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 Veteran
Posts: 262
 
| I have a co-worker ask me how to feed her hard keeper. I have a good feeding program for mine but they're barrel horses. This girl is an adult beginner. I don't want to give her the,same program in case it makes her horse a little hot. What are you recommendations?
I feed 2-4 pounds alfalfa pellets depending on horse
1/2- 1 pound oats
1 pound Max E Glo rice bran pellets
Thoughts for my coworker that needs her horse to not get hot? |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
 
Location: Oklahoma | I would do alfalfa pellets with the Adeptus Nutrition Gleam and Gain 60. It's great for putting weight on and does not make them hot. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 999
Location: Sunny So Cal | I would try some Muscle Mass, I have used it mutiple times on horses without them getting hot. |
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 It's not my fault I'm perfect
Posts: 13739
Location: Where the long tails flow, ND | I would assume there are some hind gut issues to make them hard keepers.
I use the following:
2lbs Oats
1/2 cut Flax
Cur Ost (blend depending on horse)
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Expert
Posts: 2121
Location: The Great Northwest | I suggest no grain and alfalfa hay and grass hay available 24/7. Alfalfa pellets dampened will get the other supplements ate just fine. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Well personally I've fed oats to 3 horses of varying temperments (including VERY VERY high strung) and it's never made any of them hot in the slightest. My current program is 4lbs oats, 6lbs alfalfa pellets, 1lb Renew Gold, flax supplement, a couple handfuls soaked beet pulp, and unlimited grass hay. I'm down to one horse but this hasn't made him hot and he is really filled out and shiny like a new penny even though it's cold and snowy here and the other horses look like fluff monsters. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| go moderate protein, high fat and low starch. Probiotics and digestive enzymes to make sure the horse is absorbing everything like it should. |
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 Expert
Posts: 5290
| RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-17 10:54 AM
go moderate protein, high fat and low starch. Probiotics and digestive enzymes to make sure the horse is absorbing everything like it should.
We are finding now that there is an over use of Pre and Pro biotics. Its actually doing the opposite they are designed for. Horses should be getting all their live gut bacteria from the natural foods they eat. All of the added ones in commercial feeds are leading to bacterial over growth and uneven bacterial species populations in the hind gut. This leads to inflammation. Inflammation leads to lameness issues, allergies, immune system and digestive issues.
Edited by FLITASTIC 2015-12-17 1:51 PM
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
Location: Alberta | What is the horse eating now AND since you said adult beginner, which I assume new to horse care as well, is horse getting feed enough of current feed stuff?
Is the horse aged?
teeth good?
just some thoughts....
Edited by dream_chaser 2015-12-17 3:11 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | FLITASTIC - 2015-12-17 1:49 PM
RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-17 10:54 AM
go moderate protein, high fat and low starch. Probiotics and digestive enzymes to make sure the horse is absorbing everything like it should.
We are finding now that there is an over use of Pre and Pro biotics. Its actually doing the opposite they are designed for. Horses should be getting all their live gut bacteria from the natural foods they eat. All of the added ones in commercial feeds are leading to bacterial over growth and uneven bacterial species populations in the hind gut. This leads to inflammation. Inflammation leads to lameness issues, allergies, immune system and digestive issues.
You are right on this. I often tell people that the best result is not from adding more bacteria to the hind gut. The best result is to quit killing the naturally occurring ones that are there. Most probiotics do not provide much in the way of viable beneficial bacteria that actually make it to the hind gut in the first place. Those that do make it are not the right ones in the right ratios in which they naturally are found. I use a prebiotic to support existing natural ratios, and personally feel that this is a better solution. There can be a place for a probiotic to be used short term after surgery, colic, or other major disruption to the hind gut. In this case, even a little help may aid in jump starting the system. On a daily basis, however, if you need to keep reintroducing bacteria to get the hind gut to work, you have serious disruption that needs to be fixed with better feed management. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1261
| I have my hard keeper on LMF super supplement, rice bran pellets, alf pellets and chia seeds. She looks better than ever and I have tried one thing after another before but every winter no matter what she was dropping weight horribly. She looks great now and she is pregnant even. But she's also on a few acres of grass so she does graze all day as well. She is a retired barrel horse but my barrel horse eats the same thing. Neither is hot the higher fat actually helps keep them mellow. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | If owner is beginner keep it simple .. I bet half the stuff owner hasnt even heard of.lol whats she feeding now and how much ?
Look for a high fat grain or a clean grain and add fat.. flax, cool calories etc.. even soaked beet pulp .. |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Cowgirl Kat - 2015-12-17 9:27 AM I would try some Muscle Mass, I have used it mutiple times on horses without them getting hot.
