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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Was he armed? Is this another version of "Hands up....don't shoot?" | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
      
| One FB account said the protesters were not threatening but I have not read anything yet that I consider a reputable source. The article did not detail what led to guns bring fired. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
    Location: Midwest | He was not armed. Whether or not he was complying depends on who you talk to | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | It's pretty odd that I haven't seen any detailed account of what happened from a reputable source. FB is loaded with "eyewitness accounts" of what sounds like an execution. | |
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     Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bear - 2016-01-27 5:43 PM It's pretty odd that I haven't seen any detailed account of what happened from a reputable source. FB is loaded with "eyewitness accounts" of what sounds like an execution.
why is that odd?
You can rest assured that the Powers that be have no interest in you knowing what's going on out there.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Oh the reputable sources will come out with the story.......once everything has been done to be certain everyone is on the same page. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Darla posted this just a while ago on FB..
Dennis Michael LynchLike PageBUNDY SHOT Just got off the phone with a Bundy brother. Here is the story he shared. Aamon Bundy, his brother Ryan, and a few protestors went to meet with the ...FBI. They were pulled over and told to get out of the car. They did so with their hands up. AZ Rancher Lavoy Finicum informed FBI and local authorities he did not have a gun. Something happened, not sure what, but whatever it was shots were fired at Finicum. He is dead. Ryan Bundy was shot as well. Aamon Bundy says they were peaceful and there was no reason for the gun fire. Apparently, ABC NEWS has it all on video. I will be covering this story tomorrow on UNFILTERED and will keep you up to date throughout the day. I HAVE THE EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH MEL BUNDY TONIGHT ON UNFILTERED 9pm ET, NewsmaxTV | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here ya go...naturally, I've been following this closely as much of what they're fighting affects me & mine (it affects every American, however, most don't realize it). I've been ready at any time to change my mind if the facts demand I do so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wA18O_6dgw&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
There's also some videos going around with the 'eye witnesses' mentioned above and I at first thought they were somewhat valid, even though they were far away from the actual killing, with more research I realize that those 2 have been accused prior to this of being fbi informants. Who knows? I doubt it's over. There's no doubt they were ambushed. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Check this one out...you can get a real feel for who the haters are and there's links in the comments. Sheriff Ward must be real proud of his followers...just know that you will not find the truth in mainstream media and they've arrested the one independent that was covering it. https://www.facebook.com/Harney-County-Sheriffs-Office-1053081328076653/?fref=nf | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's a link that's a little more 'compressed'! I want to say that we need to be careful about forming an opinion without facts, afterall, an opinion is only a matter of if you 'feel or think ' that green is prettier than blue. And even if you don't agree with the tactics or if you despise these men for whatever reason, please look at the 'rule of law'...as far as I can tell they have not broken one single Constitutional Law. Out west we have a slew of 'agents' with various bureaucratic agencies who think they're 'lawmakers', note that they don't even work for an agency that has one elected official! They're appointed by the executive (presidential) branch...they come with an agenda and it's all extremely corrupt. http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/01/27/eyewitness-says-feds-ambushed-bundys-100-shots-fired-at-passengers-lavoy-finicum-killed-with-hands-up/ | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 8:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
While I'm reserving judgement just yet until I have more info and don't really trust either side to tell the complete unvarnished truth because both sides have an agenda... Your post sounds much like something a good Loyalist would have said back in the day. There absolutely has been a miscarriage of justice in the Hammond case, and while I don't agree with the tactics being used to call attention to it, our govt has got to be reined in somehow. At least they're trying. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | This is the other story from the FBI and they said video will be released so I am by no way saying they were in the right but lots of things circulating.. http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-occupiers-details-on-traffic-stop/37677078?platform=hootsuite | |
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     Location: Not Where I Want to Be | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
But allowing Illegals to rape and torture and into our country illegally is ok and when it involves Blacks and they riot its ok.. from your liberals perspective anyway.. smh | |
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     Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 9:00 AM 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
But allowing Illegals to rape and torture and into our country illegally is ok and when it involves Blacks and they riot its ok.. from your liberals perspective anyway.. smh
I wouldn't expect people with a narrrow minded, myopic view of the world to understand.
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 7:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
What part of "we the people" do you not understand? The govt is supposed to serve us through elected leadership, not rule us. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 9:09 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 9:00 AM 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
But allowing Illegals to rape and torture and into our country illegally is ok and when it involves Blacks and they riot its ok.. from your liberals perspective anyway.. smh I wouldn't expect people with a narrrow minded, myopic view of the world to understand.
Me either, maybe you should get your head out of the sand..lol because its been there for YEARS. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
      Location: sunny california | funny the right wing people I know are all educated and the democrats generally are not, but some did major in underwater basket weaving... | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | I'd really encourage everyone to take the time to listen to Greg Walden address the House on the situation up there. Please research just a bit what they've done to the Hammonds. People have been trying to go thru legal channels and NOTHING is getting done. The BLM is a very scary agency that is totally out of control. There are many stories like the Hammonds - it's WRONG! It makes me ill that the government is treating citizens this way.
Check out the youtube channel LaVoy had - there is no doubt in my mind they murdered him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4ocLdWE90&sns=fb
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! |
You are right that there's a lot of different stories circulating. A ton of videos too, including Ammon speaking with the FBI, it's quite interesting and telling(it's not a youtube, the only place I can find it is on the Bundy fb right now): https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/?fref=ts
Lavoy saying just the day before that the attitudes from the fed had changed: http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-the-haunting-words-oregon-protester-said-the-day-before-he-was-killed/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=WesternJournalism&utm_content=2016-01-27&utm_campaign=manualpost This one also makes you think:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYsIrtbtWE And this one! http://katu.com/news/your-voice-your-vote/your-voice-your-vote-the-showdown-at-the-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge
The truth is, the fed have been desperate to avoid another Free Waco, especially because the Oathkeepers have more than 100k ready to do what they must...it would/will start a civil war and nobody wants that...so, let's think about it, the fed 'invited' Ammon and group to the meeting they were on there way to, then ambushed them...there's no doubt about that. It's possible that it happened exactly how the witness with Lavoy said, they were stopped, Ryan Payne got out of the pickup to say they were going to where the sheriff was, he was shot at, Lavoy took off (I can't tell whether she said Payne was arrested at the first stop?) cops started shooting at the vehicle, pursuit followed, Lavoy ran into a snow bank while going around the road block further up the road, jumped out of truck with his hands in the air yelling, "Just shoot me!" and they did...in the face, then 5 or 6 times more after he was on the ground, then started shooting at pickup, occupants got on floor board, Ryan Bundy was shot in the shoulder...they stopped shooting when they realized that the 'murder plot' backfired as the protesters weren't shooting back...there was no 'shoot out' as originally reported. The reaction the fed expected and counted on didn't happen...they screwed up. Now they are tweeking their story. They've kicked out ALL media, have a no-fly zone set up and if you look at sheriff ward you can see the truth written all over his face. This is what it looks like to me...so far.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | kwanatha - 2016-01-28 7:27 AM funny the right wing people I know are all educated and the democrats generally are not, but some did major in underwater basket weaving...
Lmao...I needed that! And it's true! Can I steal it? lol
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Veteran
Posts: 291
    
| The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | river runner - 2016-01-28 8:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
^^EXACTLY!!!
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BHW's Simon Cowell
      Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | So funny reading 1dsoon's posts. If anyone thinks that 1Dsoon is what she or he or it says they are, they might want to rethink that. I guess they need someone to stir the pot. Got to have that person every 4 years on here. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! |
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BHW's Simon Cowell
      Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 7:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
You are so full of crap. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | MS2011 - 2016-01-28 8:42 AM I'd really encourage everyone to take the time to listen to Greg Walden address the House on the situation up there. Please research just a bit what they've done to the Hammonds. People have been trying to go thru legal channels and NOTHING is getting done. The BLM is a very scary agency that is totally out of control. There are many stories like the Hammonds - it's WRONG! It makes me ill that the government is treating citizens this way. Check out the youtube channel LaVoy had - there is no doubt in my mind they murdered him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4ocLdWE90&sns=fb
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | river runner - 2016-01-28 8:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
We don't deal with the BLM, but we are very familiar with the EPA and their underhanded crap. #ditchtherule | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:07 AM So funny reading 1dsoon's posts. If anyone thinks that 1Dsoon is what she or he or it says they are, they might want to rethink that. I guess they need someone to stir the pot. Got to have that person every 4 years on here.
We're being played? Say it ain't so! LOL I wondered if POE's Law was at play, but considering Finney is totally serious, I wasn't sure. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:07 AM So funny reading 1dsoon's posts. If anyone thinks that 1Dsoon is what she or he or it says they are, they might want to rethink that. I guess they need someone to stir the pot. Got to have that person every 4 years on here.
Couldn't have said it better....... | |
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 Veteran
Posts: 287
    
| river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM
The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
    Location: In The Land of Cotton | Bear - 2016-01-28 10:40 AM I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
I also have not paid too much attention to it, due to no computer at home to read, (other then phone). And, reading on the phone is hard. I would need to start at the beginning of the burning of the BLM land, etc.
However, I am interested to see the police version of their video of what happened. And, if the man was gunned down with his hands up in the arm as stated by some. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 291
    
| Bear - 2016-01-28 9:40 AM
I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
When I was in grade school we were held in our local grocery store because AIM members and law enforcement were having a chase/shoot out that kept going up main street. One of my classmates dad was one of the AIM members, I remember thinking, "wow, *****'s dad must be mad at the cops today"! | |
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 Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
       
| I'm amazed at how little press this is getting. I'm amazed that Obama weighed in on the Oscar debate but hasn't said a thing about this needless killing. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Here's a good summary of the Hammond case - http://www.tsln.com/news/18837869-113/where-theres-smoke Where there's smoke Expand Photo Photo courtesy Hammond family | Two members of the Hammond family, pictured left to right Earlyna, Steven, Susan, Dwight, Claire, Corbin and Emery, reported to prison Monday for setting fires to federal grazing lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond were originally convicted three years ago for setting fires in 2001 and 2006, according to the Associated Press, but after serving their original sentences, were sent back to prison because of a ruling in an appeals court. Their case sparked the latest outcry against government-held public lands, and a group of militia protesters took over a plot of land at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., about 300 miles from Portland. The story could be the plot for a western-style soap opera. The latest scene involved two ranchers being sentenced to five years in federal prison for inadvertantly burning about 140 acres of Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) rangeland in two separate fires. That is an area big enough to feed about three cow-calf pairs for a year in that neck of the woods. “I call it ‘as the sagebrush burns,’” said Erin Maupin, a former BLM range technician and watershed specialist and rancher in the area, of the long history involving the Bureau of Land Management (BLM ), special interest groups and the cattle ranchers on the Steens Mountain of Oregon. Dwight Hammond, 73 and son Steven Hamond, 46, admitted in a 2012 court case to lighting two different fires. Both fires started on Hammonds’ private property. The Harney County ranchers are paying the BLM $400,000 for the costs of fighting fires the BLM claims they set. “The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area,” said a Department of Justice news release. “The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightening storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt to save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by the BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons,” continued the DOJ release. The two men were sentenced to prison in 2012. Steven served eleven months and Dwight three. The men were charged with nine counts, including conspiracy, using aerial surveillance of sites they intended to burn, and burned, attempting to destroy vehicles and other property with fire, and more. Dwight and Steve were found guilty of two counts – the two fires they readily admitted to starting on their own property. In order to draw the original court case to a close, the two men, in a plea deal, agreed that they would not appeal the 2012 sentence. The Department of Justice news release said arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. Judge Michael Hogan, however, did not give the two men the minimum sentence called for under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, saying it would have been “grossly disproportionate” to the crime. He added that a longer sentence would not meet any idea he has of justice and that he didn’t believe congress intended that act to be applied in cases like the Hammond one. A longer sentence than the few months he gave them would “shock his conscience” he said. The Department of Justice appealed for a full sentence. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to a review of the case and District Chief Judge Ann Aiken went ahead with a full sentence – five years in federal prison for both men, minus time already spent. The fires The first fire, in 2001, was a planned burn on Hammonds’ own property to reduce juniper trees that have become invasive in that part of the country. That fire burned outside the Hammonds’ private property line and took in 138 acres of unfenced BLM land before the Hammonds got it put out. No BLM firefighters were needed to help extinguish the fire and no fences were damaged. “They called and got permission to light the fire,” Dwight’s wife, Susan, said, adding that was customary for ranchers conducting range management burns – a common practice in the area. “We usually called the interagency fire outfit – a main dispatch – to be sure someone wasn’t in the way or that weather wouldn’t be a problem.” Susan said her son Steven was told that the BLM was conducting a burn of their own somewhere in the region the same day, and that they believed there would be no problem with the Hammonds going ahead with their planned fire. The court transcript includes a recording from that phone conversation. In cross-examination of a prosecution witness, the court transcript also includes an admission from Mr. Ward, a range conservationist, that the 2001 fire improved the rangeland conditions on the BLM property. Maupin, who resigned from the BLM in 1999, said that collaborative burns between private ranchers and the BLM had become popular in the late 1990s because local university extension researchers were recommending it as a means to manage invasive juniper that steal water from grass and other cover. “Juniper encroachment had become an issue on the forefront and was starting to come to a head. We were trying to figure out how to deal with it on a large scale,” said Maupin, whose family neighbored the Hammonds for a couple of years. “In 1999, the BLM started to try to do large scale burn projects. We started to be successful on the Steens Mountain especially when we started to do it on a large watershed scale as opposed to trying to follow property lines.” Because private and federal land is intermingled, collaborative burns were much more effective than individual burns that would cover a smaller area, Maupin said. Maupin said prescribed burns to manage juniper were common in the late 1990s and early 2000s, best done late in the fall when the days are cooler. Prescribed burns on federal land in their area have all but stopped due to pressure from special interest groups, Maupin said. As a result, wildfires now burn much hotter due to a “ladder” of material on the ground – grass, brush and trees. “The fires now burn really hot and they sterilize the ground. Then you have a weed patch that comes back.” Maupin said planned burning in cooler weather like the Hammonds chose to do improves the quality of the forage, and makes for better sage grouse habitat by removing juniper trees that suck up water and house raptors – a sage grouse predator. Susan said the second fire, in 2006, was a backfire started by Steven to protect their property from lightning fires. “There was fire all around them that was going to burn our house and all of our trees and everything. The opportunity to set a back-fire was there and it was very successful. It saved a bunch of land from burning,” she remembers. The BLM asserts that one acre of federal land was burned by the Hammonds’ backfire and Susan says determining which fire burned which land is “a joke” because fire burned from every direction. Neighbor Ruthie Danielson also remembers that evening and agrees. “Lightning strikes were everywhere, fires were going off,” she said. Charges The Hammonds were charged with nine counts in the original court case. The BLM accused the Hammonds of several 2006 fires, including a large one known as the Granddad, which blazed about 46,000 acres. According to the 2012 sentencing document, the jury found the men innocent or were deadlocked on all but two counts – the two fires the men admitted to starting – burning a total of about 140 acres. Judge Hogen dismissed testimony from a disgruntled grandson who testified that the 2001 fire endangered his life and that of local hunters, saying the boy was very young and referencing a feud that may have influenced the testimony. “Well, the damage was juniper trees and sagebrush, and there might have been a hundred dollars,” he added. More to the story? During her tenure as a full time BLM employee from 1997-1999, Maupin recalls other fires accidentally spilling over onto BLM land, but only the Hammonds have been charged, arrested and sentenced, she said. Ranchers might be burning invasive species or maybe weeds in the ditch. “They would call and the BLM would go and help put it out and it was not a big deal.” On the flip side, Maupin remembers numerous times that BLM-lit fires jumped to private land. Neighbors lost significant numbers of cattle in more than one BLM fire that escaped intended containment lines and quickly swallowed up large amounts of private land. To her knowledge, no ranchers have been compensated for lost livestock or other loss of property such as fences. Gary Miller, who ranches near Frenchglen, about 35 miles from the Hammonds’ hometown, said that in 2012, the BLM lit numerous backfires that ended up burning his private land, BLM permit and killing about 65 cows. A YouTube video named BLM Working at Burning Frenchglen-July 10, 2012 shows “back burn” fires allegedly lit by BLM personnel that are upwind of the main fire, including around Gary Miller’s corrals. The fire that appeared ready to die down several times, eventually burned around 160,000 acres, Miller said. Bill Wilber, a Harney County rancher, said five lightening strikes on July 13, 2014, merged to create a fire on Bartlett Mountain. The fire flew through his private ground, burned a BLM allotment and killed 39 cows and calves. While the fire could have been contained and stopped, BLM restrictions prevent local firefighting efforts like building a fireline, so only after taking in 397,000 acres did the fire finally stop when it came up against a series of roads. The issue isn’t limited to Oregon. In 2013, two South Dakota prescribed burns started by the U.S. Forest Service--over the objections of area landowners-- blew out of control, burning thousands of acres of federal and private land. Ranchers that suffered property damage from the Pautre fire in Perkins County, South Dakota filed extensive tort claims in accordance with federal requirements, but will receive no compensation because USDA found the U.S. Forest Service not responsible for that fire. Why the Hammonds? “The story is like an onion, you just keep peeling back the layers,” Maupin said. In an effort to stave off what they feared was a pending Clinton/Babbitt monument designation in 2000, a group of ranchers on the scenic Steens Mountain worked with Oregon Representative Greg Walden, a Republican, to draft and enact the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act that would prevent such a deed. The ranchers agreed to work with special interest “environmental” groups like the aggressive Oregon Natural Desert Association and others to protect the higher-than 10,000-foot peak. A number of ranchers at the top of the mountain traded their BLM permits and private property for land on the valley floor, allowing Congress to create a 170,000 acre wilderness in 2000, with almost 100,000 acres being “cow-free.” “The last holdouts on that cow-free wilderness are the Hammonds,” said Maupin. Though some still have BLM grazing permits, the Hammonds are the last private landowners in the area. “It’s become more and more obvious over the years that the BLM and the wildlife refuge want that ranch. It would tie in with what they have,” said Rusty Inglis, an area rancher and retired U.S. Forest Service employee. The Hammonds also lost their ability to water cattle on one BLM permit when refuge personnel drained a watering hole that the Hammonds had always used. Maupin said the government scientists and resource managers working “on the ground” supported the Hammonds’ use of the water but that the high level bureaucrats backed special interest anti-grazing groups. “There is a huge disconnect between employees on the ground and the decision-makers.” She said that divide builds tension between ranchers and federal agencies. In the Hammonds’ plea agreement in the 2012 trial, the BLM obtained the first right of refusal should the family have to sell their private land, Maupin added. The Maupins themselves had a small lease that also bordered the “cow-free wilderness” and the Oregon Natural Desert Association was “relentless in their pursuit to have us off, in order to expand the cow-free wilderness,” Maupin said. The group would criticize the ranchers’ water usage, causing them to pipe water to their cattle, which in turn instigated more complaints from the group. Eventually the Maupins sold their permit and moved. But the Hammonds remained. Steve and Dwight Hammond will turn themselves in for their prison sentences in early January, Susan said. The family has sold cattle. Their BLM permit has not been renewed for two years, leaving them unable to use a large amount of intermingled private land. The family is in the “last challenge” to re-obtain their grazing permit. “I don’t know what happens after that,” Susan said. “We have done everything according to their rules and regulations and there is no reason that they should not give us back our permit. We don’t understand how a federal land management agency can ‘take’ personal private property (checkerboarded with BLM land ) in this manner. “We’ve been fighting it for five years. We don’t want to destroy people as we are fighting it even if it is a BLM employee,” she said, “They live in our community and they have families. We respect that.” The situation could get even more ugly but “it’s not going to be our fault,” she said. “The Hammond family is not arsonists. They are number one, top notch. They know their land management,” said Inglis, who spent 34 years with the USFS and now ranches about 40 miles from the Hammonds and is unique in the area, operating strictly on private land. Inglis, president of his county Farm Bureau and a member of the Oregon Cattlemen’s Association said both groups are working to help gain media attention for the Hammond case. The state Farm Bureau group gathered signatures online for a petition to show widespread support for the family. “Enough is enough,” Inglis said. “We are not in Nazi Germany. We are in the United States of America.” The five-year prison sentence sets a worrisome precedent for area ranchers, Maupin said. “Now the sky is the limit. It doesn’t have to be fire, it can be trespass with cattle.” Another precedent – one for fire that burns beyond expectations – should apply to everyone, including federal employees, Maupin points out. The People Maupin talked about the Hammonds helping her and her husband with ranch work like hauling cattle and lending portable panels, not expecting repayment. Wilber recalled them hauling 4-H calves to the fair for neighbors and Inglis said Dwight once offered to lend him money because he thought he needed help. “Here’s a guy with $400,000 in fines and legal bills I can’t imagine, worrying about my welfare,” said Inglis. “I think that’s the biggest point of all of this – how can you prosecute people as terrorists when they aren’t a terrorist?” Property rights attorney Karen Budd-Falen from Cheyenne, Wyoming, agrees. “What totally amazes me is what these guys did – they burned 140 acres. If you compare that to the EPA spill in Colorado, it amazes me that nothing will happen to those EPA employees. You have cities down there with no drinking water. The Hammonds didn’t do anything like that,” Budd-Falen said. “It’s going to get worse before it gets better,” said Maupin. The BLM deferred all questions to the Department of Justice, who shared their official news release but did not respond to emailed questions as of print time. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM
river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM
The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/
People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire year before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
Edited by cyount2009 2016-01-28 11:05 AM
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BHW's Simon Cowell
      Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 10:56 AM
cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government.
I am not saying you don't but the private land leases and government land leases are two total different beasts. | |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7264
     
| 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 7:48 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
If YOU are DUMB enough to believe ANYTHING the government has to say, I would venture to say that YOU are the "nut job." A tiny bit of common sense goes a long ways. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:56 AM cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds. We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government.
It's so much deeper than even that. For quite some time the collusion between the fed (blm/forest service) and the environmental groups has been beyond imagination. The absolute corruptness is sickening, federal judges who are besties with ceo's of these non-profit organizations or who has a family member who works for them or the fed, a sheriff who's an ex blm agent, blm agents who are trained snipers, ex cia, secret service...the threats and fines. It's a land grab that is full of deceipt, smoke and mirrors. It's not just about cattle, it's about the states, the locals, having no control over any of our resources and being forced to deal with bureuacrats that have an agenda. It's about how we're denied state sovereignty...equal footing. It's about our Constitutional Rights. All of us. If we have none...neither do you.
There's enough info out there that can be used to justify any opinion a person may choose to have! Just remember that opinions and facts are two different things...that leaves us delving into the what transpired to create this mess...who has something to hide? How did it get this far? Who's being the most transparent? Pete Santilli (arrested independent media) posted all the evidence from the trials of the Hammonds, including what wasn't 'allowed' by the judge....it's floating around out there, I don't have time to search for it. Happy hunting! | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 11:19 AM ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:56 AM cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds. We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government. It's so much deeper than even that.
For quite some time the collusion between the fed (blm/forest service) and the environmental groups has been beyond imagination. The absolute corruptness is sickening, federal judges who are besties with ceo's of these non-profit organizations or who has a family member who works for them or the fed, a sheriff who's an ex blm agent, blm agents who are trained snipers, ex cia, secret service...the threats and fines. It's a land grab that is full of deceipt, smoke and mirrors. It's not just about cattle, it's about the states, the locals, having no control over any of our resources and being forced to deal with bureuacrats that have an agenda.
It's about how we're denied state sovereignty...equal footing.
It's about our Constitutional Rights. All of us. If we have none...neither do you.
There's enough info out there that can be used to justify any opinion a person may choose to have!
Just remember that opinions and facts are two different things...that leaves us delving into the what transpired to create this mess...who has something to hide? How did it get this far? Who's being the most transparent?
Pete Santilli (arrested independent media) posted all the evidence from the trials of the Hammonds, including what wasn't 'allowed' by the judge....it's floating around out there, I don't have time to search for it.
Happy hunting!
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
      Location: West Texas | Those federal prosecutors and all involved with this for 140 acres are likely going to Hell, in my opinion. But there the fire will be twice as hot and there wont be any putting it out. They should think about that before laying their heads down on the pillow tonight.
Our Government is out of control, from the city councils on up to the tippity top....but Trump is going to fix all of this and make America great again, right? Fat chance. People on all sides will believe whatever they want to, by the pushers of promise.
Edited by Tdove 2016-01-28 11:31 AM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | MS2011 - 2016-01-28 9:31 AM Here's a good summary of the Hammond case -
http://www.tsln.com/news/18837869-113/where-theres-smoke
Where there's smoke
Expand Photo Photo courtesy Hammond family |
Two members of the Hammond family, pictured left to right Earlyna, Steven, Susan, Dwight, Claire, Corbin and Emery, reported to prison Monday for setting fires to federal grazing lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond were originally convicted three years ago for setting fires in 2001 and 2006, according to the Associated Press, but after serving their original sentences, were sent back to prison because of a ruling in an appeals court. Their case sparked the latest outcry against government-held public lands, and a group of militia protesters took over a plot of land at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., about 300 miles from Portland. The story could be the plot for a western-style soap opera. The latest scene involved two ranchers being sentenced to five years in federal prison for inadvertantly burning about 140 acres of Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) rangeland in two separate fires. That is an area big enough to feed about three cow-calf pairs for a year in that neck of the woods. “I call it ‘as the sagebrush burns,’” said Erin Maupin, a former BLM range technician and watershed specialist and rancher in the area, of the long history involving the Bureau of Land Management (BLM ), special interest groups and the cattle ranchers on the Steens Mountain of Oregon. Dwight Hammond, 73 and son Steven Hamond, 46, admitted in a 2012 court case to lighting two different fires. Both fires started on Hammonds’ private property. The Harney County ranchers are paying the BLM $400,000 for the costs of fighting fires the BLM claims they set.
“The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area,” said a Department of Justice news release. “The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightening storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt to save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by the BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons,” continued the DOJ release.
The two men were sentenced to prison in 2012. Steven served eleven months and Dwight three. The men were charged with nine counts, including conspiracy, using aerial surveillance of sites they intended to burn, and burned, attempting to destroy vehicles and other property with fire, and more. Dwight and Steve were found guilty of two counts – the two fires they readily admitted to starting on their own property. In order to draw the original court case to a close, the two men, in a plea deal, agreed that they would not appeal the 2012 sentence. The Department of Justice news release said arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. Judge Michael Hogan, however, did not give the two men the minimum sentence called for under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, saying it would have been “grossly disproportionate” to the crime. He added that a longer sentence would not meet any idea he has of justice and that he didn’t believe congress intended that act to be applied in cases like the Hammond one. A longer sentence than the few months he gave them would “shock his conscience” he said. The Department of Justice appealed for a full sentence. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to a review of the case and District Chief Judge Ann Aiken went ahead with a full sentence – five years in federal prison for both men, minus time already spent. The fires The first fire, in 2001, was a planned burn on Hammonds’ own property to reduce juniper trees that have become invasive in that part of the country. That fire burned outside the Hammonds’ private property line and took in 138 acres of unfenced BLM land before the Hammonds got it put out. No BLM firefighters were needed to help extinguish the fire and no fences were damaged. “They called and got permission to light the fire,” Dwight’s wife, Susan, said, adding that was customary for ranchers conducting range management burns – a common practice in the area. “We usually called the interagency fire outfit – a main dispatch – to be sure someone wasn’t in the way or that weather wouldn’t be a problem.” Susan said her son Steven was told that the BLM was conducting a burn of their own somewhere in the region the same day, and that they believed there would be no problem with the Hammonds going ahead with their planned fire. The court transcript includes a recording from that phone conversation. In cross-examination of a prosecution witness, the court transcript also includes an admission from Mr. Ward, a range conservationist, that the 2001 fire improved the rangeland conditions on the BLM property. Maupin, who resigned from the BLM in 1999, said that collaborative burns between private ranchers and the BLM had become popular in the late 1990s because local university extension researchers were recommending it as a means to manage invasive juniper that steal water from grass and other cover.
“Juniper encroachment had become an issue on the forefront and was starting to come to a head. We were trying to figure out how to deal with it on a large scale,” said Maupin, whose family neighbored the Hammonds for a couple of years. “In 1999, the BLM started to try to do large scale burn projects. We started to be successful on the Steens Mountain especially when we started to do it on a large watershed scale as opposed to trying to follow property lines.” Because private and federal land is intermingled, collaborative burns were much more effective than individual burns that would cover a smaller area, Maupin said. Maupin said prescribed burns to manage juniper were common in the late 1990s and early 2000s, best done late in the fall when the days are cooler.
Prescribed burns on federal land in their area have all but stopped due to pressure from special interest groups, Maupin said. As a result, wildfires now burn much hotter due to a “ladder” of material on the ground – grass, brush and trees. “The fires now burn really hot and they sterilize the ground. Then you have a weed patch that comes back.” Maupin said planned burning in cooler weather like the Hammonds chose to do improves the quality of the forage, and makes for better sage grouse habitat by removing juniper trees that suck up water and house raptors – a sage grouse predator.
Susan said the second fire, in 2006, was a backfire started by Steven to protect their property from lightning fires. “There was fire all around them that was going to burn our house and all of our trees and everything. The opportunity to set a back-fire was there and it was very successful. It saved a bunch of land from burning,” she remembers. The BLM asserts that one acre of federal land was burned by the Hammonds’ backfire and Susan says determining which fire burned which land is “a joke” because fire burned from every direction. Neighbor Ruthie Danielson also remembers that evening and agrees. “Lightning strikes were everywhere, fires were going off,” she said. Charges The Hammonds were charged with nine counts in the original court case. The BLM accused the Hammonds of several 2006 fires, including a large one known as the Granddad, which blazed about 46,000 acres. According to the 2012 sentencing document, the jury found the men innocent or were deadlocked on all but two counts – the two fires the men admitted to starting – burning a total of about 140 acres. Judge Hogen dismissed testimony from a disgruntled grandson who testified that the 2001 fire endangered his life and that of local hunters, saying the boy was very young and referencing a feud that may have influenced the testimony. “Well, the damage was juniper trees and sagebrush, and there might have been a hundred dollars,” he added.
More to the story?
During her tenure as a full time BLM employee from 1997-1999, Maupin recalls other fires accidentally spilling over onto BLM land, but only the Hammonds have been charged, arrested and sentenced, she said. Ranchers might be burning invasive species or maybe weeds in the ditch. “They would call and the BLM would go and help put it out and it was not a big deal.”
On the flip side, Maupin remembers numerous times that BLM-lit fires jumped to private land. Neighbors lost significant numbers of cattle in more than one BLM fire that escaped intended containment lines and quickly swallowed up large amounts of private land. To her knowledge, no ranchers have been compensated for lost livestock or other loss of property such as fences.
Gary Miller, who ranches near Frenchglen, about 35 miles from the Hammonds’ hometown, said that in 2012, the BLM lit numerous backfires that ended up burning his private land, BLM permit and killing about 65 cows. A YouTube video named BLM Working at Burning Frenchglen-July 10, 2012 shows “back burn” fires allegedly lit by BLM personnel that are upwind of the main fire, including around Gary Miller’s corrals. The fire that appeared ready to die down several times, eventually burned around 160,000 acres, Miller said. Bill Wilber, a Harney County rancher, said five lightening strikes on July 13, 2014, merged to create a fire on Bartlett Mountain. The fire flew through his private ground, burned a BLM allotment and killed 39 cows and calves. While the fire could have been contained and stopped, BLM restrictions prevent local firefighting efforts like building a fireline, so only after taking in 397,000 acres did the fire finally stop when it came up against a series of roads.
The issue isn’t limited to Oregon. In 2013, two South Dakota prescribed burns started by the U.S. Forest Service--over the objections of area landowners-- blew out of control, burning thousands of acres of federal and private land. Ranchers that suffered property damage from the Pautre fire in Perkins County, South Dakota filed extensive tort claims in accordance with federal requirements, but will receive no compensation because USDA found the U.S. Forest Service not responsible for that fire.
Why the Hammonds?
“The story is like an onion, you just keep peeling back the layers,” Maupin said. In an effort to stave off what they feared was a pending Clinton/Babbitt monument designation in 2000, a group of ranchers on the scenic Steens Mountain worked with Oregon Representative Greg Walden, a Republican, to draft and enact the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act that would prevent such a deed. The ranchers agreed to work with special interest “environmental” groups like the aggressive Oregon Natural Desert Association and others to protect the higher-than 10,000-foot peak. A number of ranchers at the top of the mountain traded their BLM permits and private property for land on the valley floor, allowing Congress to create a 170,000 acre wilderness in 2000, with almost 100,000 acres being “cow-free.” “The last holdouts on that cow-free wilderness are the Hammonds,” said Maupin. Though some still have BLM grazing permits, the Hammonds are the last private landowners in the area. “It’s become more and more obvious over the years that the BLM and the wildlife refuge want that ranch. It would tie in with what they have,” said Rusty Inglis, an area rancher and retired U.S. Forest Service employee. The Hammonds also lost their ability to water cattle on one BLM permit when refuge personnel drained a watering hole that the Hammonds had always used. Maupin said the government scientists and resource managers working “on the ground” supported the Hammonds’ use of the water but that the high level bureaucrats backed special interest anti-grazing groups. “There is a huge disconnect between employees on the ground and the decision-makers.” She said that divide builds tension between ranchers and federal agencies. In the Hammonds’ plea agreement in the 2012 trial, the BLM obtained the first right of refusal should the family have to sell their private land, Maupin added.
The Maupins themselves had a small lease that also bordered the “cow-free wilderness” and the Oregon Natural Desert Association was “relentless in their pursuit to have us off, in order to expand the cow-free wilderness,” Maupin said. The group would criticize the ranchers’ water usage, causing them to pipe water to their cattle, which in turn instigated more complaints from the group.
Eventually the Maupins sold their permit and moved. But the Hammonds remained. Steve and Dwight Hammond will turn themselves in for their prison sentences in early January, Susan said.
The family has sold cattle. Their BLM permit has not been renewed for two years, leaving them unable to use a large amount of intermingled private land.
The family is in the “last challenge” to re-obtain their grazing permit. “I don’t know what happens after that,” Susan said. “We have done everything according to their rules and regulations and there is no reason that they should not give us back our permit. We don’t understand how a federal land management agency can ‘take’ personal private property (checkerboarded with BLM land ) in this manner.
“We’ve been fighting it for five years. We don’t want to destroy people as we are fighting it even if it is a BLM employee,” she said, “They live in our community and they have families. We respect that.” The situation could get even more ugly but “it’s not going to be our fault,” she said. “The Hammond family is not arsonists. They are number one, top notch. They know their land management,” said Inglis, who spent 34 years with the USFS and now ranches about 40 miles from the Hammonds and is unique in the area, operating strictly on private land. Inglis, president of his county Farm Bureau and a member of the Oregon Cattlemen’s Association said both groups are working to help gain media attention for the Hammond case. The state Farm Bureau group gathered signatures online for a petition to show widespread support for the family. “Enough is enough,” Inglis said. “We are not in Nazi Germany. We are in the United States of America.”
The five-year prison sentence sets a worrisome precedent for area ranchers, Maupin said. “Now the sky is the limit. It doesn’t have to be fire, it can be trespass with cattle.”
Another precedent – one for fire that burns beyond expectations – should apply to everyone, including federal employees, Maupin points out.
The People
Maupin talked about the Hammonds helping her and her husband with ranch work like hauling cattle and lending portable panels, not expecting repayment. Wilber recalled them hauling 4-H calves to the fair for neighbors and Inglis said Dwight once offered to lend him money because he thought he needed help. “Here’s a guy with $400,000 in fines and legal bills I can’t imagine, worrying about my welfare,” said Inglis. “I think that’s the biggest point of all of this – how can you prosecute people as terrorists when they aren’t a terrorist?” Property rights attorney Karen Budd-Falen from Cheyenne, Wyoming, agrees. “What totally amazes me is what these guys did – they burned 140 acres. If you compare that to the EPA spill in Colorado, it amazes me that nothing will happen to those EPA employees. You have cities down there with no drinking water. The Hammonds didn’t do anything like that,” Budd-Falen said. “It’s going to get worse before it gets better,” said Maupin.
The BLM deferred all questions to the Department of Justice, who shared their official news release but did not respond to emailed questions as of print time.
Note that the fed has 'first right of refusal' if the Hammonds sell their land. Also know that the Hammonds were threatened with a 'tough time in jail' if they publicly supported the protesters. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Copied from a fb page SO THE "CONSTITUTIONAL SHERIFF" WHO WAS SO OPEN TO MR BUNDY AND HIS GROUP AND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT A TOWN HALL MEETING WAITING ON BUNDY TO JOIN THEM IN GRANT COUNTY IS A LIAR HE SET THEM UP !!!! HOW CAN YOU BE AT A MEETING WAITING FOR THEMALITIA TO BE WELCOMED WHEN YOUR OUT ON THE SCENE WHILE THEY ARE BEING MURDERED AND SHOT..........................................................Grant county Sheriff Sheriff Glenn Palmer (left) carries a shotgun back to his patrol vehicle, which was serving as part of a roadblock. Highway 395 was blocked at Seneca between John Day and Burns by Oregon State police officers the evening of Tuesday, H
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-28 11:34 AM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | The question that stands out in my mind is this: What transpired to cause the FEDS (BLM/FBI) to use deadly force on an unarmed group?
Also, I recommend reading "Storm Over Rangelands" in regards to researching the background to Western States Land Ownership vs. The Federal Government. Plus look into the background of The BLM and Federal Forest Service and see where they evolved from. Another item to research is The Federal Land Office and what their purpose was. The answers lie in this research and it is absolutely scary!
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
      Location: West Texas | It kind of sounds like that scene in Braveheart, with the council for peace....
It is VERY telling that this is hush hush except for non mainstream media. If this was another event with other players, more favorable to the agenda, it would be round the clock coverage with everyone trying to get the latest information on exactly what happened. But with this its, like.....just the facts.....we don't know anything at this time... and that is all that is said.
To me that is telling. I would like to know what really did happen, but we will probably never know and that does point the finger of shame at the Government. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Like Musikmaker keeps saying research the ties between the Feds (BLM/Forest Svc) and Environmental Groups. The ties are astounding!
And the corruption of these groups knows no bounds! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2016-01-28 10:34 AM The question that stands out in my mind is this: What transpired to cause the FEDS (BLM/FBI) to use deadly force on an unarmed group? Also, I recommend reading "Storm Over Rangelands" in regards to researching the background to Western States Land Ownership vs. The Federal Government. Plus look into the background of The BLM and Federal Forest Service and see where they evolved from. Another item to research is The Federal Land Office and what their purpose was. The answers lie in this research and it is absolutely scary!
Yes it is scary. Since the founding of our nation there have been groups out to destroy it just as there have been groups out to save it. I see this as a meeting of two such groups. Although it hasn't gotten a lot of media hype...the media HAS been there throughout most of this, they aren't reporting on it, though...it's been kept 'quiet' except for say...Santilli, Talk Network and a few others. A lot has happened, they've had local ranchers who once only visited them at night finally find the courage to visit in the day light...KrisAnne Hall, the constitutional attorney, went and gave classes there last week, here in Utah we had Jason Chaffetz, Rob Bishop, Chris Stewert (Mia Love couldn't make it...other committments) and others meet with the public & Utah commissioners/ranchers/environmentalists (they-enviros-had to be told to behave or leave) & this issue was discussed, that evening 8 ranchers cancelled their permits with the BLM & forest service...suffice it to say that the protesters have had an impact! One in which the fed needed to shut down asap. It is much much bigger and more dangerous to our Nation than anything else right now. Simply put...we need to abolish agencies and nullify laws that are not Constitutional.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 12:00 PM foundation horse - 2016-01-28 10:34 AM The question that stands out in my mind is this: What transpired to cause the FEDS (BLM/FBI) to use deadly force on an unarmed group? Also, I recommend reading "Storm Over Rangelands" in regards to researching the background to Western States Land Ownership vs. The Federal Government. Plus look into the background of The BLM and Federal Forest Service and see where they evolved from. Another item to research is The Federal Land Office and what their purpose was. The answers lie in this research and it is absolutely scary! Yes it is scary.
Since the founding of our nation there have been groups out to destroy it just as there have been groups out to save it. I see this as a meeting of two such groups.
Although it hasn't gotten a lot of media hype...the media HAS been there throughout most of this, they aren't reporting on it, though...it's been kept 'quiet' except for say...Santilli, Talk Network and a few others. A lot has happened, they've had local ranchers who once only visited them at night finally find the courage to visit in the day light...KrisAnne Hall, the constitutional attorney, went and gave classes there last week, here in Utah we had Jason Chaffetz, Rob Bishop, Chris Stewert (Mia Love couldn't make it...other committments) and others meet with the public & Utah commissioners/ranchers/environmentalists (they-enviros-had to be told to behave or leave) & this issue was discussed, that evening 8 ranchers cancelled their permits with the BLM & forest service...suffice it to say that the protesters have had an impact! One in which the fed needed to shut down asap.
It is much much bigger and more dangerous to our Nation than anything else right now.
Simply put...we need to abolish agencies and nullify laws that are not Constitutional.
AGREED! And while I personally question the recreational use of Marijuana, Colorado and Washington have exercised their 10th Amendment RIGHT to nullify unConstitutional Acts/Laws!
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Pete Santilli...the only 'free press' covering this story from beginning to his arrest. This is a video of his arrest. Now...theres' nobody documenting anything. http://www.amtvmedia.com/exclusive-footage-of-pete-santillis-arrest/ | |
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 Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
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| RidenFly - 2016-01-28 10:14 AM I'm amazed at how little press this is getting. I'm amazed that Obama weighed in on the Oscar debate but hasn't said a thing about this needless killing.
No surprise, tho oscars deal is about blacks so he is all over that | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | 3canstorun - 2016-01-28 7:44 AM
Bear - 2016-01-28 10:40 AM I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
I also have not paid too much attention to it, due to no computer at home to read, (other then phone). And, reading on the phone is hard. I would need to start at the beginning of the burning of the BLM land, etc.
However, I am interested to see the police version of their video of what happened. And, if the man was gunned down with his hands up in the arm as stated by some.
The problem actually begins WAY before the Hammonds. It's been building up to this for about 60 years and it's not just here in Oregon. It's all over. I have quite a collection of videos and articles about this and stories that are almost exactly the same perpetrated by the BLM, EPA and other alphabet agencies. These men were not wackos or terrorists. They were just like any hardworking American, trying to put food on the table and do their part. Until they either had to stand up or be broken. | |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
       Location: Opelousas, LA |
Just like they arrested the guy who made the planned parenthood videos for mishandling government documents yet Hillary is still running for president. So much for free speech if you happen to be saying something the government would rather keep quiet. This is just the beginning, wish people would wake up. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's another video...very sad. I 'think' this is at the Hammond Ranch...fire set by BLM. Part of the reason why Bundy and friends got involved. eta: How about the FBI prove that Lavoy's pickup is not riddles with bullets? If they can... https://www.facebook.com/AmericanLandsCouncil/videos/964207073659086/?fref=nf
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-28 1:33 PM
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm |
That's the fire the BLM set by the small town of Frenchglen. About 2012 I think. There was a big stink about this then. Nothing came of it. They get braver and braver. In this video, they burned up someones home and cattle, along with fence and corrals. This is an example of what they do. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | This young man has seen the corruption in the Burns area for many years and explains more of the background.
https://www.facebook.com/saved/?cref=28
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | More background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI9IlziWphY | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Sooooo.....thoughts on what to try to do? I hate sitting by while this drags on. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Eyewitness accounts of the roadblock and shooting of LaVoy. She's kind of rattled. The part that gets me is after he was shot in the FACE and was down, they shot him a few more times for good measure.
http://trentloos.podomatic.com/entry/2016-01-27T14_07_17-08_00 | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | OregonBR - 2016-01-28 12:42 PM Eyewitness accounts of the roadblock and shooting of LaVoy. She's kind of rattled. The part that gets me is after he was shot in the FACE and was down, they shot him a few more times for good measure. http://trentloos.podomatic.com/entry/2016-01-27T14_07_17-08_00[/quo...
Thanks for all your links! I just wish the FBI would...if they can...prove that Lavoy's pickup is NOT riddled with bullets...that should be easy enough to do, huh? Again...if they can. I really do wonder if the fbi started shooting expecting a different reaction and finally realized that there were no return shots and the shooters stopped...out of fear, refusal to murder innocents...who knows. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 11:56 AM
OregonBR - 2016-01-28 12:42 PM Eyewitness accounts of the roadblock and shooting of LaVoy. She's kind of rattled. The part that gets me is after he was shot in the FACE and was down, they shot him a few more times for good measure. http://trentloos.podomatic.com/entry/2016-01-27T14_07_17-08_00[/quo...
Thanks for all your links! I just wish the FBI would...if they can...prove that Lavoy's pickup is NOT riddled with bullets...that should be easy enough to do, huh? Again...if they can. I really do wonder if the fbi started shooting expecting a different reaction and finally realized that there were no return shots and the shooters stopped...out of fear, refusal to murder innocents...who knows.
They unloaded on the truck full of people. I have no doubt they were trying to get rid of all the witnesses. At that point the people in the truck were all on the floor hunkered down.
There's a video circulating of a woman interviewing LaVoy. She is saying "What if the people who took over the compound were of color? Muslim specifically." LaVoy refused to fall for that. But I will contend if that happened, Ovomit would send them food and supplies and apologize to them for the compound being so remote. He'd probably send them DVD movies so they didn't get bored. SMH What an upside down world we live in. Edited by OregonBR 2016-01-28 2:14 PM
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 Veteran
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| cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 8:54 AM
wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM
river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM
The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/
People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire year before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
I know. I live in central washington, in the biggest County in the state (with the smallest population, lol). Our entire County is cattle ranches and farmland. My best friends lease is over 70,000 acres last I checked. The ranch I'm leaving right now (I'm a cleaning lady for them) is similar in size. I'm very aware. I also am two hours from Portland and I will tell you, 90% of the people from West of the cascades just DO. NOT. GET. IT. they might as well be from new york. It's absolutely aweful. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | There are some of us on the west side of the Cascades that do get it. I live in the Willamette Valley and I'm for the farmers and ranchers. If they will do this kind of thing to them, they will do it to me when I'm in the way. It's only a matter of when. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj81iGwTlDM | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is from KrisAnne Hall's fb concerning the Fox news interview with an fbi negotiator. Sums up my feelings right now. Former FBI agent testimony on FOX: They warned Bundy that he would not be allowed to spread his message to other areas. “If you intentionally go someplace the police have told you not to go, you are provoking that confrontation. And it’s very clear that’s what they did here. They were trying to spread this protest, this unlawful activity, to another area, Law enforcement very clearly told them not to go.” So I guess, according to this former FBI agent... the PENALTY for of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Press, The Right to Peacefully Assemble, and the Right to Petition your government for a redress of our grievances is... summary execution by federal agents. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! http://goo.gl/Q5EHkr (a flyer you can print out & a short video) I suppose FOX News is ok with that. After all, there was no shock in Jenna Lee’s voice that someone would be shot for “spreading a protest to another area.” I guess Jenna Lee is convinced that the 1st Amendment is only there to protect reporters and that the government would never shoot a FOX reporter for “spreading” a message unwanted by the government. I have never been more sick and ashamed of my countrymen than I am at this moment. Hey FOX I hope you enjoy operating in a place where you are free to spew your undying servitude. So please feel free to crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you. I feel no kinship with you and may our Posterity never know you as our countrymen. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | KrisAnne Hall is wonderful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE
^^^ about the Bundy's.
About the history of our constitution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2POwIwA8E
Both excellent. | |
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Member
Posts: 23

| No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property.
They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | permanent vacation - 2016-01-28 6:04 PM
No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property.
They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc.
Double standards ring a bell? | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Looks like this will becoming to an end soon. Reminds me of Waco and think it will end up as badly. http://freedomoutpost.com/2016/01/convoy-heads-into-oregon-refuge-including-heavily-armed-vehicles/
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | permanent vacation - 2016-01-28 6:04 PM No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property. They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc.
It's the liberal way...Only their causes are okay. Look what they did to Baltimore...What a joke. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
      
| Nevertooold - 2016-01-28 7:13 PM permanent vacation - 2016-01-28 6:04 PM No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property. They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc. It's the liberal way...Only their causes are okay. Look what they did to Baltimore...What a joke.
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Member
Posts: 14

| VOTE TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by hereintexas 2016-01-28 7:35 PM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-01-28 8:40 PM
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | There was no audio on that video, but it looks like the way Biblia described it. It sure didn't look like he was shot multiple times. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Full video.The FBI has released the full, unedited video of deadly confrontation with Oregon Militia - This is the complete video footage of a joint FBI and Oregon State Police traffic stop and OSP officer-involved shooting of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. This footage, which has only been edited to blur out aircraft information, was taken by the FBI on 01/26/2016 and released by the FBI on 01/28/2016. .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did. Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | I dont know and none of us do.. so we can only speculate.tragic either way.. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM
Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did. Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him. | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 11:29 AM
Copied from a fb page SO THE "CONSTITUTIONAL SHERIFF" WHO WAS SO OPEN TO MR BUNDY AND HIS GROUP AND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT A TOWN HALL MEETING WAITING ON BUNDY TO JOIN THEM IN GRANT COUNTY IS A LIAR HE SET THEM UP !!!! HOW CAN YOU BE AT A MEETING WAITING FOR THEMALITIA TO BE WELCOMED WHEN YOUR OUT ON THE SCENE WHILE THEY ARE BEING MURDERED AND SHOT..........................................................Grant county Sheriff Sheriff Glenn Palmer (left) carries a shotgun back to his patrol vehicle, which was serving as part of a roadblock. Highway 395 was blocked at Seneca between John Day and Burns by Oregon State police officers the evening of Tuesday, H
Are they actually grinning in that picture????? | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Now they're saying he had a 9 mm in the pocket he was reaching for. Why do I have a hard time believing the official line? I do agree that his actions in the video gave them an excuse to shoot. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-01-28 9:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him.
He stopped a the first roadblock, Ryan Payne got out after they shot at him and missed...(and WAS arrested there according to the girls story AND the fbi), they said, and I have no doubt about this as it's what they've held to all along, is that they were going to the sheriff. This entire issue is over who has the jurisdiction and the DUTY to protect the people...the FBI is an investigative agency that was created to investigate the federal government, NOT the people, so the question is, "Are we the people answerable to unelected agencies?" The national gov't is to protect our bordrs, handle international trade, deal with state to state issues. The state is to protect the people within it's borders as well as handle the resources etc... The counties are to protect the people from the states! Very well thought out and offers several layers of protections for our rights. Sheirff Ward was and is guilty of 'dereliction of duty'...lest we forget WHY the protesters were there in the first place...they would not have been had the sheriff done his job from the beginning. So....Lavoy refusing to stop for a federal officer was absolutely expected and within his constitutional rights. Yes, he chose to take a bullet or 6...it's said that he was saying "Just shoot me..." as in JUST shoot me, nobody else. Another thing...the fbi spokesman concerning this video said that after Lavoy was shot they then shot the vehicle with 'rubber bullets' and gas...does that make one bit of sense? Why didn't they shoot Lavoy with 'rubber bullets'? Do they carry 2 guns and all switch at the same time? Preplanned to only shoot 'rubber bullets' at the vehicle? lol...sure. Dumb statement by him as it throws more doubt on everything he says. May God Bless America...she needs it. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 8:33 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-28 9:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him. He stopped a the first roadblock, Ryan Payne got out after they shot at him and missed...(and WAS arrested there according to the girls story AND the fbi), they said, and I have no doubt about this as it's what they've held to all along, is that they were going to the sheriff. This entire issue is over who has the jurisdiction and the DUTY to protect the people...the FBI is an investigative agency that was created to investigate the federal government, NOT the people, so the question is, "Are we the people answerable to unelected agencies?"
The national gov't is to protect our bordrs, handle international trade, deal with state to state issues.
The state is to protect the people within it's borders as well as handle the resources etc...
The counties are to protect the people from the states!
Very well thought out and offers several layers of protections for our rights.
Sheirff Ward was and is guilty of 'dereliction of duty'...lest we forget WHY the protesters were there in the first place...they would not have been had the sheriff done his job from the beginning.
So....Lavoy refusing to stop for a federal officer was absolutely expected and within his constitutional rights.
Yes, he chose to take a bullet or 6...it's said that he was saying "Just shoot me..." as in JUST shoot me, nobody else.
Another thing...the fbi spokesman concerning this video said that after Lavoy was shot they then shot the vehicle with 'rubber bullets' and gas...does that make one bit of sense? Why didn't they shoot Lavoy with 'rubber bullets'? Do they carry 2 guns and all switch at the same time? Preplanned to only shoot 'rubber bullets' at the vehicle? lol...sure. Dumb statement by him as it throws more doubt on everything he says.
May God Bless America...she needs it.
I had the same thoughts. They killed a guy with live ammo and then supposedly switched to rubber to shoot at the vehicle? How did the other dude get shot in the arm? | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | jbhoot - 2016-01-28 10:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him.
AGREED.........Watch the entire video......LE have to "assume" that he had a gun. This guy, who usually carried a gun, refused direct orders, fled the scene, RAN OVER a cop, ran around like a maniac and charged at the cops, reached to his waistband and was shot......gee....do you think, he MAY have contributed to his own death. Additionally, the statements about "rubber bullets and changing guns....how insane....there were over 10-15 cops, on site.....some "may" have only been armed with guns and rubber bullets..... He "could" have stepped out of the vehicle and laid down......AND would still be alive......... | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Here's a petition to the White House to try to free the Hammonds.
https://www.facebook.com/standwiththehammonds/?fref=nf Might not make much difference, but at least we can be heard. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder. What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 8:25 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-28 10:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him. AGREED.........Watch the entire video......LE have to "assume" that he had a gun. This guy, who usually carried a gun, refused direct orders, fled the scene, RAN OVER a cop, ran around like a maniac and charged at the cops, reached to his waistband and was shot......gee....do you think, he MAY have contributed to his own death. Additionally, the statements about "rubber bullets and changing guns....how insane....there were over 10-15 cops, on site.....some "may" have only been armed with guns and rubber bullets.....
He "could" have stepped out of the vehicle and laid down......AND would still be alive.........
You are right...he and the others should have just minded their own business like all good little minions. Stop trying to make this world a beter place, don't stand for own freedom and rights much less anyone elses...and certainly don't upset the leo's, especially those who use our money and our weapons against us...and get away with it every time. Why was Ryan Bundy shot with a 'live' round? Why was the front windshield shot out BEFORE they went off the road? WTH was Lavoy supposed to do? The girl said they fled the first roadblock becasue they were being shot at...so far, her testimony matches exactly the video...the fbi said at first that they only fired 3 shots. Liars. Swallow what you will...live in a oncrete box if you choose...I admire Lavoy for saying, "No thanks". Look at this and tell me he was reaching for a gun...remember, there's no audio, he ran FROM the vehicle to stop them shooting AT it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM
Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder. What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!!
What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers. Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them. Scary direction they're taking us... | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
I'm sorry but at about seven seconds of this video, he reaches to his waist and then it looks like he has "something" in his hand....perhaps someone can enlarge THAT still. pic.....
I realize that you are upset and outraged over this incident but the fact remains....Had he exited the vehicle and hit the ground he would be ALIVE...... | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM
jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!!
What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers. Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them. Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you. | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | NJJ - 2016-01-29 10:31 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
I'm sorry but at about seven seconds of this video, he reaches to his waist and then it looks like he has "something" in his hand....perhaps someone can enlarge THAT still. pic.....
I realize that you are upset and outraged over this incident but the fact remains....Had he exited the vehicle and hit the ground he would be ALIVE......
I watched that video too and it looks like he was going for his waist a few times and it did look like he finally got something out, and I agree as soon as he got out of the truck he should had hit the snow and layed there. What a sad deal... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 9:31 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
I'm sorry but at about seven seconds of this video, he reaches to his waist and then it looks like he has "something" in his hand....perhaps someone can enlarge THAT still. pic.....
I realize that you are upset and outraged over this incident but the fact remains....Had he exited the vehicle and hit the ground he would be ALIVE......
They were shooting at the vehicle before this...his attitude was Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death...no doubt about that, I admire it, myself, he said many times that nobody needed to die over this...our government is out of control. Period. I'm outraged at the willinigness of the people to get over it so easily...because, believe me, if we fail to hold our leo's, our government and our citizens responsible now then we're headed down Merle's hill like that snowball headed for hell.
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | jbhoot - 2016-01-29 10:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you.
These MEN were armed and strutted around with assault rifles DARING LE to intervene for weeks........If they were on a city street, they would have been gunned down long before now........ | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
 
