency doctor's service charged me. The hospital itself also charged me another $517.50 FOR THE SAME TREATMENT!!!!
Over $1100 of the over $3500 in bills for a "broken" (cracked) arm was to put super glue on an abrasion??!! Really??!!! | |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | Three 4 Luck - 2015-12-19 10:02 AM Here's how great our current insurance is. Living in a rural area with a sparse population, doctors do not do immunizations. They refer everyone to the county health department. It's a practical arrangement due to the cost and perishability (is that a word? LOL) of vaccines. If you have insurance, the health dept bills them, and if not, the state pays.
So I took my daughter in for her 2nd MMR before school started, and a few weeks later got an EoB from our insurance denying coverage because the provider was out of network. The health dept is out of network? How is that possible? Insurance is supposed to cover 100% of immunizations, and yet here they are refusing to pay. So I call and the snotty witch with customer service tells me I need to switch docs. I try to explain that this is standard practice in our area--we would have to drive over an hour to find a Ped clinic that does immunizations in-house, and they won't do them for us because 1) none of their docs are our PCP and 2) my kid's vaccines were delayed due to health issues when she was little and they will only vax there on the CDC schedule. No delaying and no cherry picking. Doesn't matter, don't care, if I want immunizations covered, I will have to drive a couple of hours to find a clinic that will do it and it's not their problem. So the state paid for it, and while I realize we're fortunate in that, it makes me mad that we pay for insurance and then they find every loophole they can find to not pay for services promised.
While I agree the situation sucks and doesn't make any sense, this is the part where I said most people don't actually educate themselves on the policy you choose.
Its not not your insurances fault you chose an out-of-network doctor. They have lists with your plan on where you can and cannot go. You are fully able to check ahead of time. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | r_beau - 2015-12-20 8:49 PM Three 4 Luck - 2015-12-19 10:02 AM Here's how great our current insurance is. Living in a rural area with a sparse population, doctors do not do immunizations. They refer everyone to the county health department. It's a practical arrangement due to the cost and perishability (is that a word? LOL) of vaccines. If you have insurance, the health dept bills them, and if not, the state pays.
So I took my daughter in for her 2nd MMR before school started, and a few weeks later got an EoB from our insurance denying coverage because the provider was out of network. The health dept is out of network? How is that possible? Insurance is supposed to cover 100% of immunizations, and yet here they are refusing to pay. So I call and the snotty witch with customer service tells me I need to switch docs. I try to explain that this is standard practice in our area--we would have to drive over an hour to find a Ped clinic that does immunizations in-house, and they won't do them for us because 1) none of their docs are our PCP and 2) my kid's vaccines were delayed due to health issues when she was little and they will only vax there on the CDC schedule. No delaying and no cherry picking. Doesn't matter, don't care, if I want immunizations covered, I will have to drive a couple of hours to find a clinic that will do it and it's not their problem. So the state paid for it, and while I realize we're fortunate in that, it makes me mad that we pay for insurance and then they find every loophole they can find to not pay for services promised. While I agree the situation sucks and doesn't make any sense, this is the part where I said most people don't actually educate themselves on the policy you choose.
Its not not your insurances fault you chose an out-of-network doctor. They have lists with your plan on where you can and cannot go. You are fully able to check ahead of time.
I have seen people who went to the hospital that was on their insurance plan and got hit with one doctor or specialist being out of network. That is wrong, you don't get to choose the hospital doctor in most cases, they should be part of the hospital's network. It is all just a way to rip people off. I have also seen someone who was real carful for on operation, everyone was in network - then it turns out the 2nd anesthegist was out of network and cost a fortune. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | r_beau - 2015-12-20 7:49 PM Three 4 Luck - 2015-12-19 10:02 AM Here's how great our current insurance is. Living in a rural area with a sparse population, doctors do not do immunizations. They refer everyone to the county health department. It's a practical arrangement due to the cost and perishability (is that a word? LOL) of vaccines. If you have insurance, the health dept bills them, and if not, the state pays.
So I took my daughter in for her 2nd MMR before school started, and a few weeks later got an EoB from our insurance denying coverage because the provider was out of network. The health dept is out of network? How is that possible? Insurance is supposed to cover 100% of immunizations, and yet here they are refusing to pay. So I call and the snotty witch with customer service tells me I need to switch docs. I try to explain that this is standard practice in our area--we would have to drive over an hour to find a Ped clinic that does immunizations in-house, and they won't do them for us because 1) none of their docs are our PCP and 2) my kid's vaccines were delayed due to health issues when she was little and they will only vax there on the CDC schedule. No delaying and no cherry picking. Doesn't matter, don't care, if I want immunizations covered, I will have to drive a couple of hours to find a clinic that will do it and it's not their problem. So the state paid for it, and while I realize we're fortunate in that, it makes me mad that we pay for insurance and then they find every loophole they can find to not pay for services promised. While I agree the situation sucks and doesn't make any sense, this is the part where I said most people don't actually educate themselves on the policy you choose.
Its not not your insurances fault you chose an out-of-network doctor. They have lists with your plan on where you can and cannot go. You are fully able to check ahead of time.
You misunderstood that. Our PCP is IN network. We didn't see an out of network doc. No doc in this area gives vaccines tho, they all refer to the county health unit, which is state funded. We have never had trouble getting it paid for by insurance before, but for some reason the "provider" listed for the immunization program (who we did NOT see, we just saw a nurse) is no longer in-network. I didn't even know there was a provider for this separate from our PCP. I tried to get them to bill it thru our doc, but the lady in the office said they couldn't. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 528
Location: Its Freaking Freezing Up Here... | Wowza. I knew insurance was expensive down south, but I had no idea to what extent. What does it cost to deliver a baby??
