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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
 
| Hey guys .. I have a 9 yr old mare , I bought her when she was 6 . She was started with absolutely no foundation , terrible stop , wouldn't back up etc . She drops her shoulders & swings her butt in s turn so bad , especially on the first & 3 rd barrel . I have all her foundation work now . Working on an even better stop . Really trying to get her underneath herself . She'll lope around barrels correctly all day long , even the pattern , but the minute I add any speed at all she immediately goes back to dropping the shoulder & swinging the butt . She pivots on her hind end very well now considering she couldn't do that at all 2 years ago . I have her doing roll backs .. She used to stop her head & swing her hind end on those too but I have her not doing that anymore . Just anything that makes her feel rushed or have to be a quick maneuver she resorts back to swinging the hind end . She knows how to do it right but she can't kick the bad habit ! She was started at 2 so she's been running like that since a 3 yr old . I get so aggravated bc she's a solid 1 d horse even with turning incorrectly .. I haven't ran her since October . I've been just doing time onlys loping a correct pattern , which she will do until you try to go one step faster .. Then back to swinging . Ive been correcting her everytime .. I took her to an indoor the other night to keep working on the issue . I ended up only working on the first barrel bc i can only fix one problem at a time it seems like . She'd lope it fine , try to step up & drop & swing . I corrected her a million times & she finally did it right at a decent speed & I let her & got off .. I'm stressing her out doing it but it's truly the only way I can get through to her bc she's only doing it on the pattern .. Anyone ever have a horse like this ? How long does it take to re wire them ? Or can it even be done ? I want to fix it so bad but I feel like it's a losing battle . Sorry for the major long post ! Any advice is appreciated . Just getting discouraged with this horse . I feel bad bc I know it's not her fault , it's how she was started .. But if I could just get her to understand there is a better way to do it & much more efficient. I've been trying to follow the Connie combs exercises to keep her straighter longer , but once again she's so set on dropping the front end , it's so hard to do with anything faster than a lope .
Edited by Fancy Lass 2016-01-11 6:16 PM
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
 
| My suggestion is to send her to a good trainer and see what they say. I have a great one and sending my horses to her has always been money well spent. You can also,learn from the trainer how to properly tune her. Good luck. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| I have one doing the same thing i started him all over. I love be following your post, I've been doing lots of counter circles moving the hips and shoulders, turn arounds mine is stopping like this |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Who is your suggestion ? I've always thought of this , but just dont know who I'd send her too |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| I have one doing the same thing i started him all over. I love be following your post, I've been doing lots of counter circles moving the hips and shoulders, turn arounds mine is stopping like this |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | For my Red, he was not engaging his butt in the turn because his hocks were fusing and I didn't know it. I thought for sure I was doing something wrong in my training and was really questioning myself.
Got his hocks injected and had a brand new horse on my hands. It was amazing.
Your post didn't mention anything about vet lamesness exams. If you havent' done so, that would be the first thing I'd do ... because it's been the reason in the past for me!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| r_beau - 2016-01-12 10:36 AM
For my Red, he was not engaging his butt in the turn because his hocks were fusing and I didn't know it. I thought for sure I was doing something wrong in my training and was really questioning myself.
Got his hocks injected and had a brand new horse on my hands. It was amazing.
Your post didn't mention anything about vet lamesness exams. If you havent' done so, that would be the first thing I'd do ... because it's been the reason in the past for me!
She's been fully checked out on many occasions . She isn't hurting at all . I know it's stuck in this horses kind that this is the easiest way & she's hard to change bc of how she is in general . |
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 A Barrel Of Monkeys
Posts: 12972
Location: Texas | You'll have to change her up completely. Pulling too much on the nose throws a horse on his front end, causing the butt swinging.
Your horse needs to learn how to bend her body in the middle, not just the neck. All of this can be done at a walk.
Take her into the pocket (at a walk) and stop her as your knee is even with the barrel. Push her body forward into the turn, maintaining forward motion. Don't pull on her head, keep her head as straight as possible as she learns to engage her hind end. Try to bend her ribcage with your leg, and if she pushes her hip out in the process, use your outside leg to push her hip back behind her while pushing her forward. Her hip should be behind her, not in or out.
This is a process that takes a while, and you can't do it at a run or even a lope.
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | Can you post a video? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| r_beau - 2016-01-12 12:41 PM
Can you post a video?
