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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
    
Location: Georgia |
Ok guys need some help trying to figure out what is going on with my 21 year old gelding. On Friday night he wouldn't eat his feed. Was not even the slightest bit interested. And let me tell you that this horse only thinks about food, so that was a very big red flag. We immediately checked vital signs and the only thing off was his temp, which was slightly high. This was accompanied with some swelling around his sheath area. Gave him some banamine to make him more comfortable and let him be for the night. Fast forward to the next morning, still not feeling good so we called the vet out. She wasn't too worried but pulled blood and said to start him on banamine twice a day to control fever and keep comfortable. Her diagnosis was something viral that was causing his stomach lining to become inflamed...hence the swelling. All blood work came back normal.
So over the past few days we have been watching him and checking temp several times a day. Swelling has not gone down but is moving toward his chest. Last night his temp was normal so we decided to skip the morning dose of banamine but tonight his temp was up to 103, which is the highest it has been. We are at a loss. Vet is still not terribly concerned. He is an older horse so maybe just having a hard time fighting the infection off. I'm just hoping it's not something more serious. The belly swelling really has me concerned. Have any of you seen or dealt with anything like this? I'm going to try to attach pics from my phone....
Edited by Runninbay 2016-02-08 9:01 PM
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | If I were your vet I sure would be concerned.have any equine hospitals near you? Prayers for your horse |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | with a fever Id be concerned appears to be a infection.. there are weeds that cause edema but Id be heading to a large equine hospital.. |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Friend of mine had something similar in a horse of hers. His edema spread all through his belly and chest. Temp as well. They never got a definite diagnosis but he spent several weeks at the university of Ga and foundered pretty severely as a side effect. They guessed that it was an intestinal infection as well. He would eat wood and I wondered if maybe he got a splinter in his gut or something like that. Nothing to mess around with, especially with a temp. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
The vet facility that we are using has always done good by us and have always told us to go to a university if they thought it was necessary. Im not saying this isn't the case here, but they are normally very quick to tell us when we need to get a lager facility's assistance but they don't feel that is necessary as of now. I am hoping we don't regret this decision. The temp and the swelling definitely concerns me. I've owned this gelding for 16 years and he has only been sick a few times. I hope it doesn't come to us having to take him elsewhere, but if that becomes the situation we will certainly do it. I was just posting here to maybe get some better ideas of what exactly is going on. So many people on here I figure someone might have some experience with this. |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | oh good glad you have faith in them.. the temp concerns me but it may be a virus .. sometimes weeds can cause the sheath to swell but never have seen the stomach muscles swell.. its Ventral edema , fluids pool to that area..several easons why.. hope he is better soon..did you all check for beans? |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | When was the last time this horse had a coggins test? Please do so asap!!! Hate to say it and not to be a alarmest but the symptoms are classic AND there have been numerous positive tests this last year. When your vet ran blood was it just to check levels or did they send it off testing for virus's? There are a few different viris's that present just like this so I'd sure be on top of it and get more blood ran checking for viris. Does the horse have diahrea? After loosing a very healthy 6 year old this fall to a sudden illness that started just as reduced appetite and fever and 2 days later in the hospital it's better to be safe then sorry. |
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 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| What are his stools like? |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | ThreeCorners - 2015-12-23 7:43 AM When was the last time this horse had a coggins test? Please do so asap!!! Hate to say it and not to be a alarmest but the symptoms are classic AND there have been numerous positive tests this last year. When your vet ran blood was it just to check levels or did they send it off testing for virus's? There are a few different viris's that present just like this so I'd sure be on top of it and get more blood ran checking for viris. Does the horse have diahrea? After loosing a very healthy 6 year old this fall to a sudden illness that started just as reduced appetite and fever and 2 days later in the hospital it's better to be safe then sorry.
I have considered this because when I was researching, he does display some of the symptoms of EIA. But he got his coggins done in October. He gets vaccinated twice a year with the 6-way as well. His stools seem to be normal. Not runny at all. His temp this morning was 99.4. We gave hime 10cc banamine last night around 9 PM. We are going to recheck him when I get off work at 4 PM.
Edited by Runninbay 2015-12-23 8:40 AM
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Hows your boy tonight? |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Checking in on him tonight. . . |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Runninbay - 2015-12-23 8:39 AM
ThreeCorners - 2015-12-23 7:43 AM When was the last time this horse had a coggins test? Please do so asap!!! Hate to say it and not to be a alarmest but the symptoms are classic AND there have been numerous positive tests this last year. When your vet ran blood was it just to check levels or did they send it off testing for virus's? There are a few different viris's that present just like this so I'd sure be on top of it and get more blood ran checking for viris. Does the horse have diahrea? After loosing a very healthy 6 year old this fall to a sudden illness that started just as reduced appetite and fever and 2 days later in the hospital it's better to be safe then sorry. I have considered this because when I was researching, he does display some of the symptoms of EIA. But he got his coggins done in October. He gets vaccinated twice a year with the 6-way as well. His stools seem to be normal. Not runny at all. His temp this morning was 99.4. We gave hime 10cc banamine last night around 9 PM. We are going to recheck him when I get off work at 4 PM.
All the coggins proves is the horse did not have the disease that day, he could have contracted it the next day, etc.
In your area have you had excess moisture lately, do you live in swamp land, how are the bugs, do you still have some, or non at all. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | My boy started out looking like this with fever and it moved up to his chest, he had Pigeon fever.. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Is there heat on the swelling areas? |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Thanks for checking on him guys! He is doing about the same today. Not better, but not necessarily worse. We had the vet come out again this afternoon. She pulled more blood just to compare with the first sample. Everything seems the same (normal) except now his white blood cell count is in the normal-high range. Not 100% what that change means. We have started him on antibiotics. The vet said if we don't see a change by Friday she wants us to bring him into the clinic for an ultrasound to see if he has any internal abscesses. His fever remained relatively normal today. It was 99.4 this morning and then 100.3 at feeding time this evening. We will be rechecking him in about her hour to see if he will need a dose of banamine to get though the night.
Southtxponygirl....I read you post and immediately researched Pigeon Fever. Honesty he is displaying most of the symptoms described. How was your boy diagnosed and what was the treatment process?
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-23 9:57 PM Is there heat on the swelling areas?
Meant to address this in my last post, but there is definite heat in the area around his sheath. And it makes him uncomfortable when we touch that area. I'm sure due to the stretching of the skin. The ventral swelling doesn't feel overly warm. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-23 9:47 PM
Thanks for checking on him guys! He is doing about the same today. Not better, but not necessarily worse. We had the vet come out again this afternoon. She pulled more blood just to compare with the first sample. Everything seems the same (normal) except now his white blood cell count is in the normal-high range. Not 100% what that change means. We have started him on antibiotics. The vet said if we don't see a change by Friday she wants us to bring him into the clinic for an ultrasound to see if he has any internal abscesses. His fever remained relatively normal today. It was 99.4 this morning and then 100.3 at feeding time this evening. We will be rechecking him in about her hour to see if he will need a dose of banamine to get though the night.
Southtxponygirl....I read you post and immediately researched Pigeon Fever. Honesty he is displaying most of the symptoms described. How was your boy diagnosed and what was the treatment process?
There were out breaks that summer here in South Texas, Im thinking it was in 08 maybe 09 cant remember, but he was the only one out of my 4 horses up here at the house that got it, nobody else came down with it thank goodness, I was talking back and froth with my vet at Retama, I knew what to look for cause I have seen other horses with it, I took him in once to have it looked at, but my Vet wanted to wait another week for it to be full blown, my horses chest area fill with pus and then he lance it to drain it. Ask your vet to see if they have any cases in your area. The only time its contiguous is when the area burst open and the other horses come in contact with the pus, I have no ideal how my horse got this mess. So if it is Pigeon Fever, you need to wait it out and then have the area drained.