I know we pay for our health care in other ways in Canada, but I have to say, it's comforting knowing we can go to the doctor at any time and not have to pay anything. | |
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 IMA No Hair Style Gal
Posts: 2594
| Yikes, counting my blessings. My deductible is $2500, I pay under $700 a year....and have a health savings account that my district puts $500 in every year that accumulates. This can go towards my deductible. (Good insurance=teacher perk)
Husband has seperate insurance as it was cheaper for us to do a single plan through each of our employers....his is about $50 a month?? He also has a health savings account that his work puts $800 into. Between the HSA's we don't really have to pay out of pocket. Thankfully my insurance has not really increased/changed either....AND I get free dental and vision that my school district pays for.
28 now....and not once in my life has insurance ever been a concern....I had no idea this was an issue for so many people. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2013
Location: Piedmont, OK | I am self employed and have a policy thru BC/BS until the end of the year $200/mo and a $6000 deductible. But my Farmers Insurance agent found me a better policy. It's $220 per month but zero deductible! It is thru US health group. I think the enrollment ends Jan 15 but anyone has a policy like I had thru BCBS you might call your insurance agent and see if they know of something better. Or if you are in OK I can give you my agents number. | |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | I've always had very reasonable great coverage thru employers........until last year. The plan my company had been on was no longer offered. I'd been paying $400 a month for my husband and I. $750 deductable yearly for the two of us - and we'd never had a doctor turn it down. Some of the places I'd worked covered all of my insurance premiums, others covered a portion.
Now - we have an HSA plan - so basically it's like not having insurance until you've met your $6000 deductible EACH. I now pay $450 monthly for us to have this lovely coverage. #iwantmyoldplanback!
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | MS2011 - 2015-12-21 2:30 PM I've always had very reasonable great coverage thru employers........until last year. The plan my company had been on was no longer offered. I'd been paying $400 a month for my husband and I. $750 deductable yearly for the two of us - and we'd never had a doctor turn it down. Some of the places I'd worked covered all of my insurance premiums, others covered a portion.
Now - we have an HSA plan - so basically it's like not having insurance until you've met your $6000 deductible EACH. I now pay $450 monthly for us to have this lovely coverage. #iwantmyoldplanback!
Are you putting aside a monthly deposit to your HSA account? This is a tax deferred plan, correct? | |
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Expert
Posts: 1956
Location: Ky | What many are saying they want, universal coverage areoss the country regardless of state, lower deductables, more affordable coverage, etc sounds like single payer but those same people say they are against single payer.
I've always believed that if we are going to have national healthcare it should be single payer. Medicare is single payer. It crosses state lines, there is no network and it's far more affordable than anything described here. 99% of medicare elidgibles do not pay a premium for part A. The part B premium is $104.90/mo for all but the highest income earners, {over $85K for an individual}, and will remain $104.90/mo for those already on medicare for next year. People new to medicare witll pay $121/mo for Part B.
Part B is your doctors. The deductable is $147. That will increase to $166 Jan 1. There a part A deductable, {hospital coverage, approx $1300}.
Medicare does not include drug coverage unless administered in a doctor's office. The average part D, {Rx coverage}, premium is about $40/mo.Some are available as low as $18/mo.
People can pay more is they decide they want more coverage than that and buy a medicare supplement or medigap plan. Or participate in a Medicare Advantage plan, {Part C of Medicare}. But those are optional. The medicare advantage program is administered by private companies. Most have networks and they are not just state specific but county specific as well.
That came from the MMA, medicare moderization act, of 2003. It was W's gift to insurance companies. It was the largest entitlement program passed into law since the implementation of medicare when W signed it into law. Wonder why you don't hear the GOP crowing about that?
Everyone says they don't want "government run" healthcare. Well medicare is government run and they do a far better job of it than the private companies do of running medicare advantage and Obamacare.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Two wonderful examples of government run healthcare: Medicare and the VA. The VA should be shut down and our vets should be given good life insurance for life instead. Most VAs are substandard.
They operate on a budget of over $55 Billion.....for that corrupt, incompetent system.
Why am I not surprised that good ole jd&ez thinks single payor is wonderful? Typical socialist mentality.
The average person paying into medicare who has paid into the system probably has well over $300,000 invested in that program....if you take into account what that investment would have earned if they would have put that same amount into an IRA, or 401K. Do the math.
If you die before you are 65, what happens to the medicare "investment" you made? It falls into the bloated abyss, that's what. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ObamaCare was DESIGNED to be a failure.....so the system collapses and the only option left is single payor. That's exactly how that dirty rotten lying bastard wants it. | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | Bear - 2015-12-20 7:22 PM
ObamaCare was DESIGNED to be a failure.....so the system collapses and the only option left is single payor. That's exactly how that dirty rotten lying bastard wants it.
Exactly.......... | |
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Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | Bear - 2015-12-20 7:19 PM
Two wonderful examples of government run healthcare: Medicare and the VA. The VA should be shut down and our vets should be given good life insurance for life instead. Most VAs are substandard.
They operate on a budget of over $55 Billion.....for that corrupt, incompetent system.
Why am I not surprised that good ole jd&ez thinks single payor is wonderful? Typical socialist mentality.