I've really gotten away from grain myself. Since I feed THE MM, I need something to mix it in though so I started to feed soaked alfalfa/beet pellets soaked. It is amazing the weight they will put on with this mix and then THE just adds the bloom and fills them out. No chance of getting hot. No worry about monosin poison and no synthetics. |
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Regular
Posts: 79
| Nothing but Renew Gold, and excellent quality hay :) |
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 Veteran
Posts: 255
Location: Where Tall Corn Grows | I have a coming 20 year old hard keeper and was just about to give up on her. I started feeding 1lb of Renew Gold with 1lb of whole oats (to get her to eat the RG), I break it into 2 feedings a day. She is a very picky eater. Along with quality alfalfa hay. Her teeth are floated every year. It took a while but she hasn't looked this good since she was a youngster. She is very high energy all the time, she won't stand still, just long enough to get a bite and she's moving. She's high energy but never "hot" She runs just as hard as she always has and is still a top contender. I feel this is one of the simplest/economical feeding programs I've ever had the horses on. The other horses have bloomed as well. My biggest challenge is getting the Renew Gold ordered. It's a special order each time and I'm limited as where I can purchase it. It's well worth it in my opinion.
Edited by Chicken Fried 2015-12-18 12:15 PM
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... |
I prefer a small amount of a high fat grain or supplement to go along with a good quality hay. There are lots of good ones to pick from. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Alfalfa and renew gold. Look for high fat, low sugar/starch feeds. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | rockinas - 2015-12-18 7:25 PM
I prefer a small amount of a high fat grain or supplement to go along with a good quality hay. There are lots of good ones to pick from.
I agree.. and its simple |
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7615
Location: Dubach, LA | cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-17 12:47 PM
Well personally I've fed oats to 3 horses of varying temperments (including VERY VERY high strung) and it's never made any of them hot in the slightest. My current program is 4lbs oats, 6lbs alfalfa pellets, 1lb Renew Gold, flax supplement, a couple handfuls soaked beet pulp, and unlimited grass hay. I'm down to one horse but this hasn't made him hot and he is really filled out and shiny like a new penny even though it's cold and snowy here and the other horses look like fluff monsters.
You got to be kidding!!!!! I have two on 3 cups of RG a day. They are tubby. Old man gets a coffee can of SC twice a day. I never realized how much some people fed. |
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Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | CanCan - 2015-12-18 5:09 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-17 12:47 PM Well personally I've fed oats to 3 horses of varying temperments (including VERY VERY high strung) and it's never made any of them hot in the slightest. My current program is 4lbs oats, 6lbs alfalfa pellets, 1lb Renew Gold, flax supplement, a couple handfuls soaked beet pulp, and unlimited grass hay. I'm down to one horse but this hasn't made him hot and he is really filled out and shiny like a new penny even though it's cold and snowy here and the other horses look like fluff monsters. You got to be kidding!!!!! I have two on 3 cups of RG a day. They are tubby. Old man gets a coffee can of SC twice a day. I never realized how much some people fed.
Mine got tubby on HALF lb RG (1.5 cups)! |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | hammer_time - 2015-12-19 8:31 AM CanCan - 2015-12-18 5:09 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2015-12-17 12:47 PM Well personally I've fed oats to 3 horses of varying temperments (including VERY VERY high strung) and it's never made any of them hot in the slightest. My current program is 4lbs oats, 6lbs alfalfa pellets, 1lb Renew Gold, flax supplement, a couple handfuls soaked beet pulp, and unlimited grass hay. I'm down to one horse but this hasn't made him hot and he is really filled out and shiny like a new penny even though it's cold and snowy here and the other horses look like fluff monsters. You got to be kidding!!!!! I have two on 3 cups of RG a day. They are tubby. Old man gets a coffee can of SC twice a day. I never realized how much some people fed. Mine got tubby on HALF lb RG (1.5 cups )!
I didn't think I fed that much... Especially considering Cash is a BIG guy and is ridden consistently year round. And he lives in a dry lot so doesn't get to graze at all. But this is working for him. He looks and feels amazing. |
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| winwillows - 2015-12-17 4:05 PM
FLITASTIC - 2015-12-17 1:49 PM
RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-17 10:54 AM
go moderate protein, high fat and low starch. Probiotics and digestive enzymes to make sure the horse is absorbing everything like it should.
We are finding now that there is an over use of Pre and Pro biotics. Its actually doing the opposite they are designed for. Horses should be getting all their live gut bacteria from the natural foods they eat. All of the added ones in commercial feeds are leading to bacterial over growth and uneven bacterial species populations in the hind gut. This leads to inflammation. Inflammation leads to lameness issues, allergies, immune system and digestive issues.