| 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
if everyone ignore this idiot they would go awy they thrive on controversy | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you.
There's a 'ton' of rules and regs that are not Constitutional that they broke...yup. Otherwise, I guess I'm not as smart as you think! lol... It was an ambush...they carefully laid the the trap and created a situation that would allow for the murder of American Citizens that had, perhaps, broken some vague rules, but, seriously, they were not 'criminals' in the sense of being dangerous to anyone except the powers that be...they were and are dangerous to someone I'd say, who do you think that is? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 9:46 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 10:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you. These MEN were armed and strutted around with assault rifles DARING LE to intervene for weeks........If they were on a city street, they would have been gunned down long before now........
Strutted around with ASSAULT rifles? Goodness...I don't know where you got that info. And, they HAVE been in the community, on the 'city streets', giving classes, talking to and educating the locals as to how they can get their ranches and land back, They've met with the sheriff, the fbi, media. I don't understand the visual you must have that men who are legally armed and have not threatened or harmed anyone could be 'gunned down' in our streets...or anywhere! I'm sorry...I cannot express what I feel and know to be true if there's not a 'spark' in anothers heart or head that is trying to 'grasp' it...what liberty means, what freedom and states rights represent. Have a good one...I will continue to hope and pray for everyone. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost.
If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
Edited by Bear 2016-01-29 11:29 AM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-29 11:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost.
The last time he reached down it did look like he had pulled something out and had it in his hand. I think he was wrong should had just droped to the ground and layed there. This may have been what he wanted, sad to think. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled. He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him... Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed. It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow. I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made. hmmm...guess that's just me! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I think this sums it up...for me at least. Good day everyone, may we find our way and it be Blessed. The Great Challenge of 2016 - We the People vs. Corrupt Government - Burns, Oregon January, 2016. There has been an historic happening in our nation. It will either go down in history as a failed attack by a domestic terrorist militia group that resulted in all gun owners who dared speak of the excesses of government being branded as terrorists (just what this corrupt overreaching tyrannical government wants), OR it will go down in history as the establishing of a line drawn in the sands of an agonizing struggle between freedom and subjugation that was never erased and led to the liberation of the citizens of the USA and the re-establishment of a free Constitutional Republic. Which of these accounts is written in the annals of time depends on you and me. It totally depends upon whether we breathe a sigh of relief that we do not have to be distracted by the saga in Burs anymore and sink back into comfortable apathy as we continue to play the game of politics to see who can insult the others' candidate with the most vitriol and 'damaging evidence,' OR if we pick up OUR phones and OUR pens and sound a certain call for the end of this government's overreach and abuse of its people. What are you going to do in the aftermath of the Burns. Oregon Challenge of 2016? In the aftermath of a good man making the ultimate sacrifice for his (our) country? Just pretend nothing happened here? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Just one more thing...from Ammon Bundy. Ammon Bundy – Malheur Wildlife Refuge Case 01.28.2016 – AMMON’S STATEMENT My message still remains. Turn yourselves in and do not use physical force. Use the national platform we have to continue to defend liberty through our constitutional rights in an Article 3 Court with an Article 3 judge. America must understand where we are at. We must make a choice now between freedom or force. Are we going to live free? I will not abandon all that we have accomplished in the name of liberty for the sake of my own personal freedom. We must choose the path of liberty which comes with freedom of choice. People must not be okay with what is going on. I am committed to freedom not force. Freedom not force. We are done with the culture of force. We are done with the government pointing guns at us to enforce their will upon the people. This is not liberty. This is not America. As much as I desire to see my own babies and my wife and to be the loving husband and caring father for my six children, and to be home with them caring for their needs and holding them in my arms, I must not desire this at the cost of freedom. I want to make sure the American people understand that we have a duty in our situation to further the defense of our God given rights. The world is listening. We will use the criminal discovery process to obtain information and government records. We will continue to educate the American people of the injustices that are taking place. We can do this through an Article 3 Court in front of an Article 3 judge. This is the Constitution. And it is ours to use and we will use it. When we were detained, we were traveling to Grant County to educate those people of their individual rights. We were prepared with computers, PA systems and projectors. We have been branded as armed occupiers. But for weeks we have spent endless hours visiting the people in Harney County and surrounding counties presenting to them solutions and choices for them to make. We were being very successful in educating people and getting them to move towards freedom. At the time that we were gaining momentum through education. For this the government once again chose force that turned lethal. We only had guns for our protection and never once pointed them at another individual or had any desire to do so. The people have a right to bear arms for their own protection. We never wanted bloodshed. We verbalized this many, many times and we continue to do so. I mourn Lavoy’s death. Lavoy was a man who put other’s needs and safety before his own. After we were arrested, the FBI agents that transported us said that Lavoy’s shooting would have been recorded on video. We are anxiously waiting to review this video. Questions must be answered. The choice is ours. Are we going to stand for freedom or are we going to fall by force. Statement by Lisa Bundy, Ammon’s Wife – 1/28/2016 Lisa made a statement (audio M4A) ay asking those remaining at the refuge to please go home.She has heard from Ammon and agrees. FULL TEXT: This is Lisa Bundy, Ammon Bundy’s wife. I spoke with Ammon’s lawyers yesterday and heard from his voice that those were his instructions: he wants people to go home; to go to their families. STATEMENT BY AMMON BUNDY – 1/27/2016 First I want to address my beloved friend Lavoy Finnicum. Lavoy is one of the greatest men and greatest patriots I have ever seen. His love for this country ran deep through the blood he gave yesterday. And I mourn for him and his family. I’m praying for you fervently in every prayer. We will have more to say later but right now I am asking the federal government to allow the people at the refuge to go home without being prosecuted. To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here. Please stand down. Go home and hug your families. This fight is ours for now in the courts. Please go home. Being in the system, we are going to take this opportunity to answer the questions on Art. 1, Section 8, Cause 17 of the United States Constitution regarding rights of statehood and the limits on federal property ownership. Thank you and god bless America. END OF STATEMENT | |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 11:46 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled.
He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him...
Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed.
It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow.
I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made.
hmmm...guess that's just me!
Yep he could have already been shot and just reaching for his side, but he could have just droped to the ground, just so sad all the way around..And just a waste of life.. | |
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 Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
     Location: Oregon | Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
There is a link to a petition on behalf of the Hammonds posted I think on pg. 5. We should all be signing. I saw Rep. Greg Walden addressed the House on this very issue. He gave a great speech and it's so good to see a elected speaking on behalf of "We the people" of rural America. Also, everyone should go to youtube and type in LaVoy Finecum. There are alot of video's he himself put up from his ranch prior to this whole occupation deal. The out of control rogue agency of BLM has been harrassing him and his ranch for a very long time also. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group. "Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Southtxponygirl - 2016-01-29 11:58 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-29 11:46 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled.
He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him...
Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed.
It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow.
I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made.
hmmm...guess that's just me!
Yep he could have already been shot and just reaching for his side, but he could have just droped to the ground, just so sad all the way around..And just a waste of life..
I am not standing on either side at this point, you can consider me a fence chicken from here BUT if he was shot, before he reached for his waist/stomach/shoulder what have you, it is very likely dropping to his knees was not the first response he would have had and placing his hand over his wound is a very likely scenario. People just like animals do weird and unpredictable things when they are wounded, especially if they are wounded by surprise. Again I don't know, I wasn't there and there is no audio to go along with the video but I could not blame a man who covers a wound instead of dropping to his knees if that is in fact the correct scenario.
To me he looked very confused and frazzled when he exited the vehicle. He SHOULD have hit the ground at that point but I am sure his emotions were high. I am sorry he lost his life standing up for what he believed to be right. I am sure he did not die in vein. I am guessing the stances that will ensue will be many and great.
There are a lot of pieces of this that just don't make any sense to me, like the sheriff supposedly being at the meeting waiting on them and actually being at the road block. Deep down I feel like they were ambushed, that I am almost sure, was he shot in cold blood? I just don't know but sure didn't like what I saw in the statement from the FBI Special Agent, and hearing someone say there was a K-9 there makes it even more suspicious.
A part me wants to believe they made an example out of him, the other part of me wants to stand behind the LEO, they have orders to follow, they had to assume he was armed. (I read somewhere in this thread that someone had mentioned he never went to a meeting armed, he could have arrived there with a pistol and simply left it in the truck.) I am also wondering why the dash cam or body cam (if they had them) videos haven't been released yet? Why only this video that is so far away it's hard to see detail?
Edited by cyount2009 2016-01-29 12:25 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cyount2009 - 2016-01-29 12:23 PM
Southtxponygirl - 2016-01-29 11:58 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-29 11:46 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled.
He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him...
Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed.
It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow.
I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made.
hmmm...guess that's just me!
Yep he could have already been shot and just reaching for his side, but he could have just droped to the ground, just so sad all the way around..And just a waste of life..
I am not standing on either side at this point, you can consider me a fence chicken from here BUT if he was shot, before he reached for his waist/stomach/shoulder what have you, it is very likely dropping to his knees was not the first response he would have had and placing his hand over his wound is a very likely scenario. People just like animals do weird and unpredictable things when they are wounded, especially if they are wounded by surprise. Again I don't know, I wasn't there and there is no audio to go along with the video but I could not blame a man who covers a wound instead of dropping to his knees if that is in fact the correct scenario.
To me he looked very confused and frazzled when he exited the vehicle. He SHOULD have hit the ground at that point but I am sure his emotions were high. I am sorry he lost his life standing up for what he believed to be right. I am sure he did not die in vein. I am guessing the stances that will ensue will be many and great.
There are a lot of pieces of this that just don't make any sense to me, like the sheriff supposedly being at the meeting waiting on them and actually being at the road block. Deep down I feel like they were ambushed, that I am almost sure, was he shot in cold blood? I just don't know but sure didn't like what I saw in the statement from the FBI Special Agent, and hearing someone say there was a K-9 there makes it even more suspicious.
A part me wants to believe they made an example out of him, the other part of me wants to stand behind the LEO, they have orders to follow, they had to assume he was armed. (I read somewhere in this thread that someone had mentioned he never went to a meeting armed, he could have arrived there with a pistol and simply left it in the truck. ) I am also wondering why the dash cam or body cam (if they had them ) videos haven't been released yet? Why only this video that is so far away it's hard to see detail?
I know we can try to figure this out all day long, like you said we were not there so dont know what happen, just so sad, I'm not taking sides on this either, just saying what my thought's were after watching some of the videos.  | |
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 Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
     Location: Oregon | NJJ - 2016-01-29 10:21 AM Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice. They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group.
"Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward.
My point exactly. I was using the term 'help' loosely and being sarcastic. | |
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  Desert Diva
Posts: 4946
        Location: The birthplace of Honest Abe | I just want to say one thing, okay 2. First the windshield is not shot out. and 2 if he would have left his hands up or just laid down he would still be alive, they didnt shoot him until he dropped his hands down. | |
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 Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
Posts: 5408
    
| I'm not convinced that he would be alive if he layed down. So far to me it seems to be a set up amd they wanted him dead. I also have to wonder if he knew something that they didn't want him telling or if they figure with him dead they get his land. Just some thoughts that are going on in my head. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 11:21 AM Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice. They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group.
"Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward.
I think it's a good time to ask what you, or anyone else, thinks thier AGENDA is? What exactly do they hope to gain for themselves? The Hammonds most certaily do support them...don't believe everything the mainstream tells kyou, they came out on the first day of the protest thanking, hugging and grateful for the support, Dwight Hammond said, "This is not about us, this is about America". The protesters never stopped pushing for the release of the Hammonds nor a 'redress of their grievences'. Please, many of you said you weren't following this and now you know all about it...from where? Mainstream media. I hope it doesn't divide the citizens even more... It's well known (if you look) that the Hammonds were threatened with a tough time in jail if they publicly supported the protesers. People can be so naive and gullable...don't be that! Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions or form an opinion too soon...thanks, I'm glad we have this forum to discuss and share. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here ya go...it's a couple minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE&sns=fb | |
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Common Sense and then some
         Location: So. California | Katie's - 2016-01-29 10:07 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
^^ Agree!!
The website http://www.oregonlive.com has the video zoomed in and slowed way down. It does get super fuzzy, judge for yourself.
I see where LEO gave the suspect multiple opportunities to stand down. He choose not to, fully aware LEO had guns drawn and were prepared to shoot. WTH.
I think there is a ton of misinformation on this thread, which happens when we depend on biased websites for factual information, when in reality they are just out to spin the truth to suit their own agendas. What a huge disservice to the very real problem ranchers face. | |
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Common Sense and then some
         Location: So. California | euchee - 2016-01-29 12:13 PM I'm not convinced that he would be alive if he layed down. So far to me it seems to be a set up amd they wanted him dead. I also have to wonder if he knew something that they didn't want him telling or if they figure with him dead they get his land. Just some thoughts that are going on in my head.
The deceased rancher was from Arizona. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | People - regardless of what you think of LaVoy - please consider signing the petition to free the Hammonds. I don't think there is a way to defend what the BLM has done to them. At least don't let this death go in vain....research the Hammond's story and do what you can to help.
Consider what the government has done to these people to drive good people to desparate measures. They're not doing this for fun, they've been prosecuted for years.
Greg Walden addressing the US House https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4ocLdWE90&feature=youtu.be
BLM/Oregon: Judge Grasty's Brother a BLM Agent and scandals of the BLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrSz9xHYW1w&feature=youtu.be
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-is-the-oregon-standoff-really-about/ What the Oregon Standoff Is Really About Forget the Bundys and "terrorism"—the real crime is what federal bullies do to ranchers like the Hammond family. -
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  The occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge in Burns, Oregon, by a group led by Ammon Bundy—yes, of those Bundys—was supposed to have focused attention on the plight of a rancher family that has been fighting decades-long efforts by federal officials to drive them off their land. Instead, this dramatic act of civil disobedience has done the opposite: amid debates over the Bundy family, their tactics, and ideology, the focus has been taken off the Hammond family, and their struggle to preserve their land and their way of life has been largely obscured. This is their story. Dwight Hammond and his wife Susan bought their ranch in 1964. The Hammond ranch consists of 6,000 acres, grazing rights in four areas on public land, and rights at three separate water sources. They live in a small ranch house—a beautiful structure of stone and hand-hewn wood—on the property. The land sits in Oregon’s Harney Basin, an area first settled at the tail end of the 19th century. While the narrative we are getting in the media depicts the ranchers as despoilers of the land, implacable enemies of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge established by Teddy Roosevelt in 1908, the true history of the region shows that the “cowboys” who lived there and ran as many as 300,000 head of cattle were in fact its best defenders. Without them, there would be no Malheur Wildlife Refuge. As the cattlemen developed an elaborate irrigation system in order to feed their herds, what had been a huge swampland surrounding Malheur Lake was transformed into rolling meadows, wildlife flocked to the area, and it became a favored spot for migratory birds. In 1913, however, the Oregon state legislature passed the Thompson Act, which authorized anyone who won approval from the Land Board to drain any lake and “reclaim” it for development. Drainage districts were established all over the state, and taxes were extracted from landowners in order to further approved development schemes. The Oregon Swampland Act created a “Reclamation Service,” which surveyed and facilitated the drainage of riparian areas, applying for title to lands owned by the federal government, which would then be turned over to developers who envisioned selling plots for agricultural purposes. (As it turned out, however, the land around Malheur Lake was too salty for crops to grow, but since no one had bothered to investigate, this wasn’t discovered until much later. ) In 1913, the year the Thompson Act was passed, there were no fewer than eight attempts to drain Malheur Lake filed with the Reclamation Service. These efforts were thwarted by the ranchers, represented by the Pacific Livestock Company, who contested the water rights and fought the developers to a standstill. As Nancy Langston puts it in Where Land and Water Meet: A Western Landscape Transformed: “What saved the Malheur Refuge from being destroyed by drainage along with other federal refuges in the region were precisely its tangled water rights and the stubbornness of local ranchers.” Yet the federal officials who today preside over the refuge don’t remember or don’t care to recall that it was the ranchers who saved the land from being despoiled. Imbued with what can only be described as an imperialistic impulse, the feds have relentlessly sought to expand the refuge, using every method, legal and illegal, to drive them off the land. As Ammon Bundy explains on his blog, in the 1970s the Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) and the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS ) launched their campaign of conquest: ranchers were informed that grazing was inimical to wildlife and had to be reduced, if not eliminated. Out of a total of 53 permits, 32 were revoked; grazing fees were raised sky-high, and many ranchers were forced to give up their land. The irrigation system they had created and which had attracted birds and other wildlife to the area was appropriated by the refuge. While the original refuge established by Teddy Roosevelt included only Malheur Lake, and neither the rivers whose waters flowed into it nor most of the land surrounding it, today it covers some 187,000 acres, completely surrounding the Hammonds’ ranch. Those who held on, including the Hammonds, were continually pressured to sell, but the hardscrabble ranchers—who had fought the developers, the state politicians, and the forces of nature to preserve their land and their way of life—were not about to surrender to an army of bureaucrats and the urban elites who ran the environmentalist lobby. Their answer was a firm: no way, no how. As 1980 rolled around, the feds came up with a new battle plan , taking a leaf from the playbook of the Israelis, who have seized Palestine’s water and dole it out in dribs and drabs to their Palestinian helots. The FWS was keen to acquire privately owned land on the nearby Silvies Plain, so the refuge diverted the water, channeling it into Malheur Lake. Water levels rose, soon doubling, and over 30 ranches on the plain were utterly destroyed: homes, barns, and the verdant pastures on which cows once grazed were under water. This broke the back of the rancher resistance: most came to the FWS and gave their land away for a song. It wasn’t until 1989 that the waters began to recede. By then the entire plain was in the grasping hands of the refuge. Still the Hammonds refused to sell, and along with a few other holdouts they began to develop a strategy of resistance. Susan Hammond, the matriarch of the family, began to research how the refuge managed its considerable resources. What she discovered was that the ostensible purpose of the refuge—to provide a habitat for birds that might otherwise be endangered—was ill-served by refuge personnel. She dug out a 1975 study conducted by the FWS itself (as Bundy’s blog notes), which showed that the policies pursued by the refuge and allied federal bureaucracies were driving the birds away. It turned out that private lands bordering the refuge provided a haven for four times as many geese and ducks as the federally held lands. Migrating birds turned up their beaks, so to speak, at the refuge and were 13 times more likely to alight and breed on ranchers’ land. One of the reasons for this is that federal overseers have allowed carp to take over the waters of Malheur Lake and the streams that feed into it. Massive numbers of carp have invaded and destroyed a habitat which once contained grasses and aquatic plants that provided birds and animals with a steady diet. No more. As Oregon Public Broadcasting put it: Scientists say Malheur Lake once provided expansive habitat for waterfowl and other migratory birds along the Pacific Flyway.That was before common carp were introduced to the lake. These fish are native to Eurasia. Malheur wildlife biologist Linda Beck says the common carp was brought to the lake as early as the 1920s, likely as a reliable food source for people living in this arid region… Now the shallow Malheur Lake is mostly brown, open water, free of the plants that provide food, shelter and nesting grounds for the birds… The lake’s estimated carp population runs in the millions. The refuge, the BLM, and the FWS profit from this disaster by hiring commercial fisherman to come in and catch the carp, which is then sold in areas of the country where immigrant communities for whom carp is a favored foodstuff buy it. Forget the birds: it’s the carp that bring in the money. Another big problem—one that would come to figure prominently in the Hammonds’ legal problems—is the invasion of junipers, which are crowding out other plant species and turning what were once fields—maintained by ranchers, who regularly cleared the land for grazing—into forests. Junipers suck up water at an amazing rate, and the result is that those fields have now turned into desert. For years, environmentalists objected to cutting down the junipers because it might encourage grazing on “public” lands, and the federal bureaucracy’s “no use” policies encouraged the juniper invasion, which has now conquered over 6 million acres. Finally, the BLM got wise to the problem, but as with the carp invasion, they reacted far too late. This is another reason why the refuge is not popular with the bird population, who are losing their habitat and being driven out—along with the ranchers. And it isn’t just the junipers that are hogging all the water. In the early 1990s the Hammonds applied for and were granted water rights in an area adjacent to the Refuge by the state authorities. The BLM and FWS went ballistic, with the latter challenging the water rights in Oregon State Circuit Court. They lost—and that’s when the bureaucrats really starting going after the Hammonds. Not long after being told by a judge to back off, the BLM and FWS fenced off the Hammonds’ water—a brazenly illegal act. The Hammonds struck back, dismantling the fence: the feds called in the Harney County sheriff, who arrested Dwight Hammond. Charged with “disturbing and interfering with federal officials,” a felony, Dwight was jailed for two days. Brought before a federal judge, he was released without bail: the hearing was at first postponed, and then it looks like the government was so embarrassed by the illegal actions of the BLM and FWS that they forgot to schedule another hearing date. The whole matter was dropped. But the feds had sent a message to the Hammonds—that the government would not be bound by the law. The lawless behavior escalated. The FWS declared that the Hammonds would no longer have access to a road that enabled them to get to the northern reaches of their land: the only road went through the refuge. The road was barricaded, and FWS officials threatened the Hammonds, warning that there would be consequences if they tried to use the road. But that tactic backfired in the feds’ faces when it was discovered that the road was owned by Harney County, not the refuge. Undeterred, the Energizer Bunnies of the federal bureaucracy revoked the Hammonds’ grazing permit without cause, bypassing any legal procedures. According to Oregon state law, owners of livestock are not required to keep herds within a fence or control their movements. But the law doesn’t apply to vindictive bureaucrats: a federal judge ordered the Hammonds either to fence their land or stop grazing. They were effectively forced to give up grazing on half their land. This was a major blow: it forced them to sell their ranch in order to feed their cattle. They purchased property with sufficient grass and with grazing rights on “public” land. The government soon counterattacked, however, and the grazing rights were arbitrarily revoked. When the new owner of the Hammond ranch suffered a heart attack, the Hammonds managed to reacquire it. But their battle was far from over. Indeed, it had just begun. In early fall 2001, the Hammonds called the local fire department and received permission for a controlled burn on their own property: this is a common method of controlling invasive growth, and in this case it was aimed at getting rid of the junipers that were invading from the neighboring refuge—where little effort had been made to eradicate them—and gaining a foothold on the Hammond ranch. That fire burned out of control onto refuge land; the Hammonds put it out with no help from the BLM or refuge personnel. They didn’t hear from the BLM or any other government agency until charges were brought 13 years later. Remarking on the incident, the judge said: Well, the damage was juniper trees and sagebrush, and there might have been a hundred dollars [in damages], but it doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t affect the guidelines, and I am not sure how much sagebrush a hundred dollars worth is. But I think … mother nature’s probably taken care of any injury. The Tri-State Livestock News quotes Susan Hammond as saying: “We usually called the interagency fire outfit—a main dispatch—to be sure someone wasn’t in the way or that weather wouldn’t be a problem.” Susan said her son Steven was told that the BLM was conducting a burn of their own somewhere in the region the same day, and that they believed there would be no problem with the Hammonds going ahead with their planned fire. The court transcript includes a recording from that phone conversation. Court testimony from a prosecution witness, a range conservationist, elicited the statement that the burn had “improved the conditions on the BLM property.” Environmentalists had put pressure on the BLM to cease controlled burns, and the conditions on the range had deteriorated, so that not only did the juniper invasion increase but fires that did break out due to lightning or other factors burned much hotter, sterilizing the soil and leading to a profusion of weeds. When the problems became all too apparent, the BLM started a program of controlled burns. According to Erin Maupin, a former BLM watershed specialist and range technician, due to the intermingling of public and private land, “collaborative burns” are much more effective, as opposed to trying to follow property lines. This is precisely what the first fire was all about: not “arson,” but rational land management. The second fire Dwight and Steven Hammond were charged with starting occurred in 2006: it happened during a lightning storm, and according to Susan Hammond the reason was to protect their home and property: “There was fire all around them that was going to burn our house and all of our trees and everything. The opportunity to set a back-fire was there and it was very successful. It saved a bunch of land from burning.” According to the feds, a grand total of one acre of federal land was affected, although how this conclusion was reached is hard to say because fires were burning all over the place during the fierce lightning storm. The Hammonds’ neighbor, Ruthie Danielson, confirms this: “Lightning strikes were everywhere, fires were going off,” she said. The morning after the fire, according to Ammon Bundy’s write-up, BLM agents filed a police report with the Harney County Sheriff’s office, charging Dwight and Steven Hammond with arson. A few days passed without any action on the part of the authorities, until a BLM ranger called Steven and asked to meet with him in the town of Frenchglen “for coffee.” As Steven was leaving the meeting he was intercepted by the sheriff and a BLM ranger, arrested, and told to go back and collect his father, who was also being charged. Both were booked on several charges—essentially the same charges that would be brought five years later, minus the “terrorism” angle. The case was reviewed by the district attorney, who deemed the accusations unworthy of prosecution: all charges were dropped. In a just world, that would have been the end of the story. In the world we are living in, however, it was the beginning of the end for the Hammonds. In 2011, the U.S. attorney’s office, responding to agitation from the usual suspects, filed charges against Dwight and Steven Hammond under the Clinton era “Anti-Terrorism Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996,” which carries a minimum sentence of five years in prison for doing damage to federal property. The “Death Penalty” part is included because that’s the maximum penalty: the bill was passed in response to the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building. The government brought nine charges against the Hammonds, including several alleged arsons over the years, conspiracy, utilization of aerial surveillance to further a “terrorist” act, and trying to destroy government property including vehicles and fences. Locals were kept off the jury: some jurors had to drive for close to four hours from Pendleton, 196 miles away. The prosecution was given all the time in the world to make their case: the defense was given a single day, and much testimony was disallowed. However, the testimony of Dwight’s estranged grandson, Dusty Hammond, who was 13 at the time of the fires, and was 24 when he testified, was permitted. Dusty had been having mental problems for some time, and the judge himself admitted that the grandson’s testimony was “unreliable.” Dusty’s testimony was the basis for the government’s assertion that the first fire was started in order to cover up evidence of poaching on federal land: he claimed that he was told to start a fire. Neither judge nor jury bought this testimony, yet it is being broadcast all over the place as “proof” the Hammonds are malicious “arsonists.” On June 22, 2012, the jury threw out or deadlocked on all the charges but two—the two fires the Hammonds admitted to setting. In sentencing them, Judge Michael Hogan declined to impose the minimum sentence, which is five years under the “Anti-Terrorism” statute, averring it would have been “grossly disproportionate” to the crime. He remarked that such a sentence would “shock my conscience,” and furthermore contended that Congress never meant to apply the act in cases like this one. Dwight Hammond was sentenced to three months: Steven was given a year and a day. The sentence was handed down contingent on the understanding that they would not appeal the court’s decision. They were also fined $400,000—this in spite of the judge’s admission that the total damage amounted to about $100. Failure to pay the fine would result in confiscation of their ranch by the BLM, which had been the goal of the government’s long war against the Hammonds all along. Both served their sentences and returned to the community. But the government wasn’t through with them—not by a long shot. In June 2014 Refuge Manager Chad Karges, BLM Field Manager Rhonda Karges, his wife, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni, who had prosecuted the Hammond case, filed an appeal of the sentencing with the Ninth District Federal Court, demanding that the full sentence of five years mandated by the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act be imposed. With Dwight and Steven out of the way, the ranch would be sure to fall into the government’s hands: failure to pay the $400,000 fine by the end of 2015 would result in confiscation of their ranch. To my knowledge, they’ve only paid half that. Furthermore, the Hammonds were forced to give the BLM the right of first refusal if they ever did sell their ranch in order to pay the fine. In either case, the land-grabbing BLM will have achieved their decades-long goal: seizure of the Hammond ranch. There is no resentencing in a case of this kind without the approval of the Justice Department: clearly the intent here was to make an example of the Hammonds, to send a message that any resistance to the federal government’s aggressive tactics in their long war against Western ranchers will be mercilessly crushed. The Ninth District judge, one Ann Aiken, got the message and ruled that the Hammonds be returned to jail for the full five year term, minus time already served. Another factor in the unusual sentencing appeal was the stance of Amanda Marshall, former U.S. attorney for Oregon, who while still in office denounced the original sentence as “ unlawful.” It was she who formally authorized the appeal. Marshall has an interesting history: she had never served as a federal prosecutor prior to her appointment by the Obama administration. Her previous employment was as a “children’s advocate” in the Oregon Department of Justice. Prior to that she was a deputy district attorney in Oregon’s Coos County. She resigned her U.S. attorney position last April, claiming to be suffering from “ post-traumatic stress disorder.” The “trauma” here was no doubt the scandal surrounding her stalking of Assistant U.S. Attorney Scott M. Kerin, who says she had been bombarding him with unwanted text messages, phone calls, and other communications for over a year. Kerin filed a hostile workplace environment complaint against her, claiming she followed him after work hours, and drove by his house, in addition to sending numerous emails. The Justice Department launched an investigation, withdrawing Marshall’s security clearance and essentially making it impossible for her to continue as U.S. attorney. A U.S. attorney whose mental stability is at least questionable, a vindictive cabal of government bureaucrats intent on stealing property they have long coveted under color of “law,” and now a howling lynch mob of left-leaning Twitterers, who hate rural folks and especially ranchers who are professed Christians—these are the people who are celebrating the martyrdom of the Hammonds, denouncing them as “arsonists” and “welfare bums” out to steal public land. While the focus among vaunted “civil libertarians” is the resentencing and mandatory minimums, the fact is that the Hammonds should never have been prosecuted to begin with. Their long agony is a clear case of government persecution motivated by avarice and politics—for this is a warning to anyone who opposes the federal government’s campaign to retain and expand its ownership of huge swathes of Western land. Consider the scope of their Western empire: they currently control more than 80 percent of Nevada; approximately half of California, Utah, Oregon, Idaho, Arizona, and New Mexico; 42 percent of Wyoming; 36 percent of Colorado; and 30 percent of Washington and Montana. And, as the Hammond case dramatizes, they want more. The response of the defenders who are rallying around the Hammonds and demanding the privatization of the refuge is an act of civil disobedience that is both heroic and pathetic: the former because it limns what would have been the response of ordinary Americans in better days, and the latter because those days are long gone. I would not be in the least surprised if the feds go in there, guns blazing, while our urban elites and their lower-middle-class imitators dance around the resulting bonfire, just as they did during the Waco massacre. Justin Raimondo is editorial director of Antiwar.com. This post has been updated. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Anniemae - 2016-01-29 1:29 PM euchee - 2016-01-29 12:13 PM I'm not convinced that he would be alive if he layed down. So far to me it seems to be a set up amd they wanted him dead. I also have to wonder if he knew something that they didn't want him telling or if they figure with him dead they get his land. Just some thoughts that are going on in my head. The deceased rancher was from Arizona.
Who is also fighting for HIS land...or was, I should say. That's why he was involved in this...he was offering his support & knowledge to FELLOW ranchers. | |
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 I Drink Whiskey in Boys Shorts
Posts: 1882
       
| Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM
As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost.
If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
If these had been some black punks, then there would already be riots over this incident. It has happened time and again.
I am not certain where I stand on this incident just yet, because there is no clear cut footage. Most of what I have seen is to hard to discern what is actually happening and there is no audio. I want to see actual crime scene photos, real video footage complete with audio. I would be willing to bet that we will never see it though. I won't even speculate as to what went down due to the crummy videos.
I have to ask though. Lavoy has been labeled as a true patriot. Could he perhaps have decided to sacrifice himself to get people to pay attention to what is happening in our country? Had he had laid down quietly for this incident and been taken into custody, what would have come of this situation? Not a whole lot! It would have been a flash in the pan. His death has sparked a lot of interest now. There are going to be a ton of questions that have to be answered and it has forced people to pay attention.
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | NJJ - 2016-01-29 10:21 AM
Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group. "Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward.
Are you really that gullible? I've been reading and viewing all the material I could about this and what caused it for several weeks now. It was raised in one of those many pieces of material that the "law" threatened the Hammonds with a "tough" time in prison and that something might happen to Susie Hammond. You don't think that is plausible? I think you're unwillingness to listen and accept that there could be something more to this is disappointing. There is 48596165651356516 pieces of material on federal government alphabet men's overreach and lawlessness online. It's not just this one incident or just the last few years. It's been growing and happening to many people over several decades. They are more emboldened than ever because of the current social situation. Nothing makes sense anymore. Down is up. Lie is truth. Black is white. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm |
I just watched that clip again. Everyone is horrified LaVoy almost hit a cop. But the cop was by the police vehicle until LaVoy went around that vehicle. Lavoy would not have seen him in time to react either to hit or not hit him. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM
Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome.
Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is Deb...she's with Pete Santilli, who was arrested...he's the only media that has covered this from the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswKblD41ww | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | OregonBR - 2016-01-29 4:34 PM I just watched that clip again. Everyone is horrified LaVoy almost hit a cop. But the cop was by the police vehicle until LaVoy went around that vehicle. Lavoy would not have seen him in time to react either to hit or not hit him.
Watch it again...the cop jumped out in front of the vehicle. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | OregonBR - 2016-01-29 4:39 PM geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome. Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have.
I just pray that people have a set of balls doesn't let the government come and take their guns. I don't care to be a slave to anyone. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 3:42 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 4:34 PM I just watched that clip again. Everyone is horrified LaVoy almost hit a cop. But the cop was by the police vehicle until LaVoy went around that vehicle. Lavoy would not have seen him in time to react either to hit or not hit him.
Watch it again...the cop jumped out in front of the vehicle.
That's what I said. The cop jumped out from beside the cop vehicle. There was no intention by LaVoy to hit him. There was no time to even react. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | geronabean - 2016-01-29 3:50 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 5:39 PM
geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM
Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome.
Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have.
Lolol the Govt DOES want what I have. Ever heard of eminent domain? Well ive become a pro about it, yet Ive still not putt myself in unlawful situations.
You've fought them in the court? Because all these ranchers have tried to fight the government in the court. The deck is stacked against them. The judge, prosecuter and the BLM is all willing to say and do anything to take the land away. The Hammonds were using commonly used techniques to try to manage (stop from burning down their house and feed for the cattle) a fire that was not set by them. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | geronabean - 2016-01-29 3:50 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 5:39 PM
geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM
Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome.
Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have.
Lolol the Govt DOES want what I have. Ever heard of eminent domain? Well ive become a pro about it, yet Ive still not put myself in unlawful situations.
Just a thought. Because we live in a Republic and not a democracy, the individual rights are more important than the government or the group. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video.
Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy?
The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM
Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy?
The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS.
So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-29 7:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie.
In this case you've got the dangerous douche bags confused! Lmao...seriously! | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-29 8:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie.
The FBI ambushed them. They were suppose to be going to a meeting and the sheriff they were suppose to be meeting wasn't where he was suppose to be. I find that a problem. How can anyone trust the government anymore? I know I don't. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | I don't blame the officers for this shooting. I blame the government for setting up the ambush and putting these officers in this position. Watching the video...I would have shot. If I was the authority in control...I would have left them alone as they would have got tired and left. Funny how all those Liberal Occupiers in New York and all those looting and destroying in Baltimore were left alone. What harm were they doing being in a closed refuge? Nothing. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 7:20 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie. In this case you've got the dangerous douche bags confused! Lmao...seriously!
Everyone's ignoring the fact that they were already 'under fire'. He was shot before his hands came down...they had been shot at at the FIRST stop! It was an ambush! I shouldn't say it, but, it'll come out anyhow...the citizens in Grant County put together the meeting because they are all sick & tired of living in fear from the fed and the corrupt bs, judge gasty, from harney county, set up the ambush...they were trying to 'contain' the anti-faux-government ans it was gaining momentum, kinda like Trump, so they set up the ambush and assassinated Lavoy...they only stopped there because nobody was shooting back! How could they call it a 'shoot out' as they originally claimed? We all better get a lot more paranoid...cuz it's fixing to hit. btw: the CITIZENS of Burns are having a protest next Monday and have asked the Oathkeepers, the lll Perceters and all patriotic Americans to come, unarmed, so they may have physical support when demanding the sheriff & the judge resign and that ALL federal law enforcement leave their town asap. THEY finally have the courage to take back their community...and as sad as it is, it took a life to get there. Why would we question that? | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 8:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 7:20 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie. In this case you've got the dangerous douche bags confused! Lmao...seriously! Everyone's ignoring the fact that they were already 'under fire'. He was shot before his hands came down...they had been shot at at the FIRST stop! It was an ambush!
I shouldn't say it, but, it'll come out anyhow...the citizens in Grant County put together the meeting because they are all sick & tired of living in fear from the fed and the corrupt bs, judge gasty, from harney county, set up the ambush...they were trying to 'contain' the anti-faux-government ans it was gaining momentum, kinda like Trump, so they set up the ambush and assassinated Lavoy...they only stopped there because nobody was shooting back! How could they call it a 'shoot out' as they originally claimed?
We all better get a lot more paranoid...cuz it's fixing to hit.
btw: the CITIZENS of Burns are having a protest next Monday and have asked the Oathkeepers, the lll Perceters and all patriotic Americans to come, unarmed, so they may have physical support when demanding the sheriff & the judge resign and that ALL federal law enforcement leave their town asap.
THEY finally have the courage to take back their community...and as sad as it is, it took a life to get there. Why would we question that?
I stayed open minded on this until there were more facts. The facts are in. Our government has more blood on its hands and I think they just opened a real can of worms they wished they hadn't. It's time all of those western states get back their land. I see Utah is trying to do it right now. I pray they succeed. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 320
   Location: Dubuque,IA | I don't know how to copy and paste but there is a lot og info out there and articles fromn the new york times that htere is uranium under all that land and the Clintons are behind selling out a lot of rights to the russians and the government needs to get control of that land. Then it all makes sense!! The governemnt we currently have!!! | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | This sums it up...
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12651294_1505426829765387_1460055864090368993_n.jpg (34KB - 194 downloads)
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/
Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | raisinrox - 2016-01-29 8:49 PM I don't know how to copy and paste but there is a lot og info out there and articles fromn the new york times that htere is uranium under all that land and the Clintons are behind selling out a lot of rights to the russians and the government needs to get control of that land. Then it all makes sense!! The governemnt we currently have!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_ | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | raisinrox - 2016-01-29 6:49 PM
I don't know how to copy and paste but there is a lot og info out there and articles fromn the new york times that htere is uranium under all that land and the Clintons are behind selling out a lot of rights to the russians and the government needs to get control of that land. Then it all makes sense!! The governemnt we currently have!!!
That's what we've been trying to say. Thanks.  | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | As far as the multiple gunshot wounds, time will tell. I didn't see any evidence of multiple gunshots. He reached for his left side with his right hand and dropped like a rock. It should be pretty easy to tell if he was shot while both hands were raised. If he only has the one fatal wound on autopsy, then the FBI's version is going to be pretty hard to disprove, particularly since he was packing a loaded weapon. Even if he has more than one wound, it will still be hard to disprove their version.
This Russia-Clinton connection is extremely interesting, particularly considering the source, and in light of the most recent revelations about the extremely top secret emails and the quarrel heating up between the State Dept and CIA. The Democrat power brokers must be feeling the heat, because it's very late to get a Hillary replacement. | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | You know that the Feds had plenty of video cameras on this shootout that were close. The video we have all seen is far away. We want to see and hear the close up version. You can not protest against the Federal Government and win. They may be able to have guns as the 2nd Amendment buy when you take over a facility with guns that is threatening to the Government. I can not believe that they just didn't have dogs take him down but I believe the Government were just planning on killing them. | |
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Cold hands and Warm Heart
      Location: oklahoma | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-01-29 10:52 PM You know that the Feds had plenty of video cameras on this shootout that were close. The video we have all seen is far away. We want to see and hear the close up version. You can not protest against the Federal Government and win. They may be able to have guns as the 2nd Amendment buy when you take over a facility with guns that is threatening to the Government. I can not believe that they just didn't have dogs take him down but I believe the Government were just planning on killing them.
There's a zoomed in version on YouTube. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | geronabean - 2016-01-29 5:50 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 5:39 PM geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome. Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have. Lolol the Govt DOES want what I have. Ever heard of eminent domain? Well ive become a pro about it, yet Ive still not put myself in unlawful situations.
Please don't compare what they were protesting to eminent domain. These people were tried in court on ridiculous charges, jailed....did their time.....and then retried for the same **** charges and sent back to prison. The BLM fights dirty, they don't seize your land, but they make your life hell. If you'd like to know the whole story on the Hammonds, I'd be happy to send it to you. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM
https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/
Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles.
Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM
https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/
Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles.
Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[...
If you go to Oregonlive.com and watch interviews with Finicum without his coat on, you will see he wears a shoulder holster, which of course would mean his loaded weapon would be on his left side where he could reach it with his right hand. The gun in his "pocket" is most certainly a mischaracterization of where his pistol was actually located. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer.
Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Im going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow. https://www.facebook.com/steve.worthington.5/videos/1107996929231308/?fref=nf | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol. It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about... It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional. It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money... We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap... | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement.
It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all. | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24952
             Location: WYOMING | Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM
I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement.
It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed.
Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:41 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[... If you go to Oregonlive.com and watch interviews with Finicum without his coat on, you will see he wears a shoulder holster, which of course would mean his loaded weapon would be on his left side where he could reach it with his right hand. The gun in his "pocket" is most certainly a mischaracterization of where his pistol was actually located.
As much as I hate to agree with Finney....lol.....I agree that he was reaching under the left side of his coat....and YES....I have watched and looked at every darn video (enhanced, etc).....
What the government is doing is wrong but what these men did was wrong TOO ! ! ! And it ended up with one of them being killed! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all.
You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won?
You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:19 AM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all.
You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it.
Then, of course, there is this looming out there, and it's possible relationship to recent events. Far fetched? Maybe. Still, something to ponder. How is this related to Uranium? This story was originally from none other than the New York Times. Go figure.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/23/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol. It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about... It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional. It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money... We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it.
It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else.
Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis). | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:30 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol.
It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about...
It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional.
It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money...
We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it. It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else. Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis ).
Do your research - the Hammonds DID take the plea deal!!! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Please please watch this before it's removed...again. Who's the Virus? I'm going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for.
THIS is what it's about...nothing else. Please watch it...30 minutes out of your life, it will shed light on the fight! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 When we fall victim to lies it hurts everyone...most of this land out here that's considered 'public' is not habitable, can't be 'developed, mother nature made sure of that! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:30 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol.
It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about...
It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional.
It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money...
We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it. It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else. Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis ).
Are the 'Politicans' highlighted not part of Government? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| We all digress. I have to go feed now, but I think people should look seriously at the rise of militia groups in this country. They profess a willingness to kill or be killed. It's dangerous, and certainly does not garner any sympathy from "the masses" for ranchers, who up until now have had some kind of mystic and romantic appeal in an old west kind of way. You can see by the absence of conservative media and political attention this time around that the armed westerners fighting for their constitutional right from the big bad government is so yesterday for them. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:19 AM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all.
You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it.
WHY were they charged under a terrorist law? That question in and of it self has yet to be answered satisfactorily. Especially in light of the actions of The BLM in the same area! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM
The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer.
Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
Finney, you claim to be educated and intelligent......................Please describe the original purpose of 'The Militia'. Historically speaking of course. If you can. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:41 AM We all digress. I have to go feed now, but I think people should look seriously at the rise of militia groups in this country. They profess a willingness to kill or be killed. It's dangerous, and certainly does not garner any sympathy from "the masses" for ranchers, who up until now have had some kind of mystic and romantic appeal in an old west kind of way. You can see by the absence of conservative media and political attention this time around that the armed westerners fighting for their constitutional right from the big bad government is so yesterday for them.
The 'mystic appeal' is a live and well! Just like with the natives...lol. I can attest to that being in the hospitality industry. Aside from that...it's not true that the western legislators have abandoned this, part of the problem is that we don't have the 'voice' in congress because we don't have the population! BECAUSE we can't 'grow' because the fed is claiming our land because...ugh. The willingness to die is simple...it's not that anyone wants to die...it's that many, including me, feel that we'd rather die standing than on our knees begging. What does it teach our children if we're cowards? What happens when you're old and your grandchildren ask you about the stories of freedom while you're standing in the soup line and then ask why you laid down and didn't protect it for them? "Give me liberty or give me death" is not a terrorist thought.
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:41 AM NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
You can quit posting the d*mn video....I HAVE watched it......and it has nothing to do with my statement about sympathy OR what those men could have expected....... | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24952
             Location: WYOMING | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM
NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking.
Its unfair.
Its maddening.
Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr.
You can not unlawfully fight for what is right.
The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive.
Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting.
Edited by geronabean 2016-01-30 10:12 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| MS2011 - 2016-01-30 9:32 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:30 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol.
It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about...
It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional.
It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money...
We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it. It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else. Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis ).
Do your research - the Hammonds DID take the plea deal!!!
Sorry for the length of this.
FindLawCaselawUnited StatesUS 9th Cir.UNITED STATES v. HAMMOND
UNITED STATES v. HAMMOND
ResetAAFont size:Print 69
United States Court of Appeals,Ninth Circuit.
UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff–Appellant, v. Steven Dwight HAMMOND, Defendant–Appellee.
United States of America, Plaintiff–Appellant, v. Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., Defendant–Appellee.
Nos. 12–30337, 12–30339.
Decided: February 7, 2014
Before RICHARD C. TALLMAN and CARLOS T. BEA, Circuit Judges, and STEPHENJ. MURPHY, III, District Judge.** Kelly A. Zusman, Assistant United States Attorney; S. Amanda Marshall, United States Attorney, District of Oregon, Portland, OR, for Plaintiff–Appellant. Lawrence H. Matasar, Lawrence Matasar, P.C., Portland, OR, for Defendant–Appellee Steven Dwight Hammond. Marc D. Blackman and Kendra M. Matthews, Ransom & Blackman, LLP, for Defendant–Appellee Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr.
OPINION
The government appeals the sentences of Steven and Dwight Hammond, whom a jury convicted of maliciously damaging the real property of the United States by fire, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 844(f)(1). The convictions carried minimum sentences of five years of imprisonment, but citing Eighth Amendment concerns, the district court sentenced Steven to only twelve months and one day of imprisonment and Dwight to only three months of imprisonment. Because the sentences were illegal and the government did not waive its right to appeal them, we vacate the sentences and remand for resentencing.
I. Background
The Hammonds have long ranched private and public land in Eastern Oregon. Although they lease public land for grazing, the Hammonds are not permitted to burn it without prior authorization from the Bureau of Land Management. Government employees reminded Steven of this restriction in 1999 after he started a fire that escaped onto public land.
But in September 2001, the Hammonds again set a fire on their property that spread to nearby public land. Although the Hammonds claimed that the fire was designed to burn off invasive species on their property, a teenage relative of theirs testified that Steven had instructed him to drop lit matches on the ground so as to “light up the whole country on fire.” And the teenager did just that. The resulting flames, which were eight to ten feet high, spread quickly and forced the teenager to shelter in a creek. The fire ultimately consumed 139 acres of public land and took the acreage out of production for two growing seasons.
In August 2006, a lightning storm kindled several fires near where the Hammonds grew their winter feed. Steven responded by attempting back burns near the boundary of his land. Although a burn ban was in effect, Steven did not seek a waiver. His fires burned about an acre of public land.
The government ultimately prosecuted the Hammonds on charges related to these and other fires. After trial, the jury deliberated several hours and returned a partial verdict. The jury convicted Steven of two counts and Dwight of one count of maliciously damaging the real property of the United States by fire, in violation of 18 U .S.C. § 844(f)(1), based on their respective roles in the September 2001 and August 2006 fires. The jury also acquitted the Hammonds of some charges and failed to reach a verdict on others, including conspiracy charges brought against Steven and Dwight. The judge then instructed the jury to continue deliberating.
While the jury deliberated on the remaining charges, the parties reached an oral agreement and presented it to the court.1 The government told the court that the Hammonds had agreed to “waive their appeal rights”—except with respect to ineffective assistance of counsel claims—“and accept the verdicts as they've been returned thus far by the jury.” In return, the government promised to “recommend” that Steven's sentences run concurrently and agreed that the Hammonds “should remain released pending the court's sentencing decision.”
The Hammonds agreed with the government's summary of the plea agreement. Their attorneys also added that the Hammonds wanted the “case to be over” and hoped to “bring th[e] matter to a close.” According to the defense, the “idea” of the plea agreement was that the case would “be done with at the sentencing” and that the “parties would accept · the sentence that's imposed.” The district court then accepted the plea agreement and dismissed the remaining charges.
At sentencing, the court found that the guidelines range for Steven was 8 to 14 months and for Dwight was 0 to 6 months. Yet their convictions carried five-year minimum terms of imprisonment. See 18 U.S.C. § 844(f)(1). The government accordingly recommended five-year sentences of imprisonment and argued—both in its sentencing memorandum and at sentencing—that the court lacked discretion to impose lesser sentences.
The court, however, concluded that the Eighth Amendment required deviation from the statutory minimum. Observing that Congress probably had not intended for the sentence to cover fires in “the wilderness,” the court reasoned that five-year sentences would be grossly disproportionate to the severity of the Hammonds' offenses. The court then sentenced Steven to two concurrent terms of twelve months and one day of imprisonment and Dwight to three months of imprisonment.
II. Standard of Review
We review both a waiver of appeal and the legality of a sentence de novo. See United States v. Bibler, 495 F.3d 621, 623 (9th Cir .2007) (waiver of appeal); United States v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir.1991) (legality of a sentence).
III. Discussion
A. Waiver
A threshold issue is whether the government waived its right to appeal the Hammonds' sentences in the plea agreement or otherwise failed to preserve its objection. We find no grounds for dismissing the appeal.
The Hammonds first argue that the government waived its right to appeal in the plea agreement. Because a plea agreement is partly contractual in nature, we interpret it from the perspective of a reasonable defendant. See United States v. De la Fuente, 8 F.3d 1333, 1337–38 (9th Cir.1993). But there is no ambiguity here to interpret. A reasonable defendant would expect that the absence of any statements on the government's right to appeal simply means that no waiver was contemplated. See United States v. Anderson, 921 F.2d 335, 337–38 (1st Cir.1990).
The Hammonds respond by arguing that the statements of defense counsel show that an all-around waiver of appellate rights was the sine qua non of the plea agreement. The record, however, belies that assertion. The statements made by defense counsel just before the judge accepted the plea agreement underscore that all parties sought to resolve the case swiftly, but finality was not the only benefit supporting the plea agreement. Other benefits included favorable recommendations from the government and the dismissal of charges. We thus cannot reasonably read defense counsels' references to finality as meaning that no party could take an appeal.
Assuming then that the plea agreement is silent on the government's right of appeal, the Hammonds urge us to imply a waiver into the plea agreement. We have never before done so. But relying on United States v. Guevara, 941 F.2d 1299 (4th Cir.1991), the Hammonds argue that construing the government's silence as an implied waiver will promote fairness and finality. We reject that position.
The principles governing the formation and interpretation of plea agreements leave no room for implied waivers. Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 11, not the common law of contracts, governs the making of plea agreements. See United States v. Escamilla, 975 F.2d 568, 571 n.3 (9th Cir.1992); United States v. Partida–Parra, 859 F.2d 629, 634 (9th 1988). Although Rule 11 gives courts discretion to accept or reject a plea agreement, it does not authorize courts to remake a plea agreement or imply terms into one. See United States v. Benchimol, 471 U.S. 453, 455 (1985) (per curiam) (“Rule 11[ ] · speaks in terms of what the parties in fact agree to, and does not suggest that such implied-in-law terms as were read into this agreement by the Court of Appeals have any place under the rule.”); United States v. Stevens, 548 F.2d 1360, 1362 (9th Cir.1977) (observing that Congress rejected a version of Rule 11 that would have allowed a court to modify a plea agreement in favor of the defendant). We accordingly “enforce the literal terms” of a plea agreement, construing only ambiguous language in the defendant's favor. United States v. Franco–Lopez, 312 F.3d 984, 989 (9th Cir.2002); see also United States v. Johnson, 187 F.3d 1129, 1134–35 (9th Cir.1999). These principles preclude us from implying a waiver where none exists.
Moreover, nothing in the nature of plea agreements requires that each promise must be “matched against a mutual and ‘similar’ promise by the other side.” United States v. Hare, 269 F.3d 859, 861 (7th Cir.2001). To be sure, the idea behind a plea agreement is that each side waives certain rights to obtain some benefit. See Partida–Parra, 859 F.2d at 633. But there are ample reasons that a defendant might enter a plea agreement short of extinguishing the government's right to appeal, including the possibility of a lower sentence and the dismissal of other charges. Hare, 269 F.3d at 861; cf. Brady v. United States, 397 U.S. 742, 752 (1970) (listing possible reasons for entering a plea). For example, the Hammonds negotiated for favorable recommendations from the government and the dismissal of charges. Such benefits are consideration enough to support a plea agreement. See Hare, 269 F.3d at 861–62.
Finally, contrary to the Hammonds' assertion, the record leaves no doubt that the government preserved the objection to the sentences that it raises on appeal. Nowhere did the government make a “straightforward” concession. United States v. Bentson, 947 F.2d 1353, 1356 (9th Cir.1991). Nor did the government fail to give the district court an opportunity to address the argument it raises on appeal. See United States v. Grissom, 525 F.3d 691, 694–95 (9th Cir.2008). In its sentencing memorandum and at sentencing, the government argued that the trial judge lacked discretion to deviate from the statutory minimum. The government thus preserved its objection, and we may hear its appeal.
B. Sentences
Turning now to the merits, we hold that the district court illegally sentenced the Hammonds to terms of imprisonment less than the statutory minimum. A minimum sentence mandated by statute is not a suggestion that courts have discretion to disregard. See United States v. Wipf, 620 F.3d 1168, 1169–70 (9th Cir.2010). The court below was bound to sentence the Hammonds to five-year terms of imprisonment. See 18 U.S.C. 844(f)(1). Although the district court attempted to justify lesser sentences on Eighth Amendment grounds, sentencing the Hammonds to five years of imprisonment would not have been unconstitutional.
Rather than categorically challenge five-year sentences for arson, the Hammonds argue that the sentences would be constitutionally disproportionate “under the unique facts and circumstances of this case.” We assess this type of Eighth Amendment challenge by “compar[ing] the gravity of the offense to the severity of the sentence.” United States v. Williams, 636 F .3d 1229, 1232 (9th Cir.2011) (citing Graham v. Florida, 560 U.S. 48, 60 (2010)). Only in the “rare case in which this threshold comparison leads to an inference of gross disproportionality,” do we then “compare the defendant's sentence with the sentences received by other offenders in the same jurisdiction and with the sentences imposed for the same crime in other jurisdictions.” Graham, 560 U.S. at 60 (internal citations and quotation marks omitted).
Here, we need not progress beyond the first step. Congress has “broad authority” to determine the appropriate sentence for a crime and may justifiably consider arson, regardless of where it occurs, to be a serious crime. Solem v. Helm, 463 U.S. 277, 290 (1983). Even a fire in a remote area has the potential to spread to more populated areas, threaten local property and residents, or endanger the firefighters called to battle the blaze. The September 2001 fire here, which nearly burned a teenager and damaged grazing land, illustrates this very point.
Given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense. The Supreme Court has upheld far tougher sentences for less serious or, at the very least, comparable offenses. See Lockyer v. Andrade, 538 U.S. 63 (2003) (upholding a sentence of fifty years to life under California's three-strikes law for stealing nine videotapes); Ewing v. California, 538 U.S. 11 (2003) (upholding a sentence of twenty-five years to life under California's three-strikes law for the theft of three golf clubs); Hutto v. Davis, 454 U.S. 370 (1982) (per curiam) (upholding a forty-year sentence for possession of nine ounces of marijuana with the intent to distribute); Rummel v. Estelle, 445 U.S. 263 (1980) (upholding a life sentence under Texas's recidivist statute for obtaining $120.75 by false pretenses). And we and other courts have done the same. See, e.g., United States v. Tolliver, 730 F.3d 1216, 1230–32 (10th Cir.2013) (upholding a 430–month sentence for using arson in the commission of a felony); United States v. Major, 676 F.3d 803, 812 (9th Cir.2012) (upholding a 750–year sentence for offenses under 18 U.S.C. § 924(c)), cert. denied, 133 S.Ct. 280; United States v. Meiners, 485 F.3d 1211, 1212–13 (9th Cir.2007) (per curiam) (upholding a fifteen-year sentence for advertising child pornography); United States v. Uphoff, 232 F.3d 624, 625–26 (8th Cir.2000) (upholding a five-year sentence for arson of a building).
Because the district court erred by sentencing the Hammonds to terms of imprisonment less than the statutory minimum, we vacate the sentences and remand for resentencing in compliance with the law.
VACATED AND REMANDED.
FOOTNOTES
1. Although the Hammonds did not enter guilty pleas, the Hammonds agreed not to contest the jury verdicts in exchange for the government moving to dismiss other charges. The resulting posture is the same as that following a plea agreement. We thus will refer to the oral agreement here as a plea agreement and apply to it the law governing plea agreements.
MURPHY, District Judge:
- See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1656853.html#sthash.Ksmwy... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Finney, are You aware that 'the teenager' referenced in your post was discredited? For being mentally challenged?
And why were The Hammonds charged with Terrorism to begin with? Would you care to answer that? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:09 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM
NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking.
Its unfair.
Its maddening.
Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr.
You can not unlawfully fight for what is right.
The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive.
Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting.
Question: Do morals trump legality? I.E. Laws? Are Laws supposed to be moral? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-30 9:04 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:41 AM NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
You can quit posting the d*mn video....I HAVE watched it......and it has nothing to do with my statement about sympathy OR what those men could have expected.......
Lmao...settle down! I'm quite certain these men aren't after 'sympathy'...not really the 'way they roll'. See, there's nothing so 'mystic or romantic' about cowboys...unless you consider honesty, integrity and love of the land a 'mystic, romantic' quality. They knew what they were/are up against, hence arming themselves! Gotta have that 2nd Amendment Right to Protect 1st, ya know? It will be whatever it will be and we can't blame these guys for not trying...just the 'masses' for not 'getting it'.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| foundation horse - 2016-01-30 10:18 AM
Finney, are You aware that 'the teenager' referenced in your post was discredited? For being mentally challenged?
And why were The Hammonds charged with Terrorism to begin with? Would you care to answer that?
I read a reason but without taking time to look it up I can't give you a link. But when I read the piece to begin with, I remember thinking in my own mind that they probably charged them with that for one of two reasons, either they were tired of the arguments and threats that the article cited or they never wanted them to go to jail in the first place but wanted them to plea out if they knew they knew the would face five years jail time, or a combination of both. I'm not a lawyer or a mind reader so I don't know what either party was thinking. | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24952
             Location: WYOMING | foundation horse - 2016-01-30 11:20 AM
geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:09 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM
NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking.
Its unfair.
Its maddening.
Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr.
You can not unlawfully fight for what is right.
The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive.
Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting.
Question: Do morals trump legality? I.E. Laws? Are Laws supposed to be moral?
Do I think its moral that a private company can take my land for their personal gain? No! But due to a pre WW 2 law its is legal for them to do so.
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[...
This is th epoint I was trying to make in my previous post. We do not know what was going on at ground level. We need to hear the video and see it close up. Did law enforcement tell him to drop his weapon? We don't know. What were they saying to him? What was he sayiong to them? Why did they not have the dogs take him down? They knew he was a constitutional student and was keeping the Feds from taking land and water. We need to see close up video and audio! | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:45 AM foundation horse - 2016-01-30 11:20 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:09 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking. Its unfair. Its maddening. Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr. You can not unlawfully fight for what is right. The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive. Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting. Question: Do morals trump legality? I.E. Laws? Are Laws supposed to be moral? Do I think its moral that a private company can take my land for their personal gain? No! But due to a pre WW 2 law its is legal for them to do so.
A little off the track ...... but those on the Trump Band Wagon should read this from his interview with Fox......If Trump wants to build a hotel in your back yard....he thinks that he should be able to TAKE your back yard to make it happen......... http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/10/06/trump-eminent-domain-even-for-private-projects-is-wonderful-thing-youre-not-taking-property/ | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:34 AM Please please watch this before it's removed...again.
Who's the Virus?
I'm going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Thanks for posting this video! | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 8:53 AM Im going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow.
https://www.facebook.com/steve.worthington.5/videos/1107996929231308/?fref=nf
You found it!! YAY!! I had posted that video a few days ago and right after he was shot, it was gone!! Thankyou for finding and sharing it!! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 10:54 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 8:53 AM Im going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow. https://www.facebook.com/steve.worthington.5/videos/1107996929231308/?fref=nf You found it!! YAY!! I had posted that video a few days ago and right after he was shot, it was gone!! Thankyou for finding and sharing it!! That was the one...I had clicked on it and there wasn't anything there...hmmm. I guess it keeps getting deleted, Idk how to download it to my computer, but, evidently others do so it keeps showing up here and there. Here's the youtube version that you can download it from (however, I was told to stop posting that ***mn video...lol): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6VQKgYjJno
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-30 12:15 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | If anyones interested, this is a meeting in Utah with the natural Resources Committee on the 22nd...I'm sharing this because Finney (?) said the legislators had 'moved on' from these issues...simply not true! I know some of these people personally and they are fighting as hard as they can to save our country! http://southernutahlive.com/video/view/Natural-Resources-Public-Hearing-2016-01-22 | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-30 9:29 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:19 AM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all. You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it. Then, of course, there is this looming out there, and it's possible relationship to recent events. Far fetched? Maybe. Still, something to ponder. How is this related to Uranium? This story was originally from none other than the New York Times. Go figure. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/23/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as...
They have found Uranium deposits on the Hammond Ranch and the BLM land they have rights to. They want that land! So they fined them $400,000 and put them in jail. Of course the govt. is first in line for their deeded ranch as "payment" for their hefty fines. Hard to pay the fines and maintane the ranch with the 2 men in prison. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Edited by Vickie 2016-01-30 1:51 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
     
| Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:49 PM
Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Get you some cows, and a BLM lease. Nothing is stopping you. Run em on it for your 3 month period, and then ride in and bring em back. Shouldn't be a problem. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:49 PM Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Then why is the BLM involved instead of The National Park Service? And just how do Americans own all this 'Federal Land'? Also, are You familar with the original General Land Office and its stated purpose. (Which was the fore runner to The BLM and National Forest Service). | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:49 PM Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
They were not protesting land that the BLM currently owns. The BLM is prosecuting private landowners and taking their land. The Hammond ranch is private property! (At least it is for now) | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM
While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
In LaVoy's own words. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Vickie - 2016-01-30 11:49 AM
Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Hammonds bought their ranch. Many other ranchers bought the land they claim. The BLM has voided their rights.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-is-the-oregon-...
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | Why would I get a BLM lease? I own my land. I don't want governent welfare, including rediculously cheap leases.
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:58 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:41 AM We all digress. I have to go feed now, but I think people should look seriously at the rise of militia groups in this country. They profess a willingness to kill or be killed. It's dangerous, and certainly does not garner any sympathy from "the masses" for ranchers, who up until now have had some kind of mystic and romantic appeal in an old west kind of way. You can see by the absence of conservative media and political attention this time around that the armed westerners fighting for their constitutional right from the big bad government is so yesterday for them.
The 'mystic appeal' is a live and well! Just like with the natives...lol. I can attest to that being in the hospitality industry. Aside from that...it's not true that the western legislators have abandoned this, part of the problem is that we don't have the 'voice' in congress because we don't have the population! BECAUSE we can't 'grow' because the fed is claiming our land because...ugh. The willingness to die is simple...it's not that anyone wants to die...it's that many, including me, feel that we'd rather die standing than on our knees begging. What does it teach our children if we're cowards? What happens when you're old and your grandchildren ask you about the stories of freedom while you're standing in the soup line and then ask why you laid down and didn't protect it for them? "Give me liberty or give me death" is not a terrorist thought.
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-01-30 8:46 AM
OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[...
This is th epoint I was trying to make in my previous post. We do not know what was going on at ground level. We need to hear the video and see it close up. Did law enforcement tell him to drop his weapon? We don't know. What were they saying to him? What was he sayiong to them? Why did they not have the dogs take him down? They knew he was a constitutional student and was keeping the Feds from taking land and water. We need to see close up video and audio!
They didn't release any sound. They have body cam video of this. We KNOW they do. Will they ever release them? KrisAnne Hall thinks they won't based on the patriot act. They have characterized these men as "terrorists" from the get-go. So they would be able to use the patriot act to not release the the sound and video from the body cams. Edited by OregonBR 2016-01-30 4:01 PM
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:42 PM
Why would I get a BLM lease? I own my land. I don't want governent welfare, including rediculously cheap leases.
Do you not get it? They owned their ranch too. Yet they are being bullied by the BLM any way they can to get them to leave it. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-01-30 3:42 PM
Why would I get a BLM lease? I own my land. I don't want governent welfare, including rediculously cheap leases.
Again, why did The National Park Service get involved instead of The BLM with the claim of a National Park? Please respond. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM
While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
In LaVoy's own words.
He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr.
Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1.) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2.) members of the U.S. Congress, 3.) Supreme Court Justices, 4.) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5.) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM
While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
In LaVoy's own words.
He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr.
Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I believe a Convention of States would answer the question of Constitutional Amendment requirements...................... | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
 