But talked to your Vet tomorrow and ask to see if its possibe it could be this. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | My horses chest got really swollen and tight and lots of heat, the swelling started were your boy is swollen and it just traveled between his legs and up his chest. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-23 11:04 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-23 9:47 PM
Thanks for checking on him guys! He is doing about the same today. Not better, but not necessarily worse. We had the vet come out again this afternoon. She pulled more blood just to compare with the first sample. Everything seems the same (normal) except now his white blood cell count is in the normal-high range. Not 100% what that change means. We have started him on antibiotics. The vet said if we don't see a change by Friday she wants us to bring him into the clinic for an ultrasound to see if he has any internal abscesses. His fever remained relatively normal today. It was 99.4 this morning and then 100.3 at feeding time this evening. We will be rechecking him in about her hour to see if he will need a dose of banamine to get though the night.
Southtxponygirl....I read you post and immediately researched Pigeon Fever. Honesty he is displaying most of the symptoms described. How was your boy diagnosed and what was the treatment process?
There were out breaks that summer here in South Texas, Im thinking it was in 08 maybe 09 cant remember, but he was the only one out of my 4 horses up here at the house that got it, nobody else came down with it thank goodness, I was talking back and froth with my vet at Retama, I knew what to look for cause I have seen other horses with it, I took him in once to have it looked at, but my Vet wanted to wait another week for it to be full blown, my horses chest area fill with pus and then he lance it to drain it. Ask your vet to see if they have any cases in your area. The only time its contiguous is when the area burst open and the other horses come in contact with the pus, I have no ideal how my horse got this mess. So if it is Pigeon Fever, you need to wait it out and then have the area drained.
But talked to your Vet tomorrow and ask to see if its possibe it could be this.
This makes me feel slightly better. This gelding has been pastured with my yearling and I've been on edge keeping a good eye on her. I'm praying whatever it is, stays away from my other horses. So you just had the area lanced then drained? Did you have to keep the horse on antibiotics until the infection cleared out completely? We took his temp tonight and it was 99.7. So im hoping we have the fever under control. He is a big horse that already has some laminitis issues so that last thing we need right now is any cause for him to founder. The belly swelling seems to be steadily moving forward.
Edited by Runninbay 2015-12-23 10:21 PM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-23 10:20 PM Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-23 11:04 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-23 9:47 PM
Thanks for checking on him guys! He is doing about the same today. Not better, but not necessarily worse. We had the vet come out again this afternoon. She pulled more blood just to compare with the first sample. Everything seems the same (normal) except now his white blood cell count is in the normal-high range. Not 100% what that change means. We have started him on antibiotics. The vet said if we don't see a change by Friday she wants us to bring him into the clinic for an ultrasound to see if he has any internal abscesses. His fever remained relatively normal today. It was 99.4 this morning and then 100.3 at feeding time this evening. We will be rechecking him in about her hour to see if he will need a dose of banamine to get though the night.
Southtxponygirl....I read you post and immediately researched Pigeon Fever. Honesty he is displaying most of the symptoms described. How was your boy diagnosed and what was the treatment process?
There were out breaks that summer here in South Texas, Im thinking it was in 08 maybe 09 cant remember, but he was the only one out of my 4 horses up here at the house that got it, nobody else came down with it thank goodness, I was talking back and froth with my vet at Retama, I knew what to look for cause I have seen other horses with it, I took him in once to have it looked at, but my Vet wanted to wait another week for it to be full blown, my horses chest area fill with pus and then he lance it to drain it. Ask your vet to see if they have any cases in your area. The only time its contiguous is when the area burst open and the other horses come in contact with the pus, I have no ideal how my horse got this mess. So if it is Pigeon Fever, you need to wait it out and then have the area drained.
But talked to your Vet tomorrow and ask to see if its possibe it could be this.
You know its been so long ago I cant remember if we put him on antibiotics or not, I need to try and find my vet bill and see, but I'm pretty sure we did. Yep my vet walked my boy a ways away from the stalls and office and we stood under a tree and he lanced it and drained all the pus out, didnt want that nasty stuff around the barn. But I will try to find my bill and see whats on it. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Pming you.. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-23 11:42 PM Pming you..
Thank you very much! I really appreciate all this info. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-23 10:48 PM Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-23 11:42 PM Pming you..
Thank you very much! I really appreciate all this info.
I hope that I could help you out.. |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Flys will transmit pigeon fever. They land on one horse who has it, flys to the next horse and transmits it. It is a summer time desease though and unless it's been really warm and dry where you are and still have flys I wouldnt think thats what you have. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | ThreeCorners - 2015-12-24 6:21 AM Flys will transmit pigeon fever. They land on one horse who has it, flys to the next horse and transmits it. It is a summer time desease though and unless it's been really warm and dry where you are and still have flys I wouldnt think thats what you have.
It's been a very warm fall here. For example, today the high is 75 and tomorrow is 80. But it really hasn't been all that wet aside from the past few days of heavy rain. But it hasn't been dry either. The flies were very bad this year though. So I probably wouldn't rule it out.
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 JMHO
Posts: 1869
Location: Oklahoma | ThreeCorners - 2015-12-24 5:21 AM Flys will transmit pigeon fever. They land on one horse who has it, flys to the next horse and transmits it. It is a summer time desease though and unless it's been really warm and dry where you are and still have flys I wouldnt think thats what you have.
This is what I was thinking. My gelding got it in Jan a few years back out here in Oklahoma. It started out a lot like this horse.
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay how is your boy doing today? Been thinking about him. Hope that hes feeling better. |
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Location: texas | my gelding did that a few days after getting th west nile shot. i never gave it again after that. my thoughts are pigdeon fever too but I thought antibiotics drove the infection inward and it was best to let it come out of the body. im not really too informed but just what I remember hearing |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Hey guys, sorry it's been a few days since I've posted. The vet had us start him on an oral antibiotic on Wednesday. Then, after seeing no improvement from that, we administered an injectable antibiotic yesterday (Friday) morning. I forget the name of it but it was thick with a creamy color. It was not penicillin. We are supposed to give another dose on Tuesday. However, I think if we don't see any improvement by Monday we are going to request an ultrasound before giving the second shot. We have mentioned pigeon fever to our vet but she just doesn't believe that's what it is. I'm still not convinced. The top of the swelling is now between his front legs. So needless to say, it is moving pretty rapidly. Good news is that he continues to eat and behave normally. He seems alert and active. His temp seems to be under control now. Doesn't seem depressed or sluggish. I'm just hoping something gives soon and we will have an answer for all of this. I'm going to take some updated pictures tomorrow and post them here. Thank you to those who have pmed me with your personal experiences with this! They have been very helpful. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Thamks for the update.continued prayers. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| hope he's doing well. It sounds like they gave you exceed. Its thicker than pen and you give the 2nd dose 4? days after the 1st. I'm wondering about pigeon fever also.. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Runninbay - 2015-12-26 11:44 PM Hey guys, sorry it's been a few days since I've posted. The vet had us start him on an oral antibiotic on Wednesday. Then, after seeing no improvement from that, we administered an injectable antibiotic yesterday (Friday) morning. I forget the name of it but it was thick with a creamy color. It was not penicillin. We are supposed to give another dose on Tuesday. However, I think if we don't see any improvement by Monday we are going to request an ultrasound before giving the second shot. We have mentioned pigeon fever to our vet but she just doesn't believe that's what it is. I'm still not convinced. The top of the swelling is now between his front legs. So needless to say, it is moving pretty rapidly. Good news is that he continues to eat and behave normally. He seems alert and active. His temp seems to be under control now. Doesn't seem depressed or sluggish. I'm just hoping something gives soon and we will have an answer for all of this. I'm going to take some updated pictures tomorrow and post them here. Thank you to those who have pmed me with your personal experiences with this! They have been very helpful.