The average person paying into medicare who has paid into the system probably has well over $300,000 invested in that program....if you take into account what that investment would have earned if they would have put that same amount into an IRA, or 401K. Do the math.
If you die before you are 65, what happens to the medicare "investment" you made? It falls into the bloated abyss, that's what.
And lets not forget single payer is not free.........you will most likely welcome a income tax of about 52%.....how is that for free healthcare....... | |
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"Hottie"
Posts: 1373
Location: Okemah,OK | Vickie - 2015-12-21 7:26 AM
r_beau - 2015-12-20 8:49 PM Three 4 Luck - 2015-12-19 10:02 AM Here's how great our current insurance is. Living in a rural area with a sparse population, doctors do not do immunizations. They refer everyone to the county health department. It's a practical arrangement due to the cost and perishability (is that a word? LOL) of vaccines. If you have insurance, the health dept bills them, and if not, the state pays.
So I took my daughter in for her 2nd MMR before school started, and a few weeks later got an EoB from our insurance denying coverage because the provider was out of network. The health dept is out of network? How is that possible? Insurance is supposed to cover 100% of immunizations, and yet here they are refusing to pay. So I call and the snotty witch with customer service tells me I need to switch docs. I try to explain that this is standard practice in our area--we would have to drive over an hour to find a Ped clinic that does immunizations in-house, and they won't do them for us because 1) none of their docs are our PCP and 2) my kid's vaccines were delayed due to health issues when she was little and they will only vax there on the CDC schedule. No delaying and no cherry picking. Doesn't matter, don't care, if I want immunizations covered, I will have to drive a couple of hours to find a clinic that will do it and it's not their problem. So the state paid for it, and while I realize we're fortunate in that, it makes me mad that we pay for insurance and then they find every loophole they can find to not pay for services promised. While I agree the situation sucks and doesn't make any sense, this is the part where I said most people don't actually educate themselves on the policy you choose.
Its not not your insurances fault you chose an out-of-network doctor. They have lists with your plan on where you can and cannot go. You are fully able to check ahead of time.
Our little girl had to go to NICU at three days old. Our network pediatrician admitted her to the children's hospital. Got a bill.... The hospital was in network (Blue Cross Blue Shield) but the doctor was not. So we were stuck paying her full bill and we have one of the largest insurance companies on the planet. I am inclined to think she isn't in network on purpose. I mean once the hospital you are going to is in your plan, how many people stop a doctor in the NICU and ask if she's in your network (& being out of network, she can negotiate her own rates). Heck, we admitted her at midnight and the doctor didn't come in until 6 am the next day. We're not allowed to stay with her so what were we supposed to do about it??? My insurance said if we had admitted thru the ER or if it was an emergency (a 3 day old with dangerous jaundice and ordered to the hospital by her pediatrician apparently isn't an emergency ), then they would've paid. It's exhausting!!! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1956
Location: Ky | Bear - 2015-12-21 6:19 PM Two wonderful examples of government run healthcare: Medicare and the VA. The VA should be shut down and our vets should be given good life insurance for life instead. Most VAs are substandard. They operate on a budget of over $55 Billion.....for that corrupt, incompetent system. Why am I not surprised that good ole jd&ez thinks single payor is wonderful? Typical socialist mentality. The average person paying into medicare who has paid into the system probably has well over $300,000 invested in that program....if you take into account what that investment would have earned if they would have put that same amount into an IRA, or 401K. Do the math. If you die before you are 65, what happens to the medicare "investment" you made? It falls into the bloated abyss, that's what.
I guess you can call me a socialist since I give you the facts. Seems only right then that I can call you a hypocrite for railing against the private market system while wanting the benefits of single payer.
The capitalist system of having private carriers administer the part C and D of medicare is an utter failure and costs the taxpayers 15% more than original medicare which is government run. Might that be why the GOP doesn't promote their entitlement baby? Might they also be hypocrites? | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | jd&ez - 2015-12-21 10:43 PM
Bear - 2015-12-21 6:19 PM Two wonderful examples of government run healthcare: Medicare and the VA. The VA should be shut down and our vets should be given good life insurance for life instead. Most VAs are substandard. They operate on a budget of over $55 Billion.....for that corrupt, incompetent system. Why am I not surprised that good ole jd&ez thinks single payor is wonderful? Typical socialist mentality. The average person paying into medicare who has paid into the system probably has well over $300,000 invested in that program....if you take into account what that investment would have earned if they would have put that same amount into an IRA, or 401K. Do the math. If you die before you are 65, what happens to the medicare "investment" you made? It falls into the bloated abyss, that's what.
I guess you can call me a socialist since I give you the facts. Seems only right then that I can call you a hypocrite for railing against the private market system while wanting the benefits of single payer.
The capitalist system of having private carriers administer the part C and D of medicare is an utter failure and costs the taxpayers 15% more than original medicare which is government run. Might that be why the GOP doesn't promote their entitlement baby? Might they also be hypocrites?
I should think you would be flattered to be called a socialist. After all, isn't that what you are?
If anyone wants to get an idea of what a totally government-run healthcare system would look like, look no further than the VA system. How's that working out? The way to fix our dysfunctional healthcare system is practically the opposite of what's being done.
