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 Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
  
Location: In The Snow, AZ | So I've had my 6 year old OTTB for a short bit now. Slowly working him back into use after a two year hiatus. Haven't been doing much but easy trail rides, some walk, Trot, lope in the pasture. Lots of bending and flexing, backing. Just keeping everything light and easy.
About a month ago, he started being very ouchy around his withers and down his spine. Not along the sides of the spine, but seemingly over the spine itself. I stayed off of him for two weeks. Took him to the body balancer who worked wonders on my mare. They said this is 100% due to his early career being raced and just showing due to increased workload. They worked on him, and we left with him being much happier and feeling better. I had instructions to "tickle" his belly and to do long and low work to strengthen his back and haunches. He had the next to two weeks off due to weather.
Yesterday I saddled him up to just do some ground work and round pen time. He warmed up well and looks to feel pretty good. Although I do want to add, his back is sore again. I bitted him up a bit to have him work more collected. At a lope, he will stride out normally, but then will bunny hop his back feet on the backside of the round pen.
Now, I've been told that as an OTTB with no formal training, he may just not know how to carry himself correctly all the time. I've been told his hocks may be sore because of fusion. I've been told it's because of back soreness, etc....
Just wanting some more input on what I can do from here. |
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 Midget Lover
  
Location: Kentucky | Google kissing spine. Check out the symptoms.
This is what my mare was doing. She would bunny hop before and around a barrel. Got her checked out by Rood and Riddle after going through numerous vets and lameness exams. Two injections on her spine and she's golden now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u59J-wegXh0 |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Based on this and the work that you've already had done, if it were me, I'd be wanting some pictures.
I'd want hock xrays, and spine xrays. A couple hundred dollars in xrays can save you a ton of money and stress in the long run. I'd also be getting with a saddle fit professional as soon as I could, just to double check that's not magnifying the issue.
Then go from there.
I've had kissing spine horses, I've got hock arthritis horses. I've had muscle sore horses. I always had the best luck with vets truly diagnosing the difference with xrays. Otherwise, you're just guessing.
Bone scans and ultrasounds are an excellent option after you've done xrays and the subsequent blocking etc from there. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Yes, same here. I would check back, hock, stifles by a lameness specialist. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | I would bet you that his hocks are sore-that will feed all the way to the back-though there could be more, I would start with the hocks. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | veintiocho - 2016-01-12 9:34 AM
Yes, same here. I would check back, hock, stifles by a lameness specialist.
This is where I would start regarding bunny hopping. Also, I not sure how large your round pen is. Mine is a little small and when I started my OTTB round penning he wasn't able to stay collected all the time and would lose his balance and do a few bunny hops until he regained his collection. Now he has no issues at all but then he wasn't sore and yours is so I would definitely check the back, hock and stifles. I've only had one experience with Kissing Spine myself and she would ride fine and then buck. She didn't bunny hop. Another girl's horse would never complete a turn without lunging up coming out of the barrel turn. Of course there are varying degress of KS and symptons I am sure. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Unfortunately, we don't have a decent crop of vets within a hundred miles. I wouldn't trust them. Plus, they charge outrageous amounts. Just to have a dog x-rayed is $350.
But I will look into the dreaded kissing spine. Oh the adventures of horse ownership... |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | I also wanted to add, when he is standing, he always cocks a foot. Switches them constantly. And its immediately when he stops movement. Even when being worked. Yesterday, I felt down his legs and he picks them up as soon as I touch his hocks. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I would also make sure to have the pelvis and hip area looked at.. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | I think you need to find the root of the problem and find a good lameness vet. You need to know where and why this horse is hurting,the available treatments and cost, and long-term maintenance requirements.
A body balancer is a great addition to keeping your horse happy but you need to get a good vet to do a lameness exam and take any necessary x-rays to properly diagnose the problem so you're not just treating the symptoms.
If you have to drive 100 miles you may have to do that to get someone good who will diagnose the problem and get you on the right path. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-12 10:41 AM
I also wanted to add, when he is standing, he always cocks a foot. Switches them constantly. And its immediately when he stops movement. Even when being worked. Yesterday, I felt down his legs and he picks them up as soon as I touch his hocks.
I would almost bet if your saddle fit is good, that his back pain is due to sore hocks, stifle, SI..... |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | Cheapest way would be to find a reptuable lameness vet, even if they are miles away, and get x-rays. I wasted so much money on other treatments, diagnoses, meds, etc. Here is more info on KS:
http://offtrackthoroughbreds.com/2011/11/23/qa-dr-maloney-explains-kissing-spine/ |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-12 10:38 AM Unfortunately, we don't have a decent crop of vets within a hundred miles. I wouldn't trust them. Plus, they charge outrageous amounts. Just to have a dog x-rayed is $350. But I will look into the dreaded kissing spine. Oh the adventures of horse ownership...
Generally speaking small animal medicine is always higher priced than large animal. I would call and ask. Almost any run of the mill vet can see arthritis in a hock-not sure where you would go to have injections done but at least you would have the xrays done locally. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I would quit working the horse till I could take him to a vet and have a full assessment done.
Shifting weight on the back end is telling you he is in extreme pain.
To keep working him would be animal abuse |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 669
Location: Central Texas | veintiocho - 2016-01-12 11:04 AM
~BINGO~ - 2016-01-12 10:41 AM
I also wanted to add, when he is standing, he always cocks a foot. Switches them constantly. And its immediately when he stops movement. Even when being worked. Yesterday, I felt down his legs and he picks them up as soon as I touch his hocks.
I would almost bet if your saddle fit is good, that his back pain is due to sore hocks, stifle, SI.....
me too |
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 Sweet Tea
Posts: 3496
Location: Home of the World Famous "Silver Bullet" | HOCKS |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | cheryl makofka - 2016-01-12 9:33 AM
I would quit working the horse till I could take him to a vet and have a full assessment done.
Shifting weight on the back end is telling you he is in extreme pain.
To keep working him would be animal abuse
As I said, yesterday was the first day he's been worked in the last month.
I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but this was not an expensive, top notch prospect. I bought him to have something to play around on, from a rescue. And no, that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the best of care. But I'm not going to pour money into him either. So if he does indeed have something that is going to be expensive to maintain, I'll probably send him down the road with full disclosure. Maybe that makes me a bad horse owner to some, but I can't afford to throw money at a glorified trail horse.
I do, however, appreciate the opinions and it gives me something to think on. |
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | He probably needs his hocks done did you say how old he is? I agree if he's getting to be too much maintenance I would sell him too. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1367
Location: mi | When I am guessing on an issue as to whether it is soreness or a conditioning issue. I will do a few days of bute to see if the symptoms subside. Then take them back off too see if they come back. It is also a good baseline for your vet should you need to go to know if it was something that a gram of bute a day fixed or just helped alittle or not at all.
I am with everyone else that is guessing hocks though. :) |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-12 9:53 AM cheryl makofka - 2016-01-12 9:33 AM I would quit working the horse till I could take him to a vet and have a full assessment done. Shifting weight on the back end is telling you he is in extreme pain. To keep working him would be animal abuse As I said, yesterday was the first day he's been worked in the last month. I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but this was not an expensive, top notch prospect. I bought him to have something to play around on, from a rescue. And no, that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the best of care. But I'm not going to pour money into him either. So if he does indeed have something that is going to be expensive to maintain, I'll probably send him down the road with full disclosure. Maybe that makes me a bad horse owner to some, but I can't afford to throw money at a glorified trail horse. I do, however, appreciate the opinions and it gives me something to think on.
The way I look at it, your time is money and it is valuable.
Find a good lameness clinic that you can take him too, get xrays. It may save you hundreds if not thousands of $$ in the long run. The horse is hurting somewhere and a complete exam, including exrays is in order. It could be a simple fix. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | CE's wrapn3 - 2016-01-12 9:59 AM
He probably needs his hocks done did you say how old he is? I agree if he's getting to be too much maintenance I would sell him too.
Yes he is six years old.
And he really is a nice gelding. He is so willing and just seems to soak up affection. He has taken everything in stride. I hauled him with my mare several times to jackpots and gymkhanas, and he just really tries hard to please.
He is on THE MM with the joint added in. Beet pulp, rice bran, Noni formula 1 (this was given to me to try, by the body balancer), and cool calories. He gets good alfalfa, 2 flakes/2 times a day and free fed Timothy grass. I've treated for ulcers. Had his body worked on, although they want to see him as soon as they're in town again. Had his feet all fixed up. And still waiting on the dang tooth floater. So, I'm not saying I wouldn't take care of him. But I can't justify going overboard.
Trying bute is a great suggestion!
Edited by ~BINGO~ 2016-01-12 12:09 PM
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-12 11:53 AM cheryl makofka - 2016-01-12 9:33 AM I would quit working the horse till I could take him to a vet and have a full assessment done. Shifting weight on the back end is telling you he is in extreme pain. To keep working him would be animal abuse As I said, yesterday was the first day he's been worked in the last month. I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but this was not an expensive, top notch prospect. I bought him to have something to play around on, from a rescue. And no, that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the best of care. But I'm not going to pour money into him either. So if he does indeed have something that is going to be expensive to maintain, I'll probably send him down the road with full disclosure. Maybe that makes me a bad horse owner to some, but I can't afford to throw money at a glorified trail horse. I do, however, appreciate the opinions and it gives me something to think on.
Not a bad horse owner at all but the only way to really know what is going on is to invest time and money with a vet visit. I live in the Houston area, numerous vets around but I drive an hour for one vet and 2 hours for another as do most of my friends. Good luck, maybe he will turn out to be really nice with a little maintenance. |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-12 12:08 PM
CE's wrapn3 - 2016-01-12 9:59 AM
He probably needs his hocks done did you say how old he is? I agree if he's getting to be too much maintenance I would sell him too.
Yes he is six years old.
And he really is a nice gelding. He is so willing and just seems to soak up affection. He has taken everything in stride. I hauled him with my mare several times to jackpots and gymkhanas, and he just really tries hard to please.
He is on THE MM with the joint added in. Beet pulp, rice bran, Noni formula 1 (this was given to me to try, by the body balancer ), and cool calories. He gets good alfalfa, 2 flakes/2 times a day and free fed Timothy grass. I've treated for ulcers. Had his body worked on, although they want to see him as soon as they're in town again. Had his feet all fixed up. And still waiting on the dang tooth floater. So, I'm not saying I wouldn't take care of him. But I can't justify going overboard.
Trying bute is a great suggestion!
I won't flame you, I've turned one of my strong competitors out because I simply couldn't afford his maintenance costs.
BUT. How will you know if he's got issues unless you get a full work up done on him? Also, what is your time worth to you? How much is your good feed worth to you? Why continue to work him, feed him, or be affectionate to him if he's got soundness problems that you don't know about and you'll need to get rid of him? What if it's something easy, like injecting hocks twice a year? What if it's something "career ending", that truly boils him down to a trail horse? Either way, you need to know what is next.
SO many IFs, that are only answered with a really good work up. I haul 6 hours to my vet, routinely. I haul 5 hours to my shoer on a hard 6 week schedule. This is because I know what my time is worth to me. Other vets, other shoers, just cost me time and life force getting the money to throw at them.
I advise nipping this in the bud and getting a full evaluation done.
Edited by classicpotatochip 2016-01-12 12:32 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1531
Location: Oklahoma | So many possibilities: kissing spine; chiro; PSSM; EPM; hocks or stifles;improper shoeing; ulcers ; teeth.
I would start shoeing and w teeth, blood test for EPM, send off DNA for 5 panel test, Treat for ulcers and discuss xrays w a lameness vet ..
If you miss ulcers, PSSM, EPM , ...doing chiro and injections, supplements which is what most do isn't going to be fully effective .
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | It sounds like you like him so I would at least try to save up some money so I could do some x-rays and get a proper diagnosis. I know it sucks having to do a lot of x-rays but it's so nice just knowing what's going on in there.
spending $1000 to get x-rays and inject my horse's hocks, SI and knee was some of the best money I've ever spent. And I just maintain the injections with pentosan and I nixed all of my joint feedthrough supplements so you might look into that once you have a diagnosis |
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 Veteran
Posts: 189
| Can you maybe take a video of him? I am sure there are lots of good eyes on here that may be able to possibly help narrow down a soreness issue?
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | hocks probrably fusing... which go to back issues.. also Id not collect him at all..right now.. long and low will help his back.. |
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 Ima Cool Kid
Posts: 3496
Location: TN | hocks !!
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | I was actually trying to get a video yesterday to post, and he didn't do it at all...
So for long and low work, how can I achieve that with a horse that "searches" for contact, but then wants to work with his head straight up? He is not very confident with a loose rein. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-12 6:58 PM
hocks probrably fusing... which go to back issues.. also Id not collect him at all..right now.. long and low will help his back..
Would a chambon help with lunging work? |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-14 10:14 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-12 6:58 PM hocks probrably fusing... which go to back issues.. also Id not collect him at all..right now.. long and low will help his back.. Would a chambon help with lunging work?
Id not use it no.. he doesnt need collection work if hes sore.. Id xray hocks
long and low isnt loose and no contact.. you keep horse in contact just supple him down and round and over his back .. and out.. it will help stretch his back and withers and neck and poll.. right now id stay away from collection work.. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Ok, I was just trying to find information about getting one to stretch out and that popped up.
For him, contact makes him want to put his face straight up in the air. I'll call around today and see what they're charging for X-rays. See if it's even worth the cost. If it's over what I bought the horse for, I can't justify that to my husband. |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-14 10:22 AM Ok, I was just trying to find information about getting one to stretch out and that popped up. For him, contact makes him want to put his face straight up in the air. I'll call around today and see what they're charging for X-rays. See if it's even worth the cost. If it's over what I bought the horse for, I can't justify that to my husband.
Just to give you an idea, R&R charged me $90 a slide. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Murphy - 2016-01-14 7:28 AM
~BINGO~ - 2016-01-14 10:22 AM Ok, I was just trying to find information about getting one to stretch out and that popped up. For him, contact makes him want to put his face straight up in the air. I'll call around today and see what they're charging for X-rays. See if it's even worth the cost. If it's over what I bought the horse for, I can't justify that to my husband.
Just to give you an idea, R&R charged me $90 a slide.
Thank you. That doesn't sound so bad. How many slides, on average, do you think would need taken to diagnose hocks? |
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Midget Lover
Location: Kentucky | ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-14 10:59 AM Murphy - 2016-01-14 7:28 AM ~BINGO~ - 2016-01-14 10:22 AM Ok, I was just trying to find information about getting one to stretch out and that popped up. For him, contact makes him want to put his face straight up in the air. I'll call around today and see what they're charging for X-rays. See if it's even worth the cost. If it's over what I bought the horse for, I can't justify that to my husband. Just to give you an idea, R&R charged me $90 a slide. Thank you. That doesn't sound so bad. How many slides, on average, do you think would need taken to diagnose hocks?
I'm honestly not sure on hocks.
They took two slides of my mare's back to diagnose her KS. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | I appreciate the information. Atleast now I have a starting point. |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | for hocks you could have up to 3 per leg. Usually 1 OR 2 if they are good rads will do the trick. I was quoted a full lameness exam including pictures and injections at $1800 at one of the "elite" vet clinics in ND (yes I know it's ND but they know how to charge here too) I thought that was outrageous-got the job done for half of that elsewhere. You're the customer call and ask-they should have a "general" idea as to what their fee's will be (if they do any business at all) |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| As a rule of thumb
Initial set up fee is 50-150, then 25/ view generally 3 views per joint.
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| cheryl makofka - 2016-01-14 11:30 AM As a rule of thumb Initial set up fee is 50-150, then 25/ view generally 3 views per joint.
My vet does not charge set up fee, x-Rays are $60 each. Sometime he charges $60 for exam, nothing if recheck. |
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Bunny Hopping