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Veteran
Posts: 180
 
| I have a 9 year old mare who has begun recently tying up. I have owned her for 4 years and never had a problem, even when she was in a pretty heavy exercise/competition schedule. She got sore this fall in her hocks. Gave her a few weeks of light work, injected her hocks, put her on osphos and she felt great! About a week later she began strange things while being worked. Not wanting to hold herself up while trotting and loping circles and not wanting to move out (long trot/canter). She was very eager to walk and or stop(very abnormal for her.) Called the vet, he thought maybe she was still sore and came out and checked her out. He thought she was fine (didn’t flex off and x rays showed no changes) and felt we needed to give the osphos more time to work.
Put her back to easy work and her stride would change after a few laps at the trot(when her stride changes she gets short in the back end) I insisted we run blood work and was correct in my suspicions. Her short term and long term muscle enzymes showed repeated tie up episodes. He prescribed a month off from riding and to put her on a selenium/vitamin E supplement along with a few diet changes. I began gently to put her back to work beginning of Jan and have had a nagging feeling she still isn’t right. My suspicions were confirmed on Saturday when her symptoms were more obvious. Her symptoms are unlike the majority of tie ups, she does not sweat, her muscles do not “lock up” and she is not in any distress. The only way one can tell is by looking at her chest/pec muscles and by her stride change.
I am at loss for what to do. She is a nice little mare however I am a broke college student and have already spend over a $1000 dollars at the vets in the past two months. I really can’t afford to run every test under the sun on her. Anyways kudos if you read this far. I am hoping my BHW bbs have some insight or suggestions for me. TIA!!!
Edited by gypsykalgirl 2016-01-26 2:10 AM
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13502
   
Location: OH. IO | Is she on a low starch high fat feed? |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| When she began tying up she was on alfalfa hay and getting 2 lbs of Ultium a day along with Trifecta. Since then she has been switched to timothy hay and is getting 8 oz of Ultium, Trifecta(all in one supplement),1 lb of rice bran and the vitamin E/selenium supplement. |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | You can test her for PSSM1 through Animal Genetics for $45. 5 panel is $105 There is a PSSM group on FB - they have a ton of information on that page if you are interested.
Vitamin E must be natural, not synthetic.
Edited by Anniemae 2016-01-26 12:48 AM
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | First off, get your horse off all sugars. Read up on PSSM.
FB has a PSSM page with lots of good information. As previous poster, test thru animal genitics.
Be aware, there is a PSSM 1 you can test for thru DNA. PSSM 2 needs a biopsy to confirm. ( I did not do a biopsy) diet change worked wonders for my guy. |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| Anniemae - 2016-01-25 10:47 PM You can test her for PSSM1 through Animal Genetics for $45. 5 panel is $105 There is a PSSM group on FB - they have a ton of information on that page if you are interested.
Vitamin E must be natural, not synthetic.
Thanks for the info! Didn’t realize it needed to be natural. Maybe that will do the trick!  |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| roxieannie - 2016-01-26 5:16 AM First off, get your horse off all sugars. Read up on PSSM.
FB has a PSSM page with lots of good information. As previous poster, test thru animal genitics.
Be aware, there is a PSSM 1 you can test for thru DNA. PSSM 2 needs a biopsy to confirm. ( I did not do a biopsy) diet change worked wonders for my guy.
I will try and join the forum! Thanks for info! What symptoms did your gelding exhibit? |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Get her off all grains. Feed something like Renew Gold and Alfalfa and I feed Timothy Free Choice. You might also try CurOst Total and add Adapt. Most tke.ups are from too high grain diet ,pain and stress . |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Make sure you are warming up and cooling down properly.. it is very important..and horses that tye up need to move around and usually do not take a few days off. you can do Light exercises daily.. and also switch to a low starch grain if she needs any at all..
PSSM I suspect as well.. Warming up and Cooling is vital .. |
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Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | Also do a search on BHW on PSSM.
My horses symptoms, had to lung him after a few days off before riding him. Had a slight mystery lameness that several vets could not see.
Every once in a while, felt like his hind end would step in a hole. ( no holes at that time )
he he responded to a PSSM diet, knew I was on the right track. Although tested negative for PSSM 1.
The pieces really fell together when I read PSSM 2 horses respond well to a high protein high fat diet.
Edited by roxieannie 2016-01-27 8:35 AM
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Also electrolytes are crucial to proper muscle function. Is she on a electrolyte suppliment? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Put him on DMG. If it ties up again, get a muscle biopsy sent off right away. Your vet should have done this. Give at least a week off if he has symptoms now. You have to let the muscles recover after an episode. Then lightly work and build up. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | Sure sounds like she's either PSSM1 or PSSM2, I'd start with the hair analysis and if it comes back negative go for the muscle biopsy. Take her off all starchy foods and make sure to warm up and cool down enough to avoid issues.