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the biggest problem is 1 he was middle age white dude not burning and looting had pis pants where they belonged
now is he had been black and throw gas bomb we would know everything | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in! ? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gioIUdfAiTk | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint |
Wow, good man fighting against a giant. He is gone so who will continue the fight? | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 5:03 PM
Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in! ? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot.
This is where I think a REAL president would step up to the podium and start to publicly address this matter. Has Obama said anything about this? He is supposed to be the president of ALL the people....not just those who agree with his tyranny and socialist agenda. This is the President's opportunity to be a leader and a healer of wounds. This won't go away. People want an explanation. They want a President who will uphold his solemn oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." They want definitive answers.
Our president is a coward. He addresses the police shooting of the thug in Oregon, and Treyvon Martin, but what does he have to say about this? Maybe he's said something....I'm not aware of it if he has. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-30 7:30 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 5:03 PM Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in!
? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot.
This is where I think a REAL president would step up to the podium and start to publicly address this matter. Has Obama said anything about this? He is supposed to be the president of ALL the people....not just those who agree with his tyranny and socialist agenda. This is the President's opportunity to be a leader and a healer of wounds. This won't go away. People want an explanation. They want a President who will uphold his solemn oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." They want definitive answers. Our president is a coward. He addresses the police shooting of the thug in Oregon, and Treyvon Martin, but what does he have to say about this? Maybe he's said something....I'm not aware of it if he has.
If people would actually read this article they would then understand what is going on and how the government is trying to basically steal the Hammond's privately owned ranch. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Here is just a taste of the BLM's tactics to force ranchers out. https://www.facebook.com/AmericanLandsCouncil/videos/964207073659086... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | The BLM is trying to take a ranchers land right now along the Red River in Texas. This is happening all over...Not just in Nevada, Oregon and Arizona.
The government wants the Hammond's privately owned ranch. They are the last to hold out in that area.
Edited by Nevertooold 2016-01-30 10:05 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-30 3:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I do not support a convention of states...that, to me, is an extemely dangerous place to go. What part of the constitution do you want to 'change, tweek, delete or add to'? We'e so divided right now taht it would be a terrible mistake. We DO have the option of nullification...I don't think anyone really knows what to do at this point, the power has shifted over the years and we have some brilliant minds wroking on it, however, they're trying to do it through the courts, which isn't going to work either...that's why I have supported real action, like what happened in Burns...the ''''''''''''''stake' was driven long ago...in 1776...we don't need to drive a 'new' stake. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | We need to push to have the BLM investigated. LaVoy had been battling with them over many issues, but also his water. They kept sabatoging his water, filling his lines with concrete, turning it off, ect. ect. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-30 6:30 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 5:03 PM Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in!
? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot.
This is where I think a REAL president would step up to the podium and start to publicly address this matter. Has Obama said anything about this? He is supposed to be the president of ALL the people....not just those who agree with his tyranny and socialist agenda. This is the President's opportunity to be a leader and a healer of wounds. This won't go away. People want an explanation. They want a President who will uphold his solemn oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." They want definitive answers. Our president is a coward. He addresses the police shooting of the thug in Oregon, and Treyvon Martin, but what does he have to say about this? Maybe he's said something....I'm not aware of it if he has.
Obama is threatening executive action if the states don't comply with what the environmentalists and blm want....as in National Monument designations. A fedral land grab. The threat to our nation is very very real. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Live stream from Deb and 'Orange Hat' in Burns...this was 3 hours ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx2eWenLx8
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-30 10:20 PM
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:11 PM
Bear - 2016-01-30 3:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I do not support a convention of states...that, to me, is an extemely dangerous place to go. What part of the constitution do you want to 'change, tweek, delete or add to'? We'e so divided right now taht it would be a terrible mistake. We DO have the option of nullification...I don't think anyone really knows what to do at this point, the power has shifted over the years and we have some brilliant minds wroking on it, however, they're trying to do it through the courts, which isn't going to work either...that's why I have supported real action, like what happened in Burns...the ''''''''''''''stake' was driven long ago...in 1776...we don't need to drive a 'new' stake.
Go back and read what I wrote again before reacting. I didn't say I want a convention of states. I suggested a public forum and I stated why this would be a good thing. Right now, thanks to the internet cesspool, we have an endless supply of so-called information, and no way of determining what is truthful, factual, and reliable.
And yes, thankfully, we do have a way to "change, tweet, delete, or add to" the Constitution. We have used it since it's inception. It's called a Constitutional Ammendment. It's a very difficult undertaking, but it's been done, and perhaps some Constitutional Ammendment will provide the solution to the tyranny and government land grabbing. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 8:12 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:11 PM Bear - 2016-01-30 3:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years. I do not support a convention of states...that, to me, is an extemely dangerous place to go. What part of the constitution do you want to 'change, tweek, delete or add to'? We'e so divided right now taht it would be a terrible mistake.
We DO have the option of nullification...I don't think anyone really knows what to do at this point, the power has shifted over the years and we have some brilliant minds wroking on it, however, they're trying to do it through the courts, which isn't going to work either...that's why I have supported real action, like what happened in Burns...the ''''''''''''''stake' was driven long ago...in 1776...we don't need to drive a 'new' stake.
Go back and read what I wrote again before reacting. I didn't say I want a convention of states. I suggested a public forum and I stated why this would be a good thing. Right now, thanks to the internet cesspool, we have an endless supply of so-called information, and no way of determining what is truthful, factual, and reliable. And yes, thankfully, we do have a way to "change, tweet, delete, or add to" the Constitution. We have used it since it's inception. It's called a Constitutional Ammendment. It's a very difficult undertaking, but it's been done, and perhaps some Constitutional Ammendment will provide the solution to the tyranny and government land grabbing.
It was a previous post of someone else who mentioned the convention of states...I was just summarizing my thoughts. Here is a video of a congressional hearing that was held last week here in Utah, I did post it earlier...kind of tedious! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx2eWenLx8 What's so very frustrating is that we aleady have so many 'tweeks' that got us here...the antiquities act, taylor grazing act, creation of the blm, flpma...all these things have built a 'wall' of sorts that has prevented the states from enjoying what was promsed...we need to tear down those walls. The ranchers know that it will likely cost more to graze on state land, they aren't opposed to paying, they ARE opposed to the theft. It's not alwasy about how it affects you right now, it's about right and wrong. Also, there's so many so-called 'stakeholders' that have been invited to a table that they have no business at. Please note that the federal government CAN be sued, whereas, state governments CANNOT. This is very mportant!!! Environmental groups are terrified they'll lose their huge fear based profit margin when they can no longer tie this up in the courts, think how much that costs the public. My husband, right now, is doing depositions for an ongoing lawsuit concerning SUWA vs. the U.S over Utah roads...he's working with the governors office. It's ugly stuff...and costly. And stupid! It's money. Always that. More and more testimony is coming out showing how Lavoy Finican was assassinated. Whether the gov't will ever be held accountable for their actions is doubtful...but, just ask yourself WHY they felt such an urgent need to stop "this virus before it spread to another county"? wth are they talking about? Nobody had been hurt or threatened, nothing destroyed or damaged. The government wasn't protecting the people, it was protecting it's hold over the people. If the masses don't understand that then there's nothing else I can say! It's very simple to most of us who live here.
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boon
Posts: 4

| I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day.
My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day.
I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | This is chilling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjyo9AuU3LM | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 10:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
Why is this your first post? Love it when people hide. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas |
Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Douglas J Gordon - 2016-01-31 11:19 AM
RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 10:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
Why is this your first post? Love it when people hide.
Maybe because of remarks like this? | |
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boon
Posts: 4

| Exactly...mainly because of remarks like that. FYI-I've been a BHW member for a long time, I just never post. Check my profile...I joined 3 YEARS AGO and not today as your post suggests!
Wasn't aware there was a post quota in order to have an opinion.
Additionally, my post isn't in favor or the government or the ranchers since I wasn't there. Not siding with one or the other. BUT it does offer an firsthand accounting to the mindset of this guy just prior to him leaving for Oregon.
Edited by RustyNailRanch 2016-01-31 11:33 AM
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM
Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot.
There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant: http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/ | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Anonymous: We Stand With Ammon Bundy https://www.facebook.com/anonews.co/videos/1157905174221040/?fref=nf | |
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boon
Posts: 4

| musikmaker - 2016-01-31 11:41 AM
RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant: http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/
My daughter had an IN PERSON encounter with this guy nearly 3 weeks ago...she is the one who "pulled the kids" from him because of his perceived instability. He was not in Burns at the time. She was there, you were not. I knew about this 2+ weeks ago, I just didn't know his name because she couldn't reveal that until it went public. Additionally, I never said they were fostering FOR CPS. However, CPS did monitor them since they were licensed foster parents. ALL licensed fosters are subject to CPS and bound by their rules. It's her job, trust me...she knows the drill. Visible presence of guns are not allowed.
If you still have your doubts, request a Freedom of Information request on the CPS investigation and you will see who the investigator was as well as the date. I can 100% guarantee you it was my daughter and it happened exactly when she said it did.
My post was not about taking sides. I'm not taking his side, the ranchers side or the side of the government until more details come out, much like Ferguson. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 10:53 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-31 11:41 AM RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it. That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant:
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/
My daughter had an IN PERSON encounter with this guy nearly 3 weeks ago...she is the one who "pulled the kids" from him because of his perceived instability. He was not in Burns at the time. She was there, you were not. I knew about this 2+ weeks ago, I just didn't know his name because she couldn't reveal that until it went public. Additionally, I never said they were fostering FOR CPS. However, CPS did monitor them since they were licensed foster parents. ALL licensed fosters are subject to CPS and bound by their rules. It's her job, trust me...she knows the drill. Visible presence of guns are not allowed. If you still have your doubts, request a Freedom of Information request on the CPS investigation and you will see who the investigator was as well as the date. I can 100% guarantee you it was my daughter and it happened exactly when she said it did. My post was not about taking sides. I'm not taking his side, the ranchers side or the side of the government until more details come out, much like Ferguson.
Thank you for clarifying! Especially about the 'visible presence of guns'. I'm not doubting that your daughter is the one who investigated this. I surely don't want to get into what I think of CPS! lol... | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 12:53 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-31 11:41 AM RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it. That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant:
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/
My daughter had an IN PERSON encounter with this guy nearly 3 weeks ago...she is the one who "pulled the kids" from him because of his perceived instability. He was not in Burns at the time. She was there, you were not. I knew about this 2+ weeks ago, I just didn't know his name because she couldn't reveal that until it went public. Additionally, I never said they were fostering FOR CPS. However, CPS did monitor them since they were licensed foster parents. ALL licensed fosters are subject to CPS and bound by their rules. It's her job, trust me...she knows the drill. Visible presence of guns are not allowed. If you still have your doubts, request a Freedom of Information request on the CPS investigation and you will see who the investigator was as well as the date. I can 100% guarantee you it was my daughter and it happened exactly when she said it did. My post was not about taking sides. I'm not taking his side, the ranchers side or the side of the government until more details come out, much like Ferguson.
Thank you for posting your information.. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This just keeps getting more and more, um, interesting. https://shastalantern.net/2016/01/special-agent-in-charge-greg-bretzing-linked-to-national-security-breach-fraud-and-corruption-in-salt-lake-city/ | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | I don't have any experience with grazing rights. How was it supposed to work on Finnicum's ranch? He says he purchased the grazing rights from a predecessor. So he did not actually own the land itself, correct? At some point the government decided to charge him for grazing on public lands, even though he paid the rancher who was there before him. Can someone explain this to me? Also, I'd like an explanation of the water issue. Just the facts, please. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 11:30 AM I don't have any experience with grazing rights. How was it supposed to work on Finnicum's ranch? He says he purchased the grazing rights from a predecessor. So he did not actually own the land itself, correct? At some point the government decided to charge him for grazing on public lands, even though he paid the rancher who was there before him. Can someone explain this to me? Also, I'd like an explanation of the water issue. Just the facts, please. That's how it works out here. During the era of the Homestead Act much of the west was not 'claimed' partly because it takes so much more land to feed cattle & water is also an issue...they 'upped' the acreage from 160 acres to 640 which helped and ranchers were also able to 'claim' grazing rights on other parcels. Think of grazing rights like you would oil rights...you don't buy the land you buy the resource, the ranchers 'own' the grass. I know that on the Navajo reservation the occupants lease the top 6" of the ground & I assume it's that way for grazing rights on land that was never properly disposed of, too. In most cases we now have ranchers who've bought grazing rights from someone else which is entirely legal. The water right goes with the grazing right. The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was when the federal government started charging for grazing...here's a link explaining some of it, just remember that the fight started long before this and hasn't yet ended, as we know. http://www.blm.gov/wy/st/en/field_offices/Casper/range/taylor.1.html This is a link that also explains a lot...it shows the same arguement from the 1920-30's: https://archive.org/stream/fourhundredmilli00wintrich/fourhundredmilli00wintrich_djvu.txt It's not simple, especially after the executive branch got so much control moved to agencies that are not within the constitutional boundaries of our nation. Congress could nullify some, if not all, of these acts, of course they will not. The states could nullify the federal intrusion, they too, are afraid of the concequences. We receive PILT funding (Payment in Lieu of Taxes...better known as Pennies in Lieu of Trillions) that further create an environment of pure blackmail and bribery! Those are facts! lol
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-31 1:34 PM
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 Strong Willed Woman
Posts: 6577
      Location: Prosser, WA | I don't believe for one minute that they want to take those rights away from the ranchers for public use. They don't want anyone out there. Not sure what they really want all the land for but in no way is it for the benefit of the public. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | kakbarrelracer - 2016-01-31 2:05 PM I don't believe for one minute that they want to take those rights away from the ranchers for public use. They don't want anyone out there. Not sure what they really want all the land for but in no way is it for the benefit of the public.
So they can sell the mining rights to foreign countries like the POS McCain did in Arizona.
Defense Bill Passes, Giving Sacred Native American...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/12/defense-bill-passes-rio-tinto_n_6317946.html Dec 12, 2014 ... The $585 billion National Defense Authorization Act of 2015 is one of the ... mining firm Rio Tinto 2,400 acres of the Tonto National Forest in exchange for ... giving American forest land to a foreign firm that has such a connection. .... So, after we've strip-mined, frakked and oil-spilled this country into a total ... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | And then of course we have Hillary's thumb in the pie..Washington DC could care less about we the people. They laugh all the way to the bank. Apr 23, 2015 ... Uranium One has the mining rights to Mr. Christensen's property. ... Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that ... Foundation while Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's office was ... If the Kazakh deal was a major victory, UrAsia did not wait long ...
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 3:05 PM
And then of course we have Hillary's thumb in the pie..Washington DC could care less about we the people. They laugh all the way to the bank. Apr 23, 2015 ... Uranium One has the mining rights to Mr. Christensen's property. ... Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that ... Foundation while Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's office was ... If the Kazakh deal was a major victory, UrAsia did not wait long ...
This kind of thing seems to be just ignored. I've never even seen a plausible denial that this took place. A lot of people are apathetic and don't give two sh!ts, but I also think a lot of people are so frustrated that they've given up....or they haven't reached a boiling point quite yet. Finicum and the others like him evidently have reached that stage where it's literally do or die in their mind's eye.
This is one reason why a guy like Trump is surprising people with his popularity. He is a populist who doesn't give a dam about political correctness, or even the political parties, for that matter. I'm not saying I'm a Trump supporter, but I love that he is be holding to nobody and his "Make America Great Again" slogan is resonating. A lot of people supporting him are figuring it's time to roll the dice. | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 11:30 AM
Exactly...mainly because of remarks like that. FYI-I've been a BHW member for a long time, I just never post. Check my profile...I joined 3 YEARS AGO and not today as your post suggests!
Wasn't aware there was a post quota in order to have an opinion.
Additionally, my post isn't in favor or the government or the ranchers since I wasn't there. Not siding with one or the other. BUT it does offer an firsthand accounting to the mindset of this guy just prior to him leaving for Oregon.
Is it public knowledge who foster families are? I know nothing about that area. . . | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot.
It is to bad the audio is so poor. In a nutshell she said when they stopped the first time Lavoy rolled his window down and was yelling they were headed to see the sheriff. Ryan rolled his window down and put both hands out the window and they started shooting at him! Shooting out the truck mirror. So thats why they took off again. The second road block was set up after a corner so no time to really stop. LaVoy decided to try to go around. LaVoy got out of the truck, put his hands in the air and started walking back and they just started shooting. They hit him several times and that is what he reached for......where he had been shot. They also immediatelly started shooting aggressively at the truck. They didnt wait for nothing. They fired the first shot and all shots. He was unarmed. He had left his guns at the refuge and thats where they still are. She had gotten some video, but authorities now have it as it was in the truck so we will never see it. There was a Mark somebody in the truck, and they believe he was a FBI plant. They were completely set up and they knew exactly where they would be and when and appearantly nobody knew him prior. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Here is the petition for the Hammonds. I hope everybody signs it. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/free-hammonds-0 | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen? | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-31 12:30 PM
I don't have any experience with grazing rights. How was it supposed to work on Finnicum's ranch? He says he purchased the grazing rights from a predecessor. So he did not actually own the land itself, correct? At some point the government decided to charge him for grazing on public lands, even though he paid the rancher who was there before him. Can someone explain this to me? Also, I'd like an explanation of the water issue. Just the facts, please.
For a visual, here is a ranch for sale where I'm from that also carries BLM grazing permits with it. Most of the ranches have x amount of deeded land like any other piece of property you buy, and then many also carry with them deeded "grazing rights" on additional acreage of BLM land. So many are a mix of both and also carry x amount of water rights for a specific amount of acreage.. http://www.oregonranchland.com/ranches188.htm | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 7:31 PM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. It is to bad the audio is so poor. In a nutshell she said when they stopped the first time Lavoy rolled his window down and was yelling they were headed to see the sheriff. Ryan rolled his window down and put both hands out the window and they started shooting at him! Shooting out the truck mirror. So thats why they took off again. The second road block was set up after a corner so no time to really stop. LaVoy decided to try to go around. LaVoy got out of the truck, put his hands in the air and started walking back and they just started shooting. They hit him several times and that is what he reached for......where he had been shot. They also immediatelly started shooting aggressively at the truck. They didnt wait for nothing. They fired the first shot and all shots. He was unarmed. He had left his guns at the refuge and thats where they still are. She had gotten some video, but authorities now have it as it was in the truck so we will never see it. There was a Mark somebody in the truck, and they believe he was a FBI plant. They were completely set up and they knew exactly where they would be and when and appearantly nobody knew him prior.
They clearly sat there for a few minutes.. it didnt just happen that way.. thats all speculation.. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:11 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen?
It is my undserstanding Finicum's ranch was partly owned deeded land and then additional grazing rights on BLM land. Much like the ranch I posted a listing for as an examply of how it works. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/01/31/second-eyewitness-chronicling-the-tragic-ambush-and-murder-of-lavoy-finicum-video/ | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 8:26 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:11 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen? It is my undserstanding Finicum's ranch was partly owned deeded land and then additional grazing rights on BLM land. Much like the ranch I posted a listing for as an examply of how it works.
So he built his home on leased land.. and when they wanted it back .. he lost it.. makes me wonder why build on that part.. or am i confused.. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot.
I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 8:32 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
me to.. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot.
I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
What I saw was they plowed into the snow and LaVon hopped out. He raised his hands and turned to look around, then reached with his right hand over to his left side, then he dropped. Nothing in that video indicated several shots were fired. It was consistent with one shot. If he was shot several times, an autopsy would prove it, obviously. Do we even know for sure if there was an autopsy? There should be. Didn't the FBI claim that he was only shot once? Good grief, it should be easy to prove if he was shot "several times". The family can request an autopsy.
I haven't seen an autopsy even mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Take it or leave it...be whatever you choose, just be ready for consequences...really think hard about this, the future of our world is at stake, your children, grandchildren. These people have nothing to gain and everything to lose...as do you. CLIVEN D. BUNDY PO BOX 7175 BUNKERVILLE, NV 89007 January 29, 2016 NEWS RELEASE LIBERTY FREEDOM FOR GOD WE STAND! In all things, we have sought guidance, and desired to do God, our Father’s, will! We have studied the gospel of Jesus Christ, through his prophets, and try to understand the proper form of government, mostly the inspired US Constitution, the supreme law of the land. Desiring freedom, that all man might be able to exercise his agency. The US Constitution lays out a very plain simple form of inspired government. We as a nation only need to follow it! Our founding fathers fought the battles for freedom and laid out the plan, the supreme law. We the People need to make beneficial use of it and defend it. January 26, 2016, this week, LaVoy Finicum was assassinated by wicked and evil men representing our US government. These men in local, state, and US government feared the truths that LaVoy Finicum was standing for and teaching to his fellowmen. The truth about the supreme law of this land was more than these leaching bureaucrats could allow! The teaching of the true principles had to stop. Great fear needs to be put in the minds of We the People, great fear. (The work of the devil!) All is well. All is well in Zion. All is well in your government. There cannot be a cry go out for freedom, or for property rights, state sovereignty, local government closet to the people – government by the people – for the people. No, we cannot allow policing power be in the hands of We the People’s elected county Sheriff. We the great bureaucracies rule and have unlimited power over these lands. We feed our family, we buy our houses, our cars, and our offices are air-conditioned. We have guns, cars with lights, sirens, the best communication equipment, good health care and a lush guaranteed retirement plan! We have unlimited power. We can buy up everything and every man’s soul with their own money and with their 18 trillion dollar debt. We are prospering. We own the state government and their land. We buy and control their schools and their sheriff. We control the water in the river and under the earth. We control the airways, even the signals that pass around the world. We, the bureaucrat, are the supreme. We control, or at least we are about to control, the environment. We control all the endangered species of the creatures and plants. We control the elements in the earth and all the markets of the commodities of this earth. Yes, all is well in Zion! Men like LaVoy Finicum, the Bundy brothers, those patriots and those who pray for freedom and liberty and support for people, such as women like Shawna Cox – they are all crazies! They are threatening our lifestyle, our unlimited and great authority, and our policing power. We are the majority. They are only a few producers, but with money and fear – we control the rest! (All of these great powers mentioned above, the US constitution does not give to the US government. In the 10th Amendment only a very few enumerated powers are given by the people to the federal government. All other powers and rights are reserved to the states respectively or to the people.) (The Bill of Rights Article X) With money and fear we will justify the assassination of LaVoy Finicum and make political prisoners of all that dare to lift their hand. (We can, we will kill.) This is our livelihood and we will protect our right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so help me Devil! The line is drawn between We the People. On one side, the bureaucrat, the hungry fat cat. On the other side, the producer and the protector that cares for and multiplies and replenishes the God given resources with his blood, sweat, and tears to protect and feed this land. The one who pours the milk in the fat cat’s bowl! How did America get to this point? Is it because We the People want to take a lick or two out of the bowl? Is it because we the rancher, the livestock industry, accepted the Taylor Grazing Act as being constitutional? The livestock industry did accept the work of the federal government in mapping and adjudicating our preempted property rights that were created through beneficial use of the renewable resources, water and forage. The adjudicated lands are all within admitted states within the union of the United States. When we look at the large map of the United States we see that in the west the federal government claims over 50% ownership of the land. In a state, like Nevada, they claim over 90% ownership of the land. How can that be? Show me. Show me where it says in the constitution that the federal government can own mass areas of land? Only in Article 4, Section 3 of our constitution do We the People give congress unlimited power over land and congress had power to dispose of these lands. That’s exactly what they did when they admitted states to the union. The only other power that the constitution affords the government is Article 1 Section 8 Clause 17, here We the People give congress unlimited power to legislate over 10 miles square, which is Washington DC, and other property purchased with the consent of state legislature for military purposes and other needful buildings. So again the question is, how can the bureaucrat have so much unlimited power within an admitted state? Who are the stewards of the land over this red area on the map? Isn’t the rancher the one with the adjudicated rights the steward of the land? We the ranchers are responsible for this great over reach of the federal government. We, the rancher, signed contracts with the federal government such a leases, permits and licenses. We, the rancher, signed contracts giving the US bureaucracies unlimited power to manage our stewardship and we pay them a grazing fee to do this. This contract between the individual and the US government puts both parties in the federal court system because one party or the other breaches something in the contract. In the federal court system the resource user NEVER wins. Remember a contract has been signed that says they have unlimited power. This contract takes the constitutional jurisdiction and authority away from your local sheriff, away from your county government, away from state government giving unlimited power to the federal bureaucrats – BLM, Forest Service, US Fish & Wildlife, Park Service, EPA and etc. This is what LaVoy Finicum, my sons, Shawna Cox, and other patriots were out in the western lands trying to teach. This is why they assassinated LaVoy Finicum. Cliven D. Bundy | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | I know someones tried to answer my question.. but i have asked here and on facebook.. no one can tell me.... The land his home was built on.. was it his bought and paid for by him.. the land his home was on.. also.. grazing rights isnt considered their land is it? I have asked for a few days and I keep getting these copy paste stuff but no definitive answers.. its black and white..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-01-31 8:34 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 7:27 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion. What I saw was they plowed into the snow and LaVon hopped out. He raised his hands and turned to look around, then reached with his right hand over to his left side, then he dropped. Nothing in that video indicated several shots were fired. It was consistent with one shot. If he was shot several times, an autopsy would prove it, obviously. Do we even know for sure if there was an autopsy? There should be. Didn't the FBI claim that he was only shot once? Good grief, it should be easy to prove if he was shot "several times". The family can request an autopsy. I haven't seen an autopsy even mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else?
Autopsy has most definitely been requested as have pictures of the pickup...so far, zilch. You cannot tell without audio when the shots were fired, however, it's very obvious that the back window of the camper was shot out befoe Lavoy was shot as was the windshield and in the unedited version of the shooting, after Lavoy was shot, the camera clearly shows shots being fired after it pans towards the front of the vehicle...I suppose a person can see what they want to to justify their 'position and opinion' otherwise it would never have been released.
I recall vividly the fbi saying one thing immediately following the news (3 shots fired by fbi) 'shootout' (as in return fire), 'charging the police' (uh-huh) and 'traffic stop'...verses the young girls version that matches this exactly...I guess with all the bull**** they had to 'match' up their story as close as they could...it stinks to me, but hey, maybe my 'smeller' is just a little sharper than some? It looks to me that Lavoy was pointing to the pickup! Why in the h** would he exit the pickup THEN try to draw his gun???? He was not a stupid man. He was a 'target'. I know it's very hard to imagine that our government could do this to citizens...or that we could we live in la la land. Denial enables all things...that is a fact.
I still believe, so far, that the fed expected a 'shootout' and when it didn't happen the shooters stopped...maybe because they finally ralized it was 'hit'? Maybe they had a conscience and couldn't continue...surely they didn't run out of ammo... | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Bear - 2016-01-31 8:27 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot.
I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
What I saw was they plowed into the snow and LaVon hopped out. He raised his hands and turned to look around, then reached with his right hand over to his left side, then he dropped. Nothing in that video indicated several shots were fired. It was consistent with one shot. If he was shot several times, an autopsy would prove it, obviously. Do we even know for sure if there was an autopsy? There should be. Didn't the FBI claim that he was only shot once? Good grief, it should be easy to prove if he was shot "several times". The family can request an autopsy.
I haven't seen an autopsy even mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else?
I am sure there will be one. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:32 PM I know someones tried to answer my question.. but i have asked here and on facebook.. no one can tell me.... The land his home was built on.. was it his bought and paid for by him.. the land his home was on.. also.. grazing rights isnt considered their land is it? I have asked for a few days and I keep getting these copy paste stuff but no definitive answers.. its black and white..
Most own their homes and some land but then lease grazing rights where they are then allowed to have their cattle graze on that land that unconsitutionally is owned by the federal government. Those lands should belong to the states.
I think where you are getting confused is the article I posted about what is going on with the BLM and ranchers along the Red River in Texas. What is the Bureau of Land Management claiming? The subject of dispute is a 116-mile stretch of land along the Red River. Basically, the BLM claims that the land—which many ranchers and property owners, including Aderholt, hold deeds on—are actually public lands, because the river’s course has changed. The BLM claims that the land actually hasn’t been private since a Supreme Court case in the 1920’s established what part of the Red River belongs to the public, but the people who own the deeds have been paying taxes on that property in that time. What do the deed holders say? Not a huge surprise, but they don’t buy it. Some, like Aderholt, have built homes on the land that the BLM says belongs to the public, and many of them use the land for ranching, so it’s not just the principle of the matter—people’s livelihoods are at stake here. So they’re angry, and they have been since the issue came up last year. It may be true that a Supreme Court case nearly a hundred years ago explained what’s public land and what’s private land along the Red River, but those borders have never clearly defined, which has deed holders suspicious about why the BLM is only now claiming that it’s land that they’ve been using. So whose land is it? That’s the big question here. If the river’s course changed gradually, through erosion, the Bureau of Land Management has a case here. It’s an unpopular school of thought if you hold the deed, but, as former Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson put it last year, “When rivers move, boundaries change. That’s accepted law, no one disputes that.” The issue here, though, is whether the Red River’s banks have moved through gradual erosion, or whether it was a process called avulsion, where the river’s banks change suddenly because of a flood or another catastrophic event. When that’s the cause of the change, the land rights aren’t affected. Patterson told Breitbart last year that “the BLM always assumes that it’s avulsive when it works to their advantage, and that it’s erosion when it works to their advantage.” Patterson argues that, if the Bureau of Land Management wants that land, they’ll have to prove that it was erosion that changed the course of the river. The laws at work here are old—dating back to the Louisiana Purchase—and complicated. It’s hard to know exactly whose land it is, but it’s also likely that the ownership issue here fairly blindsided the deed holders. In the Bundy Ranch standoff, sympathies were pretty easy to assign along party lines—part of Bundy’s argument for why the land in question was his was that he didn’t “recognize the federal government as even existing,” which appealed to those who share that belief, but alienated those who considered Bundy’s claims to the land dubious at best. Deed holders like Aderholt, on the other hand, require less worldview-identification to sympathize with. That’s important here, as the case proceeds to move through the court of public opinion. - See more at: http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/is-the-bureau-of-land-ma... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM I know someones tried to answer my question.. but i have asked here and on facebook.. no one can tell me.... The land his home was built on.. was it his bought and paid for by him.. the land his home was on.. also.. grazing rights isnt considered their land is it? I have asked for a few days and I keep getting these copy paste stuff but no definitive answers.. its black and white..
I don't know. I haven't researched the land parcel ownership in Arizona...the BLM has a site where you can find the history of the so-called 'public land'. http://www.geocommunicator.gov/GeoComm/ I highly doubt that their home is on lease land, it usually doesn't work that way...they likely 'own' a section where their home is and own the resources on adjoining sections...and otherwise. Ranchers out here must own grazing rights for summer and winter pastures. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-01-31 9:07 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:07 PM Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc.. They put such a burden on the ranchers through regulations that they cannot afford to keep it. I shared a video of lavoy earlier where he was explaining this...the pasture he was speaking of at the time was one that the blm had pulled from grazing for six years even though he still had to pay the AUM on it. The federal government is no more adept at managing land than they were the Mustang Ranch. And the wildfires out here are crazy! We're losing so much wildlife, timber, grazing, watersheds...due to the inept manegment by the fed. It must stop. The states need to take it over quick.
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-31 9:16 PM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2016-01-31 10:14 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:07 PM Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc.. They put such a burden on the ranchers through regulations that they cannot afford to keep it. I shared a video of lavoy earlier where he was explaining this...the pasture he was speaking of at the time was one that the blm had pulled from grazing for six years even though he still had to pay the AUM on it. The federal government is no more adept at managing land than they were the Mustang Ranch. And the wildfires out here are crazy! We're losing so much wildlife, timber, grazing, watersheds...due to the inept manegment by the fed. It must stop. The states need to take it over quick.
Now that makes sense.!! thanks .. | |
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 Veteran
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| musikmaker - 2016-01-31 7:14 PM
Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:07 PM Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc.. They put such a burden on the ranchers through regulations that they cannot afford to keep it. I shared a video of lavoy earlier where he was explaining this...the pasture he was speaking of at the time was one that the blm had pulled from grazing for six years even though he still had to pay the AUM on it. The federal government is no more adept at managing land than they were the Mustang Ranch. And the wildfires out here are crazy! We're losing so much wildlife, timber, grazing, watersheds...due to the inept manegment by the fed. It must stop. The states need to take it over quick.
100% true! We are going through the very same here. Not just natural resources but actual cattle too. Theyou set a backfire that almost killed a friend's husband and 200 head of cattle. At least they won the lawsuit on that one. My best friend has a pasture full of cows with burnt feet cause they were told they had 24 hours to get them out and they actually got about two hours notice. And these people run 400-500 pair on that mountain. And there was many other families with cattle up there too that went through the same. 100's of head burnt to deal. Lives risked and tens of thousands of pasture unusable in the middle of summer because the government doesn't give one sh!t about the farmers or ranchers. Ugghhh. And that was just one fire! | |
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| Hope I've not already posted that story, lol. I'm like 50 first dates and forget what stories I tell, lol | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions.. not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it.. doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
You have that right. However, many police officers also concure he was shot and reaching for his gunshot and are saying the video matches her account of events. Read for yourself. https://www.facebook.com/Law-and-Order-American-Justice-105477983124317/?pnref=story | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/
Finicum is a right handed shooter. He wore a right handed hip holster. At the scene, he was reaching to his left side. According the the TWO THAT WERE THERE, he was unarmed. His guns are still at the reserve! | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM
Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions.. not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it.. doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/
This is the best explanation I've read so far. It all seems to fit.
As much as I feel their plight, I just think LaVoy made the same mistake so many inner city thugs have made. In those instances, there were similar claims that the cops murdered the thug, same as LaVoy. I'm not saying he's some thug, but he made the same fatal error in judgement, and the claims that he was murdered are the same. If he was murdered, then there should be enough evidence to lead to an indictment. This is definitely worth reading. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 10:16 PM
Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/
Finicum is a right handed shooter. He wore a right handed hip holster. At the scene, he was reaching to his left side. According the the TWO THAT WERE THERE, he was unarmed. His guns are still at the reserve!
Obviously you didn't even glance at the link posted by Biblia. Go back and read. There are even pictures, if that's what you want. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM
Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions.. not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it.. doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/
I agree with this.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 11:16 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ Finicum is a right handed shooter. He wore a right handed hip holster. At the scene, he was reaching to his left side. According the the TWO THAT WERE THERE, he was unarmed. His guns are still at the reserve!
Sorry Proof is at the Interviews.. read and lookat ALL the photos.. :) your arguement isnt valid.. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:28 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 8:26 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:11 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen? It is my undserstanding Finicum's ranch was partly owned deeded land and then additional grazing rights on BLM land. Much like the ranch I posted a listing for as an examply of how it works. So he built his home on leased land.. and when they wanted it back .. he lost it.. makes me wonder why build on that part.. or am i confused..
You're confused. They're not building homes on the leased portion. Research land grabs. It's being fought in TX right now. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 9:59 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions.. not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it.. doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ This is the best explanation I've read so far. It all seems to fit. As much as I feel their plight, I just think LaVoy made the same mistake so many inner city thugs have made. In those instances, there were similar claims that the cops murdered the thug, same as LaVoy. I'm not saying he's some thug, but he made the same fatal error in judgement, and the claims that he was murdered are the same. If he was murdered, then there should be enough evidence to lead to an indictment. This is definitely worth reading. That is a very good analysis, not perfect, as it explains first that there were agents in the trees (who had less than 2 minutes to get there..which I don't believe for one second) then doesn't refer to them again...the girl said that the shots were coming from the trees. This op-ed does show that Lavoy, after being shot, doesn't have a gun (by the cops in this close-up) on him...which would be crazy since he's still moving and they think he has a gun? I've seen other explanations that clearly show the cop who ran in front of the pickup shooting at the pickup...I also saw a live show, shortly after the video was realeased, where the editor was zooming and clearing things up, slowing it down, replaying it... and it showed the shooting at the 1st stop, the reason Lavoy left. It showed the back window being shot out before Lavoy got out of the truck, he zoomed in on the truck while they were shooting Lavoy and it clearly showed shots being fired at it. That video is no longer available. hmmmm The jury is still out on this.
Suicide by cop? Lavoy didn't set this up. He didn't choose to die...he may have chosen not to be arrested, but, he certainly didn't go looking for this ambush. If you can't imagine and accept that the feds are the 'virus' who are fighting desperately to protect their illegal occupation of our land...then I don't know what else to say. This isn't about the Hammonds (as Mr. Hammond said himself) and it's not about the Bundy's, nor is it about Lavoy. It's still about an out of control federal government that must be reined in...if you know and are spreading the truth then you are a danger to them. I've read where sheriff ward had been studying the constitution just prior to this...that may explain his tears. Ambush? Assassination? Suicide by cop?
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-01 8:44 AM
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | MS2011 - 2016-02-01 8:20 AM
Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:28 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 8:26 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:11 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen? It is my undserstanding Finicum's ranch was partly owned deeded land and then additional grazing rights on BLM land. Much like the ranch I posted a listing for as an examply of how it works. So he built his home on leased land.. and when they wanted it back .. he lost it.. makes me wonder why build on that part.. or am i confused..
You're confused. They're not building homes on the leased portion. Research land grabs. It's being fought in TX right now.
This is a pretty informative, sensible explanation of the dispute along the Red River in Texas. Watch the interview. He also mentions the Bundy saga briefly. This is a good video. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
      Location: sunny california | I want to see the vehicle and until i do i do not believe the feds... | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | jbhoot - 2016-02-01 7:34 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ I agree with this.
I agree with this too and I watch police videos of stops, shootings and other stuff for a living. He had many chances to do a different thing to protect his life and didn't do one of them at any time. It's sad but it's what happened.
I know people have posted that the Sheriff was two-crossing them on saying he was somewhere and was at the roadblock scene. I'm glad that they actually planned this in a remote area instead of having a major shootout in town by other people and where innocent people could be shot in cross-fire. The Feds and other agencies made the determination to act on this day and at this time. They knew the potential for something bad was going to happen -- hence the bird in the sky filming stuff when typically it would all be done on ground because they knew people would be analyzing everything done that day. They chose a remote area and held back traffic on that road in case a chase ensued and thank God -- did you see how Lavoy was driving all over the road when he was running? I remember watching the video the first time and thinking "Wow, I hope to God nobody is coming up that road." The Sheriff asking them to come to the meeting was one of many ways that they were trying to avoid a Waco Situation and do this on a more peaceful level. | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | I've read on this thread many references to the notion that going through the courts or trying to fix government through the legal process is not working. Case in point, many of you are focused on passing around the petition to free the Hammonds and have attention brought to their situation. I think that's great and it's a good thing. The problem I see with this is that it's a bandaid fix to a bigger problem that has the potential to bring abuse to citizens over and over.
I say band-aid fix because you guys are basically asking that an exception be made to a law that actually needs to be rewritten. Finney posted earlier about the problems with mandatory minimums and I can tell you, anybody involved in criminal prosecutions and defense have some pretty strong viewpoints on this one issue alone. As a current defense attorney and ex-prosecutor, I generally hate them. I think it takes away from a jury's right to assess a proper punishment and it keeps common sense from entering the situation when it is needed.
I know people are upset about the Hammonds being forced to go back to jail but it's the law. Asking for their situation to be resolved only helps them. It doesn't do anything for hundreds of other people the BLM can target and try under this same law. So while you are signing that petition on behalf of the Hammonds, you really also need to be concentrating on contacting your legislators on having that particular law -- especially the minimum range -- revisited and rewrote. That's real change. That's how you actually do it. If not, you'll be one of the millions complaining that going through the court's doesn't work and nothing will ever get changed unless we bring violence or man-power into the situation. No -- you need to learn how to fight right before you can say it's not working. God Bless you all but you're not fighting right. Keep fighting but learn and understand and recalibrate when you know how to do it better. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Red Raider - 2016-02-01 10:35 AM I've read on this thread many references to the notion that going through the courts or trying to fix government through the legal process is not working. Case in point, many of you are focused on passing around the petition to free the Hammonds and have attention brought to their situation. I think that's great and it's a good thing. The problem I see with this is that it's a bandaid fix to a bigger problem that has the potential to bring abuse to citizens over and over.
I say band-aid fix because you guys are basically asking that an exception be made to a law that actually needs to be rewritten. Finney posted earlier about the problems with mandatory minimums and I can tell you, anybody involved in criminal prosecutions and defense have some pretty strong viewpoints on this one issue alone. As a current defense attorney and ex-prosecutor, I generally hate them. I think it takes away from a jury's right to assess a proper punishment and it keeps common sense from entering the situation when it is needed.
I know people are upset about the Hammonds being forced to go back to jail but it's the law. Asking for their situation to be resolved only helps them. It doesn't do anything for hundreds of other people the BLM can target and try under this same law. So while you are signing that petition on behalf of the Hammonds, you really also need to be concentrating on contacting your legislators on having that particular law -- especially the minimum range -- revisited and rewrote. That's real change. That's how you actually do it. If not, you'll be one of the millions complaining that going through the court's doesn't work and nothing will ever get changed unless we bring violence or man-power into the situation. No -- you need to learn how to fight right before you can say it's not working. God Bless you all but you're not fighting right. Keep fighting but learn and understand and recalibrate when you know how to do it better.
I absolutely agree with you that freeing the Hammonds is a bandaid fix. We've got to contact our goverment representatives to try to fix it.
The part that I've never seen before the Hammond's case that absolutely floors me is this - How often have you seen someone sentenced and a plea agreement accepted.....then it's further pursued after the fact? I understand the min sentence requirements - but I don't understand how they were not enforced at the first trial? After you work out a plea agreement and everyone signs off on it - How is a case re-opened? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| Red Raider - 2016-02-01 10:35 AM
I've read on this thread many references to the notion that going through the courts or trying to fix government through the legal process is not working. Case in point, many of you are focused on passing around the petition to free the Hammonds and have attention brought to their situation. I think that's great and it's a good thing. The problem I see with this is that it's a bandaid fix to a bigger problem that has the potential to bring abuse to citizens over and over.
I say band-aid fix because you guys are basically asking that an exception be made to a law that actually needs to be rewritten. Finney posted earlier about the problems with mandatory minimums and I can tell you, anybody involved in criminal prosecutions and defense have some pretty strong viewpoints on this one issue alone. As a current defense attorney and ex-prosecutor, I generally hate them. I think it takes away from a jury's right to assess a proper punishment and it keeps common sense from entering the situation when it is needed.
I know people are upset about the Hammonds being forced to go back to jail but it's the law. Asking for their situation to be resolved only helps them. It doesn't do anything for hundreds of other people the BLM can target and try under this same law. So while you are signing that petition on behalf of the Hammonds, you really also need to be concentrating on contacting your legislators on having that particular law -- especially the minimum range -- revisited and rewrote. That's real change. That's how you actually do it. If not, you'll be one of the millions complaining that going through the court's doesn't work and nothing will ever get changed unless we bring violence or man-power into the situation. No -- you need to learn how to fight right before you can say it's not working. God Bless you all but you're not fighting right. Keep fighting but learn and understand and recalibrate when you know how to do it better.
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | And then you have the House and Senate doing the right thing by passing legislation to force the EPA to start over with their WOTUS rule. It's a train wreck, 2 federal judges have blocked it for 2 different reasons. The language is horrible, the possible uses of it as written are flat out wrong, the way they went through the process of comments and finalizing was unlawful. And yet Obama vetoed and they couldn't get enough **** votes to override the veto. WTH?
Edited by Three 4 Luck 2016-02-01 10:53 AM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Red Raider - 2016-02-01 9:26 AM jbhoot - 2016-02-01 7:34 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ I agree with this. I agree with this too and I watch police videos of stops, shootings and other stuff for a living. He had many chances to do a different thing to protect his life and didn't do one of them at any time. It's sad but it's what happened.
I know people have posted that the Sheriff was two-crossing them on saying he was somewhere and was at the roadblock scene. I'm glad that they actually planned this in a remote area instead of having a major shootout in town by other people and where innocent people could be shot in cross-fire. The Feds and other agencies made the determination to act on this day and at this time. They knew the potential for something bad was going to happen -- hence the bird in the sky filming stuff when typically it would all be done on ground because they knew people would be analyzing everything done that day. They chose a remote area and held back traffic on that road in case a chase ensued and thank God -- did you see how Lavoy was driving all over the road when he was running? I remember watching the video the first time and thinking "Wow, I hope to God nobody is coming up that road." The Sheriff asking them to come to the meeting was one of many ways that they were trying to avoid a Waco Situation and do this on a more peaceful level.
I'm glad you're glad that they decided to murder someone on the sly instead of where they actually took the stand...I know that was said of David Koresh during the Waco killings so I can understand the sentiment...except, of course, I will never give the feds a 'free pass' to kill anyone who's not a threat to anyone except the government. The 'potential' the fed was afraid of (and still are) is the 'spread of the virus'...they said it themselves. People asserting the Constitution...which, as an attorney, you likely know very well that it's not welcome in the courts, people have been charged with 'contempt' for daring to bring it up to certain judges. It's possible that Lavoy was driving erratically because they were being shot at. The fed are pushing this issue to one that could be become even more deadly...as many know that the courts are not 'nuetral'. Especially not the federal courts. | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | MS2011 - 2016-02-01 10:43 AM
The part that I've never seen before the Hammond's case that absolutely floors me is this - How often have you seen someone sentenced and a plea agreement accepted.....then it's further pursued after the fact? I understand the min sentence requirements - but I don't understand how they were not enforced at the first trial? After you work out a plea agreement and everyone signs off on it - How is a case re-opened?
This case is weird in how the sentencing has come about.
I do want to clear up some confusion: this case was the product of both a jury trial and a plea agreement. The Hammonds chose to take the guilt/innocence phase to a jury who convicted them on some of the charges. While the jury was deliberating, the Hammonds and the State came to an agreement on punishment and that is where the plea agreeement part comes in. In that plea agreement, the Hammonds agreed to be sentenced to the five year minimum and for the sentences to run at the same time (concurrently) so that they did not serve five on one and then five on another.
When the sentencing hearing took place, the Hammonds agreed to the five year minimum and the Judge accepted that plea. The Court, however, took it's own initiative and found that imposing such a sentence would be a violation of the 8th Amendment (freedom from cruel and unusual punishment) and lessened the sentence on it's own. That is highly unusual. What you typically see in criminal cases is that someone is sentenced and as part of the appeal process, you argue that the sentence is cruel and unusual in the appeallate courts and have the law declared unconstitutional. In this case, the Judge skipped that huge step and just said "I'm finding it against the law and am changing it." The Judge really doesn't have the authority to do this because that's not the process the case must take to have such a law challenged, declared unconstitutional and a new, more appropriate sentence entered.
So what the Judge basically did was screw everything up. By short-circuiting things, it made it where the Hammonds did not have the ability to challenge the law on appeal because they were given a more appropriate punishment and they couldn't get it changed that way. The prosecutors were stuck with an issue of the law being violated by a Judge who went rouge and they had to challenge the sentence as part of their job. This lessor sentence was really against the law.
So what's happened now is that the State has filed legal paperwork to have the appellate court review what this Judge did, that Court said "Oh, that's wrong. That Judge can't do that" and the case was sent back for re-sentencing in front of that first Court the way it should have been all along. That's why the Court is now saying we have to follow the law and impose this minimum sentence that should have been done all along.
In short, the Judge messed everything up but it wasn't done in a malicious way. In trying to do the right thing and return some common sense to the system, the Judge was trying to knock out a few steps in this instance and actually give the Hammonds something that they were not entitled to by law. This Judge was really sympathetic to their plight. The way it was done is just not how you do that by law and that's what's now being corrected by the Hammonds serving this five year sentence. Hopefully their attorneys now can start filing that paperwork to have this statute declared inconstitutional on the basis of that mandatory minimum being a cruel and unusual punishment and we can see some changes that way. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Red Raider - 2016-02-01 10:08 AM MS2011 - 2016-02-01 10:43 AM
The part that I've never seen before the Hammond's case that absolutely floors me is this - How often have you seen someone sentenced and a plea agreement accepted.....then it's further pursued after the fact? I understand the min sentence requirements - but I don't understand how they were not enforced at the first trial? After you work out a plea agreement and everyone signs off on it - How is a case re-opened?
This case is weird in how the sentencing has come about.
I do want to clear up some confusion: this case was the product of both a jury trial and a plea agreement. The Hammonds chose to take the guilt/innocence phase to a jury who convicted them on some of the charges. While the jury was deliberating, the Hammonds and the State came to an agreement on punishment and that is where the plea agreeement part comes in. In that plea agreement, the Hammonds agreed to be sentenced to the five year minimum and for the sentences to run at the same time (concurrently) so that they did not serve five on one and then five on another.
When the sentencing hearing took place, the Hammonds agreed to the five year minimum and the Judge accepted that plea. The Court, however, took it's own initiative and found that imposing such a sentence would be a violation of the 8th Amendment (freedom from cruel and unusual punishment) and lessened the sentence on it's own. That is highly unusual. What you typically see in criminal cases is that someone is sentenced and as part of the appeal process, you argue that the sentence is cruel and unusual in the appeallate courts and have the law declared unconstitutional. In this case, the Judge skipped that huge step and just said "I'm finding it against the law and am changing it." The Judge really doesn't have the authority to do this because that's not the process the case must take to have such a law challenged, declared unconstitutional and a new, more appropriate sentence entered.
So what the Judge basically did was screw everything up. By short-circuiting things, it made it where the Hammonds did not have the ability to challenge the law on appeal because they were given a more appropriate punishment and they couldn't get it changed that way. The prosecutors were stuck with an issue of the law being violated by a Judge who went rouge and they had to challenge the sentence as part of their job. This lessor sentence was really against the law.
So what's happened now is that the State has filed legal paperwork to have the appellate court review what this Judge did, that Court said "Oh, that's wrong. That Judge can't do that" and the case was sent back for re-sentencing in front of that first Court the way it should have been all along. That's why the Court is now saying we have to follow the law and impose this minimum sentence that should have been done all along.
In short, the Judge messed everything up but it wasn't done in a malicious way. In trying to do the right thing and return some common sense to the system, the Judge was trying to knock out a few steps in this instance and actually give the Hammonds something that they were not entitled to by law. This Judge was really sympathetic to their plight. The way it was done is just not how you do that by law and that's what's now being corrected by the Hammonds serving this five year sentence. Hopefully their attorneys now can start filing that paperwork to have this statute declared inconstitutional on the basis of that mandatory minimum being a cruel and unusual punishment and we can see some changes that way.
I only want to correct you on the fact that it was not the State that pushed this issue:Sometime in June 2014, Rhonda Karges, Field Manager for the BLM, and her husband Chad Karges, Refuge Manager for the Malheur Wildlife Refuge (which surrounds the Hammond ranch), along with attorney Frank Papagni exemplified further vindictive behavior by filing an appeal with the 9th District Federal Court seeking Dwight’s and Steven’s return to federal prison for the entire 5 years.This is a good summary of the time frame (I think it was posted early on this thread?) it's also interesting to note that the refuge or the blm, it says in this, have the 'first right of refusal' in the event it's ever sold: http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/ | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-02-01 11:00 AM Red Raider - 2016-02-01 9:26 AM jbhoot - 2016-02-01 7:34 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ I agree with this. I agree with this too and I watch police videos of stops, shootings and other stuff for a living. He had many chances to do a different thing to protect his life and didn't do one of them at any time. It's sad but it's what happened.
I know people have posted that the Sheriff was two-crossing them on saying he was somewhere and was at the roadblock scene. I'm glad that they actually planned this in a remote area instead of having a major shootout in town by other people and where innocent people could be shot in cross-fire. The Feds and other agencies made the determination to act on this day and at this time. They knew the potential for something bad was going to happen -- hence the bird in the sky filming stuff when typically it would all be done on ground because they knew people would be analyzing everything done that day. They chose a remote area and held back traffic on that road in case a chase ensued and thank God -- did you see how Lavoy was driving all over the road when he was running? I remember watching the video the first time and thinking "Wow, I hope to God nobody is coming up that road." The Sheriff asking them to come to the meeting was one of many ways that they were trying to avoid a Waco Situation and do this on a more peaceful level.
I'm glad you're glad that they decided to murder someone on the sly instead of where they actually took the stand...I know that was said of David Koresh during the Waco killings so I can understand the sentiment...except, of course, I will never give the feds a 'free pass' to kill anyone who's not a threat to anyone except the government.
The 'potential' the fed was afraid of (and still are) is the 'spread of the virus'...they said it themselves. People asserting the Constitution...which, as an attorney, you likely know very well that it's not welcome in the courts, people have been charged with 'contempt' for daring to bring it up to certain judges.
It's possible that Lavoy was driving erratically because they were being shot at.
The fed are pushing this issue to one that could be become even more deadly...as many know that the courts are not 'nuetral'. Especially not the federal courts.
Don't attribute words to me that I didn't say. I'm not "glad" that Lavoy is dead and that he didn't get a chance to air his grievances in court. I don't think the government is perfect in how they act but I will give them credit for the things they do try to do right. It could have been much worse for innocent people involved. Saying that Lavoy screwed up by some of his actions is also an acknowledgement that he and his followers are not perfect either. They made some bad choices. I've never walked into court with a case that didn't have some f*ck-ups on both sides -- so I'm not afraid to point out those facts while still arguing overall that something isn't right. That's reality and the arena I play in everyday. I'm sorry that upsets you but don't say I'm glad about something happening when that's not the case.
If the Feds really wanted this hidden, they could have easily covered it up much more than they are doing now. They didn't have to have a helicopter in the air filming everything and they didn't have to disclose that film so early in the process. Could they have done it better? Hell, yes. Why didn't they deploy those flashing devices on the first stop instead of shooting? Why didn't they have more vehicles along that route that would have made it impossible for Lavoy to drive that far, pick up that amount of speed and come around a corner into a blind barricade? Their choice, their mistake.
The more people push this agenda that the courts aren't fair, the more they are going to find it to be true because you will see people not fighting at all because they've been convinced it's not so. Part of what I have to do daily is shore-up people into at least believing they do have rights, even in an impossible situation. It's usually not the rights they want or how they want the proceedings to go but it's not hopeless or impossible to combat. When you say you can't get a fair shake in court, juries won't try to make it where that's possible because they've been programmed to see it one way. I don't understand why people who are wanting change say stuff like this -- it's like shooting yourself in the foot.
Making change through the courts is not an easy business. It takes time and lots of it and the perfect case to do it with. Those cases are possible one in a thousand at best. Most court hearings aren't publicized and attorneys aren't making the news for huge rulings unless something goes wrong or it's outrageous in a fact basis. Judge's like the one the Hammonds originally had are only making the news for causing controversy and not for the huge gains that actually took place. You don't see a Judge flat out refusing to implement under a minimum sentence. It's unheard of like an urban legend or myth. The only news articles I read where a simple blurb about the sentencing itself. No one looked further to report on what a huge deal it was to do something like that. The changes are quiet but they are happening. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Red Raider - 2016-02-01 9:35 AM I've read on this thread many references to the notion that going through the courts or trying to fix government through the legal process is not working. Case in point, many of you are focused on passing around the petition to free the Hammonds and have attention brought to their situation. I think that's great and it's a good thing. The problem I see with this is that it's a bandaid fix to a bigger problem that has the potential to bring abuse to citizens over and over.
I say band-aid fix because you guys are basically asking that an exception be made to a law that actually needs to be rewritten. Finney posted earlier about the problems with mandatory minimums and I can tell you, anybody involved in criminal prosecutions and defense have some pretty strong viewpoints on this one issue alone. As a current defense attorney and ex-prosecutor, I generally hate them. I think it takes away from a jury's right to assess a proper punishment and it keeps common sense from entering the situation when it is needed.
I know people are upset about the Hammonds being forced to go back to jail but it's the law. Asking for their situation to be resolved only helps them. It doesn't do anything for hundreds of other people the BLM can target and try under this same law. So while you are signing that petition on behalf of the Hammonds, you really also need to be concentrating on contacting your legislators on having that particular law -- especially the minimum range -- revisited and rewrote. That's real change. That's how you actually do it. If not, you'll be one of the millions complaining that going through the court's doesn't work and nothing will ever get changed unless we bring violence or man-power into the situation. No -- you need to learn how to fight right before you can say it's not working. God Bless you all but you're not fighting right. Keep fighting but learn and understand and recalibrate when you know how to do it better.
It's not a 'notion' that it's not working...show me one case where it is...please....I want to believe in our system, so far, I cannot. It's true that freeing the Hammonds is about one case in particular where citizens were wrongly accused and convicted of being terrorists...the 'bandaide approach' is too simple, that is why the Bundy's and fellow patriots took over the refuge...because they realize that the courts will not fix this, they brought attention to the fact that the very foundation of our country is cracked and will be destroyed if we don't wake the h*** up. This won't be 'fixed' in a court room. We don't have time. RIGHT NOW we're fighting here in Utah to prevent Obama from designating more national monuments at the end of this year! And that's just Utah! Do you honestly think we can put all this on 'hold' until the federal courts decide to not protect the federal gov't? Ha. Ain't gonna happen...ever. This isn't about how Lavoy was killed it's about why he was killed....come on, the feds knew he wasn't going to allow them to arrest him...lmaol! They weren't protecting the general public from the Patriots...they are instilling fear in the hearts of American Citizens so they may continue with their land grab...which will leave all of us under the rule of a king. And it's working.
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | I missed what appears to be a person shooting and them turning and running on all of the other videos - but this one points out what appears to be just that. I had seen it discussed - but I always had my eye on the person on the right standing in the road with gun drawn. Never noticed what appears to be the first shot. I don't know how long or if additional information will be released. But it will be very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mttvMrbFX0o#t=112
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-02-01 11:26 AM
I only want to correct you on the fact that it was not the State that pushed this issue:
Sometime in June 2014, Rhonda Karges, Field Manager for the BLM, and her husband Chad Karges, Refuge Manager for the Malheur Wildlife Refuge (which surrounds the Hammond ranch), along with attorney Frank Papagni exemplified further vindictive behavior by filing an appeal with the 9th District Federal Court seeking Dwight’s and Steven’s return to federal prison for the entire 5 years.
This is a good summary of the time frame (I think it was posted early on this thread?) it's also interesting to note that the refuge or the blm, it says in this, have the 'first right of refusal' in the event it's ever sold:
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
And I will correct you with actual court dockets and not an article written by a third party:
https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/ord/98227/
As you will see, initial sentencing in the matter took place on October 31, 2012, in which the Judge imposed the alternate sentence over the five year plea agreement. The State (USA, Feds or however you want to categorize them) filed thier Notice of Appeal (#215 on that docket list) on November 6, 2012, well within their time limit to do so. Appeallate notices must be done within certain time limits. Filing something in June 2014 --which you can see was never done because they aren't any filings in 2014 -- was well outside of the deadline to file an appeal.
The 9th Circuit Court accepted the appeal on the sentencing issue (said yes, there's something that needs to be looked at) and placed it on their own docket for hearing. The case was finally heard on March 25, 2015, by that Court (see #222 entry) and they vacated (i.e., erased the sentence) and remanded it (i.e., sent it back to the original court) for re-sentencing. That's how the case ended up coming back.
I'm not using my PACE access to pull up the original appeal grounds (I don't think I can publish those docs online if I do) but this supplemental memo explains the State's reasoning on why they did appeal and what they argued. It has nothing to do with land sales, the refuge or anything of that nature. It's simply the government arguing that the law should be followed and that what the Judge did was illegal.
https://www.unitedstatescourts.org/federal/ord/98227/228-0.html | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Red Raider - 2016-02-01 10:29 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-01 11:00 AM Red Raider - 2016-02-01 9:26 AM jbhoot - 2016-02-01 7:34 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 9:47 PM Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions..
not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it..
doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ I agree with this. I agree with this too and I watch police videos of stops, shootings and other stuff for a living. He had many chances to do a different thing to protect his life and didn't do one of them at any time. It's sad but it's what happened.
I know people have posted that the Sheriff was two-crossing them on saying he was somewhere and was at the roadblock scene. I'm glad that they actually planned this in a remote area instead of having a major shootout in town by other people and where innocent people could be shot in cross-fire. The Feds and other agencies made the determination to act on this day and at this time. They knew the potential for something bad was going to happen -- hence the bird in the sky filming stuff when typically it would all be done on ground because they knew people would be analyzing everything done that day. They chose a remote area and held back traffic on that road in case a chase ensued and thank God -- did you see how Lavoy was driving all over the road when he was running? I remember watching the video the first time and thinking "Wow, I hope to God nobody is coming up that road." The Sheriff asking them to come to the meeting was one of many ways that they were trying to avoid a Waco Situation and do this on a more peaceful level.
I'm glad you're glad that they decided to murder someone on the sly instead of where they actually took the stand...I know that was said of David Koresh during the Waco killings so I can understand the sentiment...except, of course, I will never give the feds a 'free pass' to kill anyone who's not a threat to anyone except the government.
The 'potential' the fed was afraid of (and still are) is the 'spread of the virus'...they said it themselves. People asserting the Constitution...which, as an attorney, you likely know very well that it's not welcome in the courts, people have been charged with 'contempt' for daring to bring it up to certain judges.
It's possible that Lavoy was driving erratically because they were being shot at.
The fed are pushing this issue to one that could be become even more deadly...as many know that the courts are not 'nuetral'. Especially not the federal courts.
Don't attribute words to me that I didn't say. I'm not "glad" that Lavoy is dead and that he didn't get a chance to air his grievances in court. I don't think the government is perfect in how they act but I will give them credit for the things they do try to do right. It could have been much worse for innocent people involved. Saying that Lavoy screwed up by some of his actions is also an acknowledgement that he and his followers are not perfect either. They made some bad choices. I've never walked into court with a case that didn't have some f*ck-ups on both sides -- so I'm not afraid to point out those facts while still arguing overall that something isn't right. That's reality and the arena I play in everyday. I'm sorry that upsets you but don't say I'm glad about something happening when that's not the case.
If the Feds really wanted this hidden, they could have easily covered it up much more than they are doing now. They didn't have to have a helicopter in the air filming everything and they didn't have to disclose that film so early in the process. Could they have done it better? Hell, yes. Why didn't they deploy those flashing devices on the first stop instead of shooting? Why didn't they have more vehicles along that route that would have made it impossible for Lavoy to drive that far, pick up that amount of speed and come around a corner into a blind barricade? Their choice, their mistake.
The more people push this agenda that the courts aren't fair, the more they are going to find it to be true because you will see people not fighting at all because they've been convinced it's not so. Part of what I have to do daily is shore-up people into at least believing they do have rights, even in an impossible situation. It's usually not the rights they want or how they want the proceedings to go but it's not hopeless or impossible to combat. When you say you can't get a fair shake in court, juries won't try to make it where that's possible because they've been programmed to see it one way. I don't understand why people who are wanting change say stuff like this -- it's like shooting yourself in the foot.
Making change through the courts is not an easy business. It takes time and lots of it and the perfect case to do it with. Those cases are possible one in a thousand at best. Most court hearings aren't publicized and attorneys aren't making the news for huge rulings unless something goes wrong or it's outrageous in a fact basis. Judge's like the one the Hammonds originally had are only making the news for causing controversy and not for the huge gains that actually took place. You don't see a Judge flat out refusing to implement under a minimum sentence. It's unheard of like an urban legend or myth. The only news articles I read where a simple blurb about the sentencing itself. No one looked further to report on what a huge deal it was to do something like that. The changes are quiet but they are happening.
The highlighted is how I took it. They did it the way they did it because they were expecting a 'shootout'...one they could prove easily with the 2 drones they had in the air. Remember a couple months back when a man was arrested in Florida for handing out the juror handbook to jurors in front of a courthouse? The courts are not the venue to fix unconstitutional law evidently...it's all so messed up, it's about whatever is feasible, not the truth and a judge, any judge, allows and disallows whatsoever he wants, which is what makes a jury trial a joke...and meanwhile our prisons are overflowing with with prisoners of victimless crimes. The judge in the Hammond case retired the day of sentencing btw. A very good friend of ours was given a sentence (federal court...it was a precedent case back in 2002 {?}) of probation and the 3rd district court came back and insisted on a minimum 18 months. Again, victimless crime...he was going thru a bad divorce and his wife put an exparte against him, the local judge said he could still have his guns (he was a licensed dealer) and she then got the feds on him under the RICO act. What a joke. I've lost faith in our system, I see it as completely corrupt...and I know I'm not alone.
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 12:00 PM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS.
Who was a danger to the citizens around them and who was a danger to those in power? That's your why. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | cruise - 2016-02-01 10:43 AM I missed what appears to be a person shooting and them turning and running on all of the other videos - but this one points out what appears to be just that. I had seen it discussed - but I always had my eye on the person on the right standing in the road with gun drawn. Never noticed what appears to be the first shot. I don't know how long or if additional information will be released. But it will be very interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mttvMrbFX0o#t=112
Jeez...sure seems like it... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-01 12:04 PM Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 12:00 PM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. Who was a danger to the citizens around them and who was a danger to those in power? That's your why.
I couldn't agree more. They were worried that the movement would grow.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's another video...I have a hard time watching these, but, I think it's important considering what's at stake and what he was killed for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sJo-7aCYu4&sns=fb | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 1:00 PM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS.
Yes and I have always been for the reasons.. But I cant say cold blooded ambush murder.. I can be for one but not agree with the other.. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | I agree and yes, they are are hard to watch. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 11:54 AM Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 1:00 PM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. Yes and I have always been for the reasons.. But I cant say cold blooded ambush murder.. I can be for one but not agree with the other..
If you can watch this and still believe that...after all the pieces available so far, then I'm really nervous about the future of our world. http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/01/31/second-eyewitness-chronicling-the-tragic-ambush-and-murder-of-lavoy-finicum-video/ | |
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| I just watched the high resolution video...I realize he had nothing in his hands....but it looked like he kept putting his hands up, and then down, almost as if he was reaching into his jacket......am I think ONLY one that saw it that way? I am all for what those ranchers stand for...so please dont think that I am in any way against them. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2016-02-01 2:15 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 11:54 AM Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 1:00 PM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. Yes and I have always been for the reasons.. But I cant say cold blooded ambush murder.. I can be for one but not agree with the other.. If you can watch this and still believe that...after all the pieces available so far, then I'm really nervous about the future of our world.
http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/01/31/second-eyewitness-chronicling-the-tragic-ambush-and-murder-of-lavoy-finicum-video/
There are several pieces out there.. and concerned about the future of our world because I dont agree with you is a bit dramatic.. you dont know what happened anymore then I do.. you cant convince me no more then I can convince you.. we will have to wait it out.. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
      Location: sunny california | Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 10:00 AM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS.
If you want to compare this to Ferguson. I wonder how many ranchers would get shot down if they started rioting the towns in oregon...
the timeline goes...first "criminals" threaten "authority", then they get shot, then all the angry people get to riot and nothing happens. | |
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 Expert
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| MOTIVATED - 2016-02-01 1:17 PM
I just watched the high resolution video...I realize he had nothing in his hands....but it looked like he kept putting his hands up, and then down, almost as if he was reaching into his jacket......am I think ONLY one that saw it that way? I am all for what those ranchers stand for...so please dont think that I am in any way against them.
No, we all saw the same thing but now there is question as to whether he had been gut shot prior to dropping his hands and he was reaching for the wound. We will never know until/if an autopsy is released.
It appears to me that this theory may be plausible as you see his shoulders slump over and his torso suck in while he is facing the agent next to the vehicle, he then drops his hands down, raises them back up turns around and reaches for his chest, some are speculating he was shot in the back and he may have been reaching toward an exit wound before he was killed with the fatal shot.
The video does not show any muzzle blast or weapon recoil, not from the definite shot or from the other two speculated shots which seems odd to me. I would think, you would be able to see both especially in the higher resolution videos. Coming from a hunting background I do see where people are saying he was gut shot as he does respond much like a gut shot animal before he turns around. All speculation of course.
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | kwanatha - 2016-02-01 1:40 PM Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 10:00 AM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. If you want to compare this to Ferguson. I wonder how many ranchers would get shot down if they started rioting the towns in oregon...
the timeline goes...first "criminals" threaten "authority", then they get shot, then all the angry people get to riot and nothing happens.
And they continue to bow down to the thugs. I don't think it would go like this for the ranchers.
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| cyount2009 - 2016-02-01 1:48 PM
MOTIVATED - 2016-02-01 1:17 PM
I just watched the high resolution video...I realize he had nothing in his hands....but it looked like he kept putting his hands up, and then down, almost as if he was reaching into his jacket......am I think ONLY one that saw it that way? I am all for what those ranchers stand for...so please dont think that I am in any way against them.
No, we all saw the same thing but now there is question as to whether he had been gut shot prior to dropping his hands and he was reaching for the wound. We will never know until/if an autopsy is released.
It appears to me that this theory may be plausible as you see his shoulders slump over and his torso suck in while he is facing the agent next to the vehicle, he then drops his hands down, raises them back up turns around and reaches for his chest, some are speculating he was shot in the back and he may have been reaching toward an exit wound before he was killed with the fatal shot.
The video does not show any muzzle blast or weapon recoil, not from the definite shot or from the other two speculated shots which seems odd to me. I would think, you would be able to see both especially in the higher resolution videos. Coming from a hunting background I do see where people are saying he was gut shot as he does respond much like a gut shot animal before he turns around. All speculation of course.
I heard on a FB post that he was shot 9 times? and that the serial number to the 9mm he was said to have in his jacket was stolen 2 years ago and may have been planted. NONE of that has been confirmed.
Edited by MOTIVATED 2016-02-01 2:02 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 12:23 PM musikmaker - 2016-02-01 2:15 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 11:54 AM Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 1:00 PM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. Yes and I have always been for the reasons.. But I cant say cold blooded ambush murder.. I can be for one but not agree with the other.. If you can watch this and still believe that...after all the pieces available so far, then I'm really nervous about the future of our world. http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/01/31/second-eyewitness-chronicling-the-tragic-ambush-and-murder-of-lavoy-finicum-video/ There are several pieces out there.. and concerned about the future of our world because I dont agree with you is a bit dramatic.. you dont know what happened anymore then I do.. you cant convince me no more then I can convince you.. we will have to wait it out.. Lol...true that! I get frustrated because those of us that live 'out west' feel like we're being studied through a microscope...as if what happens here is just something 'kinda interesting' but not a big deal...when it really, honestly is. I'm not trying to be dramatic, but, there's so many pieces that have accumilated through the years that I don't think it possible to put it all together without having 'lived' it. This is about our Constitution...about States Rights...about federal overreach. Here's a couple decent fb pages (and home pages) that better explain the position of the states and why many of us feel it's pertinent to re-establish our control over our own lives and land so we may enjoy self governance. If we lose it out here...that virus will spread. Along with a Constitutional attorney: https://www.facebook.com/krisanne.hall/?fref=ts http://krisannehall.com/ https://www.facebook.com/AmericanLandsCouncil/?fref=ts http://www.americanlandscouncil.org/ https://www.facebook.com/tenthamendmentcenter/?fref=ts http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/
eta: Thank you all for taking the time to educate yourselves and to hopefully understand that since it's still considered 'public land' then those who live east have a huge voice in how we are allowed to live out here...we don't have the same rights as you, we aren't 'equal citizens'.
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-01 2:14 PM
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
      Location: sunny california | Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 12:01 PM kwanatha - 2016-02-01 1:40 PM Nevertooold - 2016-02-01 10:00 AM Does it not bother anyone else how our government picks and chooses on who can stand for their beliefs and who can't? We watched Ferguson and Baltimore get destroyed by thugs and the police were told to stand down and let them do it. We watched occupiers disrupt Wall Street. A handful of ranchers occupying a preserve that is shut down for the winter was just too much for them. I call total BS. If you want to compare this to Ferguson. I wonder how many ranchers would get shot down if they started rioting the towns in oregon...
the timeline goes...first "criminals" threaten "authority", then they get shot, then all the angry people get to riot and nothing happens.
And they continue to bow down to the thugs. I don't think it would go like this for the ranchers.
yes different set of rules | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
      Location: sunny california | It just makes me mad that these ranchers get labeled terrorists, when everyone knows that terrorism is an offensive game. these ranchers are clearly playing defense. | |
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Elite Veteran
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| Don't have time to read all the pages of conspiracy stuff, but thought this was an interesting passage from an article on the Tri-State Livestock news, www.tsln.com. Quoting one of the self-elected "Safety Committee". And this from a paper who is sympathetic and keeps softballing the coverage.
"The last time he stopped in, Williams, a member of the newly formed “Committee of Safety” in Harney County, said he delivered a letter kindly asking the protesters to leave. “We wanted them to go home so we could work on what we wanted to do.”
And now Williams hopes the feds will go home, so everyone can get back to work. “I don’t want Harney County going back to how it was. I’d like to go back to work on this dream of having our resources back – putting money back in to the counties around here. I’d like to see if we can get that done.”
Williams hopes all or most of Oregon’s counties with large percentages of federal lands will put together plans for more local land management. “We do have grazing rights on that ground that are more valuable than the ground itself,” he said, adding that he hopes to somehow effect policy change that puts the land under county, rather than federal management.
“Oregon is losing $2 million per year on land management. Once we get up and going the counties and state could be making two to three times that much.” If ranchers knew their grazing fees were going to support local activity like schools, hospital and county needs, most would not mind paying higher fees, he said. “I’m sure people would step up and pay.”
Yes, I'm sure all the ranchers with Federal leases would be delighted to pay more to graze their cattle. I hate to say "I told you so.", but a return to local control of all that land doesn't mean ranchers would just get it all like is implied. It would just mean that it would be sold or leased to the highest bidder, used, abused, and thrown away when all the income is squeezed out by the powers that be that lurk in the shadows and drive the ignorant to do their dirty work. And all those nice families that are federal employees, I heard 40% of the work force, they would have to move, but that would leave a lot of empty houses so the militia goofballs could move in, but of course that would destroy the housing market and the locals could start worrying that their little girls and boys might be targets to all those people with felony records. With all those families leaving, the stores will probably have to close, but I bet the bars will be hopping, then the drunks will be shooting up the town, but that should jump the need for doctors, or undertakers. Yes, everything will be hunky dory if the ranchers can get the Feds out of their business. Then the next time the federal government comes begging those ranchers to please take those disaster payments for drought or blizzards or fire, or cost shares on improvements, why those ranchers can just kick sand in their face and say "Git lost. We don't need your stinkin' money!" That will show the government.
Remember, be careful what you wish for. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | kwanatha - 2016-02-01 2:16 PM It just makes me mad that these ranchers get labeled terrorists, when everyone knows that terrorism is an offensive game. these ranchers are clearly playing defense.
Exactly. Terrorists are a threat to us all. I don't feel the least bit in danger from these guys. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | And the real terrorists are called "Refugees" | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
      Location: sunny california | Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 1:03 PM And the real terrorists are called "Refugees"
I know it is like a word game! | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-01 2:27 PM kwanatha - 2016-02-01 2:16 PM It just makes me mad that these ranchers get labeled terrorists, when everyone knows that terrorism is an offensive game. these ranchers are clearly playing defense. Exactly. Terrorists are a threat to us all. I don't feel the least bit in danger from these guys.
I think both sides have blown the terrorism link to the actual law name out of proportion and have tried to get as much mileage as they can out of it. People who understand how laws are made and work with them are shaking their heads on this one -- it's not completely out of context but you can make it so by how you want to use it or abuse it.
Law names/classifications don't always match what you would think or what you think it should be. Let's say that I find out my boyfriend is cheating on me and I go over to confront the lady that's doing the nasty with him. I walk up to her door, we get into a fight in her doorway and the cops are called. In Texas I'm going to be charged with Burglary of a Habitation for that set of conduct. Does it mean that I'm a thief or a burglarer? No, it just means that's the law I'm charged under because Texas doesn't have another one that they use for such conduct. To be convicted of Burglary of a Habitation, the State has to prove (1) that I entered a home without consent of the owner and (2) I intended to commit another crime when I did so. It's a stupid law classification and misleading but it is what it is. Same for what the Hammonds were actually charged under -- it's a bunch of laws couched under a stupid classification:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/01/the_aedpa_was_used_to_prosecute_oregon_hammond_ranchers.html | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 3:03 PM And the real terrorists are called "Refugees"
And here in Texas, even 90 year old woman are getting concealed to carry permits. At least Texas women are deciding they aren't going to just let someone rape or rob them as you know the liberals feel you should just let them do it as a rape usually only takes a few minutes. Sick... | |
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| https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photo...
Citizens for Constitutional Freedom Support Group
Like This Page · January 29 · Edited ·
The FBI says that LaVoy reached twice for a 9mm gun inside his jacket on the left hip area. However, LaVoy carried a revolver on his right hip in a holster. The video shows that LaVoy's jacket was closed at the time he was shot. Why would a right-handed man who carries a revolver openly on his right hip choose to leave his holster behind and instead hide another man's 9mm gun on the inside of a jacket around his left hip? It's as preposterous as the FBI's thoroughly debunked claim that federal agents did not start the fires that burned 80+ men, women and children alive at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas.
The FBI is lying. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at one time at the first stop when Ryan put his hands and head out the window to speak to the feds. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at several times as he drove away to seek the help and protection from the Grant County Sheriff. LaVoy's windshield was shot from the front by an agent who jumped out in front of the vehicle at the second stop.
LaVoy was transporting an 18 year old girl with him who was visiting with her family to sing gospel music at the town hall they were traveling to. To save her, Shawna and Ryan Bundy, LaVoy jumped out of the vehicle with his hands in the air. He yelled out that if they were going to shoot someone, to shoot him. With his hands in the air, that is exactly what they did.
The first shot struck him on the left side of his body. His body began to buckle and his hands went down to the wound but he was ordered to put his hands back in the air. He tried to do so, but naturally returned his hands back to the wound. He turned and pointed at the vehicle, yelling out that there were women in it. Rushing up behind him, another agent put a laser pointer on LaVoy and shot him in the face. He was still moving on the ground when they shot him three more times.
It was cold-blooded murder. And the American people will not forget it. LaVoy is a martyr for the cause of justice and liberty. We will not stop fighting for our freedom. Harney County Oregon is our Bunker Hill. This is only the beginning.
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Expert
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| Very disturbing to watch a innocent man being man being murderednandnill bet they get away with it. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | MOTIVATED - 2016-02-01 5:12 PM https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photo... Citizens for Constitutional Freedom Support Group Like This Page · January 29 · Edited · The FBI says that LaVoy reached twice for a 9mm gun inside his jacket on the left hip area. However, LaVoy carried a revolver on his right hip in a holster. The video shows that LaVoy's jacket was closed at the time he was shot. Why would a right-handed man who carries a revolver openly on his right hip choose to leave his holster behind and instead hide another man's 9mm gun on the inside of a jacket around his left hip? It's as preposterous as the FBI's thoroughly debunked claim that federal agents did not start the fires that burned 80+ men, women and children alive at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. The FBI is lying. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at one time at the first stop when Ryan put his hands and head out the window to speak to the feds. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at several times as he drove away to seek the help and protection from the Grant County Sheriff. LaVoy's windshield was shot from the front by an agent who jumped out in front of the vehicle at the second stop. LaVoy was transporting an 18 year old girl with him who was visiting with her family to sing gospel music at the town hall they were traveling to. To save her, Shawna and Ryan Bundy, LaVoy jumped out of the vehicle with his hands in the air. He yelled out that if they were going to shoot someone, to shoot him. With his hands in the air, that is exactly what they did. The first shot struck him on the left side of his body. His body began to buckle and his hands went down to the wound but he was ordered to put his hands back in the air. He tried to do so, but naturally returned his hands back to the wound. He turned and pointed at the vehicle, yelling out that there were women in it. Rushing up behind him, another agent put a laser pointer on LaVoy and shot him in the face. He was still moving on the ground when they shot him three more times. It was cold-blooded murder. And the American people will not forget it. LaVoy is a martyr for the cause of justice and liberty. We will not stop fighting for our freedom. Harney County Oregon is our Bunker Hill. This is only the beginning.
you also did not look or read the link I posted.. He clearly carried on BOTH sides.. just clarifying that.. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Don't stop digging, learning...understanding. I have heard, btw, that Lavoy was shot 9 times, it will be a closed casket funeral. http://www.americanlandscouncil.org/farm_bureau_leader_calls_out_feds_on_burn_policy | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | This guy has some great points -
I need to say this..or post this. Publically I've stayed quiet long enough. Some of you know my attachment to the Finicum family and how hard I've tried to get his message out. Here are some of my personal thoughts.
1. LaVoy had a stellar reputation in his church, in his community and with other ranchers. He'd worked with the BLM and other Government agencies for YEARS. He paid his fees and was an excellent steward of the land. He raised his family and took in the "truly bad" kids from foster care. He taught them values, he taught them self respect and self reliance. He was by all accounts a decent and honorable man.
2. He documented all the BLM aggressions on his property. Aggressions on his water and aggressions on his land in short videos on his Youtube.com channel. The FBI and BLM had come to Mohave county to be deputized so they could arrest him last fall. The Sheriff refused. That probably was the start of the governments hostility twords LaVoy Jeanette Finicum. The question being, could the BLM/FBI keep their unlawful actions quiet if their actions were being recorded? Could they continue to count on people to blindly follow their arbitrary rules if anyone stood up against them, using their own laws and documents as proof of the governments aggression?
3. Unlike Cliven Bundy, LaVoy was an excellent spokesperson for State's Rights, Rancher's rights and Land/ Property rights. He knew what he was talking about. I'm sure the Government was not thrilled with his knowledge and I'm sure they became more concerned as he spoke out against their heavy handed policies.
LaVoy took a stand against arbitrary application of policy. He took a stand against the BLM and FBI trying to steal his water, steal his land and steal his way of life.
Did I agree with how they went about it? I don't know. I've seen the HAGE case get run through the court system where the Government has an unlimited checkbook to fund the case and will continue to appeal until they achieve the desired result. See 9th curcuit decsion that came out in the begining of the year. Take a look at the Hammond case where 2 men were ordered back to prison after serving their time, labeled terrorists and fined so punitively, there is little doubt they will have to sell their ranch to the BLM to get out of debt. Look at Red River in Texas. You have the Government deciding to take several rancher's deeded land because they WANT it. Phil Lyman, county commissioner in Utah is labeled a FELON because he led an ATV ride in Blanding, Utah. Look at the case of DR. Redd in Blanding. Dan Love raided his home as well as several others because they had picked up some indian artifacts on their walks in the woods. He killed himself because of the shame and disgrace the BLM put him and his family through. The Great States of Utah and Nevada have tried for many years to get their state land back under their control so they can reap the economic benefits from their land...all to no avail.
So, when these guys entered the refuge in Oregon, do you think they felt they had exhausted all efforts to work within the system? Had they seen their neighbors and friends work their court cases through the system? Did they see their legislaters fail in their fights against the federal tyrany? Did they fear they were the last of a dying breed of people who by all accounts were discounted by all urban people who have zero idea where their food comes from? I'm sure they did. I'm sure there are other factors that were taken into consideration before they went to occupy the refuge. Did they think it would end in bloodshed? I will never know. What I do know with certainty is this: these men brought the question of land rights, state's rights and the aggressions of the US Government and their alphabet agencies to the front of the media, to the front of the general public and perhaps to people in power who actually have the abiltiy to change this scenerio.
We the people have an obligation to LaVoy, his family and every other rancher, as well as ourselves to keep this conversation going. To not let what these men started to fail, to be lost or to be swept under the rug. I hope some of you will put yourselves in LaVoy's boots today. Ask yourself the question: If I was in his boots, what would I have done? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
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"Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen.
Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus."
https://shar.es/1hMudQ
Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ...
Just sayin'........ | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
    Location: In The Land of Cotton | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-02 9:54 AM "Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen. Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus." https://shar.es/1hMudQ Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ... Just sayin'........
Finney, if you ranch, why do you appear to hate other ranchers so much?
I am not talking about law abiding citizens who want the government to stop the land grabbing, water grabbing through their new rules passed in DC and buried in legislation either. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | 3canstorun - 2016-02-02 9:22 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-02 9:54 AM "Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen. Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus." https://shar.es/1hMudQ Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ... Just sayin'........
Finney, if you ranch, why do you appear to hate other ranchers so much?
I am not talking about law abiding citizens who want the government to stop the land grabbing, water grabbing through their new rules passed in DC and buried in legislation either.
That is a valid question. From Finney's tone of posts, She hates the rural life period. For I have as of yet to read anything that would support anything other than what The Feds value.
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | https://soundcloud.com/idaho-on-your-side/angela-bundy-interview | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-01 2:25 PM Don't have time to read all the pages of conspiracy stuff, but thought this was an interesting passage from an article on the Tri-State Livestock news, www.tsln.com. Quoting one of the self-elected "Safety Committee". And this from a paper who is sympathetic and keeps softballing the coverage. "The last time he stopped in, Williams, a member of the newly formed “Committee of Safety” in Harney County, said he delivered a letter kindly asking the protesters to leave. “We wanted them to go home so we could work on what we wanted to do.” And now Williams hopes the feds will go home, so everyone can get back to work. “I don’t want Harney County going back to how it was. I’d like to go back to work on this dream of having our resources back – putting money back in to the counties around here. I’d like to see if we can get that done.” Williams hopes all or most of Oregon’s counties with large percentages of federal lands will put together plans for more local land management. “We do have grazing rights on that ground that are more valuable than the ground itself,” he said, adding that he hopes to somehow effect policy change that puts the land under county, rather than federal management. “Oregon is losing $2 million per year on land management. Once we get up and going the counties and state could be making two to three times that much.” If ranchers knew their grazing fees were going to support local activity like schools, hospital and county needs, most would not mind paying higher fees, he said. “I’m sure people would step up and pay.” Yes, I'm sure all the ranchers with Federal leases would be delighted to pay more to graze their cattle. I hate to say "I told you so.", but a return to local control of all that land doesn't mean ranchers would just get it all like is implied. It would just mean that it would be sold or leased to the highest bidder, used, abused, and thrown away when all the income is squeezed out by the powers that be that lurk in the shadows and drive the ignorant to do their dirty work. And all those nice families that are federal employees, I heard 40% of the work force, they would have to move, but that would leave a lot of empty houses so the militia goofballs could move in, but of course that would destroy the housing market and the locals could start worrying that their little girls and boys might be targets to all those people with felony records. With all those families leaving, the stores will probably have to close, but I bet the bars will be hopping, then the drunks will be shooting up the town, but that should jump the need for doctors, or undertakers. Yes, everything will be hunky dory if the ranchers can get the Feds out of their business. Then the next time the federal government comes begging those ranchers to please take those disaster payments for drought or blizzards or fire, or cost shares on improvements, why those ranchers can just kick sand in their face and say "Git lost. We don't need your stinkin' money!" That will show the government. Remember, be careful what you wish for.
http://farmwars.info/?p=14481 | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-02 8:54 AM "Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen. Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus." https://shar.es/1hMudQ Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ... Just sayin'........
Sorry Finney, but you are wrong. Dead wrong. I am from S.E. Oregon. I know first hand what has been going on. You on the other hand are reading liberal media rhetoric and buying it hook line and sinker. I have rancher friends in Burns, and Lakeview Oregon. This is all "MY country!! BIG ranches and that video you speak of is NOT "Bogus". I can also tell you one of my rancher friends in Lakeview had cattle up there on BLM land that fire you mentioned. BLM KNEW they were up there gathering to get their cattle out and BLM set more fires almost trapping them in!! They didnt care!!! They did NOT get all their cattle out. When they tried to find out just who was responsible, they all kept passing the buck all the way up to a head BLM guy that sits behind a desk giving orders for 3 states!! Of course, they take no responsability. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | https://www.facebook.com/lee.rice2/videos/10206505082398605/?pnref=story | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | This is a FB page from somebody who is in Burns. He has tons of video's on his page to show you just exactly what is going on in Burns. https://www.facebook.com/lee.rice2?fref=photo | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Please watch this. This will answere a lot of your questions Scott. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/theninjapastor/2016/01/30/first-hand-witness-to-the-murder-in-or-the-ninja-pastor-exclusive-interview
Edited by ThreeCorners 2016-02-02 11:37 AM
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | foundation horse - 2016-02-02 8:31 AM 3canstorun - 2016-02-02 9:22 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-02 9:54 AM "Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen. Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus." https://shar.es/1hMudQ Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ... Just sayin'........ Finney, if you ranch, why do you appear to hate other ranchers so much?
I am not talking about law abiding citizens who want the government to stop the land grabbing, water grabbing through their new rules passed in DC and buried in legislation either. That is a valid question. From Finney's tone of posts, She hates the rural life period. For I have as of yet to read anything that would support anything other than what The Feds value.
Because Finney is so brainwashed by the Liberal propoganda she is completely unable to think reasonably. I know people just like her. She is wired to be against any of the conservative minded people's opinions. No matter what any of the facts are. She wants to read and hear and believe what she wants to read, hear and believe. If she believes it, then by hell they are FACTS. It won't do any good to prove her wrong. When she's right she's right and when she's wrong, she's still right. Don'tcha know?
We've dealt with Finney on here for years, she will never change. It's better to just ignore.  | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-02 6:54 AM
"Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen.
Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus."
https://shar.es/1hMudQ
Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ...
Just sayin'........
I've seen that video. I remember the big stink it caused when it happened. I have also seen eyewitness video about who and how it started and the damage it did. What proof do YOU have that it's bogus since it made the news here in Oregon and I remember when it happened and was all over the news?
The fire video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcpzhOZq1JQ&list=PL7Mol14_Yd48osyTA2...
Young cowboy talking about the effects and who has something to gain by starting fires. https://www.facebook.com/saved/?cref=28 | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | OregonBR - 2016-02-02 12:50 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-02 6:54 AM "Now comes the Oregon chapter of the American Lands Council, a nonprofit that signs up organizations and local governments for a membership fee to fight for the transfer of public lands from the feds to states, has released a video on Facebook that appears to show U.S. Bureau of Land Management agents lighting fires in southern Oregon cattle country that blazed out of control, charring more than 700,000 acres, killing dozens of cows, burning several structures owned by ranchers and threatening the community of Frenchglen. Trouble is, the video's claim is bogus." https://shar.es/1hMudQ Rep. Ken Ivory’s American Lands Council seems to be taking a page out of The Center for Medical Progress’ playbook, releasing a misleading video to demonize an entity the right-wing hates. In the case of ... Just sayin'........ I've seen that video. I remember the big stink it caused when it happened. I have also seen eyewitness video about who and how it started and the damage it did. What proof do YOU have that it's bogus since it made the news here in Oregon and I remember when it happened and was all over the news? The fire video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcpzhOZq1JQ&list=PL7Mol14_Yd48os... Young cowboy talking about the effects and who has something to gain by starting fires. https://www.facebook.com/saved/?cref=28
Something like this is always called bogus by people when it doesn't fit their beliefs or shows their beliefs are pure BS. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1525
  
| Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 5:09 PM
MOTIVATED - 2016-02-01 5:12 PM https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photo... Citizens for Constitutional Freedom Support Group Like This Page · January 29 · Edited · The FBI says that LaVoy reached twice for a 9mm gun inside his jacket on the left hip area. However, LaVoy carried a revolver on his right hip in a holster. The video shows that LaVoy's jacket was closed at the time he was shot. Why would a right-handed man who carries a revolver openly on his right hip choose to leave his holster behind and instead hide another man's 9mm gun on the inside of a jacket around his left hip? It's as preposterous as the FBI's thoroughly debunked claim that federal agents did not start the fires that burned 80+ men, women and children alive at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. The FBI is lying. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at one time at the first stop when Ryan put his hands and head out the window to speak to the feds. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at several times as he drove away to seek the help and protection from the Grant County Sheriff. LaVoy's windshield was shot from the front by an agent who jumped out in front of the vehicle at the second stop. LaVoy was transporting an 18 year old girl with him who was visiting with her family to sing gospel music at the town hall they were traveling to. To save her, Shawna and Ryan Bundy, LaVoy jumped out of the vehicle with his hands in the air. He yelled out that if they were going to shoot someone, to shoot him. With his hands in the air, that is exactly what they did. The first shot struck him on the left side of his body. His body began to buckle and his hands went down to the wound but he was ordered to put his hands back in the air. He tried to do so, but naturally returned his hands back to the wound. He turned and pointed at the vehicle, yelling out that there were women in it. Rushing up behind him, another agent put a laser pointer on LaVoy and shot him in the face. He was still moving on the ground when they shot him three more times. It was cold-blooded murder. And the American people will not forget it. LaVoy is a martyr for the cause of justice and liberty. We will not stop fighting for our freedom. Harney County Oregon is our Bunker Hill. This is only the beginning.
you also did not look or read the link I posted.. He clearly carried on BOTH sides.. just clarifying that..
Just so you know...all I did was copy and paste what was on that link from Facebook....I didnt open or read any other links. I was just passing information. Nothing that I posted here was my personal opinion at all. I was just sharing info. SO NO...I did not look or read the link you posted.....all I did was copy and paste a link and article from Facebook. I dont know anything about which side or both sides that he may or may not have carried on....and don't really care....I think had he been black people would be rioting the streets right now.
Edited by MOTIVATED 2016-02-02 2:09 PM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | yes I meant you should read my link I put up or look at photos.. he clearly has holsters on both shoulders.. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1525
  
| Bibliafarm - 2016-02-02 2:10 PM
yes I meant you should read my link I put up or look at photos.. he clearly has holsters on both shoulders..
I see. Well, I am not really sure what I am looking at in the video...I am still trying to figure all of that out. To me he puts his hands up and down and even appears to be reaching under his jacket....but then someone said he may have been gut shot and thats why he dropped his hands and tried to put them back up...and he may have been...the problem is I really dont know, and cant really tell from the video.
Either way, had he been a different color, armed or not, and had his hands up at any time in that whole process people would be protesting, and looting and rioting. I just think it says a lot that we are willing to DEBATE what really may have or may not have happened instead of going to set Walgreens on fire. The fact that we are having a discussion at all about this is something that I wish "certain people" would take a few notes from.
People, are debating this, asking questions....educating themselves about it....not just assuming that he was a victim of the "cops" which, it dang sure looks like to me that he was...but maybe he was armed and reaching for a weapon...who really knows...only him, the people there and God himself. I believe in what he was standing up for...and I think he was brave to have died for something he believes in. I think its a shame that he had to though......I think that it surely could have been avoided going down that way.
I think an autopsy is going to tell us a lot about what happened. If he was indeed shot 9 times...but even then I am not sure that we will all have the real answer of what happened.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Yes autopsy will be telling ..
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | I got dollars to donuts that the autopsy results will never see the public light of day! | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | MOTIVATED - 2016-02-02 2:07 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 5:09 PM MOTIVATED - 2016-02-01 5:12 PM https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photo... Citizens for Constitutional Freedom Support Group Like This Page · January 29 · Edited · The FBI says that LaVoy reached twice for a 9mm gun inside his jacket on the left hip area. However, LaVoy carried a revolver on his right hip in a holster. The video shows that LaVoy's jacket was closed at the time he was shot. Why would a right-handed man who carries a revolver openly on his right hip choose to leave his holster behind and instead hide another man's 9mm gun on the inside of a jacket around his left hip? It's as preposterous as the FBI's thoroughly debunked claim that federal agents did not start the fires that burned 80+ men, women and children alive at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. The FBI is lying. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at one time at the first stop when Ryan put his hands and head out the window to speak to the feds. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at several times as he drove away to seek the help and protection from the Grant County Sheriff. LaVoy's windshield was shot from the front by an agent who jumped out in front of the vehicle at the second stop. LaVoy was transporting an 18 year old girl with him who was visiting with her family to sing gospel music at the town hall they were traveling to. To save her, Shawna and Ryan Bundy, LaVoy jumped out of the vehicle with his hands in the air. He yelled out that if they were going to shoot someone, to shoot him. With his hands in the air, that is exactly what they did. The first shot struck him on the left side of his body. His body began to buckle and his hands went down to the wound but he was ordered to put his hands back in the air. He tried to do so, but naturally returned his hands back to the wound. He turned and pointed at the vehicle, yelling out that there were women in it. Rushing up behind him, another agent put a laser pointer on LaVoy and shot him in the face. He was still moving on the ground when they shot him three more times. It was cold-blooded murder. And the American people will not forget it. LaVoy is a martyr for the cause of justice and liberty. We will not stop fighting for our freedom. Harney County Oregon is our Bunker Hill. This is only the beginning. you also did not look or read the link I posted.. He clearly carried on BOTH sides.. just clarifying that.. Just so you know...all I did was copy and paste what was on that link from Facebook....I didnt open or read any other links. I was just passing information. Nothing that I posted here was my personal opinion at all. I was just sharing info. SO NO...I did not look or read the link you posted.....all I did was copy and paste a link and article from Facebook. I dont know anything about which side or both sides that he may or may not have carried on....and don't really care....I think had he been black people would be rioting the streets right now.
Use quotes when words are not your own. It cuts down on confusion. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | foundation horse - 2016-02-02 3:43 PM I got dollars to donuts that the autopsy results will never see the public light of day!
I agree | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| foundation horse - 2016-02-02 2:43 PM
I got dollars to donuts that the autopsy results will never see the public light of day!
If the family does not request an autopsy of their own then, no, I do not believe it will ever be released. If the family does not order their own autopsy or does so and does not release the findings, I think that will say a lot about the situation without saying anything.
I hope for the sake of his fight with the BLM, they have the autopsy done and release it.
Edited by cyount2009 2016-02-02 3:01 PM
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  Roan Wonder
         Location: SW MO | foundation horse - 2016-02-02 2:43 PM
I got dollars to donuts that the autopsy results will never see the public light of day!
You'll have to look for them with the Kennedy files | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1525
  
| Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-02 2:50 PM
MOTIVATED - 2016-02-02 2:07 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-01 5:09 PM MOTIVATED - 2016-02-01 5:12 PM https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photo... Citizens for Constitutional Freedom Support Group Like This Page · January 29 · Edited · The FBI says that LaVoy reached twice for a 9mm gun inside his jacket on the left hip area. However, LaVoy carried a revolver on his right hip in a holster. The video shows that LaVoy's jacket was closed at the time he was shot. Why would a right-handed man who carries a revolver openly on his right hip choose to leave his holster behind and instead hide another man's 9mm gun on the inside of a jacket around his left hip? It's as preposterous as the FBI's thoroughly debunked claim that federal agents did not start the fires that burned 80+ men, women and children alive at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. The FBI is lying. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at one time at the first stop when Ryan put his hands and head out the window to speak to the feds. LaVoy's vehicle was shot at several times as he drove away to seek the help and protection from the Grant County Sheriff. LaVoy's windshield was shot from the front by an agent who jumped out in front of the vehicle at the second stop. LaVoy was transporting an 18 year old girl with him who was visiting with her family to sing gospel music at the town hall they were traveling to. To save her, Shawna and Ryan Bundy, LaVoy jumped out of the vehicle with his hands in the air. He yelled out that if they were going to shoot someone, to shoot him. With his hands in the air, that is exactly what they did. The first shot struck him on the left side of his body. His body began to buckle and his hands went down to the wound but he was ordered to put his hands back in the air. He tried to do so, but naturally returned his hands back to the wound. He turned and pointed at the vehicle, yelling out that there were women in it. Rushing up behind him, another agent put a laser pointer on LaVoy and shot him in the face. He was still moving on the ground when they shot him three more times. It was cold-blooded murder. And the American people will not forget it. LaVoy is a martyr for the cause of justice and liberty. We will not stop fighting for our freedom. Harney County Oregon is our Bunker Hill. This is only the beginning. you also did not look or read the link I posted.. He clearly carried on BOTH sides.. just clarifying that.. Just so you know...all I did was copy and paste what was on that link from Facebook....I didnt open or read any other links. I was just passing information. Nothing that I posted here was my personal opinion at all. I was just sharing info. SO NO...I did not look or read the link you posted.....all I did was copy and paste a link and article from Facebook. I dont know anything about which side or both sides that he may or may not have carried on....and don't really care....I think had he been black people would be rioting the streets right now.
Use quotes when words are not your own. It cuts down on confusion.
I'll do that next time. I figured posting the link with it was enough. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1525
  