Right now, the medicare tax is 2.9%. You act like Medicare is such a great program. I don't think so at all. If you take someone earning a very modest, below average income of $40,000 per year over 40 years, and put 2.9% of that into an IRA type account that averages a fairly conservative 6% rate of return over that time span, you'd have a healthcare nest egg accumulated that would be around $330,000. You would OWN that. You can buy a helluva lot of healthcare/insurance with that kind of money. If you combined that with social security, where the equivalent of 12.4% of your income is confiscated by the government each year, and you privatize that, you are looking at over $1.5 Million that you OWN for retirement, including healthcare. Keep in mind, we are talking about someone with a below average income over their lifetime.
As it stands now, you own nothing. You are totally dependent on government giving back a small fraction of what you ought to be getting, for the amount you put into the system. Many, if not most retirees rely upon supplemental insurance because Medicare is inadequate. You progressive socialists have managed to scare the hel! out of people into thinking that government programs are the answer. They aren't.
What happens to the 15.3 % of our incomes that is confiscated by the government, ostensibly in the name of Medicare and Social Security? Does that money "work" for us? Does it generate anything? Does it grow? Does it help the economy? The answer is NO, on all counts.
The only thing it generates is an IOU which is torn up if you die before you reach retirement age, for the most part. If that 15.3% were to be invested in a protected IRA, that would translate into well over $1 TRILLION infused into the economy every single year. That, in turn, would generate wealth, jobs, and tax revenues.....hundreds of billions of new revenues. That's how we could get our economy revived. That's how we could afford to provide care for the truly needy, without borrowing it. That is how we eliminate this whole matter as a political tool.
This is why I hate progressivism and socialism. Sorry if I killed this thread! | |
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Bear - 2015-12-22 10:03 AM jd&ez - 2015-12-21 10:43 PM Bear - 2015-12-21 6:19 PM Two wonderful examples of government run healthcare: Medicare and the VA. The VA should be shut down and our vets should be given good life insurance for life instead. Most VAs are substandard. They operate on a budget of over $55 Billion.....for that corrupt, incompetent system. Why am I not surprised that good ole jd&ez thinks single payor is wonderful? Typical socialist mentality. The average person paying into medicare who has paid into the system probably has well over $300,000 invested in that program....if you take into account what that investment would have earned if they would have put that same amount into an IRA, or 401K. Do the math. If you die before you are 65, what happens to the medicare "investment" you made? It falls into the bloated abyss, that's what. I guess you can call me a socialist since I give you the facts. Seems only right then that I can call you a hypocrite for railing against the private market system while wanting the benefits of single payer.
The capitalist system of having private carriers administer the part C and D of medicare is an utter failure and costs the taxpayers 15% more than original medicare which is government run. Might that be why the GOP doesn't promote their entitlement baby? Might they also be hypocrites? I should think you would be flattered to be called a socialist. After all, isn't that what you are? If anyone wants to get an idea of what a totally government-run healthcare system would look like, look no further than the VA system. How's that working out? The way to fix our dysfunctional healthcare system is practically the opposite of what's being done. Right now, the medicare tax is 2.9%. You act like Medicare is such a great program. I don't think so at all. If you take someone earning a very modest, below average income of $40,000 per year over 40 years, and put 2.9% of that into an IRA type account that averages a fairly conservative 6% rate of return over that time span, you'd have a healthcare nest egg accumulated that would be around $330,000. You would OWN that. You can buy a helluva lot of healthcare/insurance with that kind of money. If you combined that with social security, where the equivalent of 12.4% of your income is confiscated by the government each year, and you privatize that, you are looking at over $1.5 Million that you OWN for retirement, including healthcare. Keep in mind, we are talking about someone with a below average income over their lifetime. As it stands now, you own nothing. You are totally dependent on government giving back a small fraction of what you ought to be getting, for the amount you put into the system. Many, if not most retirees rely upon supplemental insurance because Medicare is inadequate. You progressive socialists have managed to scare the hel! out of people into thinking that government programs are the answer. They aren't. What happens to the 15.3 % of our incomes that is confiscated by the government, ostensibly in the name of Medicare and Social Security? Does that money "work" for us? Does it generate anything? Does it grow? Does it help the economy? The answer is NO, on all counts. The only thing it generates is an IOU which is torn up if you die before you reach retirement age, for the most part. If that 15.3% were to be invested in a protected IRA, that would translate into well over $1 TRILLION infused into the economy every single year. That, in turn, would generate wealth, jobs, and tax revenues.....hundreds of billions of new revenues. That's how we could get our economy revived. That's how we could afford to provide care for the truly needy, without borrowing it. That is how we eliminate this whole matter as a political tool. This is why I hate progressivism and socialism. Sorry if I killed this thread!
Well if Government Programs are the answer, then why does The Soviet Union no longer exist? I mean that Government was Single Payer Healthcare along with host of other Government Programs? Smiling | |
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To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Bear - 2015-12-21 7:22 PM ObamaCare was DESIGNED to be a failure.....so the system collapses and the only option left is single payor. That's exactly how that dirty rotten lying bastard wants it.
Bear, it is the Christmas time, don't be so negative, have hope for the future. I know you are a retired doctor, but still take in the spirit and have hope if a better future. It's has got to get better. If it has to be single payer, then first the corruption has to be ended. Why can't medicare negotiate a better price for drugs? Because the pharmacy companies have bought enough senators and legislators to block every attempt to allow it. Folks, for the love of people, vote all of them out. I don't care which party, get rid of them and the big business lobbyists and their dark money PAC's. Take back our country from the filthy rich. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | It's simply a matter of comparing the value of two different investment strategies.
Status quo:
1.) A "promise" to provide basic healthcare needs, IF you live long enough, which often necessitates a supplimental policy to cover anything that the .gov refuses to cover.