Here are a couple videos . It's the worst on the 1 st barrel & usually the 3 rd too .. She stay engaged enough to finish the turn so she'll blow off it terribly . I've put some videos on before & I've had people say I pitch the reins & give no que. which isn't true , I don't care if you throw your reins down or hold them steady , the mare still drop out from under you & swings her body . She had absolutely no intentions on engaging her hind end . Some aren't too bad , others are horrible . I'm just tired of the inconsistency .
This is an arena I can never get a good first , due to her swinging her hind end ;
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gHfZ8QSCfXo
This one you can really see her drop half way to the first , then just run around the 3 rd bc she won't use her hind end :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FFlmlJh4cGo
This arena is probably her best arena .. But still the first is terrible how she drops the front end & then digs her way out with her front end vs powering off with her hind .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWBPSOniBuE
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Check into Connie Combs and her Squares exercises. She really helped with my butt swingers. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Thank you ! I'm trying to do the straighter longer approach. Trying to really hero her square . It's so hard though ! She'll round her body too but when she gets a little hot then all she wants to do is bend her neck & swing her body .. Won't stay bent at the rib cage like the previous poster said . Here's a video of me training her about a month ago .. Just loping & keeping her correct . She'll stay correct at this speed only :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=njgcGLzD1Ig
Here she is after going through correctly 2 times prior , I didn't really even up the speed at all but notice the difference in the first barrel .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCBSHc6bX9g
Edited by Fancy Lass 2016-01-12 7:28 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| What I see on the videos is the horse isn't collecting or shortening her stride for the turn. She is slowing herself down by dumping on her front end.
In the first slow video, she isnt shortening her stride either.
I would teach her to collect at the turns, which will keep her hind end engaged, and not dump on the front end |
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 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Get control of your outside shoulder. Drive forward. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| Thanks guys ! That's helpful .. It's definitely her not shortening her stride .. But that oughtta be like brain surgery to get her to understand that ..  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| I'm going to go to a Connie combs clinic in March with this horse . See if she can give me the help I need ! :) anyone ever been to one ? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| I have been it's a different style than a lot use around here she is a hand, try it i have a horse doing the same thing i have been gathering up loping or trotting a small cirlcle then loping a few big ones, counter loping when i feel the swinging hip, and realizing i have been getting putting some weight on the shoulders with my body position, with my riding i can usually correct things by adjusting how i ride and I'm working on my core strength. We will see if this corrects my horse in the spring |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 461
| Fancy Lass - 2016-01-12 6:17 PM
Thank you ! I'm trying to do the straighter longer approach. Trying to really hero her square . It's so hard though ! She'll round her body too but when she gets a little hot then all she wants to do is bend her neck & swing her body .. Won't stay bent at the rib cage like the previous poster said . Here's a video of me training her about a month ago .. Just loping & keeping her correct . She'll stay correct at this speed only :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=njgcGLzD1Ig
Here she is after going through correctly 2 times prior , I didn't really even up the speed at all but notice the difference in the first barrel .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sCBSHc6bX9g
To me, the last video is very telling. If you can try moving through that video frame by frame. In my opinion your pocket is way to big. You are giving her what looks like an 8-10 foot pocket. In the last video particularly if you slow it down and look stride for stride she is drifting into that big pocket, her rib is flat, shoulder is blocked and then when you ask for her to come around she is hyper flexing in her neck. The flat rib and drifting into the pocket causes that mare to drop onto her front end because she is **trying** to fix her body. You are trying to keep her straighter around the barrel but IMO it's all in the approach. Straighten your line out to first, stick your arm out to your side so your fingertips could touch the barrel and that's all the further out I'd let her approach first. You can use your outside rein (I'd school her in split reins) to keep some light pressure on her outside which will help keep her hip engaged and the shoulder out. Obviously don't keep constant pressure on the outside rein but when you feel that front end go away bump bump with that outside rein and push with your outside leg at the back cinch at the same time, that helps her to stay balanced and pushes her forward and keeps the hind leg engaged. I think this mare is trying really hard and don't be too hard on yourself. Some people like a bigger pocket or more arc but I don't because I think a lot of horses get to doing what this mare is doing. I might move them out to five or six feet coming in but no more than that. I want them to run all the way into the hole with their hind end driving and the front end pulling.
Edited by Roo 2016-01-16 7:39 PM
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 Go For It!