| cyount2009 - 2016-02-02 3:00 PM
foundation horse - 2016-02-02 2:43 PM
I got dollars to donuts that the autopsy results will never see the public light of day!
If the family does not request an autopsy of their own then, no, I do not believe it will ever be released. If the family does not order their own autopsy or does so and does not release the findings, I think that will say a lot about the situation without saying anything.
I hope for the sake of his fight with the BLM, they have the autopsy done and release it.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I saw the the fb post yesterday...idk. Here's a link...dang phones and internet are out...hard to post from my cell.LaVoy Finicum was shot 9 times, by Federal agents. A little excessive for an unarmed patriot! https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=917601441651402&id=52394... | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2016-02-02 4:55 PM I saw the the fb post yesterday...idk. Here's a link...dang phones and internet are out...hard to post from my cell.LaVoy Finicum was shot 9 times, by Federal agents. A little excessive for an unarmed patriot! https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=917601441651402&id=5...
it all depends what fb page your on.lol or site . so many conflicting stories | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-02 11:26 AM Please watch this. This will answere a lot of your questions Scott. http://www.blogtalkradio.com/theninjapastor/2016/01/30/first-hand-witness-to-the-murder-in-or-the-ninja-pastor-exclusive-interview
Please just listen to this. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened.
^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM
MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened.
^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet!
BINGO!!!!! | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM
NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM
MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened.
^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet!
BINGO!!!!!
Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-02-02 4:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet!
So so true! The one I posted I saw on a site that is at least somewhat trusted! But...who the heck knows. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | My husband is convinced this is the start of another civil war. The people of Burns have had it.They have sent a letter demanding the Feds leave. Lots of protesting at the court house. The local's are reporting being pulled out of vehicles at gun point and searched. Ranchers out feeding cows being held at gunpoint being searched. They are accusing the "FBI" of using U.N soldiers. A "Judge" has called for assistance from the US Military. His call is recorded and he also said on his call to the Military Finicum was shot 9 times. All of it is on this reporters FB page. I dont know but it looks like a line has been drawn in the sand. https://www.facebook.com/lee.rice2?pnref=story | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is some of the video that is slowed down, replayed...etc. It clearly shows Ryan Payne and Lavoy holding their hands out and Ryan jerking them back in which is exactly what Victoria and Shawna said...note that their stories match and was told before the video came out. There is no way they could have fabricated their stories to match this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2TVFYYLP0Q&sns=fb
I still think that they (fed) fully expected a 'shoot out' and when the shots were only 'one way' they got in a bind...and, it's now said that they may have quit shooting because of the jeep with the father and daughter that drove upon them. Is it possible that American Citizens would be killed to protect the faux-federal takeover of our country? Is it possible that the executive branch agencies who we've come to know as the 'federal government' is in no way associated with the United States of America? Don't be naive...don't be too paranoid, although, at this point I do wonder if there is such a thing as 'too paranoid'. Lavoy Finicum was a threat. A 'virus' in their words.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-03 7:23 AM My husband is convinced this is the start of another civil war. The people of Burns have had it.They have sent a letter demanding the Feds leave. Lots of protesting at the court house. The local's are reporting being pulled out of vehicles at gun point and searched. Ranchers out feeding cows being held at gunpoint being searched. They are accusing the "FBI" of using U.N soldiers. A "Judge" has called for assistance from the US Military. His call is recorded and he also said on his call to the Military Finicum was shot 9 times. All of it is on this reporters FB page. I dont know but it looks like a line has been drawn in the sand. https://www.facebook.com/lee.rice2?pnref=story
Exactly what the patriots were trying to avoid...they were determined to take our country back peacefully yet firmly. Very sad and scary. Is Burns under martial law of sorts? I've seen here and there that the phones are shut off, internet is turned off...the only communications being cell phones once in awhile...roadblocks...and now this.
I want to state right here: Please know that it's very unlikely that the majority of leo's would or could comprehend the enormity of this...it's almost impossible to wrap your mind around the possibilities, especially when your 'boss' is someone who you repect and have trusted. I don't think the sheriff had any idea it was this insidious, either...now it's too late. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I dont know what to think about all of this at this point. Scary times. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | I take this obit. to be factual. It is worth the read as it shows what his family thinks happened.
http://www.hughesmortuary.com/notices/Robert-Finicum | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM
jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM
NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM
MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened.
^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet!
BINGO!!!!!
Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....."
From Oregonlive:
The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy.
I wonder why they haven't released the details?
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
    Location: In The Land of Cotton | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details?
And, I wonder why you don't answer simple questions either?
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details?
Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint |
I don't know why but for some reason I would like to attend his funeral. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made. http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1 EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
Edited by NJJ 2016-02-03 10:07 AM
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | NJJ - 2016-02-03 9:35 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
There's no way I believe the ONLY video is the one released. There would've been others on the ground. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 9:23 AM
I don't know why but for some reason I would like to attend his funeral.
My husband and I said the same thing. If we were closer I would be going for sure, and I HATE funerals. I think it is because he died fighting for our way of life in the West and the battles we have watched our friends, neighbors and family lose time after time. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | MS2011 - 2016-02-03 8:36 AM NJJ - 2016-02-03 9:35 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
There's no way I believe the ONLY video is the one released. There would've been others on the ground.
I've been under the impression that the footage is from drones...I believe the fbi said they had 2 in the air. We have one, not a cheap one, it's somewhat noisy, I'd bet you could hear gunshots with it, though. The picture quality on ours is much better than what was released in these videos...which makes me wonder if they didn't 'fuzz' it up a bit? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | cyount2009 - 2016-02-03 8:51 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 9:23 AM I don't know why but for some reason I would like to attend his funeral. My husband and I said the same thing. If we were closer I would be going for sure, and I HATE funerals. I think it is because he died fighting for our way of life in the West and the battles we have watched our friends, neighbors and family lose time after time.
We'll probably go...we have a lot of friends in common, may have met Lavoy in passing, idk, but, I just want to be a body for support. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | NJJ - 2016-02-03 10:35 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
Actually, yes, I have flown in a helicopter a few times. Also, my husband was a crew chief for the medivac helicopters at Ft. Carson, CO when he was active military. So, while no expert, I do have basic knowledge of choppers. I agree that audio from the chopper would be inaudible - intentional or unintentional - maybe one day that will be answered. I do feel confident that the pilot had some type of verbal communication with someone while this was going on via radio or whatever the newest technology is . Then again based on the quality of the video the FBI released they may have been using soup cans with a hellva long string. The video that presented to the general public, by thre FBI was poor at best. Prehaps those fliming should be supplied decent cameras with zoom capability. If this is the only visual documentation of the event then it screams cover-up to me. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | musikmaker - 2016-02-03 9:52 AM MS2011 - 2016-02-03 8:36 AM NJJ - 2016-02-03 9:35 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
There's no way I believe the ONLY video is the one released. There would've been others on the ground. I've been under the impression that the footage is from drones...I believe the fbi said they had 2 in the air. We have one, not a cheap one, it's somewhat noisy, I'd bet you could hear gunshots with it, though.
The picture quality on ours is much better than what was released in these videos...which makes me wonder if they didn't 'fuzz' it up a bit?
My mistake....yes, it was by drone......I would guess that it would depend on what model etc as to whether you could hear gunshots or IF it recorded sound too ? | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | cruise - 2016-02-03 10:02 AM NJJ - 2016-02-03 10:35 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
Actually, yes, I have flown in a helicopter a few times. Also, my husband was a crew chief for the medivac helicopters at Ft. Carson, CO when he was active military. So, while no expert, I do have basic knowledge of choppers. I agree that audio from the chopper would be inaudible - intentional or unintentional - maybe one day that will be answered. I do feel confident that the pilot had some type of verbal communication with someone while this was going on via radio or whatever the newest technology is . Then again based on the quality of the video the FBI released they may have been using soup cans with a hellva long string. The video that presented to the general public, by thre FBI was poor at best. Prehaps those fliming should be supplied decent cameras with zoom capability. If this is the only visual documentation of the event then it screams cover-up to me.
My mistake....it was taken by drone..... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | With some of what's going on in with this I thought some of you might be interested in some videos from the Tenth Amendment Center that approach the issues of the federal gov't vs the states in a very clear and professional manner...! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqF4zyY2Kd8 | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | NJJ - 2016-02-03 11:04 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 10:02 AM NJJ - 2016-02-03 10:35 AM cruise - 2016-02-03 9:21 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:06 AM Bear - 2016-02-02 7:41 PM jbhoot - 2016-02-02 5:30 PM NJJ - 2016-02-02 5:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-02-02 3:59 PM I just really hope the family has an autopsy done and it's made public.....its the only way to know what happened. ^^^^ I agree......this thread is beginning to border on the ridiculous with links to this "expert", this "witness" or this "video", this "whatever.".........We all KNOW that if you hunt the internet long enough, you are going to find an article, report, supposed eye witness, expert, etc, etc that will bolster your position....and of course, everything you find MUST be true....it's on the internet! BINGO!!!!! Yep, " I heard he was shot 9 times and his casket will be closed....." From Oregonlive: The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member. The family hasn't released details from that autopsy. I wonder why they haven't released the details? Possibly they haven't released the results as the advice of their attorney, or prehaps they have been very sadden by his death and planning his funeral. I would think their knowledge of the autopsy results factors into the statements they made.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html#incart_maj-story-1
EXACTLY my point....yet another article that they "believe" this or they "believe" that....NO FACTS.....NONE.......they were NOT there nor were the majority of the people who are writing these articles.
Regarding the "sound" on the video....Have you ever been in a helicoptor....the only thing that you would BE hearing would be the LOUD roar of the blades.......
Actually, yes, I have flown in a helicopter a few times. Also, my husband was a crew chief for the medivac helicopters at Ft. Carson, CO when he was active military. So, while no expert, I do have basic knowledge of choppers. I agree that audio from the chopper would be inaudible - intentional or unintentional - maybe one day that will be answered. I do feel confident that the pilot had some type of verbal communication with someone while this was going on via radio or whatever the newest technology is . Then again based on the quality of the video the FBI released they may have been using soup cans with a hellva long string. The video that presented to the general public, by thre FBI was poor at best. Prehaps those fliming should be supplied decent cameras with zoom capability. If this is the only visual documentation of the event then it screams cover-up to me. My mistake....it was taken by drone.....
Who knows - which as I write this I realize validates your original statement - I have read it was shot from an airplane, helicopter and now drone. Whatever it was they need to upgrade. :) I live on the east coast - most of the people here have no idea about the Hammonds. Few are vaguely aware of the situation at the wildlife refuge. I find it sad that the media has cover this the way they have. I do not think it is being an alarmest to be deeply concerned about that happened on the remote road and to want facts - in the absence of facts - speculation takes over. I am guilty of this as are others - but I would rather see people care enough to speculate than to ignore the fact that it ever happened.. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | musikmaker - 2016-02-03 9:54 AM cyount2009 - 2016-02-03 8:51 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 9:23 AM I don't know why but for some reason I would like to attend his funeral. My husband and I said the same thing. If we were closer I would be going for sure, and I HATE funerals. I think it is because he died fighting for our way of life in the West and the battles we have watched our friends, neighbors and family lose time after time. We'll probably go...we have a lot of friends in common, may have met Lavoy in passing, idk, but, I just want to be a body for support.
If it was within driving distance - we'd absolutely go. There's too few people willing to stand by their values. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | The over reach of the government on ranchers is wide spread. It's not all about Oregon. Stockgrowers Question Federal Fire Double Standards Thursday, January 07, 2016/Categories: Popular Posts, General News, Today's Top 5, National News, Ag Issues The South Dakota Stockgrowers Association sent letters this week to congressional delegates, the U.S. Attorney General’s office and the South Dakota Attorney General’s office questioning what they call “egregiously unbalanced response of federal land management agencies” and supporting the claims South Dakota ranchers made for compensation after the 2013 Pautre Fire burned nearly 10,000 acres of federal and private land. “There is a big double standard being applied in these government land agencies,” said Stockgrowers President Bill Kluck. “We cannot support the use of terrorism laws against a family ranch while forest service staff are just allowed to go about their day. We’re not questioning who set these fires, but we’re very worried about how the law is being used.” The 2013 Pautre Fire in South Dakota burned over 10,000 acres, 3,000 of which was federally owned land and the rest was privately owned land. The U.S. Forest Service has refused to pay any damages and no employees have been charged with wrongdoing. Private landowners and ranchers affected by the blaze filed suit against the U.S. Forest Service last week after their claims for damage compensation were denied. The U.S. Forest Service ruled that the agency was not responsible for damages even though they intentionally set the fire, against recommendations from local ranchers and weather forecasters. In the letter, President of the Association, Bill Kluck stated, “The kind of unchecked decision-making authority and lack of accountability from federal land management agencies as seen in the Pautre Fire, can and will be applied to other situations and likely at the expense of independent livestock producers and private property owners.” SD Stockgrowers drew comparison to current satiation in Oregon where a father and son have been sentenced to 5 years in federal prison after a prescribed burn on their private property burned less than 140 acres of federal property. The family is required to pay $400,000 in damages and was prosecuted under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, which carries a minimum 5-year sentence. “SD Stockgrowers Association supports full compensation to the ranchers who were harmed by the Pautre Fire, and believe that liability should be applied to the U.S. Forest Service the way the Hammond’s were held liable for setting that fire.” “South Dakota Stockgrowers Association is very concerned about the lack of accountability and responsibility being applied to federal agencies in one case while private individuals are held to a much higher, and completely different level of responsibility in the other,” said Kluck. “We are asking that our congressional delegates, the South Dakota Attorney General and U.S. Attorney’s office take a look at these cases to see how we can correct this injustice to the Hammond family and use their case to make sure that our South Dakota ranchers are able to hold the Forest Service accountable and liable for their actions on the Pautre Fire.” Source: South Dakota Stockgrowers Association
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Lavoy Finicum, The FBI, and Why You’re Missing the PointHere is the link to the podcast it’s also available through any podcast app under “the unallowable opinion” http://theunallowableopinion.libsyn.com/lavoy-finicum-the-fbi-and-the-big-point-that-youre-missing And feel free to go over and like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TheUnallowableOpinion/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel Lavoy Finicum, The FBI, and Why You’re Missing the Point Throughout the past month we have heard news here and there about the “standoff” in Burns, Oregon. I’m not going to get into the specific reasons why the group was there, to sum it up, it was a protest against unconstitutional federal government power. As part of their protest, the group occupied an empty federal building and aired their grievances. This last week we all read and heard about the “shootout” between the FBI and a small group of the protestors. There are a couple of things we need to clarify about this confrontation. First off, it wasn’t a shootout. In order to have a shootout, you must have two parties shooting at each other. This wasn’t the case as the FBI gunned down a man in cold blooded murder. Secondly, the accounts from the FBI and from witnesses with Lavoy have extreme differences. For example, the FBI says they only fired three shots, but when Victoria Sharp an eighteen-year old girl who was a passenger in the vehicle heard that, she said, “Are you kidding? They shot maybe 120 times.” A video recently surfaced from the FBI that showed the encounter. Caleb and I break down the video in the Podcast so I won’t include that in here. I’ll just say one thing; the video quality is pitiful. It was shot from an FBI drone in the sky, there is no audio, you can’t see any detail, and the video is inconclusive to say the least. The FBI’s story is that Lavoy Finicum was reaching for a gun and that is why he was shot. All we have heard in the main stream media and on social media is whether or not the shooting was justified because he was going for a gun. We can argue that point all day, without getting anywhere because there is not “indisputable video evidence” for either side. The fact is, it doesn’t matter! While we bicker over whether or not the shooting was justified, we are all missing the bigger picture here. Why was there a roadblock set up in the first place? Why was there such a display of force for something that had been peaceful up to this point? When we contrast this protest with the riots in Ferguson or Baltimore, why were they handled so differently? The answer to all these questions are the same; the Federal Government was trying to send a message. This protest wasn’t minorities against white cops and police brutality. It was The People versus the Federal Government. This group was traveling to speak to a crowd in another city to spread their message of, abuse of government power. They were exercising their rights to free speech and to peaceably assemble. Last time I checked, those rights are still guaranteed by the constitution. Nonetheless, the FBI told them not to go, and when they decided to go anyway, there were roadblocks and armed federal agents to prevent them from getting there. The Federal Government’s message was loud and clear: “we are not afraid to kill those who stand up against our usurpation’s of power.” The FBI never intended for this to end peacefully or there wouldn’t have been a roadblock set up in the first place. Is it any coincidence that the only evidence we have of what actually happened is low quality video from a drone that poses more questions than it answers? Why is there not more media coverage on what happened? Can you imagine if this was a young black man shot by the cops? There would be riots in the streets, with 24/7 media coverage. There is no coverage however, because it does not fit the narrative of whites vs blacks. It doesn’t divide the people against each other. Instead, this is a story that should unite the people together to question the unconstitutional actions of our government. It is no accident that cops stood by and watched in Ferguson and Baltimore as rioters violently broke the law and destroyed property, but in this case they were quick to exercise extreme force and kill a man. Victor Hugo, author of the famous Les Miserables, once said “there is nothing as powerful as an idea whose time has come”. The Federal Government’s purpose in killing Lavoy Finicum, wasn’t to kill a man but rather to kill the idea that he represented. He was on his way to share that very idea with the group gathered in John Day, Oregon, and it is the idea I want to share with all of you. The Federal Government has destroyed the constitution and chains with which it was once bound, and the time is coming for the people to step up as the jealous guardians of our God-given rights guaranteed by the constitution. I firmly believe that the time is coming when this idea will come to fruition. The government is afraid of such an idea, and they should be. It is a powerful idea. It is an idea that the Federal Government does not want the American people to believe in. It is an idea worth killing over, and it is the idea we should all be talking about. If you are still arguing over whether or not he was going for a gun and should have been shot, you are still not getting it. Lavoy has been labeled a “traitor”, “terrorist” and “enemy of the state” because he stood up to the abuses of his government. With that logic I suppose we could call every founding father who signed the Declaration of Independence a traitor and a terrorist, who pledged their “lives”, their “fortunes”, and their “sacred honor” to these words in that declaration. “Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.” The founders understood that the constitution was just a piece of paper. It alone could not restrain the monster that is Federal Government. It is the “right” and the “duty” of the people to protect their rights against government. We are the only ones who can hold our government accountable. Samuel Adams once said, “No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders.” It is time for us to stop arguing about whether or not Finicum was going for a gun. That’s not the point. The point is, we are tamely surrendering our liberties in modern day America. Ignorance abounds, we are sinking under our own weight, and it is time for something to change. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
   Location: SE Louisiana | Nevertooold - 2016-02-03 12:11 PM Lavoy Finicum, The FBI, and Why You’re Missing the Point
Here is the link to the podcast it’s also available through any podcast app under “the unallowable opinion” http://theunallowableopinion.libsyn.com/lavoy-finicum-the-fbi-and-the-big-point-that-youre-missing And feel free to go over and like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/TheUnallowableOpinion/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel
Lavoy Finicum, The FBI, and Why You’re Missing the Point
Throughout the past month we have heard news here and there about the “standoff” in Burns, Oregon. I’m not going to get into the specific reasons why the group was there, to sum it up, it was a protest against unconstitutional federal government power. As part of their protest, the group occupied an empty federal building and aired their grievances. This last week we all read and heard about the “shootout” between the FBI and a small group of the protestors. There are a couple of things we need to clarify about this confrontation. First off, it wasn’t a shootout. In order to have a shootout, you must have two parties shooting at each other. This wasn’t the case as the FBI gunned down a man in cold blooded murder. Secondly, the accounts from the FBI and from witnesses with Lavoy have extreme differences. For example, the FBI says they only fired three shots, but when Victoria Sharp an eighteen-year old girl who was a passenger in the vehicle heard that, she said, “Are you kidding? They shot maybe 120 times.”
A video recently surfaced from the FBI that showed the encounter. Caleb and I break down the video in the Podcast so I won’t include that in here. I’ll just say one thing; the video quality is pitiful. It was shot from an FBI drone in the sky, there is no audio, you can’t see any detail, and the video is inconclusive to say the least. The FBI’s story is that Lavoy Finicum was reaching for a gun and that is why he was shot. All we have heard in the main stream media and on social media is whether or not the shooting was justified because he was going for a gun. We can argue that point all day, without getting anywhere because there is not “indisputable video evidence” for either side. The fact is, it doesn’t matter! While we bicker over whether or not the shooting was justified, we are all missing the bigger picture here.
Why was there a roadblock set up in the first place? Why was there such a display of force for something that had been peaceful up to this point? When we contrast this protest with the riots in Ferguson or Baltimore, why were they handled so differently? The answer to all these questions are the same; the Federal Government was trying to send a message. This protest wasn’t minorities against white cops and police brutality. It was The People versus the Federal Government. This group was traveling to speak to a crowd in another city to spread their message of, abuse of government power. They were exercising their rights to free speech and to peaceably assemble. Last time I checked, those rights are still guaranteed by the constitution. Nonetheless, the FBI told them not to go, and when they decided to go anyway, there were roadblocks and armed federal agents to prevent them from getting there.
The Federal Government’s message was loud and clear: “we are not afraid to kill those who stand up against our usurpation’s of power.” The FBI never intended for this to end peacefully or there wouldn’t have been a roadblock set up in the first place. Is it any coincidence that the only evidence we have of what actually happened is low quality video from a drone that poses more questions than it answers? Why is there not more media coverage on what happened? Can you imagine if this was a young black man shot by the cops? There would be riots in the streets, with 24/7 media coverage. There is no coverage however, because it does not fit the narrative of whites vs blacks. It doesn’t divide the people against each other. Instead, this is a story that should unite the people together to question the unconstitutional actions of our government.
It is no accident that cops stood by and watched in Ferguson and Baltimore as rioters violently broke the law and destroyed property, but in this case they were quick to exercise extreme force and kill a man. Victor Hugo, author of the famous Les Miserables, once said “there is nothing as powerful as an idea whose time has come”. The Federal Government’s purpose in killing Lavoy Finicum, wasn’t to kill a man but rather to kill the idea that he represented. He was on his way to share that very idea with the group gathered in John Day, Oregon, and it is the idea I want to share with all of you. The Federal Government has destroyed the constitution and chains with which it was once bound, and the time is coming for the people to step up as the jealous guardians of our God-given rights guaranteed by the constitution. I firmly believe that the time is coming when this idea will come to fruition. The government is afraid of such an idea, and they should be. It is a powerful idea. It is an idea that the Federal Government does not want the American people to believe in. It is an idea worth killing over, and it is the idea we should all be talking about.
If you are still arguing over whether or not he was going for a gun and should have been shot, you are still not getting it. Lavoy has been labeled a “traitor”, “terrorist” and “enemy of the state” because he stood up to the abuses of his government. With that logic I suppose we could call every founding father who signed the Declaration of Independence a traitor and a terrorist, who pledged their “lives”, their “fortunes”, and their “sacred honor” to these words in that declaration.
“Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
The founders understood that the constitution was just a piece of paper. It alone could not restrain the monster that is Federal Government. It is the “right” and the “duty” of the people to protect their rights against government. We are the only ones who can hold our government accountable. Samuel Adams once said,
“No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders.”
It is time for us to stop arguing about whether or not Finicum was going for a gun. That’s not the point. The point is, we are tamely surrendering our liberties in modern day America. Ignorance abounds, we are sinking under our own weight, and it is time for something to change.
I've heard of something like this happening before... It was in a movie called Mississippi Burning. Guess the FBI took notes when they investigated those killings then found ways to improve the crime. These people can afford drones but not body cams? | |
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   Location: In my own little world | Does anyone know how many cattle Finecum had? | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | With NeverTooOld's post I want to post two links to a great patriots youtube videos that I have watched multiple times in the last four weeks. They are invaluable for all of us who are ignorant of the constitution and where it came from. She is a constitutional attorney, teacher. She went to Burns to speak with the townspeople and the group at the refuge. EVERY citizen should know this BEFORE you make assumptions about LaVoy Finicum.
This one first explains the content of the constitution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE
When that one gets you excited then watch where the constitution came from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2POwIwA8E
Edited by OregonBR 2016-02-03 6:54 PM
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     Location: Not Where I Want to Be | ropenrun - 2016-02-03 2:38 PM Does anyone know how many cattle Finecum had?
you looking to buy cheap?
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | OregonBR - 2016-02-03 1:06 PM With NeverTooOld's post I want to post two links to a great patriots youtube videos that I have watched multiple times in the last four weeks. They are invaluable for all of us how are ignorant of the constitution and where it came from. She is a constitutional attorney, teacher. She went to Burns to speak with the townspeople and the group at the refuge. EVERY citizen should know this BEFORE you make assumptions about LaVoy Finicum. This one first explains the content of the constitution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE When that one gets you excited then watch where the constitution came from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2POwIwA8E
I love KrisAnne Hall! She gets it said in such an engaging manner...and she's right. She says everything I only try to say! Here's a vid of an interview with her and the intervieweer adds a lot to the conversation...watch to the end because it has twists & turns that ae interesting & educational: http://www.jasonstapleton.com/beyond-the-sound-bite-krisanne-hall/
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | musikmaker - 2016-02-03 2:29 PM
OregonBR - 2016-02-03 1:06 PM With NeverTooOld's post I want to post two links to a great patriots youtube videos that I have watched multiple times in the last four weeks. They are invaluable for all of us how are ignorant of the constitution and where it came from. She is a constitutional attorney, teacher. She went to Burns to speak with the townspeople and the group at the refuge. EVERY citizen should know this BEFORE you make assumptions about LaVoy Finicum. This one first explains the content of the constitution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE When that one gets you excited then watch where the constitution came from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2POwIwA8E
I love KrisAnne Hall! She gets it said in such an engaging manner...and she's right. She says everything I only try to say! Here's a vid of an interview with her and the intervieweer adds a lot to the conversation...watch to the end because it has twists & turns that ae interesting & educational: http://www.jasonstapleton.com/beyond-the-sound-bite-krisanne-hall/
Just finished watching. It was SUPER! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought! | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | foundation horse - 2016-02-03 7:31 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM From. Www.ranchworldads.com A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad: Company Overview The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses. Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver. If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities. Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them. Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought!
Because Finney scours the world wide web for Liberal opinion pieces that fit her narrative.
In this case she continues to make no sense. I'm still trying to figure out her point. Other than turning things around to blame rich Conservatives. Typical Liberal move. Trying to justify the Feds taking land from law abiding ranchers. She really needs to go back to her history books, for once use google for good and do research on the Revolutionary War. Not the Liberalized versions that leave out key events.
But that is asking a lot. May she just needs to stick to watching Rachel Madcow and feeling good about herself. | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | I can play the cut and paste game too....
Justifying the Revolution When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. (Declaration, page 1, lines 1-6).Our founding fathers did not begin the American revolution with bombs or bullets. They began with words. Waging a war against a more established and experienced military is not a decision most will take lightly. People aren't willing to give their only life for a frivolous cause. When drafting the Declaration, Jefferson didn't try to re-invent the wheel; most of our founders political philosophy came directly from “conversation, in letters, printed essays, or in the elementary books of public right, as Aristotle, Cicero, Locke, Sidney, etc.” (Letter, pg 12, lines 1-2). The foundation was set, someone just had to put things in clear enough terms for people to get mad enough to do something about it. John Locke describes in “Politics” some examples in which citizens are justified to revolt: First, when the government (whether King or Legislature,) creates laws which invade the lives, liberties and / or properties of the citizens. Locke also asserts that government acts contrary to the trust of the public when it: ...employs the force, treasure, and offices of the society, to corrupt the representatives, and gain them to his purposes; or openly pre-engages the electors, and prescribes to their choice, such, whom he has, by solicitations, threats, promised, or otherwise, won to his designs: and employs them to bring in such, who have promised beforehand, what to vote, and what to enact. (Locke, pg 40, lines 28-32.) The main function of government is to protect life, liberty, and property. When the government acts contrary to those functions, according to Locke, they “put themselves into a state of war with the people, who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience...,” (Locke, pg. 40, lines 14-15). At this point, “it devolves to the people, who have a right to resume their original liberty, and, by the establishment of a new legislative, (such as they shall think fit) provide for their own safety and security, which is the end for which they are in society.” (Locke, pg 40, lines 20-23.) Locke is asserting here that our right to revolt and replace the corrupt legislators is inherent in the relationship between the elected and the citizens. One of the arguments against this premise of allowing citizens to revolt and institute new rulers “as they see fit” is that it may allow the constant overthrow of government at any minor transgression, leading to perpetual instability and conflict. Locke counters this assertion by stating “People are not so easily got out of their old forms as some are apt to suggest. They are hardly to be prevailed with to amend the acknowledged faults in the frame they have been accustomed to.” (Locke, pg. 40, lines 37-39, page 41, line 1). Put simple, Locke is stating that most people will tolerate the status quo, and are only compelled to take action when the transgressions become so great, and so obvious to everyone, they cannot be ignored. Locke also maintains that, when the public is always willing to assert its inherent right to revolt, this will act as a “check” to whatever government is currently in power. In theory, at least. Upon reviewing the Declaration of Independence, one can draw parallels between the older writings of Locke, and the main author of the Declaration, Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson begins by laying a foundation, rooted in the wisdom of Locke, in order to convince citizens that we need to take action. For what is the purpose of the Declaration of Independence if the masses are not willing to give it teeth? People need to be convinced to stand up and openly rebel against an oppressor, especially in the face of grave danger. Any attempted justification would clearly have to be compelling, our founding fathers must have known Britain wouldn't give up these great lands without a fight. Enormous amounts of blood would have to be shed in order for this to work. So much was at stake with this document, if it failed, so conceivably would our American experiment. After the introduction, Jefferson is ruthless in describing Britain's transgressions against us: The King's refusal to allow us to govern as we see fit, the King dissolving any legislatures we create, his stationing large numbers of troops among us, his calling of legislative meetings impractically far away, his depriving citizens of the right to fair trials, taxation without consent, inciting warfare among and against the Citizens, etc. (Declaration, pages 6-8). The list goes on and on. Towards the end of the Declaration, Jefferson states: In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.” (Declaration, page 8, lines 7-11). Jefferson justifies action by drawing from the words of Locke. The issues he wrote about were grave transgressions of power, which had been going on for a long time. They are not frivolous, spur of the moment issues. We could not live in this fashion, and action had to be taken. We petitioned the King numerous times with no positive results, only continued oppression. Therefore, the only thing we could do is dissolve the bonds between the British and our Independent States, in order to shake off the chains of oppression which bound us to the King and his continued injustice. The Declaration ends with representatives of the 13 colonies “mutually pledg(ing) to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.” (Declaration, page 8, lines 33-34). - unknown | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | musikmaker - 2016-02-03 9:54 AM
cyount2009 - 2016-02-03 8:51 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 9:23 AM I don't know why but for some reason I would like to attend his funeral. My husband and I said the same thing. If we were closer I would be going for sure, and I HATE funerals. I think it is because he died fighting for our way of life in the West and the battles we have watched our friends, neighbors and family lose time after time.
We'll probably go...we have a lot of friends in common, may have met Lavoy in passing, idk, but, I just want to be a body for support.
When is the funeral? | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| foundation horse - 2016-02-03 8:31 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought!
The first part come from the Koch Industry's web site word for word. of course she left out the remaining part that states all the awards for stewardship of the land that the Matador cattle company has received. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | jbhoot - 2016-02-03 9:15 PM
foundation horse - 2016-02-03 8:31 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought!
The first part come from the Koch Industry's web site word for word. of course she left out the remaining part that states all the awards for stewardship of the land that the Matador cattle company has received.
Of course she did. She only posted what little part would fit her communist anti capitalistic narrative!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| jbhoot - 2016-02-03 9:15 PM
foundation horse - 2016-02-03 8:31 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought!
The first part come from the Koch Industry's web site word for word. of course she left out the remaining part that states all the awards for stewardship of the land that the Matador cattle company has received.
As usual, you miss the point. I said this was an excerpt from an ad posted on www.ranchworldads.com for employment. I included the part about the property to emphasize what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land.
Quoting all of their "good works" does not take away the fact that one family controls land that numerous families used to make a living on.
If you choose to be willfully ignorant to the consequences of privatization, so be it.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:25 PM
jbhoot - 2016-02-03 9:15 PM
foundation horse - 2016-02-03 8:31 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought!
The first part come from the Koch Industry's web site word for word. of course she left out the remaining part that states all the awards for stewardship of the land that the Matador cattle company has received.
As usual, you miss the point. I said this was an excerpt from an ad posted on www.ranchworldads.com for employment. I included the part about the property to emphasize what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land.
Quoting all of their "good works" does not take away the fact that one family controls land that numerous families used to make a living on.
If you choose to be willfully ignorant to the consequences of privatization, so be it.
Was this Country not founded upon "Private" Rights? The Right to own Property? Which is what The Koch Brothers have done?
Finney, You don't understand American History, do you? By comment(s) you cannot even begin to fathom American struggles in regards to a Rogue Government! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................ | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:25 PM
jbhoot - 2016-02-03 9:15 PM
foundation horse - 2016-02-03 8:31 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
Where did you C&P this piece from Finney? Because to date, I have not read one post of yours that was an original thought!
The first part come from the Koch Industry's web site word for word. of course she left out the remaining part that states all the awards for stewardship of the land that the Matador cattle company has received.
As usual, you miss the point. I said this was an excerpt from an ad posted on www.ranchworldads.com for employment. I included the part about the property to emphasize what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land.
Quoting all of their "good works" does not take away the fact that one family controls land that numerous families used to make a living on.
If you choose to be willfully ignorant to the consequences of privatization, so be it.
Finney You are the one who is willfully being ignorant. You really need to do your research on the Matador and the other two ranches that make up the matador cattle company. Because frankly you do not have a clue what you are talking about. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM
Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................
And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers.
My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers.
You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money.
You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar?
So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM
Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................
FH, I have to disagree with you here. It sounds to me like she has been overeducated to the point where common sense and thinking for oneself have left the building. One just needs to take a look at the rarified environment at GOVERNEMENT CONTROLLED Universities and colleges, which is most of them. They cannot sustain without government money, so the Liberal, Socialist agenda is pushed into malleable young minds who have been brainwashed and conditioned in our now Federal controlled public schools. (I have a niece who home schooled her daughter when she found out that they were teaching that the Constitution had no real bearing in today's world).
I remember we had a hippie type English teacher, who I really did like, who tried to push the socialist, peace not war, everybody is the same mentality. I thank the Lord that I chose to think for myself and not follow her or other like minded teachers down that rosy path to dronehood. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:07 PM foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................ And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers. My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers. You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money. You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar? So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me.
Who do you think Ted Turner bought off with that? I want to point out that way back...if you look to the Constitution...you will find a little 'clause' that prohibts 'monopolies'...guess what? It's no longer in effect. You will note that the Nature Conservancy has a 'monopoly'. You will note that 'other' big money a**holes have 'monopolies'. Including those you mentioned and one you didn't...the federal government. There was a time when land out west was retracted from those who would play that game...most of us on here want to re-instate the rule of law...don't be hating on those who have the drive, the ingenuity...do be hating on those who buy off politicians. That we can all agree with, I think.
The Bundy's...they have a valid complaint. Stop the hate and open the mind. They aren't the enemy. I've met so many people who have some sort of 'entitlment' attitude and that is exactly how you sound...filled with hate, dispair and resentment for those who have more than you...therefore, you support a government who would take from those that do and give to those who didn't. Who the he** cares???? I don't have it all...never will...don't care. Sure, let's do away with the producer...where does that leave humanity? You sound like a bernie supporter...socialism doesn't work...you will never get what you didn't work for and the way it's looking you might not get what you did work for. Educate yourself! Throw away everything you thought you knew...open your mind to possibilities...just pretend for a moment that you've been lied to...imagine....that we aren't all wrong.
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl! | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | Chandler's Mom - 2016-02-03 8:55 PM musikmaker - 2016-02-03 9:54 AM cyount2009 - 2016-02-03 8:51 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 9:23 AM I don't know why but for some reason I would like to attend his funeral. My husband and I said the same thing. If we were closer I would be going for sure, and I HATE funerals. I think it is because he died fighting for our way of life in the West and the battles we have watched our friends, neighbors and family lose time after time. We'll probably go...we have a lot of friends in common, may have met Lavoy in passing, idk, but, I just want to be a body for support. When is the funeral?
Friday afternoon | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 9:40 PM A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl!
Seriously???? There's a whole lot wrong with that. Especially coming from a judge that I'm sure isn't even a part of our system. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I think I've read them all. This one? I think it 'nails it'. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:07 PM
foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM
Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................
And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers.
My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers.
You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money.
You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar?
So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me.
What's the matter Finney? You can't stand an individual who understands The Constitution? And now 'Big Government' is NOT the answer? And I stand corrected by Rodeo Veteran. You are Over Educated to point of being indoctrinated into Socialism/Communism! | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 10:40 PM A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl!
On what grounds? | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | musikmaker - 2016-02-03 10:36 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:07 PM foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................ And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers. My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers. You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money. You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar? So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me. Who do you think Ted Turner bought off with that?
I want to point out that way back...if you look to the Constitution...you will find a little 'clause' that prohibts 'monopolies'...guess what? It's no longer in effect. You will note that the Nature Conservancy has a 'monopoly'. You will note that 'other' big money a**holes have 'monopolies'. Including those you mentioned and one you didn't...the federal government.
There was a time when land out west was retracted from those who would play that game...most of us on here want to re-instate the rule of law...don't be hating on those who have the drive, the ingenuity...do be hating on those who buy off politicians. That we can all agree with, I think.
The Bundy's...they have a valid complaint. Stop the hate and open the mind. They aren't the enemy.
I've met so many people who have some sort of 'entitlment' attitude and that is exactly how you sound...filled with hate, dispair and resentment for those who have more than you...therefore, you support a government who would take from those that do and give to those who didn't. Who the he** cares????
I don't have it all...never will...don't care.
Sure, let's do away with the producer...where does that leave humanity?
You sound like a bernie supporter...socialism doesn't work...you will never get what you didn't work for and the way it's looking you might not get what you did work for.
Educate yourself! Throw away everything you thought you knew...open your mind to possibilities...just pretend for a moment that you've been lied to...imagine....that we aren't all wrong.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I am Lavoy Finicum. A tribute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQw8y0nECeM&feature=youtu.be | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | MS2011 - 2016-02-04 7:19 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 10:40 PM A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl! On what grounds?
That's brutal...especially considering her son-in-law was killed in a fire the same night. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
    Location: Midwest | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:07 PM foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................ And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers. My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers. You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money. You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar? So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me.
Ted Turner didn't murder anyone. He bought the land from those people. They willingly sold it. You can lay off the hyperbole.
This movement is about returning federal land to local, state gov control. This movement is about how these people feel the federal government has violated the constitution, and treated people unfairly.
You talk about the government as if it's a building, walking around and doing stuff. Guess what, the government is PEOPLE. Those people are just as good or evil as anyone else, but with much more power and resources. The constitution was created to protect citizens. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | We already fought a war over "state's rights" 150 years ago. Let's not go down that road again. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-02-04 8:45 AM
We already fought a war over "state's rights" 150 years ago. Let's not go down that road again.
What about the Tenth Amendment and the abuses (currently) by The Federal Government? Maybe History is repeating itself........................Remember those who fail to understand History are doomed to repeat it. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
      
| FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM
From. Www.ranchworldads.com
A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad:
Company Overview
The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses.
Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver.
If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities.
Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them.
I am not arguing about the loss of jobs from the individual ranches being dissolved but isn't that also due to the choice of the individual ranchers who chose to sell to Ted Turner?? Why blame him???
Big government and big money are one and the same.
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | MS2011 - 2016-02-04 8:19 AM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 10:40 PM A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl!
On what grounds?
I don't know the grounds. It was mentioned on our local news here in Utah last night. Probably trying to keep the hostility down. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | rodeomom3 - 2016-02-04 9:17 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM From. Www.ranchworldads.com A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad: Company Overview The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses. Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver. If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities. Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them. I am not arguing about the loss of jobs from the individual ranches being dissolved but isn't that also due to the choice of the individual ranchers who chose to sell to Ted Turner?? Why blame him??? Big government and big money are one and the same.
I don't understand how CHOOSING to sell to Ted Turner can be compared to land grabs by the gov? It would be like a pro girl selling her rodeo horse (which you can price them however you like) and then crying that she couldn't make a living rodeoing anymore...... If I have something someone else wants, I can price it as high as I want - if they want it badly enough - they'll pay it. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| rodeomom3 - 2016-02-04 9:17 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 8:28 PM From. Www.ranchworldads.com A new ad for ranch help was posted today on this website. They are looking for a cowboy/cowgirl II at their ranch in Dillon, MT. Here is part of the ad: Company Overview The Matador Cattle Company operates three ranches: Beaverhead in Montana, Matador in Texas and Spring Creek in Kansas. The ranches were acquired between 1941 and 1952 by Fred C. Koch, co-founder of what is now Koch Industries. Today, the ranches total more than 460,000 acres of owned or leased land. The ranches wean about 9,500 calves annually and support more than 12,000 cattle. Safety programs held at The Matador Cattle Company’s Montana, Kansas and Texas ranches include horsemanship clinics that focus on riders and horses. Beaverhead covers approximately 345,000 acres in Southwest Montana. It stretches along a 90-mile road from Dillon to the Idaho border then east to Yellowstone Park. It is home to nearly 7,000 cow/calf pairs but also bald eagle, elk, and beaver. If the Federal Government would give American Citizens' land back to the states, the Kochs' and the Ted Turners of the world would own everything, and the ranchers with no leases at all would be their hired hands. When Turner bought thousands of acres in Nebraska, he tore out the interior fences, ran buffalo, and many families lost their jobs they had held with the individual ranches for years and had to relocate to other communities. Make no mistake, this is what you are advocating for, so don't kid yourself that there will be a fairytale ending to privatization of public land. And the politicians, and militiamen, and the Bundys of the world promising ranchers that they will miraculously be given free land and grazing that is rightfully theirs anyway will be laughing all the way to the bank with the donations from the poor suckers who blindly believe these hucksters with an agenda. Martyr old Finicum and idolize the felons running around playing soldier, but know that it is people like you who are responsible for the disgust and contempt that the majority of Americans are now feeling towards what they perceive as "ranchers". It makes me sad that so many hardworking real ranchers are compared to the likes of them. I am not arguing about the loss of jobs from the individual ranches being dissolved but isn't that also due to the choice of the individual ranchers who chose to sell to Ted Turner?? Why blame him??? Big government and big money are one and the same.
Do you see that last word in the highlighted area there? Furthermore someone had to sell out to them. They didn't just aquire that land in 40s and 50s wihtout buying somebody out. | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-04 9:27 AM MS2011 - 2016-02-04 8:19 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 10:40 PM A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl! On what grounds?
I don't know the grounds. It was mentioned on our local news here in Utah last night. Probably trying to keep the hostility down.
Could you post a link for us? That is insane. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| MS2011 - 2016-02-04 9:28 AM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-04 9:27 AM MS2011 - 2016-02-04 8:19 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-03 10:40 PM A Judge has ruled that the Cox lady can't attend Lavoy Finicum's funerl! On what grounds?
I don't know the grounds. It was mentioned on our local news here in Utah last night. Probably trying to keep the hostility down.
Could you post a link for us? That is insane.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3497731-155/oregon-standoff-leader-ammon... | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | I'm going to have to research this some more....but here's a video of Cruz discussing returning the land to the states.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzjE2OrM5MI&feature=youtu.be
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:07 PM foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................ And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers. My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers. You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money. You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar? So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me.
So you admit to being "anti-capitalist"? What about your love of The OKC Thunder Basketball Team? Are they 'capitalist'? You brought up me being a hypocrite, usually when one tosses out a label like that, said invariably speaks from experience. Also, You are quite condescending in regards to insinuating the rest of the people on this board are 'silly little boys and girls". I believe there are many intelligent people in this group who can and do think for themselves. | |
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 No Tune in a Bucket
Posts: 2935
       Location: Texas | | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Since the Bundy Standoff these Patriots have been referred to as 'anti-government terrorists'. That is the 1st bit of propaganda that needs correcting. The blm, atf, fbi...are not valid branches of our structured government...they are akin to Al Capone's 'army', therefore, being 'anti' department of interior is not anti-government. The People are the government! It's high time we realize it. The fbi...federal bureau of investigation...created to investigate the federal government. Which is exactly what Ammon Bundy demanded they do prior to and during the legal occupation...investigate. The fbi is an internal bureau just like all the others within and under the complete control of the executive branch...not at all what our framers had in mind! And we the people do have tools to return the balance of power where it belongs, then a group who is doing exactly that is targeted and murdered...hmmm...it's not that hard to figure out. The question is, will we stand behind them or cower? I'm of the mind that the main stream media are scared to death of this...and they should be. Nobody wants a civil war...nobody. Our nation can be returned to greatness without bloodshed...as KrisAnne Hall says, "We need a revolution of the mind". We get there through education...understanding and asserting our rights...it requires our local elected officials on up...starting with the sheriff. There are many who are working on this...all is not lost! I know most of us grasp this and I'm not saying anything we don't already know...I just want to reiterate in hopes that we stay the course and help to make a difference, share the info, teach your children the things they won't learn in school, pray...and know that all the socialists I've ever met have resentful hearts...pray for them, too. This is just a recap on Newsmax...I know we're all emotionally worn from seeing a good man killed over and over...I try to think of it as his gift to America...and it's now our duty to carry his message forward. https://www.facebook.com/DMLdaily/videos/1111323878907068/?fref=nf
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | I realize there are people out there who won't believe a word of this because their heads are buried do deep in the sand that they only believe what the government tells them - those who lack common sense. No matter how much this statement from an eye witness makes sense. I found it interesting that the only footage the Feds released was a soundless, grainy video from above. In an attempt to appease the masses, because they think we are stupid. I won't be satisfied until I see the dashcam with sound, pictures of the truck before they crush it, and an autopsy report. I'm actually surprised the witnesses that were in the truck are still alive. That they didn't get in an "accident" on the way to jail.
In Obama's America, the little people are stupid and believe everything they see on "official" video. Especially when they hear commentary from a Fed to explain what is going on in said video.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B__um65-yUXEREdGS1llOGFfSGs/view?pref=2&pli=1 | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
      