2.) A "promise" to grant you a minimum subsistence income once you retire. One that usually can't meet the bare minimum on which you can live......again, that is IF you live long enough.
3.) Does nothing for the economy.....no revenues, no investment, no jobs.
4.) If you die and have no living dependents, the IOU gets torn up.
In other words, the system incentivizes early death. Goes hand-in-hand with Medicare, interestingly.
Privatized System:
1.) Allows you to select from a wide range of insurance options that would be available from a competitive free market. Of that several hundred thousand dollar nest egg reserved for healthcare needs, you could choose a catastrophic plan that would easily be affordable for your lifetime, with more than enough to cover the deductibles for the rest of your life.
2.) In the case of retirement income, you can easily live at or above the level you lived on while working, without putting much of a dent in that nest egg.
3.) Creates a "stimulus" to the economy through the infusion of hundreds of billions every year....maybe even more than $1 Trillion. This stimulus would be via non borrowed money....investments through the private sector. This generates tax jobs, incomes, and massive tax revenues, which could both fund a system designed to care for the poor, as well as lower our national debt. Gee...imagine that.
4.) If you die, it goes wherever you want......charity, family, whatever. That's because you own it.
For a peek at how this would work, take a look at how it worked for Galveston county. They were able to opt out of social security, in lieu of their own privatized system. | |
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To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Bear - 2015-12-22 2:13 PM It's simply a matter of comparing the value of two different investment strategies. Status quo: 1.) A "promise" to provide basic healthcare needs, IF you live long enough, which often necessitates a supplimental policy to cover anything that the .gov refuses to cover. 2.) A "promise" to grant you a minimum subsistence income once you retire. One that usually can't meet the bare minimum on which you can live......again, that is IF you live long enough. 3.) Does nothing for the economy.....no revenues, no investment, no jobs. 4.) If you die and have no living dependents, the IOU gets torn up. In other words, the system incentivizes early death. Goes hand-in-hand with Medicare, interestingly. Privatized System: 1.) Allows you to select from a wide range of insurance options that would be available from a competitive free market. Of that several hundred thousand dollar nest egg reserved for healthcare needs, you could choose a catastrophic plan that would easily be affordable for your lifetime, with more than enough to cover the deductibles for the rest of your life. 2.) In the case of retirement income, you can easily live at or above the level you lived on while working, without putting much of a dent in that nest egg. 3.) Creates a "stimulus" to the economy through the infusion of hundreds of billions every year....maybe even more than $1 Trillion. This stimulus would be via non borrowed money....investments through the private sector. This generates tax jobs, incomes, and massive tax revenues, which could both fund a system designed to care for the poor, as well as lower our national debt. Gee...imagine that. 4.) If you die, it goes wherever you want......charity, family, whatever. That's because you own it. For a peek at how this would work, take a look at how it worked for Galveston county. They were able to opt out of social security, in lieu of their own privatized system.
Your "stimulis" is hard working people's money being turned over to investors who will theoretically make you money for your retirement. Do you really trust Wall Street with your future ? These are the same crooks who tanked our economy with their money grubbing schemes. Don't fall for it. We will keep our money invested in our land, our livestock and our future. The "investors" will get no more of mine to turn into their obsene profits.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Vickie - 2015-12-22 12:53 PM
Bear - 2015-12-21 7:22 PM ObamaCare was DESIGNED to be a failure.....so the system collapses and the only option left is single payor. That's exactly how that dirty rotten lying bastard wants it.
Bear, it is the Christmas time, don't be so negative, have hope for the future. I know you are a retired doctor, but still take in the spirit and have hope if a better future. It's has got to get better. If it has to be single payer, then first the corruption has to be ended. Why can't medicare negotiate a better price for drugs? Because the pharmacy companies have bought enough senators and legislators to block every attempt to allow it. Folks, for the love of people, vote all of them out. I don't care which party, get rid of them and the big business lobbyists and their dark money PAC's. Take back our country from the filthy rich.
First of all, Vickie, I'm not retired. I hope I never have to retire.
Secondly, this has nothing to do with Christmas. Third, I have a TON of "hope"......I hope to see people and politicians wake up. I hope the system can be changed. I hope that the dirty rotten bastard does no more damage. I hope we see the day, once again, where American exceptionalism is praiseworthy and encouraged. Nothing is a more powerful weapon in negotiating lower costs than open markets and robust free market capitalism. When it comes to healthcare, people are not CONSUMERS. All they care about is being "covered"...,,beyond that, they couldn't care less about the cost of healthcare goods and services.
Do you want me to give you an actual REAL example of a product in the healthcare that has improved quality at a lower cost? If you REALLY care, then you will either give me the answer, or ask me, and I'll give it. BUT I predict you will not. Surprise me. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Vickie, do you own any retirement plan? IRA? 401K?
Answer that, please.