Been thinking alot about your boy. Continued prayers.
Any update? |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-28 7:38 AM hope he's doing well. It sounds like they gave you exceed. Its thicker than pen and you give the 2nd dose 4? days after the 1st. I'm wondering about pigeon fever also..
Yes! I found the label in the trash and it was Excede. Talk about expensive...sheesh. But if its works, its worth it. I haven't looked at him today because I had to leave early for work. But my mom went over and checked on him this morning and all is well. She did say he looks less alert today. I'm sure he is just getting real tired of us poking him and putting stuff in his mouth. I got pictures last night but it's hard to tell anything. I'm going to try to post a few though. Last night the swelling between his legs didnt look as if it had progressed any, so I pray maybe something is working.
Edited by Runninbay 2015-12-28 2:29 PM
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Edited by Runninbay 2015-12-28 2:38 PM
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 I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | I'm with SouthTexasPonyGirl on the Pigeon Fever. I had 3 out of 11 get it here. 2 got it one summer and the 3rd the following summer about 3 years ago. None are pastured together either which is weird how they contracted it, but their pasture mates didn't. At any rate, the 2 mares popped on their own and drained easily. Theirs was confined to their belly. We had them on antibiotics and kept the drain area clean. My poor gelding suffered. It moved all over his body starting in his sheath, to his stomach, legs and probably lasted 3 weeks or longer. It finally blew out on his chest and he still has a scar. We hauled him to the vet several times, but he was never at a point where they could lance it. He was on antibiotics as well, and my husband rubbed the swollen areas down with DMSO.
I wish you luck. The upside to pigeon fever is once they get it, they can't contract it again.
ETA: We also would put hot compresses on the area 2x a day to help draw the pus out before rubbing the DMSO. I honestly don't know if this helped him or not, but it made us feel better. Ha-ha!
Edited by sophiebelle 2015-12-28 5:36 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Before anymore antibiotics, I would get a vet to lance it, send a culture away, then flush 40 litres of salane through another incision to get the pus out of his system.
Right now the dead tissue, infection has nowhere to go, the poor horse cannot absorb all of that, he needs a drain put in |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Holy wow that looks really painful, so what is the Vet saying now to all that swelling? And did you get my PM, just wondering. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-28 7:32 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Holy wow that looks really painful, so what is the Vet saying now to all that swelling? And did you get my PM, just wondering.
Yes I did! I'm sorry, I just realized I never replied. Right after I got it I went to googling a million different things lol. My vet thinks that because his fever has become more stable, that the antibiotics are having an effect. For those of you that have dealt with pf, did your horses have a fever until it drained out? The vet is really urging us to give him the second dose of Excede and go from there. So as of now, he is getting the shot tomorrow. I have mentioned getting a culture of the fluid in the pockets but she said its only edema. She doesn't believe there is any pus in the pockets at all so there would be nothing to culture in her professional opinion. She is a good vet and I'm trusting her to take us down the right path. What would you guys do if this was your horse?
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-28 6:49 PM Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-28 7:32 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Holy wow that looks really painful, so what is the Vet saying now to all that swelling? And did you get my PM, just wondering.
I understand that you trust your Vet, but if this was my horse I would want at least a second opinion befor I pumped any more meds into him. Poor guy this has got to be so painful for him. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Runninbay - 2015-12-28 6:49 PM
Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-28 7:32 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Holy wow that looks really painful, so what is the Vet saying now to all that swelling? And did you get my PM, just wondering.
Has she ultrasounded the abscess? If not she cannot say it is just edema, and isn't competent.
Pigeon fever is a sister to strangles, both strep infections.
In both my vet texts it says it needs to be lanced, and it is highly contagious so the horse must be isolated from others once the disease begins to shed, runny nose, or drainage.
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Im with cheryl n roxi. Horse needs to be isolated and lanced. We all want to have the ut most faith in our vets....but everybody makes mistakes and mis diagnosis at one time or another. Nobody is perfect. For the sake of your boy...move forward
Edited by jake16 2015-12-28 7:10 PM
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I Am Always Right
Posts: 4264
Location: stray dump capital of the world | When my horses had PF, I consulted 2 different vets before proceeding with anything. I had never dealt with it before, nor heard of it. My regular vet was out of town, so I used a different vet and then followed up with Retama for a second opinion. Both vets told me that the PF would find a path out without lancing. The mares ruptured on their own and the gelding was never in a place where they felt comfortable lancing, and he eventually ruptured on his own. The gelding had 2 doses of Excede. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I have a question for you guys that say lance it. First off, will the vet be able to tell on the ultrasound if it is pus? And say we dont do an ultrasound and we get the vet to lance it, what happens if its not pus? And then we just have a wound to deal with on top of whatever is causing all this. I really just need to be educated on what else could be in the pockets if its not PF.....
Also, if the fever has subsided with anitbiotics, could it still be PF? |
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 Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | It's edema, please do not lance it. Stay the course, the antibiotic is doing what it needs to do. Hang in there! |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Hmmmm I have nothing to add but prayers and hope it all works out. I would think you would want it to let it burst on its own.....I'm thinking of human pimples when I think about this....you don't want to force popping a zit. Would you want to force this? Random thought! Keeps updated! I'm curious to see what happens. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I would not lance it, I would be wanting a second opinion from a different Vet at this point to rule out pigeon fever, all that swelling would worry the heck out of me and going on a week I would think the swelling would be going down with the meds that hes getting by now. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Runninbay - 2015-12-28 9:58 PM
I have a question for you guys that say lance it. First off, will the vet be able to tell on the ultrasound if it is pus? And say we dont do an ultrasound and we get the vet to lance it, what happens if its not pus? And then we just have a wound to deal with on top of whatever is causing all this. I really just need to be educated on what else could be in the pockets if its not PF.....
Also, if the fever has subsided with anitbiotics, could it still be PF?
A competent vet can tell by ultrasound if the lump is edema, or if it is fluid filled.
A competent vet will not lance it without doing an ultrasound as it would cause unnecessary trauma, the incision will be more inclined to become infected, and take more time to heal as the area is already compromised.
As for what could be in the abscess if it is fluid filled, it could be any bacteria.
Botulism
Strep
Staph
The only way to know is to do a culture
He could have gotten a piece of straw, a stick, anything so small puncture through the skin and you may not have known as it may not have left a mark which then cause an infection
Edited by cheryl makofka 2015-12-28 10:35 PM
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
I'm going to talk to my vet again in the morning and pick her brain about options. I'm betting she will want stick with the original plan of giving the second dose of Excede and go from there. Thank you guys for all the input so far. I really appreciate those of you who have gotten involved with this thread and trying to help me find a solution. I just really want my boy to be happy and healthy again. I will update tomorrow. And of course its raining here again, so another few days of nasty weather seem to be headed our way. Oh what fun..... Night all! |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| justcruzin - 2015-12-28 10:46 PM
It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on.
Every horse owner should be challenging their vet.
It is the horse owners responsibility to make educated decisions.
I do believe this vet is incompetent as the vet made a diagnosis without objective data to support their diagnosis. It is like your human doctor telling you you have AIDS because you have one symptom, I bet you would challenge your docs diagnosis and treatment plan if you had a serious diagnosis without the objective data.
The most important question a horse owner needs to ask is WHY.