| foundation horse - 2016-02-04 9:38 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 10:07 PM foundation horse - 2016-02-03 9:33 PM Finney, You impress me as a whiney, undereducated, jealous person who has the idea Government is supposed to right all wrongs........................................ And you don't impress me with your twisted logic to "protect the ranchers from the big, bad government" on one hand while advocating for privatization that would destroy those very same ranchers. My late brother-in-law in western Montana ranched next to privatized land purchased by Ted Turner. His purchase of an enormous tract of land displaced 17 ranchers. You howl for the love of it, not because you give a hoot about the ranch families, so don't pretend you do. Otherwise you wouldn't stomp and shout about the government taking their land but not the capitalistic billionaires who never have enough land or money. You and your kind are hypocrites, looking for a reason to spew your anti-government rhetoric, and you found just the right target in an economically depressed community filled with people looking for a miracle. So don't pretend you care about those ranchers, because if that 40% of the workforce that keeps Harney County hanging on is gone, that community is done. Your hatred has twisted you so that can't even comprehend or understand that leaders in your movement are already touting how much money they could make with all those resources. And maybe you need to revisit your history lessons if you have forgotten the bloody mess that was the cattle baron wars, where small ranchers were murdered and driven off their land by wealthy capitalists who purchased the lawmakers. Sound familiar? So you can fool all the silly little girls and boys reading your garbled logic that you are a warrior for the ranchers, but you don't fool me. So you admit to being "anti-capitalist"? What about your love of The OKC Thunder Basketball Team? Are they 'capitalist'? You brought up me being a hypocrite, usually when one tosses out a label like that, said invariably speaks from experience. Also, You are quite condescending in regards to insinuating the rest of the people on this board are 'silly little boys and girls". I believe there are many intelligent people in this group who can and do think for themselves.
Finney is a capitalist, just on a different scale as the big dogs. I am sure she retains her profits from sells of her horses etc. When she voluntarily shares/gives her land and profits away, she will no longer be a capitalist. What Finney doesn't seem to get is that her advocating for big government control is the same thing as advocating for the "greedy capitalists" and capitalism that she seems to hate-even though this is the same system, ills and all, that allows for her way of life, allows for her to make choices, allows for individual freedoms. I have no resentment for those who have found huge wealth. I don't want anyone telling me how much land I can own. I like states rights to chose for themselves. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | The below text in red was copied from an article shared on the first page of this thread. To me this and the fact that the Hammonds had to sign a legal document giving the BLM firt right of refusal for their ranch shows the Hammond Ranch is hindering the federal government from securing their farm as part of the Malheur Refuge. A refuge that was ordered by Roosevelt and started as 87,000 something acreas and has know grown to over 187,000 acres. It was started to protect birds from plum hunters that were harvesting plums from the birds of that area for womens hats. This has been a refuge for the birds since 1908 - was 87,000 not enough to insure the birds had a refuge? The federal government wants the Hammond Ranch - pure and simple. If this was something new I think peoples point of view may be different. Clearly the federal goverment has taken to amassing large amounts of land - reseach how much they own in states like Nevads and sorrounding states. It has been documented time after time where the government uses tactics to pressure people for land. The same government that was founded to be of the people, for the people and by the people. The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. While the Hammonds have distanced themselves from the takeover and the Bundy's it was the very act of putting the Hammonds back in jail and requiring them to pay the BLM 400,000 for damage to federal land that caused the takeover of the refuge. Lock up two of the Hammond family reducing the workfoce and income - hit them with a hefty fine with a short deadline to pay - and have a docement signed that you have first right of refusal. Is this the way citizens who provide for this country's need as to be treated? LaVoy, the Bundy's, the Hammonds and others live this day in and day out. This is why what really happened to LaVoy Finecum matters. What is to stop it from happening to anyone when government overreaches bounds?
Edited by cruise 2016-02-04 11:07 AM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | MS2011 - 2016-02-04 8:31 AM I'm going to have to research this some more....but here's a video of Cruz discussing returning the land to the states. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzjE2OrM5MI&feature=youtu.be[/qu...
Cruz's stance on the public lands is why he lost my vote! He continued on to say that the federal gov't shouldn't own more than 50% of any state! Hellloooo...the fed shouldn't own ANY of it not specified in Art.1, s 8, c 17...including parks and monuments. Did you know that the only National Park that the United States actually, legally, owns is Yellowstone? Wyoming ceded the land which is a requirement. No other state has done so and I fervently hope they do not. It justifies the creation of a bureaucracy that is not constitutional...they do not need that 'toe hold' in any state. Central Park in NYC isn't 'owned' by the fed...why should any other park be owned by an outside organization? We can still have our parks...they'll just be state parks. We already have state parks...they work! They make money! And the states need the resources to keep it all working without begging for PILT funding. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
     Location: Windoming | Yep, the government owns more land in Wyoming than private landowners. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | E.T. Williams... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fff_NFMb9zs&feature=youtube_gdata_player | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Wow...a 'shot by shot' look at the murder...and an agent flipping Lavoy off as he died???? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG3O5wA4o7g&sns=fb | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | cruise - 2016-02-04 8:47 AM
The below text in red was copied from an article shared on the first page of this thread. To me this and the fact that the Hammonds had to sign a legal document giving the BLM firt right of refusal for their ranch shows the Hammond Ranch is hindering the federal government from securing their farm as part of the Malheur Refuge. A refuge that was ordered by Roosevelt and started as 87,000 something acreas and has know grown to over 187,000 acres. It was started to protect birds from plum hunters that were harvesting plums from the birds of that area for womens hats. This has been a refuge for the birds since 1908 - was 87,000 not enough to insure the birds had a refuge? The federal government wants the Hammond Ranch - pure and simple. If this was something new I think peoples point of view may be different. Clearly the federal goverment has taken to amassing large amounts of land - reseach how much they own in states like Nevads and sorrounding states. It has been documented time after time where the government uses tactics to pressure people for land. The same government that was founded to be of the people, for the people and by the people. The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. While the Hammonds have distanced themselves from the takeover and the Bundy's it was the very act of putting the Hammonds back in jail and requiring them to pay the BLM 400,000 for damage to federal land that caused the takeover of the refuge. Lock up two of the Hammond family reducing the workfoce and income - hit them with a hefty fine with a short deadline to pay - and have a docement signed that you have first right of refusal. Is this the way citizens who provide for this country's need as to be treated? LaVoy, the Bundy's, the Hammonds and others live this day in and day out. This is why what really happened to LaVoy Finecum matters. What is to stop it from happening to anyone when government overreaches bounds?
It's not about birds. It's about minerals. http://farmwars.info/?p=14391
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
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I am not buying the whole gun in the pocket thing. I haven't from the beginning. First off, why would you put a gun in that inside pocket any way? It's barely big enough to hold a snuff can. | |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:25 PM As usual, you miss the point. I said this was an excerpt from an ad posted on www.ranchworldads.com for employment. I included the part about the property to emphasize what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land. Quoting all of their "good works" does not take away the fact that one family controls land that numerous families used to make a living on. If you choose to be willfully ignorant to the consequences of privatization, so be it.
I wouldn't exactly consider the Matador Ranch as the best example to prove that point, especially when you look at the history of how it evolved in Texas. That ranch has always belonged to a select few people from the original land purchase and because of their actions, people came to work there and settle the land because of the ranch. They didn't come in and take things away from "families who used to make a living on" the land -- they always owned the operation in that manner. It's not much different from the other big ranches in that part of Texas who have been run in the same manner for generations and owned by families who practically made that part of the state what it is. If not for the ranches, there wouldn't be much of anything -- schools, businesses, and employers -- in those areas because they are so remote. So if you want to talk about what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land = in that part of the world it means people living there could establish communities, churches and schools because of what the ranches brought in and provided for them in that area. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | cyount2009 - 2016-02-04 12:54 PM I am not buying the whole gun in the pocket thing. I haven't from the beginning. First off, why would you put a gun in that inside pocket any way? It's barely big enough to hold a snuff can.
And McCain selling mining rights to a foreign country from the Tonto National Forest, still has my head spinning. Some say the government did this to help pay off the debt they have to China. No matter the reason..It's not just wrong..but it's dead wrong. McCain was a champion to the Native Americans a few decades ago and then turns around and slits their throats. Makes me want to puke. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Red Raider - 2016-02-04 2:45 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:25 PM As usual, you miss the point. I said this was an excerpt from an ad posted on www.ranchworldads.com for employment. I included the part about the property to emphasize what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land. Quoting all of their "good works" does not take away the fact that one family controls land that numerous families used to make a living on. If you choose to be willfully ignorant to the consequences of privatization, so be it. I wouldn't exactly consider the Matador Ranch as the best example to prove that point, especially when you look at the history of how it evolved in Texas. That ranch has always belonged to a select few people from the original land purchase and because of their actions, people came to work there and settle the land because of the ranch. They didn't come in and take things away from "families who used to make a living on" the land -- they always owned the operation in that manner. It's not much different from the other big ranches in that part of Texas who have been run in the same manner for generations and owned by families who practically made that part of the state what it is. If not for the ranches, there wouldn't be much of anything -- schools, businesses, and employers -- in those areas because they are so remote. So if you want to talk about what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land = in that part of the world it means people living there could establish communities, churches and schools because of what the ranches brought in and provided for them in that area.
The King Ranch is sure a great example of that. There was a whole town built because of that ranch. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is so very well said: https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photos/a.1649978758609487.1073741830.1648792115394818/1658723654401664/?type=3&theater | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is getting scary...I haven't been following exactly thier 'train of thought' as I'm reluctant to even click on things that may be 'out there'...however, I have looked up the various laws pertaining to the constitution and laws that have since passed, such as Obama's executive decision to create a 'Council of Governors' in 2010 which supports this..is it really going to get crazy? I hope and pray it does not. ¦ ¦ ¦ CONVO BETWEEN HARNEY COUNTY JUDGE AND ARMY GENERALS OFFICE: Harney county Judge asking for Military intervention ASAP. The General replied Dual Status commander protocol must be invoked to deploy troops to protect American Citizens. He also said only the president and the governor can call out the troops. Only the governor can call out the national guard. This means this attempt to get the military to stabilize the problem has currently failed. That means this issue to bring lawful remedy in Harney county is up to the citizens which means we are looking at CIVIL WAR as the only remaining remedy available to the citizens.
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-04 3:46 PM
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 Toastest with the Mostest
Posts: 5712
    Location: That part of Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-02-04 3:08 PM Red Raider - 2016-02-04 2:45 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-02-03 9:25 PM As usual, you miss the point. I said this was an excerpt from an ad posted on www.ranchworldads.com for employment. I included the part about the property to emphasize what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land. Quoting all of their "good works" does not take away the fact that one family controls land that numerous families used to make a living on. If you choose to be willfully ignorant to the consequences of privatization, so be it. I wouldn't exactly consider the Matador Ranch as the best example to prove that point, especially when you look at the history of how it evolved in Texas. That ranch has always belonged to a select few people from the original land purchase and because of their actions, people came to work there and settle the land because of the ranch. They didn't come in and take things away from "families who used to make a living on" the land -- they always owned the operation in that manner. It's not much different from the other big ranches in that part of Texas who have been run in the same manner for generations and owned by families who practically made that part of the state what it is. If not for the ranches, there wouldn't be much of anything -- schools, businesses, and employers -- in those areas because they are so remote. So if you want to talk about what happens when billionaires are given the opportunity to purchase vast tracts of land = in that part of the world it means people living there could establish communities, churches and schools because of what the ranches brought in and provided for them in that area. The King Ranch is sure a great example of that. There was a whole town built because of that ranch. The King Ranch is a good example too but it's about 8 hours away from this part of the world where the Matador ranch is located and has almost more humble beginnings then the ranches here. I say that because almost all of the big ranches in West Texas/South Plains/Panhandle area were started by a small group of people/single families who had a great deal of money for that time (usually late 1800's after the Indians were driven out of the country-side) to purchase these large tracts of land out in the middle of nowhere. The King Ranch founders were paupers in comparison to the ranch founders in this part of Texas.
Ranches that border or otherwise are in close proximity to the Matador Ranch include the 6666 Ranch, JA Ranch, Waggoner Ranch and a little bit up the road you have the XIT Ranch. All three of those ranches were started by "billionaires" of that day and age who purchased hundreds of thousands of acres of land to establish them. At the time that they were established, they were about the only thing out here on the plains other than smaller settlements that had previously been old army forts on the border fighting the indians, a few other small towns that supported trade for the local buffalo hunters and/or the cattle trail riders and passers through on their way out west. The only reason why you would travel to those areas was to work for one of those ranches because there was nothing else out there. Those ranches made it possible for people to settle here, eventually establish towns separate from them but they still play a huge part in being big employers/community supporters in this day and age.
Edited by Red Raider 2016-02-04 3:51 PM
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| The video of the shooting makes me sick to my stomach.
We have POTUS and government that refused to classify the Fort Hood shooter as a terrorist (workplace violence) yet call these men who LEGALLY carried arms as terrorist. Not one of them has fired a shot, I have not seen any evidence that they ever threatened anyone with a gun, yet they are terrorists. They chose an isolated area, NOT downtown Portland, to stage their protest. They did not endanger anyone but themselves, yet they are terrorists?
Because they were defending their (OUR) Constitutional rights and were getting press they needed to be silenced before more people listened and began to understand.
The man was out of the truck WITH HIS ARMS IN THE AIR, for all to see by the released video, when he was shot, then he was shot 4 more times. He may have been armed but LEGALLY ARMED. Just because a person carries does NOT give law enforcement the right to shoot them. Had he different skin color the hue and cry would be raised by the left, who stand by and not only watch but applaud the rioting and destruction such as we witnessed in Missouri and other places. Those are just unhappy, underemployed folks making their feelings known.
Sigh.....I fear common sense and straight clear thinking for oneself is disappearing from the population at large.
As to whom ever said that the States rights battle has already been fought, maybe had schools taught what the South was really fighting for, many might have a different view of the Civil War. I didn't understand why the South is still "fighting" that war, being that slavery is unconscionable (what we were taught the war was ALL about), now I understand the issue of States rights and why they were/are so important.
edited to add: The
Edited by rodeoveteran 2016-02-04 4:11 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Please read completely:
An Open Letter to the FBI and Other Federal Agencies
By: Jake Morphonios, ETNR
February 4, 2016
Over the years, I have had both good and bad interactions with the FBI. I've had friendships with agents in the CIA and the FBI while maintaining an ardent opposition to the agencies themselves. These connections have proven valuable, especially with regard to my reporting. Just this week, I was able to visit with a friend of mine in the FBI and ask some questions about FBI operations (see photo). I disagree with the sentiment that all federal employees are villains. Some of the people in these services share many of the same concerns that I do regarding the constitutionality of their operations. They see the rapid militarization of various federal bureaucracies into a very large, centrally-controlled standing army and it causes them alarm. These individuals are decent people - patriotic Americans who, like many of us, want what is best for our nation, though we differ in opinion on how to achieve our goals. It is to those individuals that this message is written.
I do not believe that it is justifiable to shoot an innocent man in cold blood, while he has his hands in the air, to silence his political speech - especially when the warrant for his arrest says that his "crime" is nothing more than hindering a few workers in a bird sanctuary from going about their daily routine. What the FBI did to LaVoy was atrocious and I want you to understand why.
The "crime" that LaVoy Finicum engaged in is called “civil disobedience,” and it is a very important type of free speech. I can see how some people with different perspectives might think that he should be arrested for participating in an act of civil disobedience.
But I cannot see how the situation in Oregon could justify:
• using armed drones and reconnaissance planes;
• FBI surveillance of the phones and computers of hundreds of people (including people not even at the refuge);
• acts of malicious intimidation by filling the town to the brim with over a hundred heavily armed agents and scores of government vehicles;
• posting heavily armed militarized goons around the public courthouse who refuse repeatedly to identify who they work for to the public;
• monitoring the online activities of citizens who are talking about the issue in social media;
• using undercover agents to pose as protesters to infiltrate and harass the local population to try to turn them against the protesters;
• creating a no-fly zone over the area;
* engaging in false negotiations;
• using an entire convoy of federal vehicles to shut down a vast stretch of highway without the consent of the local sheriff;
• shooting at LaVoy's vehicle twice to make him unwittingly flee for safety toward a pre-determined kill zone;
• firing at him during the chase;
• setting up a roadblock with federal agents, state police and Blackstone mercenaries;
• posting multiple snipers in the woods, some with snowmobiles;
• jumping out from behind cover to try to shoot him through his windshield;
• pumping him full of bullets after he got out with his hands up to try to draw fire away from his fellow passengers;
• flipping him the bird and withholding medical treatment while he lay dying in the snow;
• terrorizing three innocent people in the vehicle by firing flash grenades, bullets and tear gas pellets at them for 10 minutes (putting a bullet into the arm of one of the passengers and emotionally scarring a teenage girl for the rest of her life);
• and, on top of it all, releasing a video to justify the murder by claiming that LaVoy was "going for a gun", when in fact he was reaching down to clutch at a bullet wound he had just received.
So let's ask ourselves: was the US government justified in this kind of response to an act of civil disobedience? Let's look at how civil disobedience has been handled in the past.
I live in Greensboro, NC - the site of the famous 1960 "Greensboro Sit-In." Four black men entered a Woolworth department store and sat down at the "whites only" lunch counter and asked to be served. Though they were told to leave, the men continued sitting at the counter beyond the store closing time and refused to leave. The next day 20 more blacks joined the sit-in. Then the numbers rose to 60, then to 300, all the way up to nearly 1,400 protesters, both black and white. The sit-in dragged on for months. By the time the sit-in was finished, the store claimed nearly $200,000 in losses ($1.6 million today). The Greensboro sit-in sparked other protests, sit-ins, and acts of civil disobedience around the country. The lunch counter employees were not able to go about their work routines and both customers and workers reported feeling threatened and intimidated. But at no point did federal agents wiretap them, surround them with light armored tanks or shoot anyone. In fact, not only did federal agents not get involved, but not even local police authorities tried to arrest the activists. The North Carolina History web site says, "The reaction of police departments in the region was, by and large, muted."
How times have changed. And, unfortunately, not for the better.
Since the passage of the USA Patriot Act following the September 11th attacks, civil liberties and constitutional rights have eroded at an astounding pace. It is natural that in the face of ongoing oppression by an out-of-touch, out-of-control, and out-of-its-mind federal government the citizens are going to engage in peaceful resistance. It is not only our right, but it is our duty. Civil disobedience is the act of disobeying a law on justified grounds of moral or political principle. A very common form of civil disobedience is the occupation of property or buildings. We engage in civil disobedience to try to influence society into accepting a point of view that goes against the point of view of the oppressor. In other words, civil disobedience is meant to wake up the sleeping masses and draw their attention to an injustice that is so morally repugnant that they should get involved, even if the problem does not currently affect them personally.
If you're interested in this subject, you may wish to read "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau. He reasons that when a person's conscience clashes with existing law, the person has the moral right to follow his conscience rather than the law. A principle of civil disobedience is that when a law genuinely violates a person's conscience, that person has the right to act now - rather than wait for the day when the law might be changed. In fact, the Declaration of Independence proclaimed that government gets its power from the people and if that government misuses its authority it is the right and the duty of the people to fight back - which is exactly what Ammon, Ryan, LaVoy, Shawna and the other Citizens for Constitutional Freedom were doing.
Our nation's history is rife with acts of civil disobedience against government, from the Boston Tea Party where colonists trespassed on government property and destroyed its cargo, to Harriet Tubman's underground railroad to help free slaves, to the Women's Suffrage Movement when thousands of women were arrested and jailed for their acts of civil disobedience designed to secure equal rights, to the anti-war movement during the Vietnam era. On and on the list goes, right down to our day when private property owners in the West are rising up in large numbers to protest the ongoing theft of lands and abuse by the federal government's various agencies.
In all of these various movements, the citizens had first tried to achieve justice through the legal process. They petitioned for a redress of their grievances. They lobbied and petitioned, wrote letters, went to court, tried to work through state legislatures - all for nothing. In each instance, the legitimate demands of every single group were flatly rejected. When justice cannot be obtained through the existing legal and political systems, civil disobedience naturally follows. Engaging in civil disobedience does not mean that a person is immoral or criminal. It means that they have the courage of their convictions to put their own safety and freedom at risk for a cause greater than themselves.
Engaging in civil disobedience should not make an American citizen a target for political assassination by our government. And I hope that my friends and acquaintances who work in the FBI and other federal agencies will, from today forward, have the moral courage to disobey orders that violate the US Constitution or that otherwise violate their conscience. I know some of you, and I know that you do not agree with many of the actions being taken by your superiors. I call on you to either remain within your organizations and actively work to subvert efforts to harass or harm innocent citizens - or quit.
However, if you continue "just following orders" to keep earning a paycheck at the expense of the justice and liberty of your fellow man, you should feel shame every day as you look in the mirror at yourself. "I'm just following orders" was the same defense that the Nazis gave during the Nuremberg Trials to justify their assaults on innocent people. The time has come for you to ask yourself where your true loyalties lie and pick a side. You can either stand with the American people and try to protect us, or you can stand with the government that is oppressing us and operate as its hammer to pound the citizens into submission.
Depending on your choice, you determine whether you are my friend - or my enemy.
?#?JusticeForLaVoy? ?#?LibertyRising?
Jake on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/prepare333/subscribe
Jake on Facebook: www.facebook.com/endtimesnewsreport
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | I would like for 1DSoon, Vickie and especially FinneyQtrHorses to read this piece! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Dear Friends, Hundreds of people were freely coming into the refuge to get education on their rights. Many group presentations were given each day. On Saturday, the 24th, ten ranchers from Oregon, Nevada, Utah, and Arizona nullified their grazing contracts with the BLM and U.S. Forest Service. On Saturday, the 24th, grand jury administrators from Nebraska and Florida were forming a grand jury to review the abuses in the Hammond case. Tuesday, the 27th, the day LaVoy was killed, we began releasing documents exposing criminal acts by the government. The evening of the 27th, a meeting was scheduled with Grant County residents to give a presentation with those at the refuge. To give their presentation to hundreds of people in the county, including the county Sheriff. The FBI attacked those who were to give the presentation on the way to this peaceful meeting, leaving hundreds at the meeting with no speakers. On Wednesday, the 28th, a follow up meeting was scheduled with Harney County residents with those at the refuge to finalize actions to claim back lands that were taken by the BLM, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and United States Forest Service. This included plans to take action to begin logging again in Harney County and to restore the thriving economy once known to the Harney County residents. On Thursday evening, the 29th, a meeting was scheduled with Malheur County residents with those at the refuge to give a presentation on the constitution as it pertained to federal limits to land ownership inside the states. This meeting was to occur in Ontario, Oregon. Hundreds were expected to attend. The sheriff's Department also accepted the invitation and was scheduled to attend. On Friday afternoon, the 30th, residents surrounding Jordan Valley, Oregon, had scheduled a seminar with those at the refuge to come out and inform them of how they can protect themselves from a national monument that is to be signed in by President Obama this year, 2016. This monument is twice the size of Yellowstone, takes up a third of the county's land mass, and will put over 250 ranchers out of business as they know it. Ranchers from Malheur county were scheduled to nullify their contracts with the U.S. Forest Service. In the following weeks, meetings were scheduled in Wyoming, Montana, Utah, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, and the State of Washington. Multiple Skype meetings were also set up throughout the Western U.S. All these meetings were to discuss how they would stand against the unconstitutional land control by the federal government. Those at the refuge collected over 50 testimonies of ranchers who lost their family property to the U.S. Government in Harney and surrounding counties. Hundreds of government documents were compiled by those at the refuge. Many of the documents exposed abusive actions by federal government officials, Judge Grasty, Harney County Sheriff's Department and direct abuses to the Hammond family. Escalation of force from the FBI, OSP, and the Sheriff's Department incrementally increased as the education from the refuge expanded. Government officials knew that if they did not take forceful preemptive action to stop the expanding the influence of the refuge, many would begin to stand for land rights as protected by the United States Constitution. Make no mistake about it: those that were educating at the refuge and are now suffering in jail at this time are political prisoners. Those at the refuge never pointed a gun and never pulled a trigger to kill. They chose to educate, giving others the freedom to choose. The government promoted fear and forceful tactics to control and stop this education. And ultimately, they used force by the barrel of the gun. Please watch the video below. Sincerely, Ammon Bundy, 2/4/16 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7U0ssZBU4w&feature=youtu.be | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-02-03 11:16 PM
I think I've read them all. This one? I think it 'nails it'.
This is probably the most powerful piece I have read of our time. WOW! | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | Funeral today. It will be interesting to see what it will be like in Kanab, Utah. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 6:37 AM Funeral today. It will be interesting to see what it will be like in Kanab, Utah.
Are you going? We're leaving here in a bit headed that way.
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | To those traveling to LaVoy's funeral - safe travels. I had no idea how much federal land was around his ranch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanab,_Utah | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | This came up on my Facebook page this morning. When I saw it, I remembered today is the funeral for Mr. Finecum. I am posting it to in some way pay tribute to all of the famers and ranchers who no doubt are the backbone of the United States of America. I have seen so many comments posted on articles about what is happening between ranchers and the government that sadly I have come to realize many just don't get it - even more alarming - many just don't care.
http://www.dailyliked.net/nfl-commercial-farmers/ | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | musikmaker - 2016-02-05 7:52 AM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 6:37 AM Funeral today. It will be interesting to see what it will be like in Kanab, Utah.
Are you going? We're leaving here in a bit headed that way.
Will you give us an update?
I wish it wasn't so far from Texas, I'd like to pay my respects to him for taking a stand. | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | musikmaker - 2016-02-05 7:52 AM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 6:37 AM Funeral today. It will be interesting to see what it will be like in Kanab, Utah.
Are you going? We're leaving here in a bit headed that way.
My wife reminded me of my grand daughters baptism tomorrow morning so I will have to catch the funeral and info on the news. | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
    Location: In The Land of Cotton | musikmaker - 2016-02-05 8:52 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 6:37 AM Funeral today. It will be interesting to see what it will be like in Kanab, Utah. Are you going? We're leaving here in a bit headed that way.
Take pictures and videos. Of course not the actual funeral. But I think you know what I mean. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
     Location: Windoming | Last night I watched the video with a retired cop narrating what his thoughts were about the whole situation. He was furious and had a lot of good points. With all the crossfiring going on, it's surprising they didn't shoot each other. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach to know what our fellow countrymen are capable of doing to innocent people. | |
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  Roan Wonder
         Location: SW MO | OK so my question is what can we do about this ? | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | crossspur - 2016-02-05 10:11 AM OK so my question is what can we do about this ?
I've been working on emailing politicians and news stations. IDK that it does much good, but at least I'm trying. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I was reading a post a couple of days ago. I saw someone posted this. It's wonderful. So I asked if I could share it. The first is the original version and credit given to the author. The second is a modern version with credit given to the author.
Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.
Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Modern version.
David Beall They came for the children
But I had no small children so I didn't stand up.
They came for the ranchers
But I'm not a rancher so I didn't stand up.
They came for the guns
But I don't have any guns so I didn't stand up.
They came after the people who speak out against tyranny
But I don't speak out so I didn't stand up.
They came after me
But there was no one left to stand up.
My friends, if you have never stood for anything now is the time. Look around you, how much freedom do you have? What we have now is NOT what our forefathers wanted for us. STAND UP AND BE COUNTED. BE A PATRIOT. BE AN AMERICAN.
Edited by OregonBR 2016-02-05 10:47 AM
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | crossspur - 2016-02-05 8:11 AM
OK so my question is what can we do about this ?
Educate yourself about the issues. Then educate others about them in person and in writing.
I've been posting on every relevant topic about real causes of this standoff/Hammonds. Posting links and telling people the real issues. They don't always want to hear it. But I do it anyway. You know people are idiots and closed minded when my comments get deleted off CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL PAGES on facebook. LOL | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| Heer is evidence that BOTH sided of the political spectrum are the same coin. It has become more obvious with our present POTUS who changes LAWS without Congress' consent. The sneakier version of this is the Patriot Act, passed through people's fears for their safety. Up to that point, I was ambivalent about Bush, gave him the benefit of the doubt in the weapons of mass destruction thing, but the PA was outright in taking more and more of our freedoms. Even MORE disturbing (and I remember seeing support of it on this board in the form of things like...I have no problem with a pat down or xray before boarding a plane to keep me safe....) are the number of people that enthusiastically supported it in the name of their own safety. I don't know about y'all but I do NOT feel safer. Guns and bombs slip through while they search random innocents because the "law" prevents them from targeting likely suspects.
And it has lead to this EXACT situation. Home grown, American citizens excercizing their RIGHT to Civil Disobedience are now classified as terrorists and no longer have access to due process. They can be held for ever, with no access to a lawyer or the legal system, with no contact to the outside world. This is NOT a function of the Country that I grew up in. It is on it's way to the USSA (thank you to the Socialists and Progressives in our midst).
It's that slippery slope. Force the states to pass speed laws or withhold Federal money. Pass seat belt laws in the name of safety, leading to the eventual ability of law enforcement to stop anyone at any time with no real probable cause. Voting booths have disappeared, replaced by tables with flimsy, small cardboard dividers and paper ballots linked to your voter ID# (want to keep track of how we vote?!). Take over the standards and practices of public schools, teaching increasing propaganda and practices and had already lead to children turning their parents in for actually parenting their children under the guise of the child's well being. (Teaching kids that this country was founded as a Democracy...it was NOT. It was founded as a Republic of Independent states, each with their own laws. The Federal government was instituted for the protection of the whole from OUTSIDE threats, and to allow free passage from one state to another without restrictions. Not quite what I was taught a long time ago and eons from what is being taught now.) So the slippery slope steepens and we are dangerously close, if not past the point of stopping the slide to the ending of our Country and life as we know it. This is exactly WHY the Constitution was written, by some of the best minds of their time. Well educated in history, they tried to put in fail safes to protect their future countrymen and women from the fall of this civilization we are careening towards at an ever increasing pace.
I shudder in fear every time I hear catchphrases like "safety" and my favorite, "For the good of the children". Many laws are passed under the guise of safety and welfare, but even if the law is proposed and passed by well intended people who would never dream of ABUSING and misusing that law to gain more power and control over the people. Unfortunately, it is human nature. Even more unfortunate in this day and age , is the massive amount of data that can now be gathered, collated and monitored......no microscopically examined and interpreted so that ANY of us could be shown to be an enemy of the State.
I do have small hope that people are starting wake up and give voice to their rights. This and mainly THIS is, I think, why Donald Trump has seen the support he has enjoyed so far. People are tired of political correctness and politics as usual and have embraced him as an anti-politician. I can only hope that he would use his position , if elected, for the good of the people and this Country, instead of furthering Government's seizing power from the very people it was formed to protect.
All of this is what Lavoy Finecum died to protect. What the protestors (not terrorists) in Burns. Not just for individual ranchers, but for ALL of us.
I fear that we are headed for either Government domination and control or a revolution. I don't see much room in between.
Sorry, didn't mean to write a book.
Edited to ad: I do not think that ALL in government and law enforcement are corrupt. I do think that many get in to it for the right reason, but never forget , Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Edited by rodeoveteran 2016-02-05 12:05 PM
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 12:17 PM Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
Shawna Cox? | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | rodeoveteran - 2016-02-05 10:02 AM
Heer is evidence that BOTH sided of the political spectrum are the same coin. It has become more obvious with our present POTUS who changes LAWS without Congress' consent. The sneakier version of this is the Patriot Act, passed through people's fears for their safety. Up to that point, I was ambivalent about Bush, gave him the benefit of the doubt in the weapons of mass destruction thing, but the PA was outright in taking more and more of our freedoms. Even MORE disturbing (and I remember seeing support of it on this board in the form of things like...I have no problem with a pat down or xray before boarding a plane to keep me safe.... ) are the number of people that enthusiastically supported it in the name of their own safety. I don't know about y'all but I do NOT feel safer. Guns and bombs slip through while they search random innocents because the "law" prevents them from targeting likely suspects.
And it has lead to this EXACT situation. Home grown, American citizens excercizing their RIGHT to Civil Disobedience are now classified as terrorists and no longer have access to due process. They can be held for ever, with no access to a lawyer or the legal system, with no contact to the outside world. This is NOT a function of the Country that I grew up in. It is on it's way to the USSA (thank you to the Socialists and Progressives in our midst ).
It's that slippery slope. Force the states to pass speed laws or withhold Federal money. Pass seat belt laws in the name of safety, leading to the eventual ability of law enforcement to stop anyone at any time with no real probable cause. Voting booths have disappeared, replaced by tables with flimsy, small cardboard dividers and paper ballots linked to your voter ID# (want to keep track of how we vote?! ). Take over the standards and practices of public schools, teaching increasing propaganda and practices and had already lead to children turning their parents in for actually parenting their children under the guise of the child's well being. (Teaching kids that this country was founded as a Democracy...it was NOT. It was founded as a Republic of Independent states, each with their own laws. The Federal government was instituted for the protection of the whole from OUTSIDE threats, and to allow free passage from one state to another without restrictions. Not quite what I was taught a long time ago and eons from what is being taught now. ) So the slippery slope steepens and we are dangerously close, if not past the point of stopping the slide to the ending of our Country and life as we know it. This is exactly WHY the Constitution was written, by some of the best minds of their time. Well educated in history, they tried to put in fail safes to protect their future countrymen and women from the fall of this civilization we are careening towards at an ever increasing pace.
I shudder in fear every time I hear catchphrases like "safety" and my favorite, "For the good of the children". Many laws are passed under the guise of safety and welfare, but even if the law is proposed and passed by well intended people who would never dream of ABUSING and misusing that law to gain more power and control over the people. Unfortunately, it is human nature. Even more unfortunate in this day and age , is the massive amount of data that can now be gathered, collated and monitored......no microscopically examined and interpreted so that ANY of us could be shown to be an enemy of the State.
I do have small hope that people are starting wake up and give voice to their rights. This and mainly THIS is, I think, why Donald Trump has seen the support he has enjoyed so far. People are tired of political correctness and politics as usual and have embraced him as an anti-politician. I can only hope that he would use his position , if elected, for the good of the people and this Country, instead of furthering Government's seizing power from the very people it was formed to protect.
All of this is what Lavoy Finecum died to protect. What the protestors (not terrorists ) in Burns. Not just for individual ranchers, but for ALL of us.
I fear that we are headed for either Government domination and control or a revolution. I don't see much room in between.
Sorry, didn't mean to write a book.
Edited to ad: I do not think that ALL in government and law enforcement are corrupt. I do think that many get in to it for the right reason, but never forget , Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | cyount2009 - 2016-02-05 10:22 AM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 12:17 PM Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
Shawna Cox?
The judge said she couldn't attend. | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | She will speak after the funeral sorry for not including that. | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | The local news interviewed in a live video with the Kane County Sheriff in southern Utah. He said he has asked the Federal authorities to stay away from Kanab Utah because of high emotions and many people from around the west will be attending the funeral. There is plenty of local LE in Kanab and from other counties and UHP to provide safety today.
After the funeral there will be a memorial horse ride and a benefit concert.
Edited by Douglas J Gordon 2016-02-05 1:04 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| OregonBR - 2016-02-05 12:51 PM
cyount2009 - 2016-02-05 10:22 AM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 12:17 PM Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
Shawna Cox?
The judge said she couldn't attend.
A different judge gave her permission to go but she may only enter the church, attend the funeral, give condolences and then go directly home. She was directly ordered not to give any public statement while she is there.
Edited by cyount2009 2016-02-05 1:05 PM
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | cyount2009 - 2016-02-05 1:03 PM OregonBR - 2016-02-05 12:51 PM cyount2009 - 2016-02-05 10:22 AM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 12:17 PM Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
Shawna Cox? The judge said she couldn't attend. A different judge gave her permission to go but she may only enter the church, attend the funeral, give condolences and then go directly home. She was directly ordered not to give any public statement while she is there.
Thanks for the up date. | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | http://thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/22463-family-sec... | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon By Faith Heaton Jolley | Posted Jan 4th, 2016 @ 5:20pm
While some of the western ranchers involed in this occupation are LDS/Mormon, the church had a statement back on January 4th.
5PM: LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon BURNS, Ore. — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Monday after armed protesters took over a federal building at an Oregon wildlife refuge during a land dispute. One of the protesters occupying the national wildlife refuge in Oregon says the ultimate goal is to turn the land over to local authorities so people can use it free of federal oversight, according to the Associated Press. Ryan Bundy — one of the sons of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who was involved in a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights — told The Associated Press Sunday the protesters want to "restore the rights to people so they can use the land and resources" for ranching, logging, mining and recreation.
The LDS Church released the following statement in regards to the ongoing situation:
"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land." | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 1:52 PM
LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in OregonBy Faith Heaton Jolley | Posted Jan 4th, 2016 @ 5:20pm While some of the western ranchers involed in this occupation are LDS/Mormon, the church had a statement back on January 4th.
5PM: LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon BURNS, Ore. — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Monday after armed protesters took over a federal building at an Oregon wildlife refuge during a land dispute. One of the protesters occupying the national wildlife refuge in Oregon says the ultimate goal is to turn the land over to local authorities so people can use it free of federal oversight, according to the Associated Press. Ryan Bundy — one of the sons of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who was involved in a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights — told The Associated Press Sunday the protesters want to "restore the rights to people so they can use the land and resources" for ranching, logging, mining and recreation. The LDS Church released the following statement in regards to the ongoing situation:"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land."
And this was a peaceful resolution , right LDS? The protesters were peaceful, law enforcement was not.
This release sounds like it was penned by a politician's speech writer...... | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| This has a map of Nationwide memorials that are planned in his honor if anyone is interested.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/crowds_prepare_fo... | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 12:17 PM Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
what local news? Are they showing it live? | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-05 3:51 PM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 12:17 PM Funeral at 230 today. The family has a statement after the funeral and then the lady in the truck durinmg the shooting will speak. Then there is going to be a little memorial ride. Local news will be reporting.
what local news? Are they showing it live?
All the Salt Lake City channels are covering it as well as CNN and FOX. There were up dates during the viewing. There will be news coverage when the news starts at 5PM Utah time. | |
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   Location: Texas | rodeoveteran - 2016-02-05 2:52 PM
Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 1:52 PM
LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in OregonBy Faith Heaton Jolley | Posted Jan 4th, 2016 @ 5:20pm While some of the western ranchers involed in this occupation are LDS/Mormon, the church had a statement back on January 4th.
5PM: LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon BURNS, Ore. — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Monday after armed protesters took over a federal building at an Oregon wildlife refuge during a land dispute. One of the protesters occupying the national wildlife refuge in Oregon says the ultimate goal is to turn the land over to local authorities so people can use it free of federal oversight, according to the Associated Press. Ryan Bundy — one of the sons of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who was involved in a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights — told The Associated Press Sunday the protesters want to "restore the rights to people so they can use the land and resources" for ranching, logging, mining and recreation. The LDS Church released the following statement in regards to the ongoing situation:"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land."
And this was a peaceful resolution , right LDS? The protesters were peaceful, law enforcement was not.
This release sounds like it was penned by a politician's speech writer......
The problem is that the Hammonds sought resolution through these peaceful channels, and look how well that worked out for them! I don't agree with the armed take over of the refuge. But if any of you think that the Government was in anyway fair to the Hammonds then you need to reread the definition of fair. The BLM needs to be totally torn down and if it is even needed then start all over again. Talk about a federal program that is totally out of control. And yes, I do know what I am talking about many members of my family deal with phony BLM every year | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | EnterUp - 2016-02-05 4:26 PM rodeoveteran - 2016-02-05 2:52 PM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 1:52 PM LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon
By Faith Heaton Jolley | Posted Jan 4th, 2016 @ 5:20pm
While some of the western ranchers involed in this occupation are LDS/Mormon, the church had a statement back on January 4th.
5PM: LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon
BURNS, Ore. — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Monday after armed protesters took over a federal building at an Oregon wildlife refuge during a land dispute.
One of the protesters occupying the national wildlife refuge in Oregon says the ultimate goal is to turn the land over to local authorities so people can use it free of federal oversight, according to the Associated Press. Ryan Bundy — one of the sons of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who was involved in a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights — told The Associated Press Sunday the protesters want to "restore the rights to people so they can use the land and resources" for ranching, logging, mining and recreation.
The LDS Church released the following statement in regards to the ongoing situation:
"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land." And this was a peaceful resolution , right LDS? The protesters were peaceful, law enforcement was not. This release sounds like it was penned by a politician's speech writer...... The problem is that the Hammonds sought resolution through these peaceful channels, and look how well that worked out for them! I don't agree with the armed take over of the refuge. But if any of you think that the Government was in anyway fair to the Hammonds then you need to reread the definition of fair. The BLM needs to be totally torn down and if it is even needed then start all over again. Talk about a federal program that is totally out of control. And yes, I do know what I am talking about many members of my family deal with phony BLM every year
Totally agree that the 2 Hammonds were screwed big time. That subject right there needs to be explained to everyone because this is a big reason for the occupation. It is OK for the BLM to burn their property and if the fire gets away no big deal but if a rancher burns his fields and it gets away the rancher is prosecuted for arson. Crazy freakin world of power by the BLM. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 4:35 PM EnterUp - 2016-02-05 4:26 PM rodeoveteran - 2016-02-05 2:52 PM Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-05 1:52 PM LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon
By Faith Heaton Jolley | Posted Jan 4th, 2016 @ 5:20pm
While some of the western ranchers involed in this occupation are LDS/Mormon, the church had a statement back on January 4th.
5PM: LDS Church releases statement regarding armed occupation in Oregon
BURNS, Ore. — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Monday after armed protesters took over a federal building at an Oregon wildlife refuge during a land dispute.
One of the protesters occupying the national wildlife refuge in Oregon says the ultimate goal is to turn the land over to local authorities so people can use it free of federal oversight, according to the Associated Press. Ryan Bundy — one of the sons of Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy, who was involved in a 2014 standoff with the government over grazing rights — told The Associated Press Sunday the protesters want to "restore the rights to people so they can use the land and resources" for ranching, logging, mining and recreation.
The LDS Church released the following statement in regards to the ongoing situation:
"While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land." And this was a peaceful resolution , right LDS? The protesters were peaceful, law enforcement was not. This release sounds like it was penned by a politician's speech writer...... The problem is that the Hammonds sought resolution through these peaceful channels, and look how well that worked out for them! I don't agree with the armed take over of the refuge. But if any of you think that the Government was in anyway fair to the Hammonds then you need to reread the definition of fair. The BLM needs to be totally torn down and if it is even needed then start all over again. Talk about a federal program that is totally out of control. And yes, I do know what I am talking about many members of my family deal with phony BLM every year Totally agree that the 2 Hammonds were screwed big time. That subject right there needs to be explained to everyone because this is a big reason for the occupation. It is OK for the BLM to burn their property and if the fire gets away no big deal but if a rancher burns his fields and it gets away the rancher is prosecuted for arson. Crazy freakin world of power by the BLM.
And charge them as domestic terrorists while real terrorists acts get called workplace violence. We are so screwed. | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | A very nice tribute to LaVoy Finicum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ep0ejsZ9Us | |
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Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | cruise - 2016-02-05 8:48 AM
This came up on my Facebook page this morning. When I saw it, I remembered today is the funeral for Mr. Finecum. I am posting it to in some way pay tribute to all of the famers and ranchers who no doubt are the backbone of the United States of America. I have seen so many comments posted on articles about what is happening between ranchers and the government that sadly I have come to realize many just don't get it - even more alarming - many just don't care. http://www.dailyliked.net/nfl-commercial-farmers/
Love that. Made me cry thinking about my grandpa and his brothers and their daddy clearing the land with mules all those years ago. And how proud Pappaw was of his farm. . . Til the day be died. . . | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | rodeoveteran - 2016-02-05 12:02 PM
Heer is evidence that BOTH sided of the political spectrum are the same coin. It has become more obvious with our present POTUS who changes LAWS without Congress' consent. The sneakier version of this is the Patriot Act, passed through people's fears for their safety. Up to that point, I was ambivalent about Bush, gave him the benefit of the doubt in the weapons of mass destruction thing, but the PA was outright in taking more and more of our freedoms. Even MORE disturbing (and I remember seeing support of it on this board in the form of things like...I have no problem with a pat down or xray before boarding a plane to keep me safe.... ) are the number of people that enthusiastically supported it in the name of their own safety. I don't know about y'all but I do NOT feel safer. Guns and bombs slip through while they search random innocents because the "law" prevents them from targeting likely suspects.
And it has lead to this EXACT situation. Home grown, American citizens excercizing their RIGHT to Civil Disobedience are now classified as terrorists and no longer have access to due process. They can be held for ever, with no access to a lawyer or the legal system, with no contact to the outside world. This is NOT a function of the Country that I grew up in. It is on it's way to the USSA (thank you to the Socialists and Progressives in our midst ).
It's that slippery slope. Force the states to pass speed laws or withhold Federal money. Pass seat belt laws in the name of safety, leading to the eventual ability of law enforcement to stop anyone at any time with no real probable cause. Voting booths have disappeared, replaced by tables with flimsy, small cardboard dividers and paper ballots linked to your voter ID# (want to keep track of how we vote?! ). Take over the standards and practices of public schools, teaching increasing propaganda and practices and had already lead to children turning their parents in for actually parenting their children under the guise of the child's well being. (Teaching kids that this country was founded as a Democracy...it was NOT. It was founded as a Republic of Independent states, each with their own laws. The Federal government was instituted for the protection of the whole from OUTSIDE threats, and to allow free passage from one state to another without restrictions. Not quite what I was taught a long time ago and eons from what is being taught now. ) So the slippery slope steepens and we are dangerously close, if not past the point of stopping the slide to the ending of our Country and life as we know it. This is exactly WHY the Constitution was written, by some of the best minds of their time. Well educated in history, they tried to put in fail safes to protect their future countrymen and women from the fall of this civilization we are careening towards at an ever increasing pace.
I shudder in fear every time I hear catchphrases like "safety" and my favorite, "For the good of the children". Many laws are passed under the guise of safety and welfare, but even if the law is proposed and passed by well intended people who would never dream of ABUSING and misusing that law to gain more power and control over the people. Unfortunately, it is human nature. Even more unfortunate in this day and age , is the massive amount of data that can now be gathered, collated and monitored......no microscopically examined and interpreted so that ANY of us could be shown to be an enemy of the State.
I do have small hope that people are starting wake up and give voice to their rights. This and mainly THIS is, I think, why Donald Trump has seen the support he has enjoyed so far. People are tired of political correctness and politics as usual and have embraced him as an anti-politician. I can only hope that he would use his position , if elected, for the good of the people and this Country, instead of furthering Government's seizing power from the very people it was formed to protect.
All of this is what Lavoy Finecum died to protect. What the protestors (not terrorists ) in Burns. Not just for individual ranchers, but for ALL of us.
I fear that we are headed for either Government domination and control or a revolution. I don't see much room in between.
Sorry, didn't mean to write a book.
Edited to ad: I do not think that ALL in government and law enforcement are corrupt. I do think that many get in to it for the right reason, but never forget , Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Reading what some of you are posting, I know in my heart of hearts y'all are smarter and care more about this once great country of ours than the people who are running it. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Chandler's Mom - 2016-02-06 1:27 AM cruise - 2016-02-05 8:48 AM This came up on my Facebook page this morning. When I saw it, I remembered today is the funeral for Mr. Finecum. I am posting it to in some way pay tribute to all of the famers and ranchers who no doubt are the backbone of the United States of America. I have seen so many comments posted on articles about what is happening between ranchers and the government that sadly I have come to realize many just don't get it - even more alarming - many just don't care.
http://www.dailyliked.net/nfl-commercial-farmers/
Love that. Made me cry thinking about my grandpa and his brothers and their daddy clearing the land with mules all those years ago. And how proud Pappaw was of his farm. . . Til the day be died. . .
My granddaddy cleared our home farm with mules too, back in the 30s. He later bought his parents' and siblings' land and sacrificed a lot to do it. They made sure we kids knew what they went through to build what we have today.
Anyway, before he and my grandmother married, he built a table out of cypress lumber that he cut down off their land and planed himself. It's mine now, and I would shoot someone over that table.  | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglO5FCYquA .LaVoy Finicum funeral procession. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-06 10:21 AM
Chandler's Mom - 2016-02-06 1:27 AM cruise - 2016-02-05 8:48 AM This came up on my Facebook page this morning. When I saw it, I remembered today is the funeral for Mr. Finecum. I am posting it to in some way pay tribute to all of the famers and ranchers who no doubt are the backbone of the United States of America. I have seen so many comments posted on articles about what is happening between ranchers and the government that sadly I have come to realize many just don't get it - even more alarming - many just don't care.
http://www.dailyliked.net/nfl-commercial-farmers/
Love that. Made me cry thinking about my grandpa and his brothers and their daddy clearing the land with mules all those years ago. And how proud Pappaw was of his farm. . . Til the day be died. . .
My granddaddy cleared our home farm with mules too, back in the 30s. He later bought his parents' and siblings' land and sacrificed a lot to do it. They made sure we kids knew what they went through to build what we have today.
Anyway, before he and my grandmother married, he built a table out of cypress lumber that he cut down off their land and planed himself. It's mine now, and I would shoot someone over that table. 
I live on land and in the old farmhouse that four generations of my family have worked and lived on. The old barn where the mules stayed still stands - well over 100 years old. I have the hand push plow with the one wheel and one spade behind it we used to "lay off" the rows to plant a huge garden. When things started coming in days were spent on the front porch shelling peas, breaking beans, shucking corn, etc. Canning, canning and more canning followed. What some would call hard work was family time for us. I loved it. I think growing up like that, if you embrace it, teaches you to respect the land and what it provides. Not for greedy reasons for the selling of minerals to foreign countries, but for sustaining life. The thought of being squeezed off this place by the government allows me to understand how ranchers who are pressed off their land by the government are upset. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-06 8:48 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglO5FCYquA .LaVoy Finicum funeral procession.
Thank you for posting this! There were so many people there that we missed this. They later said there were about 4,000 people attended Lavoy's funeral. It was a very sad and somber day...I was able to meet & visit with Cliven & Carol and many others as we stayed at the same hotel, salt of the earth. Victoria was at the funeral, too...very sweet & pretty young lady. I don't think that Shawna ended up going to the funeral...they buried her son-in-law today. The entire town of Kanab is in mourning for both of their losses as both men were highly thought of...all I can say is it's too da** bad that the 'Constitutional Virus' had to start in Oregon! ANYwhere else and saving our country would have so much more support from not only the public, but, commissioneers, sheriffs, governors...every single person in Kanab was nothing but gracious, accomodating and welcoming to everyone except the 'bad guys' (feds). Sheriff's and deputies were there from every county to keep the fed out and protect the people. A huge 'thank you' to them! That is what will heal this nation. Commissioners were there from every county...as Lavoy was a well loved man in the state of Utah. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | http://world.korupciya.com/2016/02/07/oregon-shot-heard-round-world... | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-06 9:21 AM
Chandler's Mom - 2016-02-06 1:27 AM cruise - 2016-02-05 8:48 AM This came up on my Facebook page this morning. When I saw it, I remembered today is the funeral for Mr. Finecum. I am posting it to in some way pay tribute to all of the famers and ranchers who no doubt are the backbone of the United States of America. I have seen so many comments posted on articles about what is happening between ranchers and the government that sadly I have come to realize many just don't get it - even more alarming - many just don't care.
http://www.dailyliked.net/nfl-commercial-farmers/
Love that. Made me cry thinking about my grandpa and his brothers and their daddy clearing the land with mules all those years ago. And how proud Pappaw was of his farm. . . Til the day be died. . .
My granddaddy cleared our home farm with mules too, back in the 30s. He later bought his parents' and siblings' land and sacrificed a lot to do it. They made sure we kids knew what they went through to build what we have today.
Anyway, before he and my grandmother married, he built a table out of cypress lumber that he cut down off their land and planed himself. It's mine now, and I would shoot someone over that table. 
Oh my Lord---I have a table my great grandfather made out of cypress and clay nails!! I'm like you---it is priceless to me. I can only guess at the discussions and decisions that have been made around it, and I'll pass it to Chandler when he gets married and sets up his own household.
Really neat to have closely matching backgrounds! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | cruise - 2016-02-06 3:47 PM http://world.korupciya.com/2016/02/07/oregon-shot-heard-round-world... That pretty much sums it up. So, yesterday...I met a lady at Lavoys's funeral...she's not one you will see on tv. Her family are ranchers in Burns. Very much a lady. She told me that in the beginning of the 'occupation' the locals were kinda scared...they didn't know these people, and at church one Sunday morning a preacher from a different congregation, who they all know, respect and believe, said that he'd been 'threatened' by one of the occupiers. It created a 'fear'...they had no doubt that he told the truth. Then later, they find out that the fbi were caught threatening and scaring the locals while pretending to be patriots. Her family, being 'old timers' were some who refused to 'deal ' with the blm...she said that is the divide, some 'get' something out of it and others are bullied. Like the Hammonds. ALL depending on the lands the fed want to 'acquire'. It comes down to money...always. She said that most of the people who live in Burns haven't been there long...like 5 years...and she tells them, "When you can say you lived through the drought of the 70's and the floods of the 80's...then you come talk to me about 'being from Burns, Oregon'!" She said the town is so divided...even the ranchers due to the $$$. She never met Lavoy. She supports what him and the rest are trying to do. She is a Patriotic American. And she traveled to Kanab, Utah to pay her respects.
Please support States Rights. Please write (email)to your congressmen, your commissioners & your Governor (yes...they have a national association of governors & commissioners) and tell them to suppoert States Rights, too...many will not want to do this because they receive PILT funding (bribery and blackmail) and fill their own pockets, too. Thank you...I'm very saddened and scared of the direction we are going. No potus can change this...only We The People can. Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-06 10:30 PM
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-02-06 10:29 PM cruise - 2016-02-06 3:47 PM http://world.korupciya.com/2016/02/07/oregon-shot-heard-round-world... That pretty much sums it up.
So, yesterday...I met a lady at Lavoys's funeral...she's not one you will see on tv. Her family are ranchers in Burns. Very much a lady.
She told me that in the beginning of the 'occupation' the locals were kinda scared...they didn't know these people, and at church one Sunday morning a preacher from a different congregation, who they all know, respect and believe, said that he'd been 'threatened' by one of the occupiers. It created a 'fear'...they had no doubt that he told the truth. Then later, they find out that the fbi were caught threatening and scaring the locals while pretending to be patriots. Her family, being 'old timers' were some who refused to 'deal ' with the blm...she said that is the divide, some 'get' something out of it and others are bullied. Like the Hammonds. ALL depending on the lands the fed want to 'acquire'.
It comes down to money...always.
She said that most of the people who live in Burns haven't been there long...like 5 years...and she tells them, "When you can say you lived through the drought of the 70's and the floods of the 80's...then you come talk to me about 'being from Burns, Oregon'!"
She said the town is so divided...even the ranchers due to the $$$.
She never met Lavoy. She supports what him and the rest are trying to do.
She is a Patriotic American.
And she traveled to Kanab, Utah to pay her respects.
Please support States Rights. Please write (email)to your congressmen, your commissioners & your Governor (yes...they have a national association of governors & commissioners) and tell them to suppoert States Rights, too...many will not want to do this because they receive PILT funding (bribery and blackmail) and fill their own pockets, too.
Thank you...I'm very saddened and scared of the direction we are going. No potus can change this...only We The People can.
Yep! The FBI agents posing as occupiers threatening and scaring the local's there was why the Fire Marshal resigned. The sheriff there told him to stay out of it. He couldnt consciencly allow it and wanted no part of it so he came out with the info, and resigned. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | A simple petition to sign, this was started by Lavoy's niece: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/full-investigation-death-lavoy-finicum-federal-agents-january-26-2016-united-states-ag * From someone at LaVoy Finicum's funeral: "" We were there and it was all real, just like him and his beautiful family. It's the biggest funeral anyone has ever seen, the church and streets overflowing. It is on the Arizona strip. We've known him for 20 years. He is a hero, and was murdered, and anyone who lies and disparages this great, humble, decent man isn't worthy to dust his boots. He was and is everything an American should be, a law-abiding patriot, who was beloved by everyone who ever met him, and he lived and died by good principles. It tells you who he is, how he was honored today, and always was, as he respected and honored everyone. The church was overflowing with people whose lives he touched and enriched paying their respects. Good old cowboys and ranchers, hard-working down-to-earth family people. The pictures and videos and story of his life will be told, not the way the lying, evil media and government has depicted him. people will see this gentle, peaceful cowboy who lived an exemplary life, who was the "finest timber," as his brother said today, a better man you will never see, is what people said today as well. He lived the dream this country is about -- not money -- but being a man of the earth, loving his family and god and country, a real American cowboy. His life speaks for itself. The criminal gang you call "authority" shot him in cold blood because he was what this country used to be in its shining moments, a threat to their greed and power. They laughed over his dead body. He was shot at from the time he pulled over, and he drove off to save the lives of those in the car, and they were shot at as his car hit the snowbank, and he sacrificed himself with his arms up to save everyone else, saying, "if you are going to shoot, shoot ME." He was gunned down like he was nothing, because he was everything those satanic evil soulless murderers could never be. He is what this country is built on, and was, while he was here. Now our heroes have been assassinated one by one and imprisoned and called criminals for fighting the real criminals. We were blessed by knowing men like him. Maybe his spirit and message will live on through those young men there today who showed him so much respect, because they knew him and the world was not good enough to. Rest in peace, and ride with God, cowboy. Lavoy Finicum, American hero. ~~~ Unknown | |
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Expert
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| It's so sad to watch an innocent man being murdered and most likely will get away with it. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | myhre - 2016-02-07 6:49 PM It's so sad to watch an innocent man being murdered and most likely will get away with it.
Getting away with murder seems to be the Obama way.
RIP LaVoy      | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint |
That freakin Democratic Governor in Oregon she called for the murder. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | His autopsy was last week. Does anyone know the results? It's very odd that I don't see anything about that.
Also, is there any legal recourse for his shooting? Will there be any legal repercussions?
This is a huge crisis in the western states. I haven't heard any of the presidential candidates say anything. That's very odd.
He's dead and buried. Now what? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-02-08 7:04 AM His autopsy was last week. Does anyone know the results? It's very odd that I don't see anything about that. Also, is there any legal recourse for his shooting? Will there be any legal repercussions? This is a huge crisis in the western states. I haven't heard any of the presidential candidates say anything. That's very odd. He's dead and buried. Now what?
I haven't heard anyone mention the autopsy results. Lavoy's funeral was about his 'life' not his death...although there were many references to it. The air was thick with frustration, anger...questions. Watch this...I can't get through it without crying: https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/l7vQixvV I posted a link to a whitehouse petition asking for a full investigation, they only have until the 26th to get 100,000 signatures, they only have a little over 3,000 so far. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/full-investigation-death-lavoy-finicum-federal-agents-january-26-2016-united-states-ag I do not feel comfortable speaking about some of it out of respect for the family...they will share what they need/want to share. It is weird that mainstream media isn't allowed to talk about it! Then again...our government just got busted assassinating an American Citizen who's only crime was educating people...please keep in mind that this 'federal government' is NOT the United States of America government! These are the agencies that are solely controlled by the executive branch...outside of our constitutional structure. And the federal courts are not our courts...they're 'internal courts' set up to judge the workings of the agencies...nothing more. These courts aren't affiliated with the judicial branch. I don't want to sound too crazy...ha...anyone can easily figure it out by reading and understanding our framers and their intent, fears...warnings. I hear talk that the father/daughter who drove up on the scene were the reason the shooting stopped...they've gone underground, they say. They took video, they say. So much 'smoke and mirrors'...the PPN has been compromised as have the lll%'s. Blackstone.
This is far from over...there's still 4 individuals at the refuge that haven't been forgotten by everyone...yet. The fed still has up to 1,000 agents in Burns. It's still a 'powder keg'. Pete Santilli is still being held...and for what? For reporting the truth. Ammon is kept in solitary confinement...why? He wasn't even allowed to go to his own indictment. Why is the fed so afraid of these people? I had a hard time watching the superbowl halftime show...and our National Anthem, beautiful as it was, I can't help wonder at the ignorance of the masses...do they not know that we have political prisoners that are being held because they're a threat to the powers that be? A 'virus'? Seriously? We've had many discussions on this site over the years...and here we are. There's still independents covering this...a couple I trust: http://tvoinews.com/ https://www.facebook.com/guerillamedia/?fref=ts
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
     Location: Alabama | I signed the petition. Will be researching today to see who all I can write/email about my disgust with this entire situation. It baffles me the way life is just going on as normal for the masses. This isn't in the mainstream media. People have their heads buried in the sand on these issues... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Sockittoemred - 2016-02-08 9:05 AM I signed the petition. Will be researching today to see who all I can write/email about my disgust with this entire situation. It baffles me the way life is just going on as normal for the masses. This isn't in the mainstream media. People have their heads buried in the sand on these issues...
And share it if you have facebook...please! Here's a video just out on the remaining patriots at the refuge. This is a mess...an awesome cause, but, it goes to show that The People are no longer the governing body of our once great nation. I guess that is the ultimate lesson here. Our Constitution is no longer in affect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SDLsyrbIQ4&feature=player_embedded | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | Sockittoemred - 2016-02-08 11:05 AM I signed the petition. Will be researching today to see who all I can write/email about my disgust with this entire situation. It baffles me the way life is just going on as normal for the masses. This isn't in the mainstream media. People have their heads buried in the sand on these issues...
It baffels me also. If you read comments under articles such as the ones on oregonlive you will see that far more of the general support what was done than do not. Many say it was suicide by cop - a lot call him tarp boy - most think they are all ignorant. It is very eye opening, and sad, to see how many people are so disconnected from the land that feeds them - and the people that work it. Scarier is the number of people who are fine with what happened. | |
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 Expert
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| Bear - 2016-02-08 8:04 AM
His autopsy was last week. Does anyone know the results? It's very odd that I don't see anything about that.
Also, is there any legal recourse for his shooting? Will there be any legal repercussions?
This is a huge crisis in the western states. I haven't heard any of the presidential candidates say anything. That's very odd.
He's dead and buried. Now what?
According to this article it says the FBI will not release the results for another 4 to 6 weeks. It also said that the family is declining to release the results of their private autopsy. I find a little discrediting to the claims but someone on here said their lawyers may have urged them not to.
This particular article also says the dash cams did not record the incident and that the FBI chose to use the "most clear video". Hmmmmm.....
ETA the article... duh
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/post_6.html
Edited by cyount2009 2016-02-08 10:33 AM
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | why would they not release it. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it.
Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2016-02-08 11:32 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it. Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it.
The autopsy is a fact so feds can counter it.. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| musikmaker - 2016-02-08 10:32 AM
Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it.
Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it.
That's a good point. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 10:34 AM
musikmaker - 2016-02-08 11:32 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it. Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it.
The autopsy is a fact so feds can counter it..
They absolutely can. Depending on what the private autopsy says, the feds can then twist their "findings", evidence and stories to make it look justified. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | cyount2009 - 2016-02-08 9:37 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 10:34 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-08 11:32 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it. Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it. The autopsy is a fact so feds can counter it.. They absolutely can. Depending on what the private autopsy says, the feds can then twist their "findings", evidence and stories to make it look justified.
Nothing went as planned for the fed...a bungled assassination, a video from a drone that wasn't theirs (I understand it was from the DoD...interestingly), a vehicle that came upon the scene, a planned 'shootout' that didn't occur...a story that didn't match the video, 2 witnesses whose stories DID match the video...witnesses. Period. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2016-02-08 12:00 PM cyount2009 - 2016-02-08 9:37 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 10:34 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-08 11:32 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it. Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it. The autopsy is a fact so feds can counter it.. They absolutely can. Depending on what the private autopsy says, the feds can then twist their "findings", evidence and stories to make it look justified. Nothing went as planned for the fed...a bungled assassination, a video from a drone that wasn't theirs (I understand it was from the DoD...interestingly), a vehicle that came upon the scene, a planned 'shootout' that didn't occur...a story that didn't match the video, 2 witnesses whose stories DID match the video...witnesses. Period.
I have seen that story over and over again..repeated over and over again..... and I understand that.. I just simply asked why the autopsy wasnt released.. a simple question.. but she answered so we will see what happens.. | |
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | cyount2009 - 2016-02-08 9:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-08 10:32 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-02-08 9:29 AM why would they not release it. Because the fed 'counters' everything...releasing any info gives them the opportunity to find an excuse for it. That's a good point.
Maybe they are waiting to get all their ducks in a row. Wait until the Feds come out with their official report then counter with their report. Try to keep the upper hand. They know how hard it is to beat the Feds. They need to be fully prepared to fight back.
IDK..... Just a thought. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I am betting the family hasnt released anything so as to not damage a lawsuite against the feds. Just purely conjecture here. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Check this out!! BOOM!! http://freedomoutpost.com/2016/02/superior-court-judges-on-blm-occupation-in-oregon-the-british-crown-has-kidnapped-and-press-ganged-american-land-assets-in-criminal-conspiracy-contempt-of-our-constitution/ | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is on Lavoy's oldest son's fb along with a link to the news article he's referring to: I believe this article gives more of a fair shake than what I have been seeing with mainstream media. There are just a couple points I'd like to clarify: 1) the last paragraph does not accurately represent my opinion. I feel that my father was thoughtful and prayerful about the occupation and he never wanted anyone to get hurt. IF he did make mistakes along the way then he is able to hold his head high in talking to God about that. We do not know the details and it is simply not our place to judge. I also can't help but notice similarities between his protest and the Boston Tea Party, with the exception that no property was destroyed at the refuge. 2. Regardless of what your opinion of the occupation was there is not enough evidence to support the decision to shoot my father. If the FBI is to be able to exonerate themselves, which I am convinced they are scrambling to do, they must release the bodycam and dashcam videos with untampered audio overlays as well as images of the truck. Without further evidence any viewer will confirm their own bias.3. I personally cannot see why my father would put his hands down only momentarily before raising them again if he were actually trying to withdraw a weapon. It looks like an involuntary response but these are things that only an autopsy report could confirm. So far reports have not been released. I have not come across a single friend or acquaintance who has been anything but compassionate to me and that speaks volumes to everyone's character. I simply ask that people suspend their judgment until conclusive evidence is released. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=38359072
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | An autopsy will tell us how and why he died but a forensic report will tell us the angle and direction the bullets entered and exited the body. If he was shot while lying on the ground the angles will be way different than the angles when he was standing while being shot. Also the LE said he had a loaded 9mm in the inside coat pocket. What I find interesting is that no family of friends have said he had a 9mm. No other occupiers said he had a 9mm at the protest. He was interviewed the day b4 his death with a holster under his left arm. Somebody should have seen what kind of weapon that was. Also he was a cowboy to the heart. A 9mm just doesn't seem to fit his image. A 6 shooter pistol would seem more his speed. I can't wait to see results of the reports. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | http://www.patriotnetdaily.com/nazi-occupation-replaces-militia-occ... | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | 4-6 weeks, huh? That's incredible. So there were two autopsies? I'd like to know how reliable a second autopsy is, when one has already been done. I can see why the family wants to withhold the "private" autopsy until after the ME's results are released. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Although I'm really really trying to not become 'consumed' by this...I just can't not 'keep up' as more and more info and 'connect the dots' are played. The 2 videos on this site (one is a radio interview...worth listening to...all of it/the other points out some extremely disturbing facts concerning the lack of uniforms/insignias by the leo's). This is serious. There are still 4 people at the refuge. David Fry...a young man who loved Lavoy, said he was the 1st person in his life that ever treated him like a human (he's from Ohio). Anyhow...I'm interested in hearing what those here, who are seeking the truth, honestly think. It is important. I'm not interested in hearing from those who have already made up their minds and/or refuse to hear/watch any more. I'm not looking to argue! https://www.intellihub.com/massive-number-heavily-armed-paramilitary-forces-operating-in-and-around-burns-oregon/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | cyount2009 - 2016-02-08 10:25 AM Bear - 2016-02-08 8:04 AM His autopsy was last week. Does anyone know the results? It's very odd that I don't see anything about that. Also, is there any legal recourse for his shooting? Will there be any legal repercussions? This is a huge crisis in the western states. I haven't heard any of the presidential candidates say anything. That's very odd. He's dead and buried. Now what? According to this article it says the FBI will not release the results for another 4 to 6 weeks. It also said that the family is declining to release the results of their private autopsy. I find a little discrediting to the claims but someone on here said their lawyers may have urged them not to. This particular article also says the dash cams did not record the incident and that the FBI chose to use the "most clear video". Hmmmmm..... ETA the article... duh http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/post_6.html[/quot...
How convenient they say the dash cams didnt record the shooting. I thought the dash cams were on at all times? | |
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | Random - but it makes me happy that this thread is still making the front page. The reasons LaVoy were shot are important, the least we can do is not let his death be in vain. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | This has been so lost in the national news I hope someone here will share updates as they become available. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | All I want is the truth....the irrefutable TRUTH. I don't want heresay, rumor, or innuendo. I just want facts, not opinions or suspicions.
Once that's established, I want to see justice served. I'm just waiting, watching, and listening, and I hope most Americans are as well. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | This is interesting. From Sheriff David Clark. http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/02/03/a-rational-case-in-defense-of-ammon-bundy-and-the-oregon-occupation-sheriff-david-clarke/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Here is someone who has taken the BLM to task in a court of law and so far,,,has won. It's not over though. https://www.facebook.com/105477983124317/videos/230221527316628/?pnref=story | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I am curious and hopefully we can examine this and somebody knows more then I do about this. How is it OK for the "Fed's" to be harassing and searching the American Citizens of Burns in the mannor in which they are that have nothing to do with any of this? Marshal law has not been enacted but they act like it is. Isnt their behavior against the law? Also, the Sheriff there has failed in his duties and has allowed the feds to call all the shots. He is an appointed Sheriff not an elected one. Cant the people there do a recall vote? And same with the appointed Governor of Oregon ? According to reports, she is the one that has escalated this whole fiasco to the point it is. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Bear - 2016-02-09 3:06 PM All I want is the truth....the irrefutable TRUTH. I don't want heresay, rumor, or innuendo. I just want facts, not opinions or suspicions. Once that's established, I want to see justice served. I'm just waiting, watching, and listening, and I hope most Americans are as well.
I feel the same. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-02-09 1:06 PM All I want is the truth....the irrefutable TRUTH. I don't want heresay, rumor, or innuendo. I just want facts, not opinions or suspicions. Once that's established, I want to see justice served. I'm just waiting, watching, and listening, and I hope most Americans are as well.
Don't we all?! A few 'truths': 1. Lavoy never threatened anyone. 2. The individuals being held in solitary confinement never threatened anyone. 3. The citizens of Burns, OR were/are in no danger from the patriots. 4. Citizens of the U.S.A. were/are in no danger from the patriots. 5. Sheriff Ward, Judge Grasty and Governor Brown failed in their sworn duty to protect the citizens of Burns. (Duty of states being a 'buffer' to protect the people from the federal overreach). 6.The death of Lavoy was not during a 'normal traffic stop'. 7. There was no 'shootout' (return fire). 8. The Constitution is not the virus...it's the cure!
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I really want to know, what we can do now? We are all tired of this out of control over reaching rogue govt. How do we cut the head of the snake off? How do we stand up and say NO MORE?? How do we stop this? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-09 2:47 PM I really want to know, what we can do now? We are all tired of this out of control over reaching rogue govt. How do we cut the head of the snake off? How do we stand up and say NO MORE?? How do we stop this?
For today?!!! Here: https://www.facebook.com/callmegav/videos/10154251278527580/?fref=nf Let's get our patriots OUT of solitary. -- Animals in a ZOO are given rights than these men are being given. Wherever you are, make the phones ring. Here's the numbers we have now. GO!
CALL NUMBERS. - Multnomah Sheriff Admin office: 503-988-4300 - Opt 0 - OSP NW HQ: 1-503-378-3387 - Opt 0 - Portland FBI: 503 224 4181 - Opt 0 - Multnomah Sheriff - Detention: 1-503-988-3689 - Opt 0 - Multnomah Sheriff - PIO pager: 1-503-271-0226 - Multnomah County Jail: 1-503-243-7600 US Marshall's Oregon: 503-326-2209 - US District Court - Portland: 1-503-326-8000
Here's who is in jail now. We will update the numbers and the names as needed. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I hope you all take the time to listen to what Sheriff David Clark has to say on this issue. https://soundcloud.com/peoplessheriff/the-siege-in-burns-oregon-the-peoples-sheriff-010916 | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Dang...this is interesting and teilling...note the date. http://cowstates.com/2016/01/cows-01-26-16-oregon/
(The_Cure_2.jpg)
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The_Cure_2.jpg (49KB - 181 downloads)
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas |
I read this piece. Lying through their teeth, The Feds were! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Originally it was reported Sheriff Palmer was at the scene when Finicum was killed. According to this article he was not. He showed up at a different road block after hearing 2nd hand that there had been a shooting. He was photographed at this road block, which in my understanding is miles away from the scene, with a shotgun in his hand. That picture was then spread over social media and captioned as him being at the scene. At this time Sheriff Palmer is refusing to comment or interview.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/oregon_standoff_s... | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | There are many more questions than answers surrounding this complete event! | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest |
On the very day the set up and ambush muder took place. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | My husband just said the best way to turn the tables that would completely change things and put the country on it's ear is if every rancher banded together and held ALL their cattle for 1 year. Not sell a single one!! The city idiots would learn just where their beef, leather, ect. comes from and the masses would be screaming they need to help the ranchers. McDonalds, Burger King ect would be collapsing. | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-10 2:32 PM My husband just said the best way to turn the tables that would completely change things and put the country on it's ear is if every rancher banded together and held ALL their cattle for 1 year. Not sell a single one!! The city idiots would learn just where their beef, leather, ect. comes from and the masses would be screaming they need to help the ranchers. McDonalds, Burger King ect would be collapsing.
I like his way of thinking. :) I have wondered, when I read comments on articles about this, if some of the people posting have a clue about cattle ranching - not that I am an expert but I do know that beef does not just start at the grocery store. I bet if some of them couldn't belly up to the all you can eat bar or the drive through at fast food burger joints they would realize just how important protecting ranchers and farmers really is. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| ThreeCorners - 2016-02-10 1:32 PM
My husband just said the best way to turn the tables that would completely change things and put the country on it's ear is if every rancher banded together and held ALL their cattle for 1 year. Not sell a single one!! The city idiots would learn just where their beef, leather, ect. comes from and the masses would be screaming they need to help the ranchers. McDonalds, Burger King ect would be collapsing.
It's funny you post this. This morning I read an opinion from the LA Times regarding what Finicum was standing for posted on February 7th. Toward the bottom it reads "The United States economy has not depended on farmers and ranchers for a very long time." How disconnected these people truly are.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bady-malheur-ideology-20...
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | cyount2009 - 2016-02-10 1:48 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-02-10 1:32 PM My husband just said the best way to turn the tables that would completely change things and put the country on it's ear is if every rancher banded together and held ALL their cattle for 1 year. Not sell a single one!! The city idiots would learn just where their beef, leather, ect. comes from and the masses would be screaming they need to help the ranchers. McDonalds, Burger King ect would be collapsing. It's funny you post this. This morning I read an opinion from the LA Times regarding what Finicum was standing for posted on February 7th. Toward the bottom it reads "The United States economy has not depended on farmers and ranchers for a very long time." How disconnected these people truly are. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bady-malheur-ideology-20... They trully are. Funny they throw farmers in there to. Appearantly the grocery store just magically grows bags of even just potatoe chips! Cant buy a loaf of bread without farmers or even go to a salad bar!! No meat, no hamburgers, no steaks, not even a taco to be found.Not even the vegetarians would find anything to eat. Nor anything made of leather or cotton. Amazing how removed the cities are from the real world. I came back to add, appearantly someone must have educated the LA Times some because the article is gone. lol Edited by ThreeCorners 2016-02-10 1:57 PM
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 I'm not opinionated
Posts: 4597
      Location: Online | cyount2009 - 2016-02-10 12:48 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-02-10 1:32 PM My husband just said the best way to turn the tables that would completely change things and put the country on it's ear is if every rancher banded together and held ALL their cattle for 1 year. Not sell a single one!! The city idiots would learn just where their beef, leather, ect. comes from and the masses would be screaming they need to help the ranchers. McDonalds, Burger King ect would be collapsing. It's funny you post this. This morning I read an opinion from the LA Times regarding what Finicum was standing for posted on February 7th. Toward the bottom it reads "The United States economy has not depended on farmers and ranchers for a very long time." How disconnected these people truly are. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bady-malheur-ideology-20...
Don'tcha know? Food comes from the store!! | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | Sorry - could not resist
https://www.facebook.com/marvelmarisamurphy/photos/a.434419143420590.1073741829.235323959996777/463512247177946/?type=3&theater
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | How sad it is that Beyonce could make her stand with domestic terrorists and she is praised while partriots are called domestic terrorists and one is killed and others shot at. Never thought I would see this day in America. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I think we all seriously need to start a call campaign and call our state reps and congressmen and tell them we want the BLM defunded immediately and want them investigated. http://www.northernag.net/AGNews/AgNewsStories/TabId/657/ArtMID/2927/ArticleID/6052/President-Proposes-13-Billion-Budget-for-BLM-in-Fiscal-Year-2017.aspx | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest |
lol | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | live call bundy ranch.Just posted happening now.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOlrSain0lk
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-02-10 7:45 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is streaming live from the refuge...serious.
5:25PM PST -- Standoff happening NOW. David Fry and those at the refuge are surrounded by military vehicles. They managed to get a phone call out which is being passed thru to this live stream. We know little more than what's being said on the air but we feel what's happening needs to be broadcast. Warning, strong language very tense. -- Pray very hard! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOlrSain0lk&feature=youtu.be
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-10 7:55 PM
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-02-10 7:52 PM This is streaming live from the refuge...serious.
5:25PM PST -- Standoff happening NOW.
David Fry and those at the refuge are surrounded by military vehicles. They managed to get a phone call out which is being passed thru to this live stream.
We know little more than what's being said on the air but we feel what's happening needs to be broadcast. Warning, strong language very tense. -- Pray very hard!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOlrSain0lk&feature=youtu.be
Listening. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-10 8:19 PM musikmaker - 2016-02-10 7:52 PM This is streaming live from the refuge...serious.
5:25PM PST -- Standoff happening NOW.
David Fry and those at the refuge are surrounded by military vehicles. They managed to get a phone call out which is being passed thru to this live stream.
We know little more than what's being said on the air but we feel what's happening needs to be broadcast. Warning, strong language very tense. -- Pray very hard!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOlrSain0lk&feature=youtu.be
Listening.
Idk what to think...it sounds too crazy, of course, we all like to think we'd be 'cool' headed in that situation so it's real easy to judge... these 4 don't really reprsent everyone real well, however, they did it with their hearts in the right place, and keep in mind they haven't broken any 'laws', hurt anyone...and they haven't been IN the refuge,they've been sleeping in tents in the rv area. Anyhow...this from Bundy Ranch in case anyone here hasn't heard: WAKE UP AMERICA! WAKE UP WE THE PEOPLE! WAKE UP PATRIOTS! WAKE UP MILITA!IT'S TIME!!!!! CLIVEN BUNDY IS HEADING TO THE HARNEY COUNTY RESOURCE CENTER IN BURNS OREGON. Meet Cliven at the resource center, go now | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | So, what happened? | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Here is the updates.. Apparently Clive Bundy landed an they surrounded him and hes been arrested.. the other situation is still peaceful https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/?fref=ts | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cliven-bundy-arrested-in-portland-as-oregon-occupiers-say-they-will-surrender-thursday/ar-BBpnaMG?ocid=spartandhp | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | Prayers | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | This artilce is from 2012 - pretty interesting
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/01/malheur_county_targeted_for_go.html | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Interesting reads. http://annavonreitz.com/ | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | If this doesn't raise the hair on the back of your neck...you're a numb skull, literally and figuratively: "Among these indicators is the Gadsden Flag (shown) and the logo of the Oathkeepers, an organization composed of veterans and active-duty military members committed to upholding the Constitution... potentially volatile persons..." We are watching, in real time, a repeat of what happened in the USSR...yes, Russia. And Nazi Germany. And Cuba. Will you pledge allegiance to this New World Order?
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-11 9:29 AM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | New live link this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=616S8t9tek4&feature=youtu.be | |
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8696
        Location: the end of the rainbow | Let's add some fuel to the fire, here's a whole different batch of haters taking the law into their own hands. http://www.ironcountytoday.com/view/full_story/27081323/article-Washington-County-commissioner-sends-urgent-alert-to-State-Cattlemen-s-Association?instance=secondary_stories_left_column
Edited by willrodeo4food 2016-02-11 10:13 AM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | willrodeo4food - 2016-02-11 9:12 AM Let's add some fuel to the fire, here's a whole different batch of haters taking the law into their own hands. http://www.ironcountytoday.com/view/full_story/27081323/article-Washington-County-commissioner-sends-urgent-alert-to-State-Cattlemen-s-Association?instance=secondary_stories_left_column
I'm not sure who you're calling the "batch of haters taking the law into their own hands"? Depending on where a persons from, their level of education concerning our constitution and the rule of law, their expectations concerning the role of a federal governement in our lives, how they may be 'affected' personally...then it could be construed to be either group!
The cow killing has been going on in my backyard for over 20 years. The people who do this are very...weird. They're the 'dance on the rocks naked while blowed out of their minds on pschodelic drugs' type. They DO have a very sick attitude and extreme hate towards ranchers, farmers...producers of any kind. They claim to hate the 'corporate world', yet, suwa, the sierra club, earth first, etc...are the ultimate 'non-profit-corporations' who make tons of money dividing the people and sueing the federal gov't (know that a state cannot be sued...it would destroy them if they lose the ability to sue over the land) at a cost of millions of $$'s every year. It's a racket. So, yeah...I would definitely say 'they' are the "batch of haters taking the law into their own hands". | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Are you all listening to the live stream? David is melting down. Lord please give David wisdom. Suicide by cop is not the way David.
Edited by ThreeCorners 2016-02-11 12:04 PM
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | Did they cut the livefeed or is it my internet connection acting up. Didn't sound like it was going well with David. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | cruise - 2016-02-11 12:04 PM Did they cut the livefeed or is it my internet connection acting up. Didn't sound like it was going well with David.
Just refresh your feed page. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-11 11:03 AM Are you all listening to the live stream? David is melting down. Lord please give David wisdom. Suicide by cop is not the way David. He's sadly holding a gun to his own head...I had to turn the volumne way down and walk away. He's not doing anyone any good...especially himself. He's tired, he's scared. God have mercy.
David Fry, the last holdout at the refuge, has walked out and is now in FBI custody. It was a tense final hour as David contemplated suicide. He was especially upset over abuses by the federal government, such as our tax dollars being used to fund abortions. Regardless of what one thinks about David personally, his frustrations with the tyranny of the federal government are felt by many, many Americans across the nation.
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-11 12:59 PM
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBgPgjYqe0g | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | This is a good FB page. Please everyone go like it. They are also calling for everyone to call to have the Harney Co. Sheriff investigated. https://www.facebook.com/OwO-433520276841306/
Edited by ThreeCorners 2016-02-11 3:10 PM
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Updates? Any gunfire? Arrests? | |
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  The Original Cyber Bartender
          Location: Washington | Hallelujah! | |
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Expert
Posts: 2121
  Location: The Great Northwest | Day 41 and the occupation/stand-off is over. It is not over in the courts. Americans are not losing their rights of liberty. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | They're saying that the whole thing was David Fry effing with the fbi...looking back, I see it. Okay. I have to ask...did Oregon give up their states rights? Are they now a 'federal enclave'? Why else did they not arrest Cliven in Nevada? Could it be because Nevada hasn't 'welcomed' the fed to take over...yet? When you google Federal Enclave: In United States law, a "federal enclave" is a parcel of federal property within a state that is under the "Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction of the United States." When you google the rest? Lol...try it out...I've tried really hard to not go there...and here I am. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7
The term “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States”, as used in this title, includes:(1 ) The high seas, any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State, and any vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State. (2 ) Any vessel registered, licensed, or enrolled under the laws of the United States, and being on a voyage upon the waters of any of the Great Lakes, or any of the waters connecting them, or upon the Saint Lawrence River where the same constitutes the International Boundary Line. (3 ) Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building. (4 ) Any island, rock, or key containing deposits of guano, which may, at the discretion of the President, be considered as appertaining to the United States. (5 ) Any aircraft belonging in whole or in part to the United States, or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or any State, Territory, district, or possession thereof, while such aircraft is in flight over the high seas, or over any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State. (6 ) Any vehicle used or designed for flight or navigation in space and on the registry of the United States pursuant to the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, Including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies and the Convention on Registration of Objects Launched into Outer Space, while that vehicle is in flight, which is from the moment when all external doors are closed on Earth following embarkation until the moment when one such door is opened on Earth for disembarkation or in the case of a forced landing, until the competent authorities take over the responsibility for the vehicle and for persons and property aboard. (7 ) Any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to an offense by or against a national of the United States. (8 ) To the extent permitted by international law, any foreign vessel during a voyage having a scheduled departure from or arrival in the United States with respect to an offense committed by or against a national of the United States. (9 ) With respect to offenses committed by or against a national of the United States as that term is used in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act— (A ) the premises of United States diplomatic, consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States, including the buildings, parts of buildings, and land appurtenant or ancillary thereto or used for purposes of those missions or entities, irrespective of ownership; and (B ) residences in foreign States and the land appurtenant or ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of those missions or entities or used by United States personnel assigned to those missions or entities. Nothing in this paragraph shall be deemed to supersede any treaty or international agreement with which this paragraph conflicts. This paragraph does not apply with respect to an offense committed by a person described in section 3261(a) of this title. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 685; July 12, 1952, ch. 695, 66 Stat. 589; Pub. L. 97–96, §?6, Dec. 21, 1981, 95 Stat. 1210; Pub. L. 98–473, title II, §?1210, Oct. 12, 1984, 98 Stat. 2164; Pub. L. 103–322, title XII, §?120002, Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2021; Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, §?804, Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 377. )
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Some more pieces to the puzzle as to how Hammonds were ordered back to jail. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/04/unbelievable-update-oregon-bundy-militia-standoff-the-federal-prosecutor-at-the-heart-of-the-hammond-family-problem/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-02-11 9:12 PM They're saying that the whole thing was David Fry effing with the fbi...looking back, I see it.
Okay. I have to ask...did Oregon give up their states rights? Are they now a 'federal enclave'?
Why else did they not arrest Cliven in Nevada?
Could it be because Nevada hasn't 'welcomed' the fed to take over...yet?
When you google Federal Enclave:
In United States law, a "federal enclave" is a parcel of federal property within a state that is under the "Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction of the United States."
When you google the rest? Lol...try it out...I've tried really hard to not go there...and here I am.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7
The term “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States”, as used in this title, includes:
(1 )
The high seas, any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State, and any vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.
(2 )
Any vessel registered, licensed, or enrolled under the laws of the United States, and being on a voyage upon the waters of any of the Great Lakes, or any of the waters connecting them, or upon the Saint Lawrence River where the same constitutes the International Boundary Line.
(3 )
Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building.
(4 )
Any island, rock, or key containing deposits of guano, which may, at the discretion of the President, be considered as appertaining to the United States.
(5 )
Any aircraft belonging in whole or in part to the United States, or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or any State, Territory, district, or possession thereof, while such aircraft is in flight over the high seas, or over any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State.
(6 )
Any vehicle used or designed for flight or navigation in space and on the registry of the United States pursuant to the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, Including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies and the Convention on Registration of Objects Launched into Outer Space, while that vehicle is in flight, which is from the moment when all external doors are closed on Earth following embarkation until the moment when one such door is opened on Earth for disembarkation or in the case of a forced landing, until the competent authorities take over the responsibility for the vehicle and for persons and property aboard.
(7 )
Any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to an offense by or against a national of the United States.
(8 )
To the extent permitted by international law, any foreign vessel during a voyage having a scheduled departure from or arrival in the United States with respect to an offense committed by or against a national of the United States.
(9 ) With respect to offenses committed by or against a national of the United States as that term is used in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act—
(A )
the premises of United States diplomatic, consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States, including the buildings, parts of buildings, and land appurtenant or ancillary thereto or used for purposes of those missions or entities, irrespective of ownership; and
(B )
residences in foreign States and the land appurtenant or ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of those missions or entities or used by United States personnel assigned to those missions or entities.
Nothing in this paragraph shall be deemed to supersede any treaty or international agreement with which this paragraph conflicts. This paragraph does not apply with respect to an offense committed by a person described in section 3261(a) of this title.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 685; July 12, 1952, ch. 695, 66 Stat. 589; Pub. L. 97–96, §?6, Dec. 21, 1981, 95 Stat. 1210; Pub. L. 98–473, title II, §?1210, Oct. 12, 1984, 98 Stat. 2164; Pub. L. 103–322, title XII, §?120002, Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2021; Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, §?804, Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 377. )
I havent had coffe yet so excuse me but, what is this? Can you explain this? Also, does this have anything to do with that? http://www.resurrecttherepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Oregon-House-Resolution-Rescinding-the-14th-Amendment-Ratification-due-to-Fraud-and-Usurpation.pdf | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-12 6:24 AM Some more pieces to the puzzle as to how Hammonds were ordered back to jail. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/04/unbelievable-update-oregon-bundy-militia-standoff-the-federal-prosecutor-at-the-heart-of-the-hammond-family-problem/
That link didn't work...? Here's an interesting response from KrisAnne Hall concerning the sheriffs associations statement...she nails it. http://krisannehall.com/response-to-oregon-sheriff-association-press-release/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | http://www.constitution.org/juris/fedjur1.htm | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/02/11/3748602/koch-brothers-f... Another piece of the puzzle
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! |
This is great news, I was aware that Ken was working on it, I have to laugh at the slant, though! lol. The political network of the conservative billionaires Charles and David Koch signaled last week that it is expanding its financial and organizational support for a coalition of anti-government activists and militants who are working to seize and sell America’s national forests, monuments, and other public lands. A few corrections: Constitutionalists are not 'anti-government', quite the opposite or more accurately 'anti-faux-government'. The States aren't trying to 'seize' lands...they simply want the equal footing as was intended. They have no intention of selling our parks...that is hilarious! Although, on a much more serious and somber note it's said that the Clinton Foundation has sold state resources to foreign interests...now that is scary.
We must be aware that the 'fear mongering campaign' by the left is in full swing...they have everything to lose, their donor base and their ability to sue the federal government. They will be out of business! That is the best news of all! You can't beleive the 'connections' between these groups and our judges, attorneys, politicians...it is the most corrupt happenings ever. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Yes...the pieces keep 'falling in to place': While taking up occupancy of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, protesters reportedly gained access to sensitive information stored on the computers there, revealing sinister plans by the BLM to confiscate privately owned land with uranium reserves before auctioning it off to foreign interests that have donated to the Clinton Foundation, according a source who requested anonymity. In an effort to suppress this information, the FBI is believed to be conducting a nationwide warrant roundup of protesters and independent journalists involved in the recent protests and standoffs against the federal government. A total of 86 people, including Bundy, are believed to be on the FBI’s roundup list and could subsequently be arrested for their “crimes.” http://www.newstarget.com/2016-02-11-exclusive-fbi-sting-to-arrest-86-americans-in-massive-blm-cover-up.html | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2016-02-12 10:50 AM
Yes...the pieces keep 'falling in to place':While taking up occupancy of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, protesters reportedly gained access to sensitive information stored on the computers there, revealing sinister plans by the BLM to confiscate privately owned land with uranium reserves before auctioning it off to foreign interests that have donated to the Clinton Foundation, according a source who requested anonymity. In an effort to suppress this information, the FBI is believed to be conducting a nationwide warrant roundup of protesters and independent journalists involved in the recent protests and standoffs against the federal government. A total of 86 people, including Bundy, are believed to be on the FBI’s roundup list and could subsequently be arrested for their “crimes.”http://www.newstarget.com/2016-02-11-exclusive-fbi-sting-to-arrest-86-americans-in-massive-blm-cover-up.html
And what 'crimes' would these eighty some individuals be charged with? | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Oh geezz, check this out.The more I read and connect the dots the more disgusted I get. https://shastalantern.net/2016/01/power-corrupts-absolutely-ties-that-bind-run-deep-with-aiken-family-in-hammond-case/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-02-12 7:43 AM ThreeCorners - 2016-02-12 6:24 AM Some more pieces to the puzzle as to how Hammonds were ordered back to jail. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/04/unbelievable-update-oregon-bundy-militia-standoff-the-federal-prosecutor-at-the-heart-of-the-hammond-family-problem/ That link didn't work...?
Here's an interesting response from KrisAnne Hall concerning the sheriffs associations statement...she nails it.
http://krisannehall.com/response-to-oregon-sheriff-association-press-release/
Try this. Very interesting when you get the dots connected. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/04/unbelievable-update-oregon-bundy-militia-standoff-the-federal-prosecutor-at-the-heart-of-the-hammond-family-problem/ | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | I have come to the conclusion we need laws that REQUIRE each and every public servent ( L.E.O ) and government office must complete classes on the constitution and the constitution should be taught and required in all high schools and colleges and should be required as part of the general ed for each and every degree. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-12 2:14 PM Oh geezz, check this out.The more I read and connect the dots the more disgusted I get. https://shastalantern.net/2016/01/power-corrupts-absolutely-ties-that-bind-run-deep-with-aiken-family-in-hammond-case/
Me too...there's too many dots! I'm really disgusted with what's going on in our country...then I read the updates from friends attending meetings at the Utah Legislative sessions and I DO feel optimistic! I bug the hell outta those I don't know (probably those I do, too! haha). Phil Lyman posted a pic of his lapel...with a piece of blue tarp (they were given at Lavoy's funeral) and an American flag pin that we all got from Ken Ivory...love it! There are some good folks standing up for our country, our rights and the states rights we've been long denied. Unfortunately, the majority of Americans do not grasp the importance and the possible repercussions concerning the ownership of land. It's the single most important sign of freedom and liberty anywhere on this earth! If the federal gov't succeeds in claiming these lands? Our Nation, as we thought we knew it to be, is over. And it won't be pretty. One step at a time...that's how 'they' operate. Slowly, insidiously and coldly. God Bless. This is from https://www.facebook.com/CitizensForConstitutionalFreedom.NEWS/photos/a.1649978758609487.1073741830.1648792115394818/1661534577453905/?type=3&fref=nf TAKE ACTION - Contact Representative Peter DeFazio A left-wing US Congressman from Oregon needs to hear from us. Peter DeFazio is laughing it up over the incarceration of Cliven Bundy and the citizens who engaged in civil disobedience in both Bunkerville and Burns. DeFazio recently told the media that he is calling for "tough prosecution" of Cliven and the others. “I am very pleased that the federal authorities finally acted to arrest Mr. Bundy. Unlike tens of thousands of ranchers across the West who get an incredibly sweet deal on federal lands, he’s refused to pay his fees, grazed illegally in protected habitat and threatened federal agents himself and with his friends with guns. He should have been prosecuted two years ago, and Malheur wouldn’t have happened. But he thought that he had a way forward and he taught his son, ‘Pull out the guns, the feds back down,’ Well, finally, the feds didn’t back down.” DeFazio calls those of us who support Cliven and the occupiers "insurrectionists" and said that the federal government needs to "get much more aggressive against insurrectionists on the radical fringe.” He's talking about us. So I have taken the time to express my objections to Peter DeFazio and I invite you to do the same. You can call his Washington Office at: 202-225-6416. Oregon office numbers include - Coos Bay: 541-269-2609, Eugene: 541-465-6732 or Roseburg: 541-440-3523. You can also email him at: http://defazio.house.gov/contact/email-peter However, his server won't accept your email unless you enter a zip code from within his congressional distric. You can use this one from Springfield: 97477-8807 You are welcome to use your own words or use the text from the message that I sent to him. You may certainly speak firmly, but please do not make any physical threats of any kind. Our actions are and always will be peaceful. Thanks, Jake - - - Mr. DeFazio, I find your recent comments about Cliven Bundy and the American citizens who support him to be offensive and appalling. You stated that Cliven and the individuals who participated in civil disobedience at the Harney County Resource Center should be "vigorously prosecuted”. You also said that the federal government should "get much more aggressive against insurrectionists on the radical fringe.” What you consider to be a "radical fringe", I consider to be "patriotic Americans". We love our country. Many of us, including our forefathers, have bled to defend the right of left-wing socialists such as yourself to spew your anti-American rhetoric. This nation was built on the foundation of the US Constitution. Just as you have a right to express yourself, as ignorant as that expression may be, we also have the right to express ourselves. When we see our government usurping powers and authorities which rightly belong to the states and the people themselves, it is our right and our duty to speak out. You say that you support the right of free speech, but you call people who exercise the first amendment "radicals" and advocate the use of government to silence them. You say that you support the right to assemble, but you call those who assembled in Bunkerville and Burns a pack of "insurrectionists" and support using militarized federal goons to bust up their assemblies and throw them in prison. You say that you support the right to bear arms, but that isn't completely true - is it, Peter? No, you have no qualms about federal agents not only bearing arms, but using them to murder innocent citizens such as LaVoy Finicum and slaughtering an entire compound of innocent men, women and children in Waco, Texas by shooting them to keep them inside their building until every last one burned alive. But what of the peaceful Americans who gathered in Burns bearing arms who never fired a single shot even when they were repeatedly fired upon by federal agents? You say they are "domestic terrorists". You, sir, are a hypocrite and an enemy of the American people. Your goals of enacting unconstitutional legislation to turn our republic into a European-style democratic socialist state is both shocking and repugnant to millions of Americans all across this country. You, sir, are a traitor to the American people and to our way of life. For now, you have succeeded in killing LaVoy, in jailing Cliven and in scattering some of the patriotic Americans who assembled together to demand a redress of grievances - a right guaranteed to us in the Bill of Rights. But you have no idea what you've done. You have awakened an angry and determined groundswell of citizens who are fed up with out-of-touch and unaccountable bureaucrats like you who think you are gods on Mt. Olympus, hurling thunderbolts down at the ignorant masses below. We are coming for you, Peter; we are coming for all of you - not through force of arms or acts of physical aggression. We are, and always will be, peaceful citizens. Our mouths and our pens are mightier than the sword and they are the weapons which we will use to defeat your radical ideologies. We have the providence of the Almighty behind us - He who is the author of our freedoms and the One who will fight our battles for us. You have trampled upon the liberties with which He has endowed us. And God will not be mocked. I don't expect a response from you. I know that you are set in your ways and firm in your path. But know this, Peter: so are we. And the paths of our competing visions for America are going to cross soon enough. We will not be intimidated and we will not be silenced. WE are true Americans. With devotion to the US Constitution, [Insert Your Own Name] | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2016-02-12 11:31 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-12 10:50 AM Yes...the pieces keep 'falling in to place':
While taking up occupancy of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, protesters reportedly gained access to sensitive information stored on the computers there, revealing sinister plans by the BLM to confiscate privately owned land with uranium reserves before auctioning it off to foreign interests that have donated to the Clinton Foundation, according a source who requested anonymity.
In an effort to suppress this information, the FBI is believed to be conducting a nationwide warrant roundup of protesters and independent journalists involved in the recent protests and standoffs against the federal government. A total of 86 people, including Bundy, are believed to be on the FBI’s roundup list and could subsequently be arrested for their “crimes.”
http://www.newstarget.com/2016-02-11-exclusive-fbi-sting-to-arrest-86-americans-in-massive-blm-cover-up.html
And what 'crimes' would these eighty some individuals be charged with?
Well, it's taken them 2 years to dig deep enough and manipulate things to this point. The courts are theirs...so it's a 'slam dunk' unless the defendants can use article 3 courts. The charges are pretty shakey I think. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | musikmaker - 2016-02-11 7:12 PM
They're saying that the whole thing was David Fry effing with the fbi...looking back, I see it. Okay. I have to ask...did Oregon give up their states rights? Are they now a 'federal enclave'? Why else did they not arrest Cliven in Nevada? Could it be because Nevada hasn't 'welcomed' the fed to take over...yet? When you google Federal Enclave:In United States law, a "federal enclave" is a parcel of federal property within a state that is under the "Special Maritime and Territorial Jurisdiction of the United States."When you google the rest? Lol...try it out...I've tried really hard to not go there...and here I am. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7The term “special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States”, as used in this title, includes: (1 ) The high seas, any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State, and any vessel belonging in whole or in part to the United States or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or of any State, Territory, District, or possession thereof, when such vessel is within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State. (2 ) Any vessel registered, licensed, or enrolled under the laws of the United States, and being on a voyage upon the waters of any of the Great Lakes, or any of the waters connecting them, or upon the Saint Lawrence River where the same constitutes the International Boundary Line. (3 ) Any lands reserved or acquired for the use of the United States, and under the exclusive or concurrent jurisdiction thereof, or any place purchased or otherwise acquired by the United States by consent of the legislature of the State in which the same shall be, for the erection of a fort, magazine, arsenal, dockyard, or other needful building. (4 ) Any island, rock, or key containing deposits of guano, which may, at the discretion of the President, be considered as appertaining to the United States. (5 ) Any aircraft belonging in whole or in part to the United States, or any citizen thereof, or to any corporation created by or under the laws of the United States, or any State, Territory, district, or possession thereof, while such aircraft is in flight over the high seas, or over any other waters within the admiralty and maritime jurisdiction of the United States and out of the jurisdiction of any particular State. (6 ) Any vehicle used or designed for flight or navigation in space and on the registry of the United States pursuant to the Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, Including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies and the Convention on Registration of Objects Launched into Outer Space, while that vehicle is in flight, which is from the moment when all external doors are closed on Earth following embarkation until the moment when one such door is opened on Earth for disembarkation or in the case of a forced landing, until the competent authorities take over the responsibility for the vehicle and for persons and property aboard. (7 ) Any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to an offense by or against a national of the United States. (8 ) To the extent permitted by international law, any foreign vessel during a voyage having a scheduled departure from or arrival in the United States with respect to an offense committed by or against a national of the United States. (9 ) With respect to offenses committed by or against a national of the United States as that term is used in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act— (A ) the premises of United States diplomatic, consular, military or other United States Government missions or entities in foreign States, including the buildings, parts of buildings, and land appurtenant or ancillary thereto or used for purposes of those missions or entities, irrespective of ownership; and (B ) residences in foreign States and the land appurtenant or ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of those missions or entities or used by United States personnel assigned to those missions or entities. Nothing in this paragraph shall be deemed to supersede any treaty or international agreement with which this paragraph conflicts. This paragraph does not apply with respect to an offense committed by a person described in section 3261(a) of this title. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 685; July 12, 1952, ch. 695, 66 Stat. 589; Pub. L. 97–96, §?6, Dec. 21, 1981, 95 Stat. 1210; Pub. L. 98–473, title II, §?1210, Oct. 12, 1984, 98 Stat. 2164; Pub. L. 103–322, title XII, §?120002, Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2021; Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, §?804, Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 377. )
Here's an interview that might help people understand this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd0qz4tNEUA | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys? | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | Vickie - 2016-02-12 6:23 PM Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys?
If I understand this correctly Bundy said that the grazing permit payment should go to the State not Federal Government. So basically the Federal Government isn't owed any money at all. | |
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 pressure dripper
Posts: 8696
        Location: the end of the rainbow | Vickie - 2016-02-12 4:23 PM
Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys?
I personally believe Bundy should have been charged a long time ago. Did anyone notice how few Nevada ranchers backed Bundy in the first go around. The percentage was pretty low. And Nevada has the most federal land in the nation. | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| Douglas J Gordon - 2016-02-12 6:52 PM
Vickie - 2016-02-12 6:23 PM Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys?
If I understand this correctly Bundy said that the grazing permit payment should go to the State not Federal Government. So basically the Federal Government isn't owed any money at all.
Except He did not pay the state either. | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | willrodeo4food - 2016-02-12 6:53 PM Vickie - 2016-02-12 4:23 PM Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys? I personally believe Bundy should have been charged a long time ago. Did anyone notice how few Nevada ranchers backed Bundy in the first go around. The percentage was pretty low. And Nevada has the most federal land in the nation.
And now this 28 page thread of incessant links, etc has come full circle.....We should remember that there are always two (or more) sides to every story.....I posted this about the Bundys and the occupation 14 days ago......
They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on .....
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group. "Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | I'm not persay a Bundy fan but I am a fan of what they are standing for and I'm not a fan of the federal government pushing ranchers off of their land.
This is what it's about. From Ammon Bundy Feb 12 2016 - PLEASE SHARE I would like to thank the hundreds of thousands of supporters across this great country who understand what is reall...y going on. Thank you for your thoughts; thank you for looking beyond the headlines and researching the truth. And most of all thank you for your continual prayers. For several decades federal agencies have been taking ranches, mines, properties, and forests all over the United States. They remove the rightful owners in the name of government and begin using the property for their own benefit. Through these actions federal agencies have destroyed the economies of hundreds of counties leaving the people with very little to survive on. Those who stand up to them, like the Hammonds and my father Cliven Bundy, are prosecuted in federal court and thrown into prison. Most of these ranches, mines, properties, were established well over a hundred years ago long before the US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service were even thought of. The Constitution of the United States restricts federal government from owning mass amounts of land inside an established state. It also does not give authority for federal agencies to purchase land inside the states without permission from the state legislatures. Federal agencies refuse to recognize the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. They openly and blatantly break the law and put the people’s liberty at risk by doing so. This is why we made a hard stand at the refuge. Our statement is this: The land belongs to the people, not government. Government officials must follow the laws people have placed upon them. Liberty by definition is freedom from arbitrary or despotic government control. Let us learn from the lessons of the past. We must get our government in control and back to benefiting the people. If we can do this, we may prosper as a nation once again and pass freedom on to our children. With respect and love, Ammon Bundy. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Vickie - 2016-02-12 4:23 PM
Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys?
The issue with the ranchers not paying their grazing fees is this. How would you feel about paying for something for 6 years and not be allowed to use it or at a arbitrary lesser number? That's what has been happening. The feds took land they didn't own and had no right to hold then sold the rights to it back to the ranchers. LaVoy paid his grazing fees for a parcel of land he OWNED the grazing rights to. He purchased these rights from the previous owner of his land. The BLM took the land and made him pay for the grazing rights he already owned. Then they kept him from grazing it for 6 years. Hammonds were fined $400,000 and got 5 years in federal prison for an infraction that caused less than $200 damage or actually improved the land that was burned AND they were prosecuted as terrorists. Yet the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres of private land and not get fined, prosecuted or even a black mark in their personnel file. You think that's fair?
NJJ it IS really funny (not) that with all the links and c & p that have been made available in the spirit of education, some of you haven't read any of it.  | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | Nevertooold - 2016-02-12 8:41 PM I'm not persay a Bundy fan but I am a fan of what they are standing for and I'm not a fan of the federal government pushing ranchers off of their land.
This is what it's about.
From Ammon Bundy Feb 12 2016 - PLEASE SHARE
I would like to thank the hundreds of thousands of supporters across this great country who understand what is reall...y going on. Thank you for your thoughts; thank you for looking beyond the headlines and researching the truth. And most of all thank you for your continual prayers.
For several decades federal agencies have been taking ranches, mines, properties, and forests all over the United States. They remove the rightful owners in the name of government and begin using the property for their own benefit. Through these actions federal agencies have destroyed the economies of hundreds of counties leaving the people with very little to survive on.
Those who stand up to them, like the Hammonds and my father Cliven Bundy, are prosecuted in federal court and thrown into prison.
Most of these ranches, mines, properties, were established well over a hundred years ago long before the US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service were even thought of.
The Constitution of the United States restricts federal government from owning mass amounts of land inside an established state. It also does not give authority for federal agencies to purchase land inside the states without permission from the state legislatures. Federal agencies refuse to recognize the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. They openly and blatantly break the law and put the people’s liberty at risk by doing so.
This is why we made a hard stand at the refuge. Our statement is this: The land belongs to the people, not government. Government officials must follow the laws people have placed upon them. Liberty by definition is freedom from arbitrary or despotic government control. Let us learn from the lessons of the past. We must get our government in control and back to benefiting the people. If we can do this, we may prosper as a nation once again and pass freedom on to our children.
With respect and love,
Ammon Bundy.
I guess that is a good way to spin it....but what about the forgotten facts that legal dispute with Cliven Bundy centered around UNPAID grazing fees.......
That dispute started when Bundy declined to renew his permit for cattle grazing on BLM lands because he didn't like the changes in the rules (kind of like trying to tell your landlord you don't agree with his rent so you don't pay it). BUT he continued to graze his cattle on public lands without a permit. This went on for YEARS and he didn't pay any fees...... | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | OregonBR - 2016-02-12 8:52 PM Vickie - 2016-02-12 4:23 PM Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys? The issue with the ranchers not paying their grazing fees is this. How would you feel about paying for something for 6 years and not be allowed to use it or at a arbitrary lesser number? That's what has been happening. The feds took land they didn't own and had no right to hold then sold the rights to it back to the ranchers. LaVoy paid his grazing fees for a parcel of land he OWNED the grazing rights to. He purchased these rights from the previous owner of his land. The BLM took the land and made him pay for the grazing rights he already owned. Then they kept him from grazing it for 6 years. Hammonds were fined $400,000 and got 5 years in federal prison for an infraction that caused less than $200 damage or actually improved the land that was burned AND they were prosecuted as terrorists. Yet the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres of private land and not get fined, prosecuted or even a black mark in their personnel file. You think that's fair? NJJ it IS really funny (not ) that with all the links and c & p that have been made available in the spirit of education, some of you haven't read any of it. 
I agree that there has been a LOT of posts of links and "cut & paste" and a lot of it was from self serving and VERY biased web sites...... you are the ones beating the "dead horse".........
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | "We must dispel myths surrounding protest". by the Capital Press Newspaper published in the northwest. It's a farm and ranch oriented paper.
http://www.capitalpress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2016160219969
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | NJJ - 2016-02-12 7:00 PM
OregonBR - 2016-02-12 8:52 PM Vickie - 2016-02-12 4:23 PM Do you all really condone Cliven Bundy running cattle on public land and refusing to pay rent? If you didn't pay rent on a house what would happen? If you took up arms to fight the eviction would you expect people to support you? Think about who you are putting up there as your heros. If your tenant wouldn't pay rent and pulled a gun on you when you went to collect would you be as nice as the government has treated the Bundys? The issue with the ranchers not paying their grazing fees is this. How would you feel about paying for something for 6 years and not be allowed to use it or at a arbitrary lesser number? That's what has been happening. The feds took land they didn't own and had no right to hold then sold the rights to it back to the ranchers. LaVoy paid his grazing fees for a parcel of land he OWNED the grazing rights to. He purchased these rights from the previous owner of his land. The BLM took the land and made him pay for the grazing rights he already owned. Then they kept him from grazing it for 6 years. Hammonds were fined $400,000 and got 5 years in federal prison for an infraction that caused less than $200 damage or actually improved the land that was burned AND they were prosecuted as terrorists. Yet the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres of private land and not get fined, prosecuted or even a black mark in their personnel file. You think that's fair? NJJ it IS really funny (not ) that with all the links and c & p that have been made available in the spirit of education, some of you haven't read any of it. 
I agree that there has been a LOT of posts of links and "cut & paste" and a lot of it was from self serving and VERY biased web sites...... you are the ones beating the "dead horse".........    
REALLY!!?? You have to even go there? It's because the establishment news outlets wouldn't know real news if it bit them. They are owned BY the liberal establishment.
Edited by OregonBR 2016-02-12 9:06 PM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-02-12 7:54 PM Nevertooold - 2016-02-12 8:41 PM I'm not persay a Bundy fan but I am a fan of what they are standing for and I'm not a fan of the federal government pushing ranchers off of their land.
This is what it's about.
From Ammon Bundy Feb 12 2016 - PLEASE SHARE
I would like to thank the hundreds of thousands of supporters across this great country who understand what is reall...y going on. Thank you for your thoughts; thank you for looking beyond the headlines and researching the truth. And most of all thank you for your continual prayers.
For several decades federal agencies have been taking ranches, mines, properties, and forests all over the United States. They remove the rightful owners in the name of government and begin using the property for their own benefit. Through these actions federal agencies have destroyed the economies of hundreds of counties leaving the people with very little to survive on.
Those who stand up to them, like the Hammonds and my father Cliven Bundy, are prosecuted in federal court and thrown into prison.
Most of these ranches, mines, properties, were established well over a hundred years ago long before the US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service were even thought of.
The Constitution of the United States restricts federal government from owning mass amounts of land inside an established state. It also does not give authority for federal agencies to purchase land inside the states without permission from the state legislatures. Federal agencies refuse to recognize the Constitution as the supreme law of the land. They openly and blatantly break the law and put the people’s liberty at risk by doing so.
This is why we made a hard stand at the refuge. Our statement is this: The land belongs to the people, not government. Government officials must follow the laws people have placed upon them. Liberty by definition is freedom from arbitrary or despotic government control. Let us learn from the lessons of the past. We must get our government in control and back to benefiting the people. If we can do this, we may prosper as a nation once again and pass freedom on to our children.
With respect and love,
Ammon Bundy.
I guess that is a good way to spin it....but what about the forgotten facts that legal dispute with Cliven Bundy centered around UNPAID grazing fees.......
That dispute started when Bundy declined to renew his permit for cattle grazing on BLM lands because he didn't like the changes in the rules (kind of like trying to tell your landlord you don't agree with his rent so you don't pay it). BUT he continued to graze his cattle on public lands without a permit. This went on for YEARS and he didn't pay any fees......
I'm pretty dan** sure that the Bundy's aren't 'spinning it', they are living it. For all of us. I think it's pretty interesting that the divide has now affected ranchers, farmers...this country is so divided. How did that happen? There are ranchers who were never targeted, farmers who have accepted lots of 'farm aid'...they are protecting their 'cash cow'. They are NOT going to side with the Constitution! The Bundy's did...and I have the utmost respect for them. If others don't? Well, I guess I must ask why not? Are they just into it for themselves? They sure aren't into it for the Ntion. Period. Read the Constitution! It's ALL there!
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | I have family in Nevada and the BLM have been pimping them for years as they are surrounded by BLM land and the BLM wants the land they own. The BLM are nothing but bullies and an unconstitutional arm of the federal government. Like I said...I'm not a fan of Bundy but I am a fan of all the ranchers that have played by the BLM's rules and all they keep getting is screwed. When you pay for a lease and then the landlord keeps telling you every year you can't use it or you have to graze less cattle on it for the same rent..I think you would be a little ticked also..
I'm old so I won't see what the end result of the government over reach and I hope others that are ignoring this enjoy what you're going to get.
It doesn't tick you off that Black Lives Matter can burn, loot and shut down interstates and bridges and call for the deaths of police but a handful of ranchers fighting for their livelihood are terrorists and need to be arrested is okay? We are doomed. Might as well hand over everything you own and ask for your uniform.
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I dare anyone to watch this...Unfiltered. Stuff you haven't seen yet. If you can watch this and still ve on the fence? Well, let me just say that out west the fences are all barbed wire...gets a little 'rough'...no juevos, you sit too long...comphrende? lol TONIGHT: 'A DAY AT BUNDY'S' My film about the happenings that took place in Nevada 2014 premieres on NewsmaxTV tonight at 9pm ET. Repeats at midnight ET. See what REALLY happened that day. Go to NewsmaxTV.com for channel listings or to watch online in real time. You can buy it here, too, instead of waiting: http://TONIGHT: 'A DAY AT BUNDY'S' My film about the happenings that took place in Nevada 2014 premieres on NewsmaxTV tonight at 9pm ET. Repeats at midnight ET. See what REALLY happened that day. Go to NewsmaxTV.com for channel listings or to watch online in real time.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | I think there is a growing movement against government tyranny and overreach. Since I don't have a lot of familiarity with what these ranchers are dealing with, I'm just sitting back and watching the developments.
It's hard to find objective, unbiased coverage of this. I love seeing any backlash against any government overreach and any exposure of government tyranny.
Did Bundy refuse to pay the rent? Why, specifically?
Was Finicum actually murdered? Where's the autopsy results? Did the family have a 2nd autopsy done? If so, why are they keeping this silent?
Where are the politicians? Where is the national media coverage? They are quick to put cops under the spotlight when some thug is shot by cops, but when a guy like Finicum is gunned down, it's barely even mentioned.
At the very least they should be demanding an investigation to settle this and put it to rest.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Bear - 2016-02-13 8:56 AM
I think there is a growing movement against government tyranny and overreach. Since I don't have a lot of familiarity with what these ranchers are dealing with, I'm just sitting back and watching the developments.
It's hard to find objective, unbiased coverage of this. I love seeing any backlash against any government overreach and any exposure of government tyranny.
Did Bundy refuse to pay the rent? Why, specifically?
Was Finicum actually murdered? Where's the autopsy results? Did the family have a 2nd autopsy done? If so, why are they keeping this silent?
Where are the politicians? Where is the national media coverage? They are quick to put cops under the spotlight when some thug is shot by cops, but when a guy like Finicum is gunned down, it's barely even mentioned.
At the very least they should be demanding an investigation to settle this and put it to rest.
The absence of Main Stream Media Coverage in regards to this event is telling.
Also, the lack of Public Statements from Local, State or Federal Politicians reveals there is something in this event that The Pols do not want publicized.
While perhaps I question these folks' methods, I stand by their very right to question The Federal Government in regards to their actions! And from my individual perspective, the 'questioning' of The Feds is what scaring the Feds!
Nowhere in the Constitution, is there any Constitution Authority pertaining to The BLM, Federal Forest Service, or owning land in the amounts The Feds have.
Historical research reveals that The BLM is a descendant of The General Land Office whose original mandate was to DISPERSE Federally Owned to The American Public! Does the term Homesteading ring a bell with anyone here historically speaking?
My final analysis of this event along with others is that The Federal Government is rogue.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | foundation horse - 2016-02-13 9:24 AM Bear - 2016-02-13 8:56 AM I think there is a growing movement against government tyranny and overreach. Since I don't have a lot of familiarity with what these ranchers are dealing with, I'm just sitting back and watching the developments. It's hard to find objective, unbiased coverage of this. I love seeing any backlash against any government overreach and any exposure of government tyranny. Did Bundy refuse to pay the rent? Why, specifically? Was Finicum actually murdered? Where's the autopsy results? Did the family have a 2nd autopsy done? If so, why are they keeping this silent? Where are the politicians? Where is the national media coverage? They are quick to put cops under the spotlight when some thug is shot by cops, but when a guy like Finicum is gunned down, it's barely even mentioned. At the very least they should be demanding an investigation to settle this and put it to rest. The absence of Main Stream Media Coverage in regards to this event is telling. Also, the lack of Public Statements from Local, State or Federal Politicians reveals there is something in this event that The Pols do not want publicized. While perhaps I question these folks' methods, I stand by their very right to question The Federal Government in regards to their actions! And from my individual perspective, the 'questioning' of The Feds is what scaring the Feds! Nowhere in the Constitution, is there any Constitution Authority pertaining to The BLM, Federal Forest Service, or owning land in the amounts The Feds have. Historical research reveals that The BLM is a descendant of The General Land Office whose original mandate was to DISPERSE Federally Owned to The American Public! Does the term Homesteading ring a bell with anyone here historically speaking? My final analysis of this event along with others is that The Federal Government is rogue.
Excellent. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | If you don't find this scary and telling...You are really doomed and might as well hand over everything to the King..
On Friday,President Obama signed the 'Patriot Defense of Liberty Enabler Act' which is his latest in a series of Executive Orders to bring the U.S.'in compliance with United Nations Agenda 21'. The President says his plan will allow the Federal Government to 'assume control of all Federal territory in case of a National Emergency or civil disobedience' and 'enhance Jade Helm protocols'.?The act would also allow U.N. Troops to assist U.S. forces when needed on domestic soil. What do you think about the President's executive order that would allow the Federal Government to assume authority over 'all States and Territories' in the United States.Is this Obama's grab for Martial Law and a third term as President?
Edited by Nevertooold 2016-02-13 10:48 AM
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2016-02-13 8:24 AM Bear - 2016-02-13 8:56 AM I think there is a growing movement against government tyranny and overreach. Since I don't have a lot of familiarity with what these ranchers are dealing with, I'm just sitting back and watching the developments. It's hard to find objective, unbiased coverage of this. I love seeing any backlash against any government overreach and any exposure of government tyranny. Did Bundy refuse to pay the rent? Why, specifically? Was Finicum actually murdered? Where's the autopsy results? Did the family have a 2nd autopsy done? If so, why are they keeping this silent? Where are the politicians? Where is the national media coverage? They are quick to put cops under the spotlight when some thug is shot by cops, but when a guy like Finicum is gunned down, it's barely even mentioned. At the very least they should be demanding an investigation to settle this and put it to rest. The absence of Main Stream Media Coverage in regards to this event is telling. Also, the lack of Public Statements from Local, State or Federal Politicians reveals there is something in this event that The Pols do not want publicized. While perhaps I question these folks' methods, I stand by their very right to question The Federal Government in regards to their actions! And from my individual perspective, the 'questioning' of The Feds is what scaring the Feds! Nowhere in the Constitution, is there any Constitution Authority pertaining to The BLM, Federal Forest Service, or owning land in the amounts The Feds have. Historical research reveals that The BLM is a descendant of The General Land Office whose original mandate was to DISPERSE Federally Owned to The American Public! Does the term Homesteading ring a bell with anyone here historically speaking? My final analysis of this event along with others is that The Federal Government is rogue.
Contrary to popular belief, Bundy did NOT refuse to pay, they refused to accept money because they wanted him off the land. Cliven then refused to leave, he cancelled his contract with the fed, legally...you see, he found out that he wasnt required to have a contract with them in the first place as they didn't own the land, due to the Taylor Grazing Act which was basically an agreement with a 3rd party (Gov't) to help end the grazing wars out west, ranchers 'signed on' and it morphed into what it is today. The Finicums are trying to get a full investigation, I don't know about the autopsy results, as far as I can decipher they have not been released even to the family. The pickup is in a fenced lot in Portland covered with tarps. No pictures have been released. I sincerely believe that the silence is due to a botched hit. Victoria, the girl who was with Lavoy, and her family are being followed and watched, too. This is very serious and affects all Americans. Here's something pretty interesting, too: http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/02/13/the-department-of-justice-prepares-to-step-up-war-on-domestic-extremists-2/ How do I feel? Seems to me that we need to define 'government' THEN we can decide how 'extreme' we need to be. I am not anti Constitutional government, I am not 'anti-me'! Anti-FAUX-government? Hell yeah. That would include any and all executive branch (appointed-non-elected) agency or bureaucracy that maintains its own court system, its own law enforcement, makes its own rules & calls them laws that we all must obey. I'm quite certain that the faux-government are the extreme that needs to be abolished. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-02-13 10:45 AM
If you don't find this scary and telling...You are really doomed and might as well hand over everything to the King.. On Friday,President Obama signed the 'Patriot Defense of Liberty Enabler Act' which is his latest in a series of Executive Orders to bring the U.S.'in compliance with United Nations Agenda 21'. The President says his plan will allow the Federal Government to 'assume control of all Federal territory in case of a National Emergency or civil disobedience' and 'enhance Jade Helm protocols'.?The act would also allow U.N. Troops to assist U.S. forces when needed on domestic soil. What do you think about the President's executive order that would allow the Federal Government to assume authority over 'all States and Territories' in the United States.Is this Obama's grab for Martial Law and a third term as President?
The runup to martial law which would suspend elections........................ | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | It's getting real and Obama will keep his pen filled and will continue to destroy this country. Sad that everyone is so afraid of doing the right thing. Impeachment. I'm sure they are afraid of a civil war. Rather have a civil war then be a slave to our government. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| musikmaker - 2016-02-13 10:46 AM
foundation horse - 2016-02-13 8:24 AM Bear - 2016-02-13 8:56 AM I think there is a growing movement against government tyranny and overreach. Since I don't have a lot of familiarity with what these ranchers are dealing with, I'm just sitting back and watching the developments. It's hard to find objective, unbiased coverage of this. I love seeing any backlash against any government overreach and any exposure of government tyranny. Did Bundy refuse to pay the rent? Why, specifically? Was Finicum actually murdered? Where's the autopsy results? Did the family have a 2nd autopsy done? If so, why are they keeping this silent? Where are the politicians? Where is the national media coverage? They are quick to put cops under the spotlight when some thug is shot by cops, but when a guy like Finicum is gunned down, it's barely even mentioned. At the very least they should be demanding an investigation to settle this and put it to rest. The absence of Main Stream Media Coverage in regards to this event is telling. Also, the lack of Public Statements from Local, State or Federal Politicians reveals there is something in this event that The Pols do not want publicized. While perhaps I question these folks' methods, I stand by their very right to question The Federal Government in regards to their actions! And from my individual perspective, the 'questioning' of The Feds is what scaring the Feds! Nowhere in the Constitution, is there any Constitution Authority pertaining to The BLM, Federal Forest Service, or owning land in the amounts The Feds have. Historical research reveals that The BLM is a descendant of The General Land Office whose original mandate was to DISPERSE Federally Owned to The American Public! Does the term Homesteading ring a bell with anyone here historically speaking? My final analysis of this event along with others is that The Federal Government is rogue.
Contrary to popular belief, Bundy did NOT refuse to pay, they refused to accept money because they wanted him off the land. Cliven then refused to leave, he cancelled his contract with the fed, legally...you see, he found out that he wasnt required to have a contract with them in the first place as they didn't own the land, due to the Taylor Grazing Act which was basically an agreement with a 3rd party (Gov't) to help end the grazing wars out west, ranchers 'signed on' and it morphed into what it is today. The Finicums are trying to get a full investigation, I don't know about the autopsy results, as far as I can decipher they have not been released even to the family. The pickup is in a fenced lot in Portland covered with tarps. No pictures have been released. I sincerely believe that the silence is due to a botched hit. Victoria, the girl who was with Lavoy, and her family are being followed and watched, too. This is very serious and affects all Americans. Here's something pretty interesting, too: http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/02/13/the-department-of-justice-prepares-to-step-up-war-on-domestic-extremists-2/ How do I feel?Seems to me that we need to define 'government' THEN we can decide how 'extreme' we need to be. I am not anti Constitutional government, I am not 'anti-me'! Anti-FAUX-government? Hell yeah. That would include any and all executive branch (appointed-non-elected) agency or bureaucracy that maintains its own court system, its own law enforcement, makes its own rules & calls them laws that we all must obey. I'm quite certain that the faux-government are the extreme that needs to be abolished.
Thank you for bringing up that Bundy tried to pay. I read (on mainstream media, believe it or not), That Mr Bundy tried to pay the state of Arizona, the party he actually made a contract with for grazing rights. The state refused the payments so he then put the money in to escrow so that it would be available and that his legal attempts to pay we supported by the funds being available. He did not REFUSE to pay.
Ware the protests, the tee shirts supporting these people trying to defend their (OUR) rights? Where is the "Ranch lives matter"? movement, or more to the point the "US citizens lives matter"? These people harmed no one, they did not destroy the facility they occupied. My guess is that high school girl who was quoted as wanting to feel safe again, was not threatened by the protesters but the hoards of gun toting military types that flooded the area.
I had wondered why they picked that particular facility to make their stand, and have now read that it gave them access to the government computer so that they could attempt to get more information to prove their case. THAT makes a little sense to me. Access, at a low traffic facility that posed little threat to the public at large, yet Big Brother labels them domestic terrorists.
Now reading the recent Executive order signed by the POTUS takes ALL of our Constitutional rights from us people!! We should ALL be terrified and up in arms about it. Yet the mainstream (even Fox News) says NOTHING about this or other such orders which set us up for absolute government control. It is not a government of the people or by the people for quite a long time now. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest |
I went to news max and couldn't find it? I then used the search on news max and nothing came up? | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-13 12:00 PM I went to news max and couldn't find it? I then used the search on news max and nothing came up?
Looks like it was taken down. Obama has been busy between his pen and censorship. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | rodeoveteran - 2016-02-13 11:48 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-13 10:46 AM foundation horse - 2016-02-13 8:24 AM Bear - 2016-02-13 8:56 AM I think there is a growing movement against government tyranny and overreach. Since I don't have a lot of familiarity with what these ranchers are dealing with, I'm just sitting back and watching the developments. It's hard to find objective, unbiased coverage of this. I love seeing any backlash against any government overreach and any exposure of government tyranny. Did Bundy refuse to pay the rent? Why, specifically? Was Finicum actually murdered? Where's the autopsy results? Did the family have a 2nd autopsy done? If so, why are they keeping this silent? Where are the politicians? Where is the national media coverage? They are quick to put cops under the spotlight when some thug is shot by cops, but when a guy like Finicum is gunned down, it's barely even mentioned. At the very least they should be demanding an investigation to settle this and put it to rest. The absence of Main Stream Media Coverage in regards to this event is telling. Also, the lack of Public Statements from Local, State or Federal Politicians reveals there is something in this event that The Pols do not want publicized. While perhaps I question these folks' methods, I stand by their very right to question The Federal Government in regards to their actions! And from my individual perspective, the 'questioning' of The Feds is what scaring the Feds! Nowhere in the Constitution, is there any Constitution Authority pertaining to The BLM, Federal Forest Service, or owning land in the amounts The Feds have. Historical research reveals that The BLM is a descendant of The General Land Office whose original mandate was to DISPERSE Federally Owned to The American Public! Does the term Homesteading ring a bell with anyone here historically speaking? My final analysis of this event along with others is that The Federal Government is rogue. Contrary to popular belief, Bundy did NOT refuse to pay, they refused to accept money because they wanted him off the land. Cliven then refused to leave, he cancelled his contract with the fed, legally...you see, he found out that he wasnt required to have a contract with them in the first place as they didn't own the land, due to the Taylor Grazing Act which was basically an agreement with a 3rd party (Gov't) to help end the grazing wars out west, ranchers 'signed on' and it morphed into what it is today.
The Finicums are trying to get a full investigation, I don't know about the autopsy results, as far as I can decipher they have not been released even to the family. The pickup is in a fenced lot in Portland covered with tarps. No pictures have been released.
I sincerely believe that the silence is due to a botched hit. Victoria, the girl who was with Lavoy, and her family are being followed and watched, too.
This is very serious and affects all Americans. Here's something pretty interesting, too:
http://www.dcclothesline.com/2016/02/13/the-department-of-justice-prepares-to-step-up-war-on-domestic-extremists-2/
How do I feel?
Seems to me that we need to define 'government' THEN we can decide how 'extreme' we need to be. I am not anti Constitutional government, I am not 'anti-me'!
Anti-FAUX-government? Hell yeah. That would include any and all executive branch (appointed-non-elected) agency or bureaucracy that maintains its own court system, its own law enforcement, makes its own rules & calls them laws that we all must obey.
I'm quite certain that the faux-government are the extreme that needs to be abolished. Thank you for bringing up that Bundy tried to pay. I read (on mainstream media, believe it or not ), That Mr Bundy tried to pay the state of Arizona, the party he actually made a contract with for grazing rights. The state refused the payments so he then put the money in to escrow so that it would be available and that his legal attempts to pay we supported by the funds being available. He did not REFUSE to pay. Ware the protests, the tee shirts supporting these people trying to defend their (OUR ) rights? Where is the "Ranch lives matter"? movement, or more to the point the "US citizens lives matter"? These people harmed no one, they did not destroy the facility they occupied. My guess is that high school girl who was quoted as wanting to feel safe again, was not threatened by the protesters but the hoards of gun toting military types that flooded the area. I had wondered why they picked that particular facility to make their stand, and have now read that it gave them access to the government computer so that they could attempt to get more information to prove their case. THAT makes a little sense to me. Access, at a low traffic facility that posed little threat to the public at large, yet Big Brother labels them domestic terrorists. Now reading the recent Executive order signed by the POTUS takes ALL of our Constitutional rights from us people!! We should ALL be terrified and up in arms about it. Yet the mainstream (even Fox News ) says NOTHING about this or other such orders which set us up for absolute government control. It is not a government of the people or by the people for quite a long time now.
From what I understand, Hammonds had a sending off gathering at their ranch just outside Burns Or. the day before they were to check back into jail. It was at this gathering, that a few decided there to occupy the wildlife refuge knowing it was closed for the season so they wouldnt be impeding anybody and yet would bring attention to the forefront of what was going on. They werent planning on it, but the emotion at the ranch gathering was to much and they went straight over there. It was stated Finicum didnt even have another change of clothes with him. They all held hands, the entire gathering and sang Amazing Grace and left. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | WHY dont those we voted in to congress impeach him already??? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Nevertooold - 2016-02-13 11:21 AM ThreeCorners - 2016-02-13 12:00 PM I went to news max and couldn't find it? I then used the search on news max and nothing came up? Looks like it was taken down. Obama has been busy between his pen and censorship.
The Constitution and those who love it are under attack...it's not the 'virus' it's the cure. This link has a short 'trailer' of the video...I don't know what happened to the link I originally posted? It's gone...I also added the fb page: phttp://www.newsmaxtv.com/shows/unfiltered/archive/vid/FobWd2MDE6-gLHDqrNRmmvCufFfPNK1-/
https://www.facebook.com/DMLdaily/posts/1116230278416428:0
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Ahh...the case of the missing dvd's! A MUST SEE... A few months ago I produced a DVD based on my experience at the Bundy Ranch. It all takes place on the day when the BLM and Bundy supporters went face to face in the desert. I have 1,500 DVDs in stock. A person who prefers to remain anonymous committed to buy all the DVDs in bulk and asked me to resell them on their behalf to you at a discounted price. The money raised will be used to offset Ammon Bundy's legal fees. Pick up A DAY AT BUNDYs for just $12. FREE shipping. To buy the film, please go to: http://www.dennismichaellynch.com/films_reel/ | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | foundation horse - 2016-02-13 11:11 AM
Nevertooold - 2016-02-13 10:45 AM
If you don't find this scary and telling...You are really doomed and might as well hand over everything to the King.. On Friday,President Obama signed the 'Patriot Defense of Liberty Enabler Act' which is his latest in a series of Executive Orders to bring the U.S.'in compliance with United Nations Agenda 21'. The President says his plan will allow the Federal Government to 'assume control of all Federal territory in case of a National Emergency or civil disobedience' and 'enhance Jade Helm protocols'.?The act would also allow U.N. Troops to assist U.S. forces when needed on domestic soil. What do you think about the President's executive order that would allow the Federal Government to assume authority over 'all States and Territories' in the United States.Is this Obama's grab for Martial Law and a third term as President?
The runup to martial law which would suspend elections........................
My dear Lord what has our nation become. . . . | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Very interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q7i3vdxUaM&feature=youtu.be | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Video interview with the fire marshall of Burns Or. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYSdFvB6YbA&app=desktop | |
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 BHW's Lance Armstrong 
Posts: 11134
     Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-14 10:03 PM Video interview with the fire marshall of Burns Or. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYSdFvB6YbA&app=desktop
That was good to listen too. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | https://www.facebook.com/DMLdaily/photos/a.518991104807018.111801.513600888679373/1117851338254322/?type=3 | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | You know, I see the family of Finicum is trying to organize a nationwide protest for LaVoy on march 5. While I understand the families grief and anger along with much of the country but I cant help but think it's a very bad idea at this time. Isnt it time for the family to step back, gather all facts and info and fight it out in a court of law? | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-16 7:26 AM
You know, I see the family of Finicum is trying to organize a nationwide protest for LaVoy on march 5. While I understand the families grief and anger along with much of the country but I cant help but think it's a very bad idea at this time. Isnt it time for the family to step back, gather all facts and info and fight it out in a court of law?
I agree, but if they are so certain, why can't they do both? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-02-16 7:07 AM ThreeCorners - 2016-02-16 7:26 AM You know, I see the family of Finicum is trying to organize a nationwide protest for LaVoy on march 5. While I understand the families grief and anger along with much of the country but I cant help but think it's a very bad idea at this time. Isnt it time for the family to step back, gather all facts and info and fight it out in a court of law? I agree, but if they are so certain, why can't they do both?
They're needing public support to get a full investigation...it's unfortunate and ignores individual rights and expectations that we must garner that public support because, although we're not a democracy, public sentiment seems to rule our world vs. right/wrong.
There's a lot going on behind the scenes and we (Americans) have everything to lose...alas, many feel that 'ignorance is bliss', others cannot comprehend how huge it is, still others refuse to believe that such evil manipulation exists . My favorite all time quote is: "People are only capable of comprehending feelings in others that we feel in ourselves." The majority of us are decent...our lack of accepting that evil exists opens doors for those who are not decent. Idk...I wish it were simple. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"?
We are supposed to be a nation of laws. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Bear - 2016-02-16 3:04 PM
There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"?
We are supposed to be a nation of laws.
Your query illustrates just how far America has slid towards Totitaliarn (sp) Government which only a handful of individuals decide what is best for the majority of individuals. America is DONE! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1525
  