Edited by Bear 2015-12-22 1:30 PM
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Having Smokin Bandits
Posts: 4572
Location: Woodstown, NJ | Vickie - 2015-12-22 2:25 PM Bear - 2015-12-22 2:13 PM It's simply a matter of comparing the value of two different investment strategies. Status quo: 1.) A "promise" to provide basic healthcare needs, IF you live long enough, which often necessitates a supplimental policy to cover anything that the .gov refuses to cover. 2.) A "promise" to grant you a minimum subsistence income once you retire. One that usually can't meet the bare minimum on which you can live......again, that is IF you live long enough. 3.) Does nothing for the economy.....no revenues, no investment, no jobs. 4.) If you die and have no living dependents, the IOU gets torn up. In other words, the system incentivizes early death. Goes hand-in-hand with Medicare, interestingly. Privatized System: 1.) Allows you to select from a wide range of insurance options that would be available from a competitive free market. Of that several hundred thousand dollar nest egg reserved for healthcare needs, you could choose a catastrophic plan that would easily be affordable for your lifetime, with more than enough to cover the deductibles for the rest of your life. 2.) In the case of retirement income, you can easily live at or above the level you lived on while working, without putting much of a dent in that nest egg. 3.) Creates a "stimulus" to the economy through the infusion of hundreds of billions every year....maybe even more than $1 Trillion. This stimulus would be via non borrowed money....investments through the private sector. This generates tax jobs, incomes, and massive tax revenues, which could both fund a system designed to care for the poor, as well as lower our national debt. Gee...imagine that. 4.) If you die, it goes wherever you want......charity, family, whatever. That's because you own it. For a peek at how this would work, take a look at how it worked for Galveston county. They were able to opt out of social security, in lieu of their own privatized system. Your "stimulis" is hard working people's money being turned over to investors who will theoretically make you money for your retirement. Do you really trust Wall Street with your future ? These are the same crooks who tanked our economy with their money grubbing schemes. Don't fall for it. We will keep our money invested in our land, our livestock and our future. The "investors" will get no more of mine to turn into their obsene profits.
Didn't President Bush want to privatize Social Security right before the crash? We'd be in an even worse predicament if that had gone through. As it was, a lot of retirees lost their savings and investments and are now living in cheap apartments and worrying they're going to run out of money before they die. They were hoping to live on those savings. At least they didn't lose their Social Security too. The last people I'd want to give my money to is Wall St.! Talk about a Ponzi scheme! I have to wonder who would want to feed this beast and make them richer and bigger? | |
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To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Bear - 2015-12-22 2:28 PM Vickie, do you own any retirement plan? IRA? 401K? Answer that, please. Yes I have retirement, in a savings account and in a Roth IRA. No I do not trust Wall Street at all, that is my point. I think you misunderstood when I talked about corruption, I definately did not mean doctors, I meant the inurance companies, the pharmacy companies, the private hospital groups and the private nursing home groups. Doctors can hardly make a profit now a days due to decreased payments from these groups. These greedy people are buying their way into every aspect of our country and doing it by buying politicians. We have to get our politics under control and then we can start cleaning up the corruption. And I don't care who is in the White House, the problem doesn't even start there with the "house temp" We have a new president every 4 or 8 years but nothing changes, does it? Lobbying must be stopped. No one should go into politics to become rich, but they do, don't they?
Edited by Vickie 2015-12-24 4:45 AM
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| After reading through here I feel so incredibly fortunate to have health care through my employer.
My SO and I have had many conversations about this. I'm moving to his place in the spring and it will be an hour commute one way for me to work. But my job pays well and I have full benefits. I can't lose that.
My eyes will be open for other work closer to home but before the salary matches what I make now the BENEFITS must match. A bill the size of my mortgage is not acceptable for healthcare I don't use much.
I plan to move and commute for a few years unless something great pops up closer that checks every single box. I don't want to be still commuting when we are ready to start a family though, so I sure as heck hope by then our wonderful government has this whole craptastic situation worked out and we have reasonable options if either of us is forced to the marketplace. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | SmokinBandits - 2015-12-23 10:02 PM Vickie - 2015-12-22 2:25 PM Bear - 2015-12-22 2:13 PM It's simply a matter of comparing the value of two different investment strategies. Status quo: 1.) A "promise" to provide basic healthcare needs, IF you live long enough, which often necessitates a supplimental policy to cover anything that the .gov refuses to cover. 2.) A "promise" to grant you a minimum subsistence income once you retire. One that usually can't meet the bare minimum on which you can live......again, that is IF you live long enough. 3.) Does nothing for the economy.....no revenues, no investment, no jobs. 4.) If you die and have no living dependents, the IOU gets torn up. In other words, the system incentivizes early death. Goes hand-in-hand with Medicare, interestingly. Privatized System: 1.) Allows you to select from a wide range of insurance options that would be available from a competitive free market. Of that several hundred thousand dollar nest egg reserved for healthcare needs, you could choose a catastrophic plan that would easily be affordable for your lifetime, with more than enough to cover the deductibles for the rest of your life. 2.) In the case of retirement income, you can easily live at or above the level you lived on while working, without putting much of a dent in that nest egg. 3.) Creates a "stimulus" to the economy through the infusion of hundreds of billions every year....maybe even more than $1 Trillion. This stimulus would be via non borrowed money....investments through the private sector. This generates tax jobs, incomes, and massive tax revenues, which could both fund a system designed to care for the poor, as well as lower our national debt. Gee...imagine that. 4.) If you die, it goes wherever you want......charity, family, whatever. That's because you own it. For a peek at how this would work, take a look at how it worked for Galveston county. They were able to opt out of social security, in lieu of their own privatized system. Your "stimulis" is hard working people's money being turned over to investors who will theoretically make you money for your retirement. Do you really trust Wall Street with your future ? These are the same crooks who tanked our economy with their money grubbing schemes. Don't fall for it. We will keep our money invested in our land, our livestock and our future. The "investors" will get no more of mine to turn into their obsene profits.