Questions I ask my vet on anything and I suggest all horse owners do the same thing
What is the diagnosis
Where is the evidence to support the diagnosis
Is there any other information you should acquire to verify the diagnosis (xray, ultrasound, blood work, if not already been done)
Prognosis if I do nothing
Suggested treatment plan where is the research to support this plan pros and cons
The goals of the procedure
Projected healing time
Any additional treatment options pros and cons
Quality of life afterwards (rideable, maintaince, competitive, timeline)
I have found if I spend the money the first time, I am not paying the exam fees over and over on top of each additional test, and I save money and time in the long run. |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | cheryl makofka - 2015-12-28 9:10 PM justcruzin - 2015-12-28 10:46 PM It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on. Every horse owner should be challenging their vet. It is the horse owners responsibility to make educated decisions. I do believe this vet is incompetent as the vet made a diagnosis without objective data to support their diagnosis. It is like your human doctor telling you you have AIDS because you have one symptom, I bet you would challenge your docs diagnosis and treatment plan if you had a serious diagnosis without the objective data. The most important question a horse owner needs to ask is WHY. Questions I ask my vet on anything and I suggest all horse owners do the same thing What is the diagnosis Where is the evidence to support the diagnosis Is there any other information you should acquire to verify the diagnosis (xray, ultrasound, blood work, if not already been done ) Prognosis if I do nothing Suggested treatment plan where is the research to support this plan pros and cons The goals of the procedure Projected healing time Any additional treatment options pros and cons Quality of life afterwards (rideable, maintaince, competitive, timeline ) I have found if I spend the money the first time, I am not paying the exam fees over and over on top of each additional test, and I save money and time in the long run.
Edited by justcruzin 2015-12-29 12:29 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 399
| Colorado State University School of Veterinary Medicine has done the most research on dryland distemper, corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis infection commonly known as pigeon fever. It usually manifests in the ventral abdominal area seen in the pictures and is most common in the pectorial area giving it the name pigeon fever because of its resemblance to a pigeon chest. Lymphangitis and internal infection should be treated with longterm antimicrobials (1 mo duration or as directed by follow-up ultrasonography). The organism is susceptible to most commonly administered antimicrobials; HOWEVER, antimicrobial treatment of uncomplicated external abscesses may prolong the disease by delaying abscess maturation. External abscess swellings are treated with hot packs, poultices, or hydrotherapy until they rupture or drained surgically is severe dire cases.So what the internal specialists at CSU advised my veterinarian when my mare had dryland distemper was to let the abscesses come to a head, rupture then flush out the abscesses with a mild diluted antimicrobial solution then start the course of antibiotics. The majority of information pertaining to manifestation of distemper related abscesses is the same as mentioned above. The horse stands a good chance of recurrence of the infection if it is not allowed to manifest and run its course. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| justcruzin - 2015-12-29 12:26 AM
cheryl makofka - 2015-12-28 9:10 PM justcruzin - 2015-12-28 10:46 PM It's called ventral edema, this horse probably has an abcess, the antibotic's are working. I can't believe people challenge the Vet and dang near call him/her incompetent! I'll bet a 6 pack it's not pigeon fever, there is no puss, nothing to lance. The body will absorb the fluid, if it's slow going your vet can prescribe lasix to help the kidneys flush it. IMO your vet is right on. Every horse owner should be challenging their vet. It is the horse owners responsibility to make educated decisions. I do believe this vet is incompetent as the vet made a diagnosis without objective data to support their diagnosis. It is like your human doctor telling you you have AIDS because you have one symptom, I bet you would challenge your docs diagnosis and treatment plan if you had a serious diagnosis without the objective data. The most important question a horse owner needs to ask is WHY. Questions I ask my vet on anything and I suggest all horse owners do the same thing What is the diagnosis Where is the evidence to support the diagnosis Is there any other information you should acquire to verify the diagnosis (xray, ultrasound, blood work, if not already been done ) Prognosis if I do nothing Suggested treatment plan where is the research to support this plan pros and cons The goals of the procedure Projected healing time Any additional treatment options pros and cons Quality of life afterwards (rideable, maintaince, competitive, timeline ) I have found if I spend the money the first time, I am not paying the exam fees over and over on top of each additional test, and I save money and time in the long run. There is nothing wrong with staying informed, questioning the diagnosis, prognosis, doing research or getting a second opinion. But to challenge and accuse the Vet of being incompetent is not justified in this case. You know as well as I do sometimes you just can't get an accurate diagnosis (for what ever reason ) and go with what is working. Your advise to lance, culture and insert drains was way off base in this instance. My guess is this horse has an bacterial infection, hence the elevated white count and fever and is responding to antibiotic therapy. If this was my horse I would stay the course. If the horse was not responding, then I would look at a second opinion. The Vet is spot on with the treatment of choice. Excede is a broad spectrum, gram pos and gram neg antibiotic, IMO a good choice. Neither you nor I were there and have access to bloodwork or exam. I support the TX the Vet prescribed. If I'm wrong, I owe someone a 6 pack.
Why I am saying the vet is incompetent is if the vet says the lump is edema and has not done an ultrasound, which it sounds like one has not been done.
Edema is different then an abscess, an abscess will have fluid within, edema is just inflammed tissue, and with the ban amine this horse is getting if it was edema you would have seen a change as banamine is an antiinflammatory.
As I said earlier, if an ultrasound hasn't been done, one needs to be done.
My frustration with vets is this should have been done the first time, now it is just a money grab, each time the op takes the horse back to the vet, 9/10 times she will be charged for the initial exam fee, so that would be 2 unnecessary exam fees if the ultrasound was done on the first visit. Also the hauling of the horse should be kept to a minimal as the more the horse is hauled the more stress it encounters, and if this horse already had laminitis, the stress of hauling while sick can cause another laminitis episode. |
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 Elite Veteran
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| I have a gelding who a month ago had a belly similar to this. His sheath swelled larger than usual(stays a little on the big size) The swollen area wasn't as large as your guys but it took a little while to go away. I sent pics to the vet since he's over an 1 hr away. I don't think he was running a fever and he seemed fine other that the swelling. He has a very very small hernia. He is also overweight. I would lunge him for a few minutes a day and that seemed the best for it. It went away and he seems fine now. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Hows he doing tonight? |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | dk66 - 2015-12-29 8:29 AM Colorado State University School of Veterinary Medicine has done the most research on dryland distemper, corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis infection commonly known as pigeon fever. It usually manifests in the ventral abdominal area seen in the pictures and is most common in the pectorial area giving it the name pigeon fever because of its resemblance to a pigeon chest. Lymphangitis and internal infection should be treated with longterm antimicrobials (1 mo duration or as directed by follow-up ultrasonography). The organism is susceptible to most commonly administered antimicrobials; HOWEVER, antimicrobial treatment of uncomplicated external abscesses may prolong the disease by delaying abscess maturation. External abscess swellings are treated with hot packs, poultices, or hydrotherapy until they rupture or drained surgically is severe dire cases.So what the internal specialists at CSU advised my veterinarian when my mare had dryland distemper was to let the abscesses come to a head, rupture then flush out the abscesses with a mild diluted antimicrobial solution then start the course of antibiotics. The majority of information pertaining to manifestation of distemper related abscesses is the same as mentioned above. The horse stands a good chance of recurrence of the infection if it is not allowed to manifest and run its course.
Winner winner chicken dinner! |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2015-12-29 7:53 PM Hows he doing tonight?