You are right on this. I often tell people that the best result is not from adding more bacteria to the hind gut. The best result is to quit killing the naturally occurring ones that are there. Most probiotics do not provide much in the way of viable beneficial bacteria that actually make it to the hind gut in the first place. Those that do make it are not the right ones in the right ratios in which they naturally are found. I use a prebiotic to support existing natural ratios, and personally feel that this is a better solution. There can be a place for a probiotic to be used short term after surgery, colic, or other major disruption to the hind gut. In this case, even a little help may aid in jump starting the system. On a daily basis, however, if you need to keep reintroducing bacteria to get the hind gut to work, you have serious disruption that needs to be fixed with better feed management.
So what is a good PRE biotic? I've been feeding fastrack to my horses I believe that's just a probiotic though. |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | A lot of hard keepers won't eat enough of even the best hay to stay fat. So feeding straight hay may not be an option. Too, a lot of hard keepers are picky eaters so you have to go with what they'll eat, not necessarily what you think they have to have. My old appendix horse & the OTTB that I have now are true examples of that!
Vets will tell you that beet pulp does not make a horse hot but every horse I've had on even a little bit of it have been hot. I have a friend who has trained some of the best horses in the country and he finally decided to try it to stretch his hay -- I'd been telling him for years, lol -- and he noticed a difference right away too.
I tried putting the OTTB that I have on low starch because of his enery levels, and ulcers. He wouldn't stay on it. I've found some horses can't tolerate premix feeds, or beet pulp (non molassas included) , or molassas so I put him on straight oats & barley. He's flourished on it. He gets whole oats, a small amount of rolled barley, plain rice bran, Remission (supplement with magnesium, etc) a little bit of Chaffhaye, 3 pounds of alfalfa, and all the grass hay he'll eat. He's a rehab project that had a lot of interest from a couple of top sponsored event riders but he was too hot and sensitive.... The picture below is him yesterday afternoon when I rode him bareback with a rope halter in the round pen.
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | want2chase3 - 2015-12-20 12:00 PM
winwillows - 2015-12-17 4:05 PM
FLITASTIC - 2015-12-17 1:49 PM
RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-17 10:54 AM
go moderate protein, high fat and low starch. Probiotics and digestive enzymes to make sure the horse is absorbing everything like it should.
We are finding now that there is an over use of Pre and Pro biotics. Its actually doing the opposite they are designed for. Horses should be getting all their live gut bacteria from the natural foods they eat. All of the added ones in commercial feeds are leading to bacterial over growth and uneven bacterial species populations in the hind gut. This leads to inflammation. Inflammation leads to lameness issues, allergies, immune system and digestive issues.
You are right on this. I often tell people that the best result is not from adding more bacteria to the hind gut. The best result is to quit killing the naturally occurring ones that are there. Most probiotics do not provide much in the way of viable beneficial bacteria that actually make it to the hind gut in the first place. Those that do make it are not the right ones in the right ratios in which they naturally are found. I use a prebiotic to support existing natural ratios, and personally feel that this is a better solution. There can be a place for a probiotic to be used short term after surgery, colic, or other major disruption to the hind gut. In this case, even a little help may aid in jump starting the system. On a daily basis, however, if you need to keep reintroducing bacteria to get the hind gut to work, you have serious disruption that needs to be fixed with better feed management.
So what is a good PRE biotic? I've been feeding fastrack to my horses I believe that's just a probiotic though.
We include a proprietary prebiotic in Renew Gold. If you are looking for one to add to your current program the easiest one to get would be FORCO. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I Personally dont use beet pulp to stretch hay.. I feed it to put more fluid in gut and it helps keep digestive system clean.. I have used it also to feed to hard keepers and older horses.. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
Location: Missouri | we have a hard keeper and last year he got pretty stressed and was moved and did not take the move well at all.....so he looked like crap! ... we put him on safe choice Senior (he is a 7 year old), started him on Animal Element detox and he was on really good pasture 24/7. after about 6 weeks he had but on so much wiehgt and muscle I had to decrease his feed. I really think one the Animal Element cleaned his gut and then he was able to absorb what he needed. I am hoping he will not be the hard keeper we thought he was! It has been about 5 months and he still looks and feels great! |
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Location: Great Places Great Faces | Renew gold has been a blessing for my hot yet hard to keep weight on mare
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| another has been - 2015-12-21 2:54 PM
we have a hard keeper and last year he got pretty stressed and was moved and did not take the move well at all.....so he looked like crap! ... we put him on safe choice Senior (he is a 7 year old), started him on Animal Element detox and he was on really good pasture 24/7. after about 6 weeks he had but on so much wiehgt and muscle I had to decrease his feed. I really think one the Animal Element cleaned his gut and then he was able to absorb what he needed. I am hoping he will not be the hard keeper we thought he was! It has been about 5 months and he still looks and feels great!
that has been my experience when I fed AE also. |
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Duct Tape Bikini Girl
Posts: 2554
| Straight alfalfa |
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