The only people who lost out on that deal were the ones who panicked and pulled their money out. The ones who hung in there a few years saw a full recovery and then some. I don't trust the Wall Street folks either, but money invested there is still better off than with social security. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Vickie - 2015-12-24 4:43 AM
Bear - 2015-12-22 2:28 PM Vickie, do you own any retirement plan? IRA? 401K? Answer that, please. Yes I have retirement, in a savings account and in a Roth IRA. No I do not trust Wall Street at all, that is my point. I think you misunderstood when I talked about corruption, I definately did not mean doctors, I meant the inurance companies, the pharmacy companies, the private hospital groups and the private nursing home groups. Doctors can hardly make a profit now a days due to decreased payments from these groups. These greedy people are buying their way into every aspect of our country and doing it by buying politicians. We have to get our politics under control and then we can start cleaning up the corruption. And I don't care who is in the White House, the problem doesn't even start there with the "house temp" We have a new president every 4 or 8 years but nothing changes, does it? Lobbying must be stopped. No one should go into politics to become rich, but they do, don't they?
OK, Vickie. You have invested in a Roth IRA. That is smart, and I'd be willing to bet you would do it again. That means you cannot be taxed on a single penny your Roth earns...ever. That Roth IRA has probably performed at or around 5-8% annual rate of return since its inception over 25 years ago. That money is invested in securities...stocks and bonds. In other words, you put your own money in "Wall Street". If it's good enough for your Roth, I say why not have your social security go into a similar investment vehicle? This idea that social security is some sort of sacred cow is pure hogwash promoted by politicians who love to use it as a political tool for the feeble minded. Look up the long term performance figures of Vanguard, for example. There are peaks and valleys in yields, but over 40 years time, you would be infinitely more wealthy if your money was invested in a moderate-conservative fund, as opposed to SS where most only get a fraction of their investment, by comparison. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | SmokinBandits - 2015-12-23 10:02 PM
Vickie - 2015-12-22 2:25 PM Bear - 2015-12-22 2:13 PM It's simply a matter of comparing the value of two different investment strategies. Status quo: 1.) A "promise" to provide basic healthcare needs, IF you live long enough, which often necessitates a supplimental policy to cover anything that the .gov refuses to cover. 2.) A "promise" to grant you a minimum subsistence income once you retire. One that usually can't meet the bare minimum on which you can live......again, that is IF you live long enough. 3.) Does nothing for the economy.....no revenues, no investment, no jobs. 4.) If you die and have no living dependents, the IOU gets torn up. In other words, the system incentivizes early death. Goes hand-in-hand with Medicare, interestingly. Privatized System: 1.) Allows you to select from a wide range of insurance options that would be available from a competitive free market. Of that several hundred thousand dollar nest egg reserved for healthcare needs, you could choose a catastrophic plan that would easily be affordable for your lifetime, with more than enough to cover the deductibles for the rest of your life. 2.) In the case of retirement income, you can easily live at or above the level you lived on while working, without putting much of a dent in that nest egg. 3.) Creates a "stimulus" to the economy through the infusion of hundreds of billions every year....maybe even more than $1 Trillion. This stimulus would be via non borrowed money....investments through the private sector. This generates tax jobs, incomes, and massive tax revenues, which could both fund a system designed to care for the poor, as well as lower our national debt. Gee...imagine that. 4.) If you die, it goes wherever you want......charity, family, whatever. That's because you own it. For a peek at how this would work, take a look at how it worked for Galveston county. They were able to opt out of social security, in lieu of their own privatized system. Your "stimulis" is hard working people's money being turned over to investors who will theoretically make you money for your retirement. Do you really trust Wall Street with your future ? These are the same crooks who tanked our economy with their money grubbing schemes. Don't fall for it. We will keep our money invested in our land, our livestock and our future. The "investors" will get no more of mine to turn into their obsene profits.
If you owned your SS and it was invested in a typical low to moderate risk mutual fund, over the life of that investment, you would be so much better off, it isn't even funny. You can't look at 5 or even 10 year numbers. There will always be peaks and valleys. You have to look at the life of the fund.....at least 40 years. Back in the 90's, there were years where if you didn't make 15% rate of return, something was wrong. In recent years, you would be lucky if you earned 3-4%. That's normal ebb and flow. You only lose money if you cash it in. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | SmokinBandits - 2015-12-23 10:02 PM
Vickie - 2015-12-22 2:25 PM Bear - 2015-12-22 2:13 PM It's simply a matter of comparing the value of two different investment strategies. Status quo: 1.) A "promise" to provide basic healthcare needs, IF you live long enough, which often necessitates a supplimental policy to cover anything that the .gov refuses to cover. 2.) A "promise" to grant you a minimum subsistence income once you retire. One that usually can't meet the bare minimum on which you can live......again, that is IF you live long enough. 3.) Does nothing for the economy.....no revenues, no investment, no jobs. 4.) If you die and have no living dependents, the IOU gets torn up. In other words, the system incentivizes early death. Goes hand-in-hand with Medicare, interestingly. Privatized System: 1.) Allows you to select from a wide range of insurance options that would be available from a competitive free market. Of that several hundred thousand dollar nest egg reserved for healthcare needs, you could choose a catastrophic plan that would easily be affordable for your lifetime, with more than enough to cover the deductibles for the rest of your life. 2.) In the case of retirement income, you can easily live at or above the level you lived on while working, without putting much of a dent in that nest egg. 3.) Creates a "stimulus" to the economy through the infusion of hundreds of billions every year....maybe even more than $1 Trillion. This stimulus would be via non borrowed money....investments through the private sector. This generates tax jobs, incomes, and massive tax revenues, which could both fund a system designed to care for the poor, as well as lower our national debt. Gee...imagine that. 4.) If you die, it goes wherever you want......charity, family, whatever. That's because you own it. For a peek at how this would work, take a look at how it worked for Galveston county. They were able to opt out of social security, in lieu of their own privatized system. Your "stimulis" is hard working people's money being turned over to investors who will theoretically make you money for your retirement. Do you really trust Wall Street with your future ? These are the same crooks who tanked our economy with their money grubbing schemes. Don't fall for it. We will keep our money invested in our land, our livestock and our future. The "investors" will get no more of mine to turn into their obsene profits.