He is doing good tonight. We took him into the clinic this afternoon and had him checked over by both of the vets (it's a 2 vet clinic, but only 1 has been working his case). The other vet believes we are on the right track since he seems to be responding to the antibiotics. However she thinks we need to do a few more blood tests just to rule some things out. One of the tests was for Cushings due to his lack of muscle tone. Both vets think he is underweight. I will admit that he doesn't have a top line but I don't think he is skinny. It's a long story, but in August he was put on a low sugar diet due to laminitis issues. At the time we were told he was obese and the vet at the university actually scolded us for keeping too much weight on him. And now we are being told he is skinny. In 16 years of owning horses, I have never once been told any of my horses were underweight. So I'll be honest, it kind of hurt to hear that. So on top of having a sick horse, I apparently have a thin horse too. Feeling pretty defeated. |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/ |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
This horse does not look thin to me...In fact hes pretty darn healthy looking to me, except for the swelling of course. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-29 9:34 PM he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/
He is built differently and even as a 5 year old, he didn't have great topline. When I used to ride him during the week it definitely improved his overall appearance but anytime he has sat in the pasture for a few months, his topline gets saggy. That's why the vet suggested a Cushings test. But this horse sheds out beautifully every summer so I'm a little skeptical. But it can't hurt to test him at this point. Unfortunately, even the other vet didn't think an ultrasound was necessary. After inspecting the swelling she said its textbook edema. They did say if the antibiotic hasn't brought the swelling down in a week then we will most likely ultrasound. So now we just wait.
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-29 9:43 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Thank you. Im inclined to agree and I will admit I got a tiny bit defensive earlier at the clinic. A full picture (which I will get one for you guys to see) would show a definite lack of muscle tone around his withers and point of hip. And I agree he could use a pick up in those areas. I guess I just attributed it to age and his overall comformation.
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2015-12-29 9:12 PM Southtxponygirl - 2015-12-29 9:43 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-28 2:35 PM I made a collage so I would only have to upload one picture lol.
Edited to add: please excuse the black marks. We have been using sharpie to mark the swelling.
Well heck with a bit of age we all can get a little pot belly, lol
And another thing look at all those dapples, to me if he was lacking for good food he sure would not have those.. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Totally agree with you Roxie---I was looking at those dapples!!! I think he looks good. Do we know how old be is? |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Chandler's Mom - 2015-12-29 11:55 PM Totally agree with you Roxie---I was looking at those dapples!!! I think he looks good. Do we know how old be is?
I think the OP said that he was 21..  |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Runninbay - 2015-12-29 9:03 PM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-29 9:34 PM he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/ He is built differently and even as a 5 year old, he didn't have great topline. When I used to ride him during the week it definitely improved his overall appearance but anytime he has sat in the pasture for a few months, his topline gets saggy. That's why the vet suggested a Cushings test. But this horse sheds out beautifully every summer so I'm a little skeptical. But it can't hurt to test him at this point. Unfortunately, even the other vet didn't think an ultrasound was necessary. After inspecting the swelling she said its textbook edema. They did say if the antibiotic hasn't brought the swelling down in a week then we will most likely ultrasound. So now we just wait.
So does that mean you have to haul back and are charged an additional clinic fee?...
I am just curious. I've been following since day one but i'm not sure why the vet would inadvertently tell you no when you asked for an ultrasound without any evidence as to why it was not needed other than "I think it's textbook edema". If she is not charging you each time you go the office then I understand why no ultrasound, but if she IS charging you each time you haul up there then I begin to question their motives... I am in no way bashing your vet. I am not a vet and I have no idea what it could be it just rubs me the wrong way to think you will have to haul back for something you previously asked for. Does this make sense? .... I hope I'm making sense.
I also really hope your vet is correct in the diagnosis and that the swelling goes down for your boys sake. Hugs to you!  |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | IRunOnFaith - 2015-12-30 6:57 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-29 9:03 PM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-29 9:34 PM he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/ He is built differently and even as a 5 year old, he didn't have great topline. When I used to ride him during the week it definitely improved his overall appearance but anytime he has sat in the pasture for a few months, his topline gets saggy. That's why the vet suggested a Cushings test. But this horse sheds out beautifully every summer so I'm a little skeptical. But it can't hurt to test him at this point. Unfortunately, even the other vet didn't think an ultrasound was necessary. After inspecting the swelling she said its textbook edema. They did say if the antibiotic hasn't brought the swelling down in a week then we will most likely ultrasound. So now we just wait.
I am just curious. I've been following since day one but i'm not sure why the vet would inadvertently tell you no when you asked for an ultrasound without any evidence as to why it was not needed other than "I think it's textbook edema". If she is not charging you each time you go the office then I understand why no ultrasound, but if she IS charging you each time you haul up there then I begin to question their motives... I am in no way bashing your vet. I am not a vet and I have no idea what it could be it just rubs me the wrong way to think you will have to haul back for something you previously asked for. Does this make sense? .... I hope I'm making sense.
I also really hope your vet is correct in the diagnosis and that the swelling goes down for your boys sake. Hugs to you!
Well short answer...yes we are still getting charged. However, we were really the ones pushing to bring him in. We wanted to other vet to look him over in person and didnt feel like paying a trip fee. Fortuntely, this clinic is located a short 15 minutes from our house. So its not a big deal to haul a horse in. But yes, it does make sense what you are saying. And I agree on some level. I was hoping since he was there, they might just go ahead and do the ultrasound. But at the same time, we didnt force the procedure. So we are at fault as well.
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Runninbay - 2015-12-30 8:00 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2015-12-30 6:57 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-29 9:03 PM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-29 9:34 PM he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/ He is built differently and even as a 5 year old, he didn't have great topline. When I used to ride him during the week it definitely improved his overall appearance but anytime he has sat in the pasture for a few months, his topline gets saggy. That's why the vet suggested a Cushings test. But this horse sheds out beautifully every summer so I'm a little skeptical. But it can't hurt to test him at this point. Unfortunately, even the other vet didn't think an ultrasound was necessary. After inspecting the swelling she said its textbook edema. They did say if the antibiotic hasn't brought the swelling down in a week then we will most likely ultrasound. So now we just wait.
I am just curious. I've been following since day one but i'm not sure why the vet would inadvertently tell you no when you asked for an ultrasound without any evidence as to why it was not needed other than "I think it's textbook edema". If she is not charging you each time you go the office then I understand why no ultrasound, but if she IS charging you each time you haul up there then I begin to question their motives... I am in no way bashing your vet. I am not a vet and I have no idea what it could be it just rubs me the wrong way to think you will have to haul back for something you previously asked for. Does this make sense? .... I hope I'm making sense.
I also really hope your vet is correct in the diagnosis and that the swelling goes down for your boys sake. Hugs to you!
How is he today? I'd love to see a picture of his whole body. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Chandler's Mom - 2015-12-30 8:12 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-30 8:00 PM IRunOnFaith - 2015-12-30 6:57 PM Runninbay - 2015-12-29 9:03 PM RoaniePonie11 - 2015-12-29 9:34 PM he doesn't look thin to me.... I see the withers but my 6yo has a weak topline. Its the way some horses are built. I don't think I believe the "under weight" thing and I hope they aren't grasping at straws trying to give you an answer. I guess that means they didn't ultrasound :/ He is built differently and even as a 5 year old, he didn't have great topline. When I used to ride him during the week it definitely improved his overall appearance but anytime he has sat in the pasture for a few months, his topline gets saggy. That's why the vet suggested a Cushings test. But this horse sheds out beautifully every summer so I'm a little skeptical. But it can't hurt to test him at this point. Unfortunately, even the other vet didn't think an ultrasound was necessary. After inspecting the swelling she said its textbook edema. They did say if the antibiotic hasn't brought the swelling down in a week then we will most likely ultrasound. So now we just wait.
I am just curious. I've been following since day one but i'm not sure why the vet would inadvertently tell you no when you asked for an ultrasound without any evidence as to why it was not needed other than "I think it's textbook edema". If she is not charging you each time you go the office then I understand why no ultrasound, but if she IS charging you each time you haul up there then I begin to question their motives... I am in no way bashing your vet. I am not a vet and I have no idea what it could be it just rubs me the wrong way to think you will have to haul back for something you previously asked for. Does this make sense? .... I hope I'm making sense.