Also, do not stall the horse. If she's PSSM it's best that they can move around at all times to avoid tying up. |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| ThreeCorners - 2016-01-27 6:34 AM Also electrolytes are crucial to proper muscle function. Is she on a electrolyte suppliment?
Not currently on Electrolytes. Will grab some. Thanks! |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| readytorodeo - 2016-01-27 3:15 AM Get her off all grains. Feed something like Renew Gold and Alfalfa and I feed Timothy Free Choice. You might also try CurOst Total and add Adapt. Most tke.ups are from too high grain diet ,pain and stress .
I have been wanting to try Curost! However I can't afford to do that along with everything else at the moment. Hopefully in the next month or so I can afford to try it.
Edited by gypsykalgirl 2016-01-27 10:24 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| RunNitroRun - 2016-01-27 10:24 AM Sure sounds like she's either PSSM1 or PSSM2, I'd start with the hair analysis and if it comes back negative go for the muscle biopsy. Take her off all starchy foods and make sure to warm up and cool down enough to avoid issues. Also, do not stall the horse. If she's PSSM it's best that they can move around at all times to avoid tying up.
I took her off all her grain today. She is now on alfalfa pellets, rice bran, vegetable oil, and vitamin E/selenium. |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| Thanks everyone for all the replies. Since posting I have read up on PSSM. She fits 37% of the most common symptoms. Took her off all grain and will be sending in a hair sample. Neither of her parents have ever been 5 panel tested so it is very probable she has PSSM. Thank you all so much!!! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | ReLeve feed, soak coastal hay in water, warm up slow |
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Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Take her off all alfalfa including the pellets |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13502
Location: OH. IO | mollibtexan - 2016-01-28 12:04 AM
Take her off all alfalfa including the pellets
agree...NO ALFALFA |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Alfalfa will not cause a issue. In fact most vets will recommend feeding it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | When she started having the problem, what were you feeding her? What changes to the diet did the vet make? There are a lot of horses that tie up but are not PSSM. I wouldn't just assume that is what the problem is. There are other forms of genetic tie up disease. Also, just simple electrolyte and hormonal changes could cause it too, without any starch processing disorder. You really need to determine what she has, if anything. Then, you will know how to best manage it. I don't just assume one has PSSM. I've had two that tied up several times. Neither had PSSM. One had one of the other disorders and the other one had nothing. If I had a horse that ever had a tie up issue, I would put on DMG. It will help the muscle function. I also agree alfalfa is fine and even preferred by many for these types of horses. It is generally lower in starch than grass hay.
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 Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4553
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | Give 2 tablespoons of ionized salt with feed. Give pure Vitamin E and magnesium. Without magnesium other vitamins will not do anything as it is a controller of body functions. Feed beet pulp as it will hold water in the body longer. If your horse is not sweating water levels in the body are not up to hydrating levels and that is where the salt comes into play. Make sure water is ALWAYS available and reasonably fresh. If you do this daily your horse will make a come back so long there no disease creating the chaos. Be sure to cool out at walk not tying to rail or stall to cool off. When worked hard enzymes fly to working muscles and stay there by walking they return slowing as they are no longer needed. |
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| One gelding i own has had constant tying up problems and I've had another with something that looked a lot like tying up. I can tell you what has worked for me. Firstly you need to find out the real problem. Secondly: go back to basics, alfalfa or grass hay are both fine for tying up and out on pasture if you can, just watch your protein levels, too high protein is hard for them to process. No oats, corn, cob, or other heavy starches and no molasses/sugars. So basically no processed or pre bagged mixed feeds, I stick to alfalfa pellets and I add flax seeds and stabilized rice bran, HA liquid supplement and Silver lining kidney support has been amazing for both horses. Thirdly: my rodeo mare had ulcers really bad and I didn't know it. She would act like she was tying up but her muscles never got tight...based on what you described it reminded me very much of exactly what was going on with my mare this last summer. I would either have that horse scoped or start on ulcer meds asap. FYI Theres a cheap omeprazole powder you can get from your vet it's $125 in bucket and last 60 days. Lastly: If the horse is indeed tying up I can tell you for the first 2 weeks after giving that mare osphos she tied up while exercised I also have another horse that used to tie up constantly...the starch free and adding silver lining kidney worked wonders and he has tied up once since starting him on the kidney. He used to tie up every time we rode him. It's been 9 years since starting him on the kidney haven't had a problem since. I fed the kidney to the mare with ulcers too, I think it helped. Jmo |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | luckygirl04 - 2016-02-02 8:04 PM One gelding i own has had constant tying up problems and I've had another with something that looked a lot like tying up. I can tell you what has worked for me. Firstly you need to find out the real problem. Secondly: go back to basics, alfalfa or grass hay are both fine for tying up and out on pasture if you can, just watch your protein levels, too high protein is hard for them to process. No oats, corn, cob, or other heavy starches and no molasses/sugars. So basically no processed or pre bagged mixed feeds, I stick to alfalfa pellets and I add flax seeds and stabilized rice bran, HA liquid supplement and Silver lining kidney support has been amazing for both horses. Thirdly: my rodeo mare had ulcers really bad and I didn't know it. She would act like she was tying up but her muscles never got tight...based on what you described it reminded me very much of exactly what was going on with my mare this last summer. I would either have that horse scoped or start on ulcer meds asap. FYI Theres a cheap omeprazole powder you can get from your vet it's $125 in bucket and last 60 days. Lastly: If the horse is indeed tying up I can tell you for the first 2 weeks after giving that mare osphos she tied up while exercised I also have another horse that used to tie up constantly...the starch free and adding silver lining kidney worked wonders and he has tied up once since starting him on the kidney. He used to tie up every time we rode him. It's been 9 years since starting him on the kidney haven't had a problem since. I fed the kidney to the mare with ulcers too, I think it helped. Jmo
that is new to her as well. it crossed my mind if that may be causing it.. she started having episodes when you started that correct ? I dont know why it would but Id take her off it and see how she does.. |
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Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | readytorodeo - 2016-01-28 3:46 AM
Alfalfa will not cause a issue. In fact most vets will recommend feeding it.
Have you actually dealt with this issue? |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Yes. I had a horse with.PSSM. and my rodeo horse now was tying up. Both horses were seen by vet and both times was told to keep them on Alfalfa. Look at the PSSM diets. Almost all are Alfalfa based.
Edited by readytorodeo 2016-02-03 3:39 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Specific Diets for EPSM Horses
* At the time of this writing there is no feed high enough in fat to provide the proper calorie ratios to EPSM horses without
an additional fat source
In general, aim to feed no more than 5-6 lbs of any feed other than a pure forage based feed per 1000 lbs of horse per day.
Feed the minimum amount of feed in the bucket that gets the horse to eat the maximum amount of daily fat while
maintaining good weight.
If it takes a small amount of something “sweet” (molasses, carrots and apples, apple juice, peppermint flavoring, a handful of oats
or sweet feed, etc.) to get your horse to eat the right amount of added oil early on, this is not a problem. You can aim to decrease or
eliminate this small amount of starch and sugar later.
Examples of very low starch and sugar feeds:
Alfalfa pellets
Other hay pellets
Alfalfa cubes - soak in water when adding oil
Beet pulp, low molasses content - soak in water
Complete feeds - meant to replace hay if needed
Dengie or chaff products
Chopped hay products
Examples of low starch and sugar feeds*:
*In general, feeds higher in protein and fat will be lower in
starch and sugar. Ingredients such as soy hulls, beet pulp,
bran, wheat brans, and wheat middlings are relatively low in
starch and sugar.
Below are examples of low starch and sugar feeds, there are
many others. If in doubt, contact the company and ask about
starch and sugar content. Look for feeds no more than 33%
starch and sugar.
If you can see grains in the product it is likely too high in
starch and sugar for an EPSM horse.
Purina Strategy (14% protein – NOT 12% protein)
Nutrena Compete
Nutrena Safe Choice
Blue Seal Hunter, Demand, Vintage Gold
Senior feeds
LMF Stage 1
LMF Complete
Equi-Pro Carb-Safe
Platform horse feeds
Triple Crown Senior, Complete, Growth
Triple Crown Lite
Triple Crown Low Starch
Purina WellSolve L/S and W/C
Examples of higher fat feeds:
These are examples of feeds that allow addition of less
added fat. Most companies suggest using these only as an
addition to other feed. For EPSM horses, feed these alone
along with good quality forage or a daily vitamin and
mineral supplement:
Kent Feeds Omegatin (20% fat)
Nutrena Empower (22% fat)
Farmer’s Cooperative High Fat Low Carb (20% fat)
Moorglo (15% fat)
Rice bran, powdered (20% fat)
Buckeye Ultimate Finish (25% fat)
Nutrena Farr XTN (12% fat)
Re-Leve (about 10% fat)
Purina Ultium (12% fat)
Purina Amplify (30% fat supplement)
Calculate amounts of fat fed from these products by
multiplying lbs fed per day by the percentage of fat. For
example, 3 lbs of Ultimate Finish is 3 x 0.25 = 0.75 lb of fat.
Feeds with 20% or more fat can be supplemented with rice
bran (20% fat) to provide additional fat. All other feeds
require addition of a 100% fat source.
100% fat supplements:
Any salad type vegetable oil, such as soy, canola, corn,
safflower, cottonseed, etc. Cocosoya and wheat germ oil are
also fine, just more expensive.
Cool Calories dry fat product, by Milk Specialties - 800-
323-5424 ext.1156, ask for Catherine Gerardi.
Cool Calories dry fat product, by Performance Hor |
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 Expert
Posts: 2674
Location: Silver Lake, MN | I have a PSSM mare I have owned for 9 years now, she did not start showing sypmtoms until 2 years after I purchased her. It has been a battle to find the right balance of feeds and exercise for her. PSSM horses are not cookie cutter, there are very few that are alike in what their program is. Yes the basics are the same, reduce the sugar and daily exercise. I have recently started to remove all processed feeds, go back to the basics and started feeding Cur-Ost. She had a bad episode last fall and has never really been the same. My mare acts like she is colicing and does not want to move. She will push herself while we are riding so by the time I figure it out and it starts to take over it is usually too late. I am really hoping this new feed program will help her. And yes alfalfa has been recommended due to the lower sugar, have your hay tested if you are wondering. I also feed free choice grass hay.
I do not wish PSSM on anyone...and I am glad they are forcing breeding stock to be tested. I love my mare to death and will do what I can to get her as comfortable as possible. |
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Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | For PSSM 2, I have read that they respond better to a high protein high fat diet. My horse tested neg for PSSM 1 and responded, some, to that diet. All the other extra supliments recommended he didn't improve much. Then I started with the type 2'diet I have seen leaps and bounds in improvement. I did not test because of the cost and the invasive nature of a muscle test.
All the feeds listed above, I tried many different ones for years. But all of them he had symptoms. Some worse some less.
A friend of mine has a type 1, her horse is on an alfalfa base diet. |
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Expert
Posts: 1526
Location: Texas | Let me give you a simple solution
ReLeve Feed
Soak your coastal
Baking soda
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Member
Posts: 27
| Baking Soda? Would love to know more about using it for Pssm! |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | gypsykalgirl - 2016-01-27 9:22 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-27 6:34 AM Also electrolytes are crucial to proper muscle function. Is she on a electrolyte suppliment? Not currently on Electrolytes. Will grab some. Thanks!
Message me your address and I'll hook you up with some great electrolytes  |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Baking Soda is an OLD remedy for tying up and it may have a positive affect. BUT, I asked my vet about it when he suspected one my horses had PSSM and I believe that he said something about long term or over use can cause another imbalance of some kind, introducing other problems. I would talk to a couple of different vets and maybe contact Dr Beth Valentine, a leading researcher of PSSM to see what her take is on it. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | another bump |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bouffie, these are older threads that were being disscused about tying up, this thread is from 2016, I bumped up these threads to give you an ideal what others have done for their horses that tied up. |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | We feed a lot of PSSM horses, both types. Give me a call and I can help with your overall diet. If your horse is PSSM however, there is much more to the management than diet. They can have a long performance life, but they require special care and are not for everyone. And yes, proper alfalfa is almost always a better choice as a forage base, say half, if fed with soaked grass hay. Win at Renew Gold 530 934 9300 |
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 Ms Bling Bling Sleeze Kitty
Posts: 20904
Location: LouLouVille, OK | I also would want to rule out RER. "Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis"
(for some reason this one goes under the rug alot) The low starch and sugar feeds are the best, the spring grass can get them body sore as well. Alfalfa isn't alway a culprit. Alfalfa can be lower in NSC then grass hay depending on the cut and where it's from. You look at cubes for instance. I will go with a couple I know... Danco Forage has a cube that is alfalfa and grass hay and flax that is like 8% NSC. Cube it has Alfafa and Timothy cubes that have less then 10% The FB pages can get overwhelming with negative in a hurry. I followed them awhile and had to get off them. You have to find what works for your horse, Turn out is good, it keeps them moving and somewhat in shape. PSSM was referred to as the Monday Morning sickness, because when work horses got Sunday off, they tended to tie up when going back to work. So if you give time off, take it easy at first. and build from there. Electrolites, Vit E and Selenium are all key. And I just realized this is 2 years old but thought I would still share my thoughts. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 671
Location: Iowa | Wondering how this mare is bred? |
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Veteran
Posts: 180
| Just figured I would upate my post since it got bumped up: My mare did quit tying up about 6 months after I made this post. My suspicion is the oshpos was the culprit. I tested her for PSSM and she came back negative for both types. I tried soaking hay etc, it didn't make any difference. My vet that was taking care of her at the time has since retired and I have switched to another vet. I told him the scenario and he said he won't give osphos to horses with out testing their kidneys first. According to him it can be very hard on their kidneys and he wasn't overly suprised that she tied up because of it. Anyway I retired my mare for other reasons later that year, but she is happy, sassy, and enjoying life running the show around here. She has not had tie up symptoms since then. Hope this info helps somebody! |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13502
Location: OH. IO | Bump |
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Tying Up Help