If you owned your SS and it was invested in a typical low to moderate risk mutual fund, over the life of that investment, you would be so much better off, it isn't even funny. You can't look at 5 or even 10 year numbers. There will always be peaks and valleys. You have to look at the life of the fund.....at least 40 years. Back in the 90's, there were years where if you didn't make 15% rate of return, something was wrong. In recent years, you would be lucky if you earned 3-4%. That's normal ebb and flow. You only lose money if you cash it in. | |
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To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Bear, now we are getting into the difference between defined contributions and defined benefits. Unfortunately again we get into politics. IBM retirees had defined benefits, the best thing for employees. Sadly when the company started to fall on hard times the first place they looked for money was their retirement trust fund. They convinced the courts that they shouldn't have to honor the union contracts from so many years ago and pay their retirees when they were having problems making a profit. In a horific decision during the Reagan years, the courts decided that companies should not have to honor retirement commitments if it interfered with the bottom line profit.
It is still happening today. When a company says we are going with a 407k, that is defined contribution. What you get from that is decided by Wall Street and the stock market. It is not retirememt at all, it is a forced contribution to the big banks for their profit.
Social Security is defined benefits plan. If you privatise it then it becomes defined contribution. Only a fool would choose defined contributions with this financial climate.
Edited by Vickie 2015-12-24 1:04 PM
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2015-12-24 12:59 PM
Bear, now we are getting into the difference between defined contributions and defined benefits. Unfortunately again we get into politics. IBM retirees had defined benefits, the best thing for employees. Sadly when the company started to fall on hard times the first place they looked for money was their retirement trust fund. They convinced the courts that they shouldn't have to honor the union contracts from so many years ago and pay their retirees when they were having problems making a profit. In a horific decision during the Reagan years, the courts decided that companies should not have to honor retirement commitments if it interfered with the bottom line profit.
It is still happening today. When a company says we are going with a 407k, that is defined contribution. What you get from that is decided by Wall Street and the stock market. It is not retirememt at all, it is a forced contribution to the big banks for their profit.
Social Security is defined benefits plan. If you privatise it then it becomes defined contribution. Only a fool would choose defined contributions with this financial climate.
Galveston Texas, the City of, opted out of Social Security in 1982 and historically and currently is doing better by its retirees than Social Security. In essence Galveston privatized S.S., there is historical and current precedents to argue/prove Privation of S.S. has been and is successful.............................
My point is this, anything and anytime the Federal Government has interfered in Private American's PERSONAL Business, the has been negative to the point of being a nightmare! The current event to prove this is ObamaCare! | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Vickie - 2015-12-24 12:59 PM
Bear, now we are getting into the difference between defined contributions and defined benefits. Unfortunately again we get into politics. IBM retirees had defined benefits, the best thing for employees. Sadly when the company started to fall on hard times the first place they looked for money was their retirement trust fund. They convinced the courts that they shouldn't have to honor the union contracts from so many years ago and pay their retirees when they were having problems making a profit. In a horific decision during the Reagan years, the courts decided that companies should not have to honor retirement commitments if it interfered with the bottom line profit.
It is still happening today. When a company says we are going with a 407k, that is defined contribution. What you get from that is decided by Wall Street and the stock market. It is not retirememt at all, it is a forced contribution to the big banks for their profit.
Social Security is defined benefits plan. If you privatise it then it becomes defined contribution. Only a fool would choose defined contributions with this financial climate.
What I'm talking about would not be a trust fund. It would be identical to SS in terms of contribution $ amount. The employers portion of the contribution would go toward the individual's designated IRA. The same rules would apply.......except I would say you ought to be able to withdraw at age 59 1/2, or early withdrawl, in the event of disability. This would not be a "benefit" per se'. Scare tactics suggesting that evil corporations will raid the account would not work, because they wouldn't have access to it. When you die, it becomes part of your estate. I think this would also be a huge incentive for "work over welfare" because people would quickly realize it's a pretty sweet deal and they would want to get in the game. The impact on the economy and jobs and revenues to the fed would be huge.....in essence, about the same amount of money as that awful "stimulus plan of 2009", except that stimulus plan was all borrowed money.....this would be real, year, after year. I just don't understand the logic of saying it would be too risky, when the same individuals are putting their own money in "Wall Street" whether it's a Roth or any other retirement vehicle. A lot of people have contributed to SS for 40-50 years and what do they get? Many get a meager "entitlement" check for $1000-1500 a month, and the government and politicians make us feel that it's some sort of magnanimous gesture. I say, entitlement my ass.....that's OUR money. Even people who earn below average wages over their life span could get a comfortable income for the rest of their lives without having to be beholding to political fear tactics. As Foundation Horse suggested, don't take my word for it. Look at Galveston Texas and their experience. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba514
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