I also really hope your vet is correct in the diagnosis and that the swelling goes down for your boys sake. Hugs to you! How is he today? I'd love to see a picture of his whole body.
I was wondering the same thing, hows he doing today and what is the swelling doing, is it going down still? |
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Voice of Reason
Location: NOT at Wal Mart | Glad to hear your boy is making progress.
Edited by justcruzin 2015-12-30 11:54 PM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Any updates for us today ? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If your horse has had a laminitic episode, make sure before they test for cushings, you know the procedure.
Some vets still use the injecting IV dexamethasone waiting 8 hours (I think) then pulling blood. The dex will probably cause your horse to founder since he has had laminitis prior.
The new test tests the acth hormone level, I just read up on it in my vet text and you need to make sure they follow the procedure to a t. No glass, rapid separation from rbc and freezing of plasma before shipment is the quick version |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Praying for your boy and hoping for an update |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Just out of curiosity, what is this horses normal diet? ...and what was he on when he had the laminitic episode?
Loss of topline, ventral edema, anorexia, fever, intestinal inflammation, etc...all point to a digestive issue. Have they mentioned any kind of cardiac concern with the edema? |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | rachellyn80 - 2015-12-31 11:41 PM Just out of curiosity, what is this horses normal diet? ...and what was he on when he had the laminitic episode?
Loss of topline, ventral edema, anorexia, fever, intestinal inflammation, etc...all point to a digestive issue. Have they mentioned any kind of cardiac concern with the edema?
Thats what I am wondering if they have checked heart. ventral edema is a symptom of heart issues |
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 Expert
Posts: 1568
Location: Texas | We had an Appaloosa gelding with the same symptoms. He was diagnosed with Purpura Hemorrhagia. Had to keep your of the sunlight and give antibiotics. Definitely take your horse to the vet. Our gelding's swelling was his whole underbelly, from between his front legs all the way to between his back legs. The swelling hung down over 6 inches from his body. He was in performance shape. The vet could not explain why or how.
Edited by Dudette 2016-01-01 8:15 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Dudette - 2016-01-01 8:14 PM
We had an Appaloosa gelding with the same symptoms. He was diagnosed with Purpura Hemorrhagia. Had to keep your of the sunlight and give antibiotics. Definitely take your horse to the vet. Our gelding's swelling was his whole underbelly, from between his front legs all the way to between his back legs. The swelling hung down over 6 inches from his body. He was in performance shape. The vet could not explain why or how.
Question, was your horse vaccinated for strangles? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 900
Location: TExas | Bastard Strangles???? A lot of horses are getting strangles this year. Older ones, some that have been vaccinated and all. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cowgirlup012002 - 2016-01-02 1:28 PM Bastard Strangles???? A lot of horses are getting strangles this year. Older ones, some that have been vaccinated and all.
I went to go look at a horse a few years back and the horses that it was with were all sick looking, then the man comes out side to talk to his wife and was telling her that some of their horses have bastard strangels I almost came unglued because the horses had open sores on their legs and underbellys oozzing. I left in a hurry and striped all my clothes and boots and threw them all in the washer and disenfected my truck and myself, I was freaked. So with BS they can bust open anywhere on their bodys and drain, nasty stuff. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 900
Location: TExas | Yep and sometimes they dont bust, or bust internaly. Bad thing. Some reason thisyear a lot of horses arebreaking out with it htat have never had problems in the past. This weather has really made it bad think |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cowgirlup012002 - 2016-01-02 2:33 PM Yep and sometimes they dont bust, or bust internaly. Bad thing. Some reason thisyear a lot of horses arebreaking out with it htat have never had problems in the past. This weather has really made it bad think
Think goodness I have never have dealt with BS are just strangles.. That place I went to was in Floresville that I came across the BS and I never went back to that place ever.. Scared me silly, lol.. |
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Expert
Posts: 1568
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2016-01-02 1:19 PM Dudette - 2016-01-01 8:14 PM We had an Appaloosa gelding with the same symptoms. He was diagnosed with Purpura Hemorrhagia. Had to keep your of the sunlight and give antibiotics. Definitely take your horse to the vet. Our gelding's swelling was his whole underbelly, from between his front legs all the way to between his back legs. The swelling hung down over 6 inches from his body. He was in performance shape. The vet could not explain why or how. Question, was your horse vaccinated for strangles?
He was an older gelding, about 14-15 when it happened Been so long at but we normally don't vaccinate for strangles when they get that old. We very seldom, in a long time have had any strange horses on our place. They are always watered from their own bucket when we travel. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Dudette - 2016-01-02 8:55 PM
cheryl makofka - 2016-01-02 1:19 PM Dudette - 2016-01-01 8:14 PM We had an Appaloosa gelding with the same symptoms. He was diagnosed with Purpura Hemorrhagia. Had to keep your of the sunlight and give antibiotics. Definitely take your horse to the vet. Our gelding's swelling was his whole underbelly, from between his front legs all the way to between his back legs. The swelling hung down over 6 inches from his body. He was in performance shape. The vet could not explain why or how. Question, was your horse vaccinated for strangles?
Thanks, I was told by a vet that the vaccine itself can cause purpura, and if they have had the vaccine then get the disease they have more of a chance of developing purpura. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| cheryl makofka - 2016-01-02 9:27 PM
Dudette - 2016-01-02 8:55 PM
cheryl makofka - 2016-01-02 1:19 PM Dudette - 2016-01-01 8:14 PM We had an Appaloosa gelding with the same symptoms. He was diagnosed with Purpura Hemorrhagia. Had to keep your of the sunlight and give antibiotics. Definitely take your horse to the vet. Our gelding's swelling was his whole underbelly, from between his front legs all the way to between his back legs. The swelling hung down over 6 inches from his body. He was in performance shape. The vet could not explain why or how. Question, was your horse vaccinated for strangles?
Thanks, I was told by a vet that the vaccine itself can cause purpura, and if they have had the vaccine then get the disease they have more of a chance of developing purpura.
One of the mares I sold ended up getting purpura - she was off the track so I'm assuming had been vaccinated. Current owners had her in with a sick horse and she ended up getting it. They put her down because they couldn't figure it out.. I wouldn't be surprised if the vaccine played a part. She raced until she was nine and then I owned her until thirteen so I don't think she actually ever had strangles, just the vaccine. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | How is your boy doing? |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Hey guys! I apologize again that I haven't updated on here. On top of this, a death in the family has occurred so it's just been a roller coaster ride lately. However, I am thrilled to report that Dan (my boy) is doing fantastic! We finally had a cold snap with no rain and I really think it helped his body absorb that excess fluid. There is still a small bit of swelling, so we aren't 100% out of clear yet but things are looking great. I finally put him back with my yearling filly - vet said this was alright - and they were just cutting up like fools together. So needless to say, he is feeling much better. I can't even explain how relieved I am. You all were extremely helpful during this whole ordeal and helped me stay confident about his treatment process. Not to mention I am now very educated on ventral swelling and everything that could possibly cause it lol. I can't thank you guys enough.
* Adding a picture from tonight for anyone curious :)
Edited by Runninbay 2016-01-03 8:31 PM
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Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | Looks much better!! So glad he's on the up and up! |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Sounds like things are on the mend:) im sorry for the death in your family...hugs.I REALLY want to see a full photo of your boy.His color and dapples just make me want to see handsome dan lol. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2016-01-03 8:27 PM
Hey guys! I apologize again that I haven't updated on here. On top of this, a death in the family has occurred so it's just been a roller coaster ride lately. However, I am thrilled to report that Dan (my boy) is doing fantastic! We finally had a cold snap with no rain and I really think it helped his body absorb that excess fluid. There is still a small bit of swelling, so we aren't 100% out of clear yet but things are looking great. I finally put him back with my yearling filly - vet said this was alright - and they were just cutting up like fools together. So needless to say, he is feeling much better. I can't even explain how relieved I am. You all were extremely helpful during this whole ordeal and helped me stay confident about his treatment process. Not to mention I am now very educated on ventral swelling and everything that could possibly cause it lol. I can't thank you guys enough.