Location: Texas |
This is a REALLY nice little mare and I think you're picking on her just a bit. She, and you, have a couple of things going on that would be EASY to fix with a few tools out of the toolbox and a little bit of commitment. I think you're making a mistake by going to the pattern to fix this right now though. You may create more harm than good. Where are you located?
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Very cute horse, she looks like she could be a nice one. To me your reins look to short maybe let them out a little let her relax and your just in her face a tad to much, she dont have any flex at all in the ribs, you need to get her flexing, and use the inside rein to help pick her up going into the barrels. Like someone else said dont keep trying to fix her on barrels, teach some flex/bend get her to touch her nose to your toes without force both ways. And ease up on her mouth, she looks like shes got a very soft mouth, what type of bit do you have on her now? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| She's just in an o ring . She'll bend around my leg all day at a walk . Anything faster than that she just throws her head to my boot. She'll touch my boot all day long , but that's easy for her bc she just wants to bend in her neck & not her rib cage . It's hard to lift one going into a barrel bc it's so hard to not cross over the neck & that just dumps them on the front end more. Maybe I'll do more off the pattern ? She does try so hard .. I just can't get her to use herself better on the pattern. When I try to shape her & bend her she just starts slinging her butt & getting to bendy |
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 The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| Start ridding the hind end instead of the front (easyer said than done and isn't the most detailed advice) I would work on getting control of her hips until you get control of her hips working a true square doesn't happen if they are a habitual hip slinger. Start from a stop then work your way forward using a fence when u feel her really bring her hip up release.its important to hold her neck and shoulder straight during this. Keep adding steps till u get both sides independently moving at your request. then move to squares and PROPER text book rollbacks (hold the flames not saying running a horse up into a fence doesn't get the job done) as a reined cutting horse trainer would do. If you need help just youtube some of the things I have described. I have a mare who is 15hh and wears a size 82 blanket she is very long and her hind end isn't naturally under her if a horse isn't in pain teaching them to follow there hip (keep there hip under them) can be learned through very consistent training. To get a better feel for the hind end have a buddy help you and tell them any time the back right or left foot is off the ground while your centered looking forward. Do this at all gates and in circles till you have mastered it. Your feel will improve 10 fold and you will start ridding the back end. Just wanted to add it looks like she really wants to do her job for you  that is half the battle
Edited by Thistle2011 2016-01-17 6:40 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| I've had her at a dressage trainer last July for a couple weeks . She did wonders moving the hip around on her . She had her holding it in at the lope all the way into & around the first barrel , but as you added any speed or she got anxious , she would go right back to dropping her front end & kicking the hip out . Thanks for all the great advice ! This horse knows so much more than when I first bought her . She'll back & roll over her hocks now , which shed have never done two years ago . It still just feels like a losing battle half the time though when I can't keep her rounded or square :( the horse has won me two 1 d saddles already .. I just know how much more she could give me if I could get her to have a more efficient turn . But I just can't get it done at speed |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I would work on collection. You may need to rider her in a more severe bit. I like the grasshopper bit, the Ed wright pretzel bit many people have success with.
You may have to sacrifice runs where you run up to your pocket, two handed slow her down and shorten her stride at the rate point, then turn the barrel speed her up, and do the same thing at each barrel.
You may need to do this for an entire year before her muscle memory changes. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| Start thinking about where your putting your weight are you putting any on the inside stirrup in your turns you maybe influencing this and not t even being aware of it. |
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The BHW Book Worm
Posts: 1768
| Fancy Lass - 2016-01-17 9:31 AM
I've had her at a dressage trainer last July for a couple weeks . She did wonders moving the hip around on her . She had her holding it in at the lope all the way into & around the first barrel , but as you added any speed or she got anxious , she would go right back to dropping her front end & kicking the hip out . Thanks for all the great advice ! This horse knows so much more than when I first bought her . She'll back & roll over her hocks now , which shed have never done two years ago . It still just feels like a losing battle half the time though when I can't keep her rounded or square :( the horse has won me two 1 d saddles already .. I just know how much more she could give me if I could get her to have a more efficient turn . But I just can't get it done at speed
Your hard work will pay off keep at it |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| Sometimes the better trained the more sensitive to how we're sitting i have to concentrate one keeping my weight to the outside stirrup, i teach mine to move the hips shoulders and i caught myself putting weight on the inside stirrup when working barrels and it would throw him off. I love to train my own and learn so i just keep trying different things i figure it out |
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Getting a horse to turn correctly ( swinging hindquarters )