| I am a little behind....was there an autopsy every released. If so, what did it reveal. If not, then WHY not? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2016-02-16 2:11 PM Bear - 2016-02-16 3:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Your query illustrates just how far America has slid towards Totitaliarn (sp ) Government which only a handful of individuals decide what is best for the majority of individuals. America is DONE! I don't understand it either...maybe because it's the 'federal government' and 'they' aren't 'us'? I know we were led to believe that the gov't on all levels represent the people, however, there's a little 'glitch' when it comes to executive branch agencies...aside from the fact that they aren't part of our constitutional structure (then OR now), 'they' only answer to the potus. Oh yeah...'they' also have their own court system. Yup. America is DONE.
Here's todays 'decision' by 'they' (we always wondered who 'they were? Now we know!), it would be hilarious if it weren't so serious...and I think any cowboy can see right through it? http://www.scribd.com/doc/299471534/2-16-16-Doc-4-U-S-A-v-CLIVEN-BUNDY-USA-Detention-Memorandum-for-Cliven-Bundy
Edited by musikmaker 2016-02-16 4:25 PM
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | Bear - 2016-02-16 4:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws.
We are a nation of laws. But I am afraid that nothing is going to change some peoples minds. They will believe what they want to believe because it fits what they want to happen. Paranoida is not going to solve any problems. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-02-16 6:13 PM
Bear - 2016-02-16 4:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws.
We are a nation of laws. But I am afraid that nothing is going to change some peoples minds. They will believe what they want to believe because it fits what they want to happen. Paranoida is not going to solve any problems.
Those 'laws' this nation is supposed to be of, were original Constitutional. However, currently there are unConstitutional 'laws' along with agencies than there are Constitutional.
Think I am wrong? Then please cite Constitutional Authority for anything other The Department of Defense. Also why is there a Federal Reserve Bank when Congress is Constitutionally charged with the oversight of American Currency. I can continue with other non Constitutional offenses, but most Americans have no clue just what The Constitution actually authorizes! Wonder why that is? Maybe because The Constitution via Civics and American Government Classes no longer exist thanks to the non Constitutional Department of Education! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2016-02-16 5:26 PM Vickie - 2016-02-16 6:13 PM Bear - 2016-02-16 4:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws. We are a nation of laws. But I am afraid that nothing is going to change some peoples minds. They will believe what they want to believe because it fits what they want to happen. Paranoida is not going to solve any problems. Those 'laws' this nation is supposed to be of, were original Constitutional. However, currently there are unConstitutional 'laws' along with agencies than there are Constitutional. Think I am wrong? Then please cite Constitutional Authority for anything other The Department of Defense. Also why is there a Federal Reserve Bank when Congress is Constitutionally charged with the oversight of American Currency. I can continue with other non Constitutional offenses, but most Americans have no clue just what The Constitution actually authorizes! Wonder why that is? Maybe because The Constitution via Civics and American Government Classes no longer exist thanks to the non Constitutional Department of Education!
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is the power of federal agencies that are not a part of our constitutional structure. Just remember, the same executive overreach that can undermine the coal industry can also be used to undermine the smartphone industry. If you haven't read Tim Cook's letter to Apple Inc. customers on his company's commitment to protect privacy, it is worth a read. Notable passages: "But now the U.S. government has asked us for something we simply do not have, and something we consider too dangerous to create.""Rather than asking for legislative action through Congress, the FBI is proposing an unprecedented use of the All Writs Act of 1789 to justify an expansion of its authority." "Opposing this order is not something we take lightly. We feel we must speak up in the face of what we see as an overreach by the U.S. government." If you know someone with an iPhone, make sure they read this: http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ http://constitution.findlaw.com/article3/annotation06.html | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Vickie - 2016-02-16 6:13 PM Bear - 2016-02-16 4:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws. We are a nation of laws. But I am afraid that nothing is going to change some peoples minds. They will believe what they want to believe because it fits what they want to happen. Paranoida is not going to solve any problems.
Exactly. Most people just watch main stream news and we all know the spin they put on things. They had these guys in a armed takeover, terrorizing the town with their guns, and LaVoy dieing in a shootout. Yet, we all know they never pointed a single gun at a single person, people were coming and going from the refuge at all times including the media, and when they murdered LaVoy there was no "shootout". They were the only ones fireing shots and it was far from a routine "traffic stop". | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-02-17 11:30 AM
Vickie - 2016-02-16 6:13 PM Bear - 2016-02-16 4:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws. We are a nation of laws. But I am afraid that nothing is going to change some peoples minds. They will believe what they want to believe because it fits what they want to happen. Paranoida is not going to solve any problems.
Exactly. Most people just watch main stream news and we all know the spin they put on things. They had these guys in a armed takeover, terrorizing the town with their guns, and LaVoy dieing in a shootout. Yet, we all know they never pointed a single gun at a single person, people were coming and going from the refuge at all times including the media, and when they murdered LaVoy there was no "shootout". They were the only ones fireing shots and it was far from a routine "traffic stop".
I am quite certain, you left out the sarcasm emoticons.  | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-02-16 4:21 PM foundation horse - 2016-02-16 2:11 PM Bear - 2016-02-16 3:04 PM There's something wrong when they "need public support" in order to get a full investigation. What does that mean? We need demonstrations? Riots? More hostility? Petitions? Since when has it become necessary for the prevailing winds of public opinion to dictate whether or not justice will be served? What, exactly, is the threshold for getting a full investigation, and trial, if supported by the facts? Have we now devolved into a society governed by mob rule? Whatever happened to "due process"? Why do we even have a "Bill of Rights"? We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Your query illustrates just how far America has slid towards Totitaliarn (sp ) Government which only a handful of individuals decide what is best for the majority of individuals. America is DONE! I don't understand it either...maybe because it's the 'federal government' and 'they' aren't 'us'? I know we were led to believe that the gov't on all levels represent the people, however, there's a little 'glitch' when it comes to executive branch agencies...aside from the fact that they aren't part of our constitutional structure (then OR now), 'they' only answer to the potus. Oh yeah...'they' also have their own court system.
Yup. America is DONE.
Here's todays 'decision' by 'they' (we always wondered who 'they were? Now we know!), it would be hilarious if it weren't so serious...and I think any cowboy can see right through it?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/299471534/2-16-16-Doc-4-U-S-A-v-CLIVEN-BUNDY-USA-Detention-Memorandum-for-Cliven-Bundy
What a joke! You have an old rancher standing up for his beliefs and they deem him dangerous. You have Black Lives Matters and Al Sharpton and this goon...http://www.wnd.com/2015/08/farrakhans-call-to-kill-white-cops-is-it-legal/ And nothing is done. Follow the money and follow the ideology and you get your answers.
Just a side note...It's ironic how the Black Lives Matters and the Bureau of Land Management share the same intials of BLM. Both are total BS and both need to be stopped. They are the true violaters. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Double standard.
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | We have lost our freedom of speech when it doesn't agree with the Federal Government and groups like Black Lives Matter and other radical groups.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/22559-feds-jail-radio-host-sparking-free-speech-outcry
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | musikmaker - 2016-02-17 10:36 AM
This is the power of federal agencies that are not a part of our constitutional structure. Just remember, the same executive overreach that can undermine the coal industry can also be used to undermine the smartphone industry. If you haven't read Tim Cook's letter to Apple Inc. customers on his company's commitment to protect privacy, it is worth a read. Notable passages: "But now the U.S. government has asked us for something we simply do not have, and something we consider too dangerous to create." "Rather than asking for legislative action through Congress, the FBI is proposing an unprecedented use of the All Writs Act of 1789 to justify an expansion of its authority." "Opposing this order is not something we take lightly. We feel we must speak up in the face of what we see as an overreach by the U.S. government." If you know someone with an iPhone, make sure they read this: http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ http://constitution.findlaw.com/article3/annotation06.html
This sounds like stuff from futuristic movies. . . . Really scary stuff. There would be no end once we pass go on this one. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This. Is. The. End. If we don't do something. Fast. Please, please...I'm begging all of you to watch this if you don't do anything else...and share it. It may be too late & I say that because, until now, no person has had the 'confidence' to show their hand...to actually tell us the 'plan'. I'm referring to Loretta Lynch. Now we know...and now we've 'seen' it. What happened in Oregon is only a preview of what's to come. I don't personally have a clue as to how we fight this. Awareness? Or...'Ignorance is bliss'? Do note that this video was made in October 2015... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSVAuA-NOzE&sns=fb | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSVAuA-NOzE&sns=fb
This was posted in October 2015. Per this speech and support thereof, The Federal Government has relinquished American Sovereignty! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This video covers a lot of ground...it's a must watch. There's still a lot of info and people gathering it to present the truth. Note that you won't see Cliven packing a gun at any time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVi-EOn5g5w&sns=fb | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | musikmaker - 2016-02-18 10:59 AM This. Is. The. End. If we don't do something. Fast.
Please, please...I'm begging all of you to watch this if you don't do anything else...and share it.
It may be too late & I say that because, until now, no person has had the 'confidence' to show their hand...to actually tell us the 'plan'. I'm referring to Loretta Lynch.
Now we know...and now we've 'seen' it. What happened in Oregon is only a preview of what's to come.
I don't personally have a clue as to how we fight this. Awareness? Or...'Ignorance is bliss'?
Do note that this video was made in October 2015...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSVAuA-NOzE&sns=fb
What does it say? Y'all keep posting all these video links--I can't watch videos because I'm rural and my data is limited. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
     Location: Alabama | All of this makes me sick. Everyday I come check this thread and it only gets worse with more and more information. That Iphone deal REALLY is eye opening. If that goes through I will be going back to an old nokia phone for calls only and taking my pictures with a polaroid camera only. The executive branch is way out of line and out of control. Why will our congress not do anything about this mess??? | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| As far as the Iphone thing, I have stubbornly held on to my flip phone. All they are going to get off of it is pics of my horses, dogs etc., and some texts, innocent they may be but if they want to they can make something out of nothing.
I keep waiting for someone somewhere to bring up the Juniper Virus (I think that is what it is called), if what I just read on line a few days ago can be trusted as legit. It is a computer virus that can be transmitted via an seemingly innocent email, installs itself and removes all traces of it's installation. It can issue commands that appear to be from legit sources. It is geared towards the Windows 95 operating system and it in all probability in most major systems, ie, banking, utilities, power plants, medical records etc. They supposedly researched it's origins and it is said that it was created by .....the NSA..... to create a backdoor so that they could monitor terrorists groups. And someone got a hold of it and have used against us. Now we are expected to trust ANY government branch to use such a backdoor responsibly when they could not keep the one they made secure??!! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-18 10:34 AM musikmaker - 2016-02-18 10:59 AM This. Is. The. End. If we don't do something. Fast.
Please, please...I'm begging all of you to watch this if you don't do anything else...and share it.
It may be too late & I say that because, until now, no person has had the 'confidence' to show their hand...to actually tell us the 'plan'. I'm referring to Loretta Lynch.
Now we know...and now we've 'seen' it. What happened in Oregon is only a preview of what's to come.
I don't personally have a clue as to how we fight this. Awareness? Or...'Ignorance is bliss'?
Do note that this video was made in October 2015...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSVAuA-NOzE&sns=fb
What does it say? Y'all keep posting all these video links--I can't watch videos because I'm rural and my data is limited.
Oh no! Here's a simple summary? The Strong Cities Network is how the United Nations and globalists intend to globalize America's Police force, and subject us to global governance. Attorney KrisAnne Hall discusses the dire ramifications of the newly implemented United Nations program, "Strong Cities Network", intending to globalize America's police force. Please support KrisAnne Hall and her efforts to educate and alert Americans to how our entire form of government is being overthrown before our very eyes.
http://KrisAnneHall.com
Article by Rick Wells: "AG Lorette Lynch Launches Stealth takeover of American Through UN Police and Social Global Agreement" | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | OK this sh!t's getting wild. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Thanks, musikmaker. (Autocorrect tried to turn you into musk maker, but I don't believe it) | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-18 2:59 PM Thanks, musikmaker. (Autocorrect tried to turn you into musk maker, but I don't believe it)
snort! I will NOT go there... | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
     Location: Alabama | Back to the iphone deal. At least they won't be fighting the feds alone like our Oregon ranchers have been.
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/02/apples_not_alone_twitter_f... | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Sockittoemred - 2016-02-19 7:13 AM Back to the iphone deal. At least they won't be fighting the feds alone like our Oregon ranchers have been. http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/02/apples_not_alone_twitter_f...
I think what bothers me the most about people is that they're more than willing to back laws that intrude into the private lives of our fellow Americans, but, when the shtf they want nothing to do with it unless it affects them directly. Everybody wants to rule the world...(there's gotta be a song in there...ha) | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Thank goodness our local news is staying with this story or I would have never known there was any developments.
The latest articles on refuge take over. The judge is demanding prosecutors to hand over the evidence gathered by the FBI to the defense attorneys. Prosecutors told Judge Brown they would relinquish it in 14 days. Judge Brown demanded some evidence be handed over by March 4th.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/federal_judge_pre...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ammon-bundy-other-alleged-orego...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/24/ammon-bundy-others-plead-not-g... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
      
| Bear - 2016-02-18 2:29 PM
OK this sh!t's getting wild.
"Can we make sense of the Malheur mess?
A writer finds camaraderie and despair inside the Oregon standoff."
https://www.hcn.org/articles/malheur-occupation-oregon-ammon-bundy-p...
"As Utah State Rep. Ken Ivory, when he was president of the American Lands Council, famously said of privatizing federal lands, “It’s like having your hands on the lever of a modern-day Louisiana Purchase.”
Since this is fairly long and involved, I thought you were the most likely to comprehend what this man found when he went looking for kindred spirits at the occupation. It was so facinating, I actually read it twice.
And the groupies should take it as a lesson that if you want to do something illegal, the news media and Internet crowd are the last places you want to scream about killing federal agents and showing yourself with a sniper rifle aimed at officers. It might look cool to your buds, but not so much in a courtroom. And those sharing the OregonLive stories might want to scroll down through the comment sections. At least 99% support the law, and are especially po'd at the 3.3 million dollar price tag.
One of the funniest comments came from TruePatriotCowgirl who thought they should be released on their own Cognitive Dissonance. Classic. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | OregonBR - 2016-02-26 4:52 PM Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats.
I watched that clip too, downright scary how uninformed today's youth are. When I was in college in the 70's we were all veterans of the Vietnam protests and very involved in world and national politics. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | OregonBR - 2016-02-26 3:52 PM Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats.
My 10 year old has a larger vocab than the average college student. He probably has more awareness of what's going on in the world than a lot of them too. I pray he doesn't backslide into idiocy during his teenaged years... | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-02-27 7:58 AM
OregonBR - 2016-02-26 3:52 PM Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats.
My 10 year old has a larger vocab than the average college student. He probably has more awareness of what's going on in the world than a lot of them too. I pray he doesn't backslide into idiocy during his teenaged years...
Chandler has always amazed me with what he knows about current events as well as history compared to other kids his age. (He'll be 18 in two weeks but he's been this way for YEARS.) Then I realized he knows more than a lot of adults. I hate to admit it but he's told me stuff that I didn't know. And when I doubted him and looked it up, I had to apologize because he was right. . . And I see the segments where they go to college students and ask them questions about past and current issues---and I'm embarrassed for them and their parents. And terrified for our country. . . . | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | OregonBR - 2016-02-26 4:52 PM Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats.
Not all are clueless and not all college students are idiots.. I would not sum them all into that group  | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Here's a CREDIBLE seminar video explaining the situation of Federal management of public lands in the west. It's not that I think the lands should be sold to the highest bidder. That's not what this is about. The land should have been turned over to the STATE. When the state was granted state status. The states should have been granted control of the land within their borders then. The FEDS should keep their hands OFF the land out here. This is a seminar with credible experts on this topic and as far as I'm concerned has explained the situation accurately. It's on C-span.org.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?403404-1/discussion-federally-controll... | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Bibliafarm - 2016-02-28 5:00 AM
OregonBR - 2016-02-26 4:52 PM Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats.
Not all are clueless and not all college students are idiots.. I would not sum them all into that group 
I know not all young people are stoopid or uneducated. But an alarming number of adults are very uninformed and really don't care enough to find out the why behind anything. The perfect example is the situation with the ranchers at the refuge. Most people take the MSM's and/or their government's word for it. Even if it doesn't make sense. They don't even think about it long enough to determine if there is logic in what is said or not. They are voters. So there's that. They vote for the best speaker, the prettiest man/woman. Hell they vote just because someone has a vagina rather than a dangly thing. How stoopid is that? | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| OregonBR - 2016-02-28 2:25 PM
Here's a CREDIBLE seminar video explaining the situation of Federal management of public lands in the west. It's not that I think the lands should be sold to the highest bidder. That's not what this is about. The land should have been turned over to the STATE. When the state was granted state status. The states should have been granted control of the land within their borders then. The FEDS should keep their hands OFF the land out here. This is a seminar with credible experts on this topic and as far as I'm concerned has explained the situation accurately. It's on C-span.org.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?403404-1/discussion-federally-controll...
^^ This^^ | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | So, the prosecutor says the shooting was justified. I am no math wiz - so can someone who reads this explain to me exactly how many shots were fired. Seems to not add up to me. http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-police-shooting-of-refuge-occupier-justified-prosecutor/ar-AAgxrsx?li=BBnb7Kz | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas |
Another thing to keep in mind..............................Just who does the Prosecutor represent? The Government or The Citizens?
A Better Question to ask One's Self is: Who Signs The Prosecution Attorney's Paycheck? (As in don't bite the hand that feeds one.) | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
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They must be using Common Core Math.  | |
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 Knowledge is Power
Posts: 4051
    Location: wherever my daughter's running | cyount2009 - 2016-03-08 3:10 PM They must be using Common Core Math. 
Good one  | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| cyount2009 - 2016-03-08 2:10 PM
They must be using Common Core Math. 
Has anyone read this article since it was originally posted on the forum? There is a lot more info on including where he was shot, audio quotes and more. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| This surfaced on my facebook this morning from the Bundy Ranch page. I do not find the Bundy's as a credible resource but what was said in the video and on the most current report from MSN.
It is an audio and inside video of what was happening inside Finnicum's vehicle. I have not been able to find it anywhere else at this time but I am sure it will surface at some point. When it does, if someone has not already posted it I will post it here as well.
https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/videos/974883769255098/?fref=nf | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
     Location: Windoming | cyount2009 - 2016-03-09 8:59 AM This surfaced on my facebook this morning from the Bundy Ranch page. I do not find the Bundy's as a credible resource but what was said in the video and on the most current report from MSN. It is an audio and inside video of what was happening inside Finnicum's vehicle. I have not been able to find it anywhere else at this time but I am sure it will surface at some point. When it does, if someone has not already posted it I will post it here as well. https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/videos/974883769255098/?fref=nf[...
I heard that on FB too. Very scary for them. I had to make myself listen to it. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Today's kids only know what they are taught. School's today are more into indocrinating then teaching. It started way back when I was in High School and I've watched it grow the last 40 some years. Very sad. If I was a parent, I would be homeschooling. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 286
     Location: hillsboro mo. | I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers! | |
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 Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
     Location: Oregon | lwagner - 2016-03-09 11:36 AM I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers!
I can't even IMAGINE what it would be like to be a teacher in this day and age with very little respect from both kids AND parents. Nope, no way. My Dad was a teacher when we were kids and he recently went back during his retirement to do some substituting and after a week he said H*LL No! Couldn't believe it the disrepect in the classroom. In my opinion teachers and police are the most underrated, underpaid workers ever. Thank you teachers and LE for all you do!! | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 1:36 PM I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers!
Then tell me why kids are so stupid today? Is it because your hands are tied and instead of being a teacher you have become a babysitter and you talk more about social problems then history?
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Veteran
Posts: 286
     Location: hillsboro mo. | BTW, I have been an Educator for 27 years. I taught Kindergarten in a small rural school for 10 years and I have been a College Professor for the last 17 years. I teach people how to be teachers. I DON'T indoctorine anyone about anything. I am Professional and I take offense to anyone who questions my motives in the classroom. And in case your wondering I am also a very conservative Repilican and a Baptist. So you should think twice before you start judging other people. Flame Away
Edited by lwagner 2016-03-09 2:00 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 1:36 PM
I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers!
Then what are Teachers doing to educate students who don't understand History? Or Civics?
Just what are Teachers doing to combat standardized testing?
I chose not to educate my Boys in public school due to the current product being produced.
Just what are TEACHERS doing to change that current product and its' detestable reputation??????????????????? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
      
| Katie's - 2016-03-09 1:44 PM
lwagner - 2016-03-09 11:36 AM I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers!
I can't even IMAGINE what it would be like to be a teacher in this day and age with very little respect from both kids AND parents. Nope, no way. My Dad was a teacher when we were kids and he recently went back during his retirement to do some substituting and after a week he said H*LL No! Couldn't believe it the disrepect in the classroom. In my opinion teachers and police are the most underrated, underpaid workers ever. Thank you teachers and LE for all you do!!
It's not only that... Their budgets have been cut, demanding better performance "test" scores all while taking away necessities needed to achieve them, over crowded classrooms, teachers are making less now than they did 15 years ago, and many more....
"Choking someone out and then claiming that they are no longer successful because of their inability to breathe is wrong"
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 1:59 PM
BTW, I have been an Educator for 27 years. I taught Kindergarten in a small rural school for 10 years and I have been a College Professor for the last 17 years. I teach people how to be teachers. I DON'T indoctorine anyone about anything. I am Professional and I take offense to anyone who questions my motives in the classroom. And in case your wondering I am also a very conservative Repilican and a Baptist. So you should think twice before you start judging other people. Flame Away
My questions (or judgements as you call them) stand! And I would appreciate answers from any teacher!
Especially since Education is NOT Free! Someone has pay for it! | |
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| Nevertooold - 2016-03-09 1:54 PM
lwagner - 2016-03-09 1:36 PM I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers!
Then tell me why kids are so stupid today? Is it because your hands are tied and instead of being a teacher you have become a babysitter and you talk more about social problems then history?
The world would sure be a better place if parents would do their job raising their children rather than expecting someone else to do it for them. Respect and love for other people come/start from home. If a child can't respect and listen to its parents, it sure as heck isn't going to respect his or her teacher or listen in class.
I was talking to someone this morning about a 5 year old boy I know, and it is UNREAL how smart and intelligent he is. This kid is far from "stupid." The person I was talking to said take a look at who is around him and the people raising him. If only everyone raised their child like that how could we possibly have so much hatred in this world?
Parents need to step up. My generation is failing it's children. | |
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
           Location: Kansas | OregonBR - 2016-02-26 3:52 PM Just because 99% of the general public is clueless, doesn't mean I want to be or am. Just watch a clip about how frickin stoopid our college age people are. They couldn't tell the truth about anything in history. All they know about is the latest Iphone, Snookey or the Cardashians. So excuse me if I think they are asshats.
not all college age people are "stoopid"...... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 1:59 PM BTW, I have been an Educator for 27 years. I taught Kindergarten in a small rural school for 10 years and I have been a College Professor for the last 17 years. I teach people how to be teachers. I DON'T indoctorine anyone about anything. I am Professional and I take offense to anyone who questions my motives in the classroom. And in case your wondering I am also a very conservative Repilican and a Baptist. So you should think twice before you start judging other people. Flame Away
Seriously? Kindergarten in a rural area and now your are a professor. Says it all. What is a Repillican? I rest my case.
Edited by Nevertooold 2016-03-09 2:09 PM
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Veteran
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     Location: hillsboro mo. | I dare you to find one single teacher that is in favor of standardized teats. The only reason they use them is because the Gov. requires it. Its all about teacher accountability. If you want education reform, ask a teacher not a politican. There are much better ways to evaluate a students progress. Look up Authintic Assessment. As far as the curriculm is concerned, again out the teachers hands. They teach what they are told to teach. Usually the curriculm is decided on by what is on the tests. Who makes the test? Publishing Companies. Therefore who is determining what is included in the curriculm? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 2:09 PM
I dare you to find one single teacher that is in favor of standardized teats. The only reason they use them is because the Gov. requires it. Its all about teacher accountability. If you want education reform, ask a teacher not a politican. There are much better ways to evaluate a students progress. Look up Authintic Assessment. As far as the curriculm is concerned, again out the teachers hands. They teach what they are told to teach. Usually the curriculm is decided on by what is on the tests. Who makes the test? Publishing Companies. Therefore who is determining what is included in the curriculm?
I am asking a Teacher. YOU! What are Teachers doing to combat standardized testing? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 286
     Location: hillsboro mo. | My name is Laniece Wagner and I teach at Jefferson College in Hillsboro, Mo. Before that I taught at Lonedell Elementary in Lonedell, Mo. Look it up if you don't believe me. Sorry for the typos!
Edited by lwagner 2016-03-09 2:13 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Back on topic of this thread.
Per that cell phone video released on here and facebook, The Feds are NOT telling everything they know............................
Apparently there are reports that the Feds involved in this shooting are now under investigation. Gee Whiz! Will that bring LaVoy back????????????
How about some accountability to begin with from The Federal Government! The County Sheriff had jurisdiction over that event NOT The FBI or BLM! Neither of which are Constitutionally Authorized to begin with! | |
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| Nevertooold - 2016-03-09 2:07 PM
lwagner - 2016-03-09 1:59 PM BTW, I have been an Educator for 27 years. I taught Kindergarten in a small rural school for 10 years and I have been a College Professor for the last 17 years. I teach people how to be teachers. I DON'T indoctorine anyone about anything. I am Professional and I take offense to anyone who questions my motives in the classroom. And in case your wondering I am also a very conservative Repilican and a Baptist. So you should think twice before you start judging other people. Flame Away
Seriously? Kindergarten in a rural area and now your are a professor. Says it all. What is a Repillican? I rest my case.
I would be elated to have someone qualified enough to be a college professor be my child's Kindergarten teacher. Our children are influenced the most on who they are going to become at those young ages.... | |
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| foundation horse - 2016-03-09 2:10 PM
lwagner - 2016-03-09 2:09 PM
I dare you to find one single teacher that is in favor of standardized teats. The only reason they use them is because the Gov. requires it. Its all about teacher accountability. If you want education reform, ask a teacher not a politican. There are much better ways to evaluate a students progress. Look up Authintic Assessment. As far as the curriculm is concerned, again out the teachers hands. They teach what they are told to teach. Usually the curriculm is decided on by what is on the tests. Who makes the test? Publishing Companies. Therefore who is determining what is included in the curriculm?
I am asking a Teacher. YOU! What are Teachers doing to combat standardized testing?
Why is it only up to teachers? As a parent, I find it's my responsibility as well, I am the one who chose to have a child.... | |
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Veteran
Posts: 286
     Location: hillsboro mo. | You don't undrstand that teachers are contolled by their admin., school boards and Gov. What would happen to you if you refused to do what is required at your job? Thats like blaming a nurse for giving you a shot that the doc. odered. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 2:09 PM I dare you to find one single teacher that is in favor of standardized teats. The only reason they use them is because the Gov. requires it. Its all about teacher accountability. If you want education reform, ask a teacher not a politican. There are much better ways to evaluate a students progress. Look up Authintic Assessment. As far as the curriculm is concerned, again out the teachers hands. They teach what they are told to teach. Usually the curriculm is decided on by what is on the tests. Who makes the test? Publishing Companies. Therefore who is determining what is included in the curriculm?
You're pretty much confirming everything I have said. Teachers are no longer teachers and the government is indocrinating kids through teachers by not allowing to teach them history etc. My grandson's school has gone to common core. What a joke. The parents are doing what they can to get common core out of their schools. Our daughter is a single mom so homeschooling is out of the question as she works a lot of overtime but is lucky enough to work at home. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 286
     Location: hillsboro mo. | I have 5 teaching certificates from the state of Mo. I would like to list them for you if your interested but I dont have time right now. I have to pick up my grandson from school. A school that I picked out for him to attend because I understand education a whole he!! of a lot more than you. When you have the same creditals or more than me maybe I will listen to your thoughts on education. Bye for now. I'll check back in again tomorrow.Have fun
Edited by lwagner 2016-03-09 2:32 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FlyingJT - 2016-03-09 2:19 PM
foundation horse - 2016-03-09 2:10 PM
lwagner - 2016-03-09 2:09 PM
I dare you to find one single teacher that is in favor of standardized teats. The only reason they use them is because the Gov. requires it. Its all about teacher accountability. If you want education reform, ask a teacher not a politican. There are much better ways to evaluate a students progress. Look up Authintic Assessment. As far as the curriculm is concerned, again out the teachers hands. They teach what they are told to teach. Usually the curriculm is decided on by what is on the tests. Who makes the test? Publishing Companies. Therefore who is determining what is included in the curriculm?
I am asking a Teacher. YOU! What are Teachers doing to combat standardized testing?
Why is it only up to teachers? As a parent, I find it's my responsibility as well, I am the one who chose to have a child....
For the record:
My two Teenaged Boys (actually Young Men) have received innumerable accolades and comments on their behavior and general personalities. They need to have solid foundations in order to be able to learn in school. I will give you that. But when individuals such as I have described encounter subpar teachers, then there is a problem. And there are darn sure many subpar teachers in education today due to the idea of Teacher's Unions and Tenure. I have not been shy in calling teachers out who do not perform either................... | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | lwagner - 2016-03-09 2:27 PM I have 5 teaching certificates from the state of Mo. I would like to list them for you if your interested but I dont have time right now. I have to pick up my grandson from school. A school that I picked out for him to attend because I understand education a whole he!! of a lot more than you. When you have the same creditals or more than me maybe I will listen to your thoughts on education. Bye for now. I'll check back in again tomorrow.Have fun
You can get back to me when you figure out we are on the same page. The government needs to get out of the education business as they have failed. | |
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| To end this ****ing match over who's responsibility it is to educate our children and get back to topic, here is the video as well as an article on the investigation on the 5 FBI agents who are suspected to have orchestrated a cover up. This appears to be the same video that was circulating facebook for anyone who wanted to watch but doesn't have an account.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_f...
Edited by cyount2009 2016-03-09 2:58 PM
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 Expert
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| AND what we have all been waiting for... the autopsy results.
http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/03/08/Finicu... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
     Location: Windoming | | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | | |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
    Location: In The Land of Cotton | Nevertooold - 2016-03-09 4:38 PM
I noticed that too. Because if he had it on, "they" should have left it. But he didn't. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Silly Filly - 2016-03-09 3:33 PM
While this administration jumps out with conclusions about local LEO's doing their job and making them the criminals...our government has their own special of FBI elites killing an innocent man. Very scary. We can't get a new president quick enough and not one that is one of the good old boys in government. | |
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| Nevertooold - 2016-03-09 3:38 PM
It was never stated the pistol was in a shoulder holster. From the very beginning it stated the weapon was in the inside breast pocket of his jacket. My husband, as well as a million other men wear that same blanket lined Levi jacket and I can tell you a copenhagen can barely fits in that thing, I don't even think you could put a subcompact in it. They said it was a 9 mm Rugar, no way am I believing that.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | C'mon now. Let's be honest here. This was a very hostile, volatile environment. The cops had them surrounded with guns drawn. Obviously they all knew he carried weapons all the time in the past, including in a shoulder holster. He exits the vehicle and raises his arms, and then reaches with his right hand toward his left chest. These cops don't have time to analyze and estimate the odds of him reaching for his weapon. They have a fraction of a second to react. That's how they are trained.
Now, if LaVoy was shot before he made that reach, that's another thing. In that case he was executed and there's no excuse. If they shot him after he made the move, then that was LaVoy's fatal mistake. Even so, I don't understand why they couldn't have stayed behind cover, guns drawn, and diffused the situation. They had the man and the occupants of the Vehicle trapped. They weren't going anywhere. The key is finding out definitively whether or not he was shot before making the move. Verbal "taunting" is no justification to shoot a man like a dog. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-03-09 4:01 PM C'mon now. Let's be honest here. This was a very hostile, volatile environment. The cops had them surrounded with guns drawn. Obviously they all knew he carried weapons all the time in the past, including in a shoulder holster. He exits the vehicle and raises his arms, and then reaches with his right hand toward his left chest. These cops don't have time to analyze and estimate the odds of him reaching for his weapon. They have a fraction of a second to react. That's how they are trained. Now, if LaVoy was shot before he made that reach, that's another thing. In that case he was executed and there's no excuse. If they shot him after he made the move, then that was LaVoy's fatal mistake. Even so, I don't understand why they couldn't have stayed behind cover, guns drawn, and diffused the situation. They had the man and the occupants of the Vehicle trapped. They weren't going anywhere. The key is finding out definitively whether or not he was shot before making the move. Verbal "taunting" is no justification to shoot a man like a dog.
Who made it hostile & volatile? There were shots fired before Lavoy was killed...the one through the roof as he was exiting the vehicle was likely meant to be a head shot! What about the ones fired as they came around the blind corner? And the first shot when they stopped the first time? Lavoy was keenly aware that he was a dead man. And he was pi****. I would have been, too, and can easily see myself & everyone I know acting about the same way...shoot me or let me go! I also still firmly believe that it was supposed to be a 'shoot out'...the cops fully expected return fire which would have justified killing all of them.
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 Nicknameless
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     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This interview is well worth watching to the end. http://katu.com/news/local/jailhouse-interview-ammon-bundy-says-governments-story-is-unraveling | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-03-09 5:01 PM C'mon now. Let's be honest here. This was a very hostile, volatile environment. The cops had them surrounded with guns drawn. Obviously they all knew he carried weapons all the time in the past, including in a shoulder holster. He exits the vehicle and raises his arms, and then reaches with his right hand toward his left chest. These cops don't have time to analyze and estimate the odds of him reaching for his weapon. They have a fraction of a second to react. That's how they are trained. Now, if LaVoy was shot before he made that reach, that's another thing. In that case he was executed and there's no excuse. If they shot him after he made the move, then that was LaVoy's fatal mistake. Even so, I don't understand why they couldn't have stayed behind cover, guns drawn, and diffused the situation. They had the man and the occupants of the Vehicle trapped. They weren't going anywhere. The key is finding out definitively whether or not he was shot before making the move. Verbal "taunting" is no justification to shoot a man like a dog.
But the problem is they should have never been ambushed in the first place. He was one his way to the sheriff and everything could have been ended there but they didn't want him to make it to the sheriffs. I'm usually 99% on the side of LEO's as I am married to a retired Sargeant. | |
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| Bear - 2016-03-09 5:01 PM
C'mon now. Let's be honest here. This was a very hostile, volatile environment. The cops had them surrounded with guns drawn. Obviously they all knew he carried weapons all the time in the past, including in a shoulder holster. He exits the vehicle and raises his arms, and then reaches with his right hand toward his left chest. These cops don't have time to analyze and estimate the odds of him reaching for his weapon. They have a fraction of a second to react. That's how they are trained.
Now, if LaVoy was shot before he made that reach, that's another thing. In that case he was executed and there's no excuse. If they shot him after he made the move, then that was LaVoy's fatal mistake. Even so, I don't understand why they couldn't have stayed behind cover, guns drawn, and diffused the situation. They had the man and the occupants of the Vehicle trapped. They weren't going anywhere. The key is finding out definitively whether or not he was shot before making the move. Verbal "taunting" is no justification to shoot a man like a dog.
Again, go to Www.oregonlive.com, watch the press conference. The man closest to him was trying to get close enough to taser him, and on the third reach into his coat, they shot him to protect the cop with the taser, end of story. It has video, pictures, state patrol, etc. even video by the dits in the back see who"saw the whole thing" on the floor of the pickup. He was unhinged, and running around with the rest of the malcontents sent him over the edge. It's just lucky he didn't get somebody else killed. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | He was on his way to a rally not to talk to law enforcement. He had a gun and he had said on TV he would not be taken alive. What about this situation do you think was reassuring to the law enforcement who were trying to end this stand off? I have seen the video and it is clear he made a move that could be construed as dangerous. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | If he knew he was a dead man, why did he haul women and kids with him? No matter what he knew, or feared, why did he haul them into that hornet's nest? He put those people in harm's way. I don't get that.
Also, the key to this is whether or not he was shot before he reached in his coat. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-03-09 5:55 PM Bear - 2016-03-09 5:01 PM C'mon now. Let's be honest here. This was a very hostile, volatile environment. The cops had them surrounded with guns drawn. Obviously they all knew he carried weapons all the time in the past, including in a shoulder holster. He exits the vehicle and raises his arms, and then reaches with his right hand toward his left chest. These cops don't have time to analyze and estimate the odds of him reaching for his weapon. They have a fraction of a second to react. That's how they are trained. Now, if LaVoy was shot before he made that reach, that's another thing. In that case he was executed and there's no excuse. If they shot him after he made the move, then that was LaVoy's fatal mistake. Even so, I don't understand why they couldn't have stayed behind cover, guns drawn, and diffused the situation. They had the man and the occupants of the Vehicle trapped. They weren't going anywhere. The key is finding out definitively whether or not he was shot before making the move. Verbal "taunting" is no justification to shoot a man like a dog. Again, go to Www.oregonlive.com, watch the press conference. The man closest to him was trying to get close enough to taser him, and on the third reach into his coat, they shot him to protect the cop with the taser, end of story. It has video, pictures, state patrol, etc. even video by the dits in the back see who"saw the whole thing" on the floor of the pickup. He was unhinged, and running around with the rest of the malcontents sent him over the edge. It's just lucky he didn't get somebody else killed.
Malcontents eh? And please explain just what You think of The Patriots who fought in The Revolutionary War to secure Your Current Freedom to Protest or Rebel against an overreaching Government?
The more You post, the more I am convinced You are a petty and jealous individual.
In Revolutionary Times You would be have been identified as a 'Tory'!know You understand U.S. History well to know what 'that' is. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Just discovered that roadblocks (in Oregon are unConstitional per The State Supreme Court) since 1987. So the Feds were conduction illegal operations to begin with. Also The County Sheriff has/had jurisdiction not The FBI or BlM! | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-03-09 6:15 PM If he knew he was a dead man, why did he haul women and kids with him? No matter what he knew, or feared, why did he haul them into that hornet's nest? He put those people in harm's way. I don't get that. Also, the key to this is whether or not he was shot before he reached in his coat.
By the time he realized that he was a 'dead man' they'd already been shot at...multiple times. I'm very certain that they all felt secure in their 'lawfulness'. And still do. The fbi would not have released ANYTHING if they thought they couldn't skew it to their favor...or confuse the facts. I think it's important to look at the character of the individuals involved...including the mercenaries, the hired guns. Figure it out! It's not that complicated. | |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | The new Video from the cell phone inside the car was a eye changer for me. I do believe it started out wrong on his part but the way it was handled the fbis part was Murder . I was literally scared for them in the vehicle while it was happening..Their voices were shaking..it escaulated further then they anticipated and put them in that situation yes their actions put them there BUT it was not handled properly.. IMHO.. I was one doubting it was murder.. until I watched and listened to the cell phone video.. of the ladies IN the suv up until they exited vehicle. | |
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     Location: Not Where I Want to Be | lwagner - 2016-03-09 2:36 PM I am sick and tired of people blaming teachers for every little thing that they feel is wrong with society today. Are you a teacher? Have you ever been a teacher? If not, you dont know what the HE!! you are talking about. Just because you were a student doesnt mean you know what it is like to be a teacher. I use plumbing everyday but am not an expert on plumbing! I have been a medical patient several times over the years but I dont feel as though I am qualified to judge a medical professional. Shame on you for not appreciating our teachers!
You can have the most noble intentions and if you are part of a crap organization(public education)you will still smell bad at the end of the day.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | Vickie - 2016-03-09 7:31 PM He was on his way to a rally not to talk to law enforcement. He had a gun and he had said on TV he would not be taken alive. What about this situation do you think was reassuring to the law enforcement who were trying to end this stand off? I have seen the video and it is clear he made a move that could be construed as dangerous.
I agree with this.. but the way it was handled after they shot him was wrong. They continued to blast into the vehicle.. shot after shot.. the cell phone video shows that. | |
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Elite Veteran
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| Bibliafarm - 2016-03-10 7:37 AM
Vickie - 2016-03-09 7:31 PM He was on his way to a rally not to talk to law enforcement. He had a gun and he had said on TV he would not be taken alive. What about this situation do you think was reassuring to the law enforcement who were trying to end this stand off? I have seen the video and it is clear he made a move that could be construed as dangerous.
I agree with this.. but the way it was handled after they shot him was wrong. They continued to blast into the vehicle.. shot after shot.. the cell phone video shows that.
You know there were only eight shots from guns, right? Three hit the truck as it was barreling towards the roadblock, three hit Finicum, and two fired by FBI. The "shots" hitting the truck after Finicum was shot were Flashbangs to convince the rest to surrender.
If you watch the easy to understand press conference, with pictures for the slow learners, it explains in detail what took place.
It's unfortunate for you that the evidence matches the police report, but that's life, honey. Watch the press conference again and try to listen closely this time.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
           Location: Florida.. | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-03-10 9:40 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-03-10 7:37 AM Vickie - 2016-03-09 7:31 PM He was on his way to a rally not to talk to law enforcement. He had a gun and he had said on TV he would not be taken alive. What about this situation do you think was reassuring to the law enforcement who were trying to end this stand off? I have seen the video and it is clear he made a move that could be construed as dangerous. I agree with this.. but the way it was handled after they shot him was wrong. They continued to blast into the vehicle.. shot after shot.. the cell phone video shows that. You know there were only eight shots from guns, right? Three hit the truck as it was barreling towards the roadblock, three hit Finicum, and two fired by FBI. The "shots" hitting the truck after Finicum was shot were Flashbangs to convince the rest to surrender. If you watch the easy to understand press conference, with pictures for the slow learners, it explains in detail what took place. It's unfortunate for you that the evidence matches the police report, but that's life, honey. Watch the press conference again and try to listen closely this time.
First of all Im not a slow learner.. second of all.. The cell phone video paints a differant picture.. I always felt lavoy was in the wrong.. the feds were in a situation to do whats right and safe.. but the end was not right .. it was handled wrong in my "slow" thinking.. to continue to blast whatever to the girls screaming stop is wrong in my "slow" way of thinking.. the whole situation esculated.. I nor You were there so i assume it was a frantic situation.. again... thanks for your input and condescending ways. god bless .. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Remember that when it was first reported it was reported as a 'shoot out', the police said Lavoy 'charged' them..they denied any shots had been fired until Lavoy went for a gun. They've now had a month & a half to 'firm up' their story and try to match it to the video and witness accounts. Bottom line is that the governor & state reps, & who knows who else, wanted to stop the "spread of the virus"...the teaching of the Constitution & Bill of Rights. Those were 'hired guns' in the trees. Blackstone. Mercenaries. They don't get called in to 'threaten' anyone...they were also at the Bundy Ranch in 2014 when the public got involved...why? OH yeah...I'd bet we could go back right here on BHW and see where it escalated due to the '1st Amendment Zone' that the fed created...it wasn't Cliven or anyone else who did the 'call for help'...however, they did need it or there would have been an entire family murdered then along with the killing of their cattle. What is more sick than the government doing this are the people who support them.
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| FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-03-10 8:40 AM
Bibliafarm - 2016-03-10 7:37 AM
Vickie - 2016-03-09 7:31 PM He was on his way to a rally not to talk to law enforcement. He had a gun and he had said on TV he would not be taken alive. What about this situation do you think was reassuring to the law enforcement who were trying to end this stand off? I have seen the video and it is clear he made a move that could be construed as dangerous.
I agree with this.. but the way it was handled after they shot him was wrong. They continued to blast into the vehicle.. shot after shot.. the cell phone video shows that.
You know there were only eight shots from guns, right? Three hit the truck as it was barreling towards the roadblock, three hit Finicum, and two fired by FBI. The "shots" hitting the truck after Finicum was shot were Flashbangs to convince the rest to surrender.
If you watch the easy to understand press conference, with pictures for the slow learners, it explains in detail what took place.
It's unfortunate for you that the evidence matches the police report, but that's life, honey. Watch the press conference again and try to listen closely this time.
Says who? The government, to justify their story? What about the shot that was fired AS SOON AS Finicum stepped out of the vehicle with his hands up, that blew out the side glass? Was that one counted? And now we find out that "oops, guess the FBI did fire shots... gee, we're really sorry we didn't report that. " How many other shots were not reported? This whole thing stinks to high heaven to me.
Stopping them in a section that had no cell service? Yeah, I am sure that was coincidental as well.
Finicum should have never exited the vehicle. By doing so he knew **** good and well he had just signed his death warrant. They wanted to make sure he would never speak again. How long did he lay in the snow before they approached him? They wanted no chance of him living through it. It is my opinion now and has always been that they wanted the protest to end and knew by killing the most articulate of the group, their spokesman, it would be resolved. They made an example out of him. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-03-10 8:40 AM
Bibliafarm - 2016-03-10 7:37 AM
Vickie - 2016-03-09 7:31 PM He was on his way to a rally not to talk to law enforcement. He had a gun and he had said on TV he would not be taken alive. What about this situation do you think was reassuring to the law enforcement who were trying to end this stand off? I have seen the video and it is clear he made a move that could be construed as dangerous.
I agree with this.. but the way it was handled after they shot him was wrong. They continued to blast into the vehicle.. shot after shot.. the cell phone video shows that.
You know there were only eight shots from guns, right? Three hit the truck as it was barreling towards the roadblock, three hit Finicum, and two fired by FBI. The "shots" hitting the truck after Finicum was shot were Flashbangs to convince the rest to surrender.
If you watch the easy to understand press conference, with pictures for the slow learners, it explains in detail what took place.
It's unfortunate for you that the evidence matches the police report, but that's life, honey. Watch the press conference again and try to listen closely this time.
And since You believe the Press Conference as presented by The Feds (who can do no wrong in your eyes) I suppose You believe The Fairy Godmother too????????????????????
I have some ocean front property in Arizona I will sell you real cheap. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | I believe the reason The MSM has not covered this event or the Bundy Event in Nevada is multi faceted. 1) The reporters are deathly scared of The Clinton Organization due to history. 2) A. Exposing what is really going on does not fit their agenda and B. would most likely expose their complicity thereby puttting the MSM out of business. | |
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             Location: North Texas | Research is fun! And enlightening. Just as soon as I started 'looking into' this event, I realized it was BAD! Everyone connected with the Feds in this scenario is tainted in one fashion or another! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | I finally got to read the autopsy. An exit wound under the left FRONT nipple indicates (to me) that LaVoy Fincium was shot from behind. Which is murder! Or in this event assination! | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| foundation horse - 2016-03-10 4:46 PM
I finally got to read the autopsy. An exit wound under the left FRONT nipple indicates (to me) that LaVoy Fincium was shot from behind. Which is murder! Or in this event assination!
All three shots entered from behind and exited his front. If you read closely, one had a downward entrance, one an upward and one straight on entrance. I wish they would have include angles as well. It really would have told the whole story as to where the bullets were coming from. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
       Location: Florida | A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD? | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
Seriously?  | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-03-10 5:44 PM
A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
Please oh please cite from The Constitution where The Federal Government is authorized to own all the land they claim. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
     Location: Windoming | Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Silly Filly - 2016-03-11 11:28 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them?
They had signed federal leases and then refused to pay the Federal Government. Instead they attempted to pay the State, which by means of the Constitution is the rightful owner of the land. The State refused the payments because the contract was not signed with them
I stand with the ranchers who are legitimately paying their leases to the institution and not getting to use the land they have paid for. This is the problem I have in supporting the Bundys. They have singed with the Federal Government and not the state. They have not paid their leases and now the government wants them off the property. The government makes up their own rules whether they are constitutional or not BUT they signed to abide by those rules. They are making it really hard for the men and women with leases that are following the rules.
\
The Bundys are also fighting for those guys who are playing by the rules which makes them a double edged sword to me. As badly as I do not want to support them, I see the struggles of our local guys because of mustangs, frogs, turtles and sage grouse.
As for Finicum's "useless death"; no death is ever useless. They all carry meaning and importance. We can learn from every death just as we can learn from every life.
Grouping all ranchers into a statement as vague and uninformed as this is ludicrous, it's like saying all barrel horses are psychotic time bombs waiting to blow up. Please research and see what's really going on out here. Look at all sides and not just that of the national media, who is bought and paid for by the Federal Government.
Edited by cyount2009 2016-03-11 12:13 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Vickie - 2016-03-10 5:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
Seriously? What would Jesus do? What WOULD Jesus do? He would not cast judgment, he would not murder a man over cows, dirt and taxes! There is no religion in politics and whether we like it or not this IS a political issue. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | cyount2009 - 2016-03-11 12:09 PM
Silly Filly - 2016-03-11 11:28 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them?
They had signed federal leases and then refused to pay the Federal Government. Instead they attempted to pay the State, which by means of the Constitution is the rightful owner of the land. The State refused the payments because the contract was not signed with them I stand with the ranchers who are legitimately paying their leases to the institution and not getting to use the land they have paid for. This is the problem I have in supporting the Bundys. They have singed with the Federal Government and not the state. They have not paid their leases and now the government wants them off the property. The government makes up their own rules whether they are constitutional or not BUT they signed to abide by those rules. They are making it really hard for the men and women with leases that are following the rules.
\ The Bundys are also fighting for those guys who are playing by the rules which makes them a double edged sword to me. As badly as I do not want to support them, I see the struggles of our local guys because of mustangs, frogs, turtles and sage grouse. As for Finicum's "useless death"; no death is ever useless. They all carry meaning and importance. We can learn from every death just as we can learn from every life. Grouping all ranchers into a statement as vague and uninformed as this is ludicrous, it's like saying all barrel horses are psychotic time bombs waiting to blow up. Please research and see what's really going on out here. Look at all sides and not just that of the national media, who is bought and paid for by the Federal Government.
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything??????????
Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution!
Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge! | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything?????????? Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution! Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge!
Could you please either copy and paste that information from the Constitution or provide the Article/Section etc.? I could find nothing and was too lazy to keep looking....LOL | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | NJJ - 2016-03-11 6:04 PM foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything?????????? Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution! Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge! Could you please either copy and paste that information from the Constitution or provide the Article/Section etc.? I could find nothing and was too lazy to keep looking....LOL
Article 1, section 8, clause 17 | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-03-11 7:21 PM
NJJ - 2016-03-11 6:04 PM foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything?????????? Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution! Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge! Could you please either copy and paste that information from the Constitution or provide the Article/Section etc.? I could find nothing and was too lazy to keep looking....LOL
Article 1, section 8, clause 17
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | ThreeCorners - 2016-03-11 7:21 PM NJJ - 2016-03-11 6:04 PM foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything?????????? Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution! Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge! Could you please either copy and paste that information from the Constitution or provide the Article/Section etc.? I could find nothing and was too lazy to keep looking....LOL Article 1, section 8, clause 17
KrisAnn Hall is a constitutional attorney. She has a talk radio show, has written numerous books, has a website, and you can find her on facebook. Here she did a youtube video and explains in great detail and very easy to understand Article 1, section 8, clause 17 of the US Constitution. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—
The text as requested.
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | foundation horse - 2016-03-11 7:32 PM To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;— The text as requested.
Thanks....I was too lazy to hunt....LOL....and I am sure others would like to read it too! | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | NJJ - 2016-03-11 8:31 PM
foundation horse - 2016-03-11 7:32 PM To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;— The text as requested.
Thanks....I was too lazy to hunt....LOL....and I am sure others would like to read it too!
 | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | Vickie - 2016-03-10 5:44 PM
A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
I thought that was done by "Blood, Sweat, and Tears". | |
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     Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bear - 2016-03-12 9:20 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 5:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD? I thought that was done by "Blood, Sweat, and Tears".
It was actually done by Billie Holiday
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | 1DSoon - 2016-03-12 9:40 AM Bear - 2016-03-12 9:20 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 5:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD? I thought that was done by "Blood, Sweat, and Tears". It was actually done by Billie Holiday
Who's that? | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Let me ask y'all folks something that are in disagreement with this thread. Do y'all believe in the Constitution? | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
                    Location: In the Hills of Texas | foundation horse - 2016-03-12 10:34 AM Let me ask y'all folks something that are in disagreement with this thread. Do y'all believe in the Constitution?
People believe in the Constitution when it fits their needs. Obama is a perfect example of this. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | 1DSoon - 2016-03-12 9:40 AM
Bear - 2016-03-12 9:20 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 5:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD? I thought that was done by "Blood, Sweat, and Tears".
It was actually done by Billie Holiday
Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. It was a Blood Sweat and Tears hit when I was a kid. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Nevertooold - 2016-03-12 12:52 PM foundation horse - 2016-03-12 10:34 AM Let me ask y'all folks something that are in disagreement with this thread. Do y'all believe in the Constitution? People believe in the Constitution when it fits their needs. Obama is a perfect example of this.
Yep. It's the whole liberal left. They only believe and give relevance to the constitution when it suits them. | |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
        
| foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
cyount2009 - 2016-03-11 12:09 PM
Silly Filly - 2016-03-11 11:28 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them?
They had signed federal leases and then refused to pay the Federal Government. Instead they attempted to pay the State, which by means of the Constitution is the rightful owner of the land. The State refused the payments because the contract was not signed with them I stand with the ranchers who are legitimately paying their leases to the institution and not getting to use the land they have paid for. This is the problem I have in supporting the Bundys. They have singed with the Federal Government and not the state. They have not paid their leases and now the government wants them off the property. The government makes up their own rules whether they are constitutional or not BUT they signed to abide by those rules. They are making it really hard for the men and women with leases that are following the rules.
\ The Bundys are also fighting for those guys who are playing by the rules which makes them a double edged sword to me. As badly as I do not want to support them, I see the struggles of our local guys because of mustangs, frogs, turtles and sage grouse. As for Finicum's "useless death"; no death is ever useless. They all carry meaning and importance. We can learn from every death just as we can learn from every life. Grouping all ranchers into a statement as vague and uninformed as this is ludicrous, it's like saying all barrel horses are psychotic time bombs waiting to blow up. Please research and see what's really going on out here. Look at all sides and not just that of the national media, who is bought and paid for by the Federal Government.
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything??????????
Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution!
Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge!
Ummm, I know that you can't believe everything you read, but it seems like I read that the root of the Bundy issue was/is that Mr Bundy signed a lease agreement with the state years BEFORE the BLM was ever created. That he did NOT sign another with the BLM , that the lease was grandfathered or something like that, so Mr Bundy continued to try to pay the state and put said payments into escrow pending a legal solution. The BLM put their heels in to the ground (with a particular politician to benefit directly if he could acquire Bundy's deeded land when Mr Bundy cannot pay all the fines the BLM is heaping on the bill). | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | rodeoveteran - 2016-03-13 1:55 PM
foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
cyount2009 - 2016-03-11 12:09 PM
Silly Filly - 2016-03-11 11:28 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them?
They had signed federal leases and then refused to pay the Federal Government. Instead they attempted to pay the State, which by means of the Constitution is the rightful owner of the land. The State refused the payments because the contract was not signed with them I stand with the ranchers who are legitimately paying their leases to the institution and not getting to use the land they have paid for. This is the problem I have in supporting the Bundys. They have singed with the Federal Government and not the state. They have not paid their leases and now the government wants them off the property. The government makes up their own rules whether they are constitutional or not BUT they signed to abide by those rules. They are making it really hard for the men and women with leases that are following the rules.
\ The Bundys are also fighting for those guys who are playing by the rules which makes them a double edged sword to me. As badly as I do not want to support them, I see the struggles of our local guys because of mustangs, frogs, turtles and sage grouse. As for Finicum's "useless death"; no death is ever useless. They all carry meaning and importance. We can learn from every death just as we can learn from every life. Grouping all ranchers into a statement as vague and uninformed as this is ludicrous, it's like saying all barrel horses are psychotic time bombs waiting to blow up. Please research and see what's really going on out here. Look at all sides and not just that of the national media, who is bought and paid for by the Federal Government.
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything??????????
Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution!
Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge!
Ummm, I know that you can't believe everything you read, but it seems like I read that the root of the Bundy issue was/is that Mr Bundy signed a lease agreement with the state years BEFORE the BLM was ever created. That he did NOT sign another with the BLM , that the lease was grandfathered or something like that, so Mr Bundy continued to try to pay the state and put said payments into escrow pending a legal solution. The BLM put their heels in to the ground (with a particular politician to benefit directly if he could acquire Bundy's deeded land when Mr Bundy cannot pay all the fines the BLM is heaping on the bill ).
This scenario makes more sense than anything else that has been presented.
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-03-12 12:52 PM
foundation horse - 2016-03-12 10:34 AM Let me ask y'all folks something that are in disagreement with this thread. Do y'all believe in the Constitution?
People believe in the Constitution when it fits their needs. Obama is a perfect example of this.
Speaking of this only applying on a convenience basis, I have been involved in quite the discussion on a FaceBook Thread of a friend of mine who has Sanders Supporters for friends. The Sanders Supporters (to date) have not even attempted to touch the Constitutional Issues surrounding Bernie Great Plan of increased taxes to support health care and a gradual minimum wage increase to $15 hour over four years......................
I have repeatedly mentioned Economics and used The Soviet Union's collapse along with Venezuela's current implosion to illustrate how Bernie Brand of "Democratic Socialism" does not work or follow The Constitution. They have earplugs in! | |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
      
| rodeoveteran - 2016-03-13 1:55 PM
foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM
cyount2009 - 2016-03-11 12:09 PM
Silly Filly - 2016-03-11 11:28 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them?
They had signed federal leases and then refused to pay the Federal Government. Instead they attempted to pay the State, which by means of the Constitution is the rightful owner of the land. The State refused the payments because the contract was not signed with them I stand with the ranchers who are legitimately paying their leases to the institution and not getting to use the land they have paid for. This is the problem I have in supporting the Bundys. They have singed with the Federal Government and not the state. They have not paid their leases and now the government wants them off the property. The government makes up their own rules whether they are constitutional or not BUT they signed to abide by those rules. They are making it really hard for the men and women with leases that are following the rules.
\ The Bundys are also fighting for those guys who are playing by the rules which makes them a double edged sword to me. As badly as I do not want to support them, I see the struggles of our local guys because of mustangs, frogs, turtles and sage grouse. As for Finicum's "useless death"; no death is ever useless. They all carry meaning and importance. We can learn from every death just as we can learn from every life. Grouping all ranchers into a statement as vague and uninformed as this is ludicrous, it's like saying all barrel horses are psychotic time bombs waiting to blow up. Please research and see what's really going on out here. Look at all sides and not just that of the national media, who is bought and paid for by the Federal Government.
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything??????????
Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution!
Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge!
Ummm, I know that you can't believe everything you read, but it seems like I read that the root of the Bundy issue was/is that Mr Bundy signed a lease agreement with the state years BEFORE the BLM was ever created. That he did NOT sign another with the BLM , that the lease was grandfathered or something like that, so Mr Bundy continued to try to pay the state and put said payments into escrow pending a legal solution. The BLM put their heels in to the ground (with a particular politician to benefit directly if he could acquire Bundy's deeded land when Mr Bundy cannot pay all the fines the BLM is heaping on the bill ).
Ahh Bundy Never put any money in escrow I looked that up last year when this was all over the news. He did try to pay it to the state but they refused to take it. While I agree with Bundy's fight on this matter he has been his worst enemy in this by acting as his own attorney. A lot of this could have been avoided if he had hired a good attorney. Now as to the fact that this should be state land and not the Federal Gov. I totally agree. I do agree that there may be an attempt to take his deeded land. If you look in to the surrounding land there has been several swaps between the state and the Fed's that end up in developer's hands and some are traced back to good old Harry Reed. It's all there to look up on the county records go have a look. Bundy's deeded land does hold quite a value it has a lot of river frontage that has access to lake mead and that is rare in Nev. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
          Location: Bastrop, Texas | I wish someone could post one of those maps of the U.S., including Alaska, showing how much of the land is federally owned. It's staggering. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
     Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-03-13 5:31 PM rodeoveteran - 2016-03-13 1:55 PM foundation horse - 2016-03-11 5:55 PM cyount2009 - 2016-03-11 12:09 PM Silly Filly - 2016-03-11 11:28 AM Vickie - 2016-03-10 4:44 PM A song that has been an inspiration to me is CCR: God Bless the Child Who Has His Own. If you do not own the land you have no right to it. If you are renting, you don't own it and you don't control it. Ranchers need to wake up and face it. Your landlord can pull your lease if you do not pay your rent, just like anyone in an apartment. Please, no more useless deaths. WWJD?
What kind of a landlord refuses to take your payment for their lease, and then claims that you won't pay them?
They had signed federal leases and then refused to pay the Federal Government. Instead they attempted to pay the State, which by means of the Constitution is the rightful owner of the land. The State refused the payments because the contract was not signed with them
I stand with the ranchers who are legitimately paying their leases to the institution and not getting to use the land they have paid for. This is the problem I have in supporting the Bundys. They have singed with the Federal Government and not the state. They have not paid their leases and now the government wants them off the property. The government makes up their own rules whether they are constitutional or not BUT they signed to abide by those rules. They are making it really hard for the men and women with leases that are following the rules. \
The Bundys are also fighting for those guys who are playing by the rules which makes them a double edged sword to me. As badly as I do not want to support them, I see the struggles of our local guys because of mustangs, frogs, turtles and sage grouse.
As for Finicum's "useless death"; no death is ever useless. They all carry meaning and importance. We can learn from every death just as we can learn from every life.
Grouping all ranchers into a statement as vague and uninformed as this is ludicrous, it's like saying all barrel horses are psychotic time bombs waiting to blow up. Please research and see what's really going on out here. Look at all sides and not just that of the national media, who is bought and paid for by the Federal Government.
I understand your perspective of the conflict between who Bundy had a contract with. However, w/o a signed agreement, which to the best of my knowledge, Cliven Bundy had not signed in over ten years, then just WHO has authority to collect anything?????????? Also, Constitutionally Speaking The Federal Government has no right to own land outside 10 miles in Washington D.C. as Forts and Ports. People need to do the research on just i.e. READ The Constitution! Now, I am not defending or supporting Cliven Bundy per se, but I have read Storm Over Rangelands by Wayne Hage of Nevada as well. From there I started digging into the background of The BLM and NFS. Their predecessor is The General Land Office whose sole responsibility was to SELL OFF The Real Estate in their charge! Ummm, I know that you can't believe everything you read, but it seems like I read that the root of the Bundy issue was/is that Mr Bundy signed a lease agreement with the state years BEFORE the BLM was ever created. That he did NOT sign another with the BLM , that the lease was grandfathered or something like that, so Mr Bundy continued to try to pay the state and put said payments into escrow pending a legal solution. The BLM put their heels in to the ground (with a particular politician to benefit directly if he could acquire Bundy's deeded land when Mr Bundy cannot pay all the fines the BLM is heaping on the bill ). Ahh Bundy Never put any money in escrow I looked that up last year when this was all over the news. He did try to pay it to the state but they refused to take it. While I agree with Bundy's fight on this matter he has been his worst enemy in this by acting as his own attorney. A lot of this could have been avoided if he had hired a good attorney. Now as to the fact that this should be state land and not the Federal Gov. I totally agree. I do agree that there may be an attempt to take his deeded land. If you look in to the surrounding land there has been several swaps between the state and the Fed's that end up in developer's hands and some are traced back to good old Harry Reed. It's all there to look up on the county records go have a look. Bundy's deeded land does hold quite a value it has a lot of river frontage that has access to lake mead and that is rare in Nev.
Cliven DID pay the fed for quite some time...as his father did before...it started in 1932 (?) with the Taylor Grazing Act which seemed 'desperately' needed at the time due to the range wars...especially in Wyoming (google Tom Horn). The ranchers were grateful for the 'intrusion' and a 'fix'...even though it wasn't Constitutional. Do know that before 1913 we had no income tax, therefore, it was to the governments benefit to sell the land as required...after that? Not so much. The fed lost all interest in completing the sell of the 'public lands'. It morphed into a da** mess! One that was never intended...so here we are...Cliven was paying as were all his neighbors...it was how they expected it to be done. Then one day the gov't decided that the Desert Tortoise was more important than the ranchers and refused their leases. You know...the 'endangered species act'. THAT is when Cliven tore up the lease that he claims to this day wasn't worth the paper it was written on anyhow! And I agree. Out of 53 ranchers he's the ONLY one left in that area! All the others gave up...he didn't. He has nothing to gain...except going to his Maker 'debt free' knowing he gave all. I obviously have tremendous respect for the Bundy's. No...I'm not LDS. But, I know sincere people when I meet them. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Try this again. Graphic provided by the American Lands Council.
(AmericanLandsCouncilMap.jpg)
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AmericanLandsCouncilMap.jpg (99KB - 179 downloads)
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands.
(State vs Federal Management Costs vs Return.jpg)
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State vs Federal Management Costs vs Return.jpg (26KB - 191 downloads)
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands.
I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM
OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands.
I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs.
One of the first things one must do is follow the money.
Edited by OregonBR 2016-03-15 12:31 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1898
       
| Here is the latest in the news regarding Finicum
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-...
And it looks like Sheriff Palmer, the sheriff they were trying to go meet is under investigation now too.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/oregon_standoff_a... | |
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   Location: In my own little world | OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:08 AM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money.
Not taking a stand but just throwing this out there as I have read some articles recently that made me wonder. Is anyone sure all states want the Federal lands turned over to them? I can see a huge amt of expenses that go with it that some states can not afford to pay. Fire suppression is one thing that comes to mind.
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
    Location: In The Land of Cotton | ropenrun - 2016-03-15 3:58 PM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:08 AM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money. Not taking a stand but just throwing this out there as I have read some articles recently that made me wonder. Is anyone sure all states want the Federal lands turned over to them? I can see a huge amt of expenses that go with it that some states can not afford to pay. Fire suppression is one thing that comes to mind. I can see your point. Especially the fire supression. But, as someone who has family that is in control of burns in the western states, (working for the feds) they want the feds out of their hair. The East Coast has no business and doesn't know sh..........about burning. We lose more acres because the East coast won't allow controlled burns. And, to top it off too, because they (the East Coast) wants to make sure that