* Adding a picture from tonight for anyone curious :)
Now that looks much better  |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2016-01-03 9:43 PM Sounds like things are on the mend:) im sorry for the death in your family...hugs.I REALLY want to see a full photo of your boy.His color and dapples just make me want to see handsome dan lol.
Ah yes! I completely forgot about getting a full body shot. I'll try to get one tomorrow when I get home from work and I'll post it.
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Even just a face:) something to show us who we have worried about:))) |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | jake16 - 2016-01-03 9:28 PM Even just a face:) something to show us who we have worried about:)))
LOL, we would like a face to go with the belly that we have been worring over.  |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2016-01-03 10:28 PM Even just a face:) something to show us who we have worried about:)))
Well this is what he looks like during the summer months. Unfortunately he loses his dapples but he turns into a pretty golden buckskin. He was 19 in this picture.
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
You guys are gonna regret asking me for pictures. LOL
Edited by Runninbay 2016-01-03 9:37 PM
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Wowzer.love his color:)) |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Runninbay - 2016-01-03 9:31 PM jake16 - 2016-01-03 10:28 PM Even just a face:) something to show us who we have worried about:)))
Well this is what he looks like during the summer months. Unfortunately he loses his dapples but he turns into a pretty golden buckskin. He was 19 in this picture.
And the Vets thinks hes to thin?....Hes very handsome.. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | HOLY SMOKES HES GORGEOUS |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Thanks guys...he's definitely a family member. From the age of 9 to 24 (and yes that includes those terrible teen years) he has never once refused to do anything I have asked of him. He even made it through my version of barrel "training" when I was 12 years old. He has won me saddles, buckles, and more money than any other horse I've owned. He is one of the good ones. That's why I just can't stand to see him not feeling good. It really tugs on my heart. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | He is a gorgeous boy! So glad he's feeling better cause i know when our kids aren't feeling well neither do we. . . . (I have a 36 year old Dan, and his arthritis makes ME hurt!!) And post as many pics as you want! |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | Chandler's Mom - 2016-01-04 12:09 AM He is a gorgeous boy! So glad he's feeling better cause i know when our kids aren't feeling well neither do we. . . . (I have a 36 year old Dan, and his arthritis makes ME hurt!!) And post as many pics as you want!
36! Wow that's awesome! I pray my Dan makes it as long as yours has. I would love to have him around for another 15 years. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Runninbay - 2016-01-03 11:49 PM
Chandler's Mom - 2016-01-04 12:09 AM He is a gorgeous boy! So glad he's feeling better cause i know when our kids aren't feeling well neither do we. . . . (I have a 36 year old Dan, and his arthritis makes ME hurt!!) And post as many pics as you want!
36! Wow that's awesome! I pray my Dan makes it as long as yours has. I would love to have him around for another 15 years.
He has some arthritis that gets bad in the cold weather, and his sight isn't great but other than that he is in awesome shape. Especially for his age. I walk a tight line between what I think is a good weight vs what he needs to be for those old arthritic legs! I'm guilty of "fluffier" horses rather than thinner ones, and I really have to watch that I don't do that with him. (I feel he looks thin, but everybody else says absolutely not.) My vet, my farrier, and my friends say he looks great. Most people don't believe me when I tell them how old he is. Please believe me when I say everyone should be glad I don't know how to post pictures, cause I'd be overwhelming y'all with them!
Again, I am so happy for you and your Dan  |
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 Ima Cool Kid
Posts: 3496
Location: TN | Glad to see how well Dan is doing!!!!! He looks fantastic |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Just wanted to update you all about Dan...
Unfortunately we seem to have reached a plateau. We have now given the Excede shot a total of 6 times and at $110 a pop, its starting to get real old. The results do not differ from week to week. Nor does the blood work. There is still some swelling remaining. It comes a goes. Some days I rub his belly and think to myself "Hey no swelling today, that's great!" Then the next day he will be puffy again. This has been going on for 4 weeks. Honestly I feel as if they shot is just keeping whatever it is at bay. We keep asking the vet what we can do to try to hit it from another angle and she just insists we keep giving the shot every 7 days. At what point do you say enough is enough? Yesterday she pulled blood to test for Cushings. She thinks he could have it with his poor topline and it could explain his weakened immune response. Hopefully we will have the results by Friday. A few weeks ago we tested him for strangles/pigeon fever and something else that I cant remember....but all those results came back normal. At this point we are considering reaching out to a different vet.
I see this from time to time on social media and cant help but relate....
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting differently results."
What would you guys do at this point?
Edited by Runninbay 2016-01-27 5:50 PM
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 Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | I skimmed thru this so I apologize if I'm asking something that has been answered, have you done a fecal for bacteria? |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | We did a fecal for worms....but not specifically for bacteria. I have read through Cowboy's ordeal and at this point im considering anything. So glad he is doing better by the way!
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Runninbay - 2016-01-27 5:47 PM
Just wanted to update you all about Dan...
Unfortunately we seem to have reached a plateau. We have now given the Excede shot a total of 6 times and at $110 a pop, its starting to get real old. The results do not differ from week to week. Nor does the blood work. There is still some swelling remaining. It comes a goes. Some days I rub his belly and think to myself "Hey no swelling today, that's great!" Then the next day he will be puffy again. This has been going on for 4 weeks. Honestly I feel as if they shot is just keeping whatever it is at bay. We keep asking the vet what we can do to try to hit it from another angle and she just insists we keep giving the shot every 7 days. At what point do you say enough is enough? Yesterday she pulled blood to test for Cushings. She thinks he could have it with his poor topline and it could explain his weakened immune response. Hopefully we will have the results by Friday. A few weeks ago we tested him for strangles/pigeon fever and something else that I cant remember....but all those results came back normal. At this point we are considering reaching out to a different vet.
I see this from time to time on social media and cant help but relate....
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting differently results."
What would you guys do at this point?
I would go to a different vet, they may tell you to continue as is but at least you would know you are treating appropriately. My retired guy had a bad cut on a joint, took him to a vet close by, stitched it up, stitches kept coming out, repeated trips back. After 6 weeks and no healing, I took him to my good vet who braced his leg and had him healed in 3 weeks. Good luck |
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Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | Runninbay - 2016-01-27 3:59 PM
We did a fecal for worms....but not specifically for bacteria. I have read through Cowboy's ordeal and at this point im considering anything. So glad he is doing better by the way!
Thank you!!!
It wouldn't hurt as it may be some sort of virus, even mild, and that particular antibiotic (Excede) may not be the appropriate one to treat it. I know when Cow was in the hospital and he had all the swelling on his belly and between his chest they told me it was because his calcium & protein levels weren't working properly, altho I know you said you've done blood tests so I'm assuming that isn't your current problem. I do hope you get an answer!! |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | I would go to a different vet and say NOTHING about his treatment so far until they talk first.see what they think.Hes so beautiful...I was hoping he would be perfect by now:( |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | did you ever get ultrasound? |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | I would definitely get another vet opinion. May get the same diagnosis, but I would rather do that than miss something. We gotta get this boy back healthy!
Edited by Chandler's Mom 2016-01-27 8:07 PM
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Yes you need a second opinion but you need a difinative diagnosis. Get to a University or top surgical center vet. Not that he needs surgery, but because those are the vets that wont jerk your chain and piddle fart around playing games with limited knowledge and resources. Go to the top and you will save money in the long run and have answeres, the real answeres on your horse. |
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Member
Posts: 29
| Consider pupura hemorrhagica if he's not normal by now. Treatment is usually corticosteroids. Any swelling of the muzzle or elsewhere? |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2016-01-27 8:05 PM did you ever get ultrasound?
We never got one done. Vet still thinks it would inconclusive....I respect my vet and her opinion. I just feel like we've given this antibotic plenty of time to do its job...and it not. And then it worries me because if it is something more serious we just wasted a lot of time. Ive been researching like crazy and heart disease / failure keeps popping up. I think they would have do a cardiac ultrasound to determine that considering blood work is mostly normal. I just really need an answer at this point.
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-27 9:33 PM Yes you need a second opinion but you need a difinative diagnosis. Get to a University or top surgical center vet. Not that he needs surgery, but because those are the vets that wont jerk your chain and piddle fart around playing games with limited knowledge and resources. Go to the top and you will save money in the long run and have answeres, the real answeres on your horse.
We have two nice universities within 3 hours of us...I think if he looks the same next week we will be paying one of them a visit. Makes me wish we had done it from the get go.
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | shepsrus - 2016-01-27 10:43 PM Consider pupura hemorrhagica if he's not normal by now. Treatment is usually corticosteroids. Any swelling of the muzzle or elsewhere?
Did a quick search and looked this up. That stuff looks nasty. He doesnt have swelling anywhere else. Just his belly. And no sores or broken skin. Seems a little more advanced than what he is showing.
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | So, when the vet did the "bloodwork" how was the liver and kidney function? I've seen issues with kidneys that cause the edema in the belly. I believe the treatment was sulfa or amoxicillin......I'm not familiar with exede (i think) -just looked it up it's exenel or naxel.....which is broad spectrum but indicated mostly for upper respiratory infections. Since the exede hasn't done the trick I would tend to believe you're barking up the wrong tree so to speak. That should make a huge difference after only 3 injections-in fact it's indicated for only needing 2!
I've also seen edema in the belly when the sheeth needs to be cleaned a large bean removed.
Just ask specifically about the kidneys and liver (or maybe you know already)
Since he is not better by now-(almost a month?) I would definitely get a second opinion-please keep in mind I know nothing about pigeon fever as that is not something we deal with here. Good luck to you, I think you should push your vet a little farther and at the very least get the ultrasound if everything else looks OK. |
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 Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | I encourage you to join the forum at www.secondvet.com and post this question for Dr. Schell. I know the frustrations of spending thousands of dollars in a very short time and getting little to no improvement. My horse continued to deteriorate despite several of the best vets in Texas and Oklahoma treating him. I had one vet that recommended surgery, to which I couldn't justify, as I felt it would only correct one of the symptoms rather than the underlying issue, and the last vet recommended I put him down, and offered to write a letter recommending euthanasia to my insurance company, due to his inability to breate effiecienlty enough to withstand the upcoming hot and humid weather we have down here. I wasn't ready to do that. Through much research I stumbled across the Cur-OST website and began consulting with Dr. Schell. After about 3 weeks of him answering my questions, he asked me to give him 2 weeks to help my horse. Being very much a supplement skeptic, I was very hesitant, but I had nothing to lose except for my horse's life. I took the plunge and took a leap of faith, discontinued all medications and supplements, and began my Cur-OST journey. What happened next was nothing short of amazing. In 2 weeks I was back to lightly exercising a horse who previously couldn't breathe while at rest. In a month I was back to riding him. The physical change was phenomenal, and the "quirks" he had before he was even sick began to go away. I had a completely new horse...for the better! Had I not taken this journey, this horse would likely not be here today. It's amazing what is possible when we treat the source of the issues and get the immune response functioning correctly, as an overactive immune system can actually create an auto immune disease and the body begins attacking itself! The pictures below are only 30 days on this program. Alot more good information in this article outlying leaky gut syndrome and how it impacts our horses (and ourselves), as well as much more additional information on the "Articles" page on the Nouvelle Research website. https://www.nouvelleresearch.com/index.php/articles/385-leaky-gut-syndrome-health-soundness
Edited by Herbie 2016-01-28 10:57 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 718
Location: BOSSIER CITY, LA | I had a horse that did this exact thing. After several trips to Dr Honnas and his consulting with other vets- it was determined by biopsy that he had a type of worm that was causing the swelling and it had taken up residence in his sheath/stomach area. We had to use a special wormer for 5 days but I cant remember what it was. Our horse was wormed routinely but this worm was immune to what we had been using. You might ask your vet about it, couldnt hurt. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | How is your boy? |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | How is your boy? |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Bump |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
Well I have some interesting news.
We had the vet come out Wednesday to pull blood and give another dose of Excede. We were supposed to do it on Tuesday but honestly had considered stopping the shots. Our vet insisted we continue so we wouldn't have to start this process all over, so we decided to go ahead. Yesterday the blood work came back normal again and this time his serum amloiyd A (SAA) showed zero signs of an infection. And yes swelling remains. So I think she is finally concerned that we are dealing with something bigger than just an infection of some sort. We have made an appointment for Monday to take him to Auburn. I'm hoping by the end of the day we will know exactly what is going on with my boy.
Im praying it is something treatable and not life threatening. Thank you guys for keeping this thread going and checking on him.
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Many prayers for some answers,and I will be waiting impatiently for an update.lol |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2016-02-05 8:14 PM Many prayers for some answers,and I will be waiting impatiently for an update.lol
Thank you! 
I'm feeling very impatient myself. |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Cant wait to hear what they say. Glad you are going to get a fresh opinion. Please keep us posted. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-05 7:50 PM
Cant wait to hear what they say. Glad you are going to get a fresh opinion. Please keep us posted.
^^^ agree totally. Many many prayers for a definite answer and GOOD news. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Bumping for tomorrow and PRAYERS PRAYERS PRAYERS |
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Shelter Dog Lover
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My Heart Be Happy
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Location: Arkansas | |
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Location: Mississsippi |  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 959
Location: Borger, Tx | Prayers for good news and answers! |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Still following. Still praying.
Hoping all is well.... |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO |   |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Hoping you got good news |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
We are finally home! Its been a long day. Unfortunately, all of the tests from today showed nothing abnormal. The vets performed a full abdominal ultrasound, including the heart and lungs. All the organs looked great. No fluid around the heart so that pretty much ruled out any heart problems. They checked him for any respiratory issues and none were found. A rectal exam was also conducted and all of that felt normal as well. The belly tap fluid was perfect and the tests showed no cancerous cells. They also ran a couple additional blood tests and everything was in the normal range. Protein levels were slightly slow but nothing that the vets were concerned about. Basically he is a perfectly healthy 21 year old horse....with edema. I think they were stumped. And we are feeling pretty frustrated. Dont get me wrong. Im thrilled nothing serious showed up today. I was just so ready to have a reason for all this. At this point they just want us to monitor the swelling. If anything changes they have asked us to call. Otherwise, he may just have to live like this. As long as he is happy and health internally, I suppose that'll be alright. Thank you guys so much for checking on him today! It really means alot. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I wonder if he could have some kind of allergys  |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Well....im glad to hear it must not be serious!! I wish you had an answer tho.Glad you had a safe trip! |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | jake16 - 2016-02-08 9:44 PM Well....im glad to hear it must not be serious!! I wish you had an answer tho.Glad you had a safe trip!
Thank you! Im hoping maybe it will just resolve on its own in time. |
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Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
He very well could. Maybe it just caused a severe imflammatory response. At this point anything is possible. |
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Veteran
Posts: 154
| I am sure he will be happy to be done with shots!! hope he gets rid of the swelling soon. |
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 Firecracker Dog Lover
Posts: 3175
| What kind of feed is your horse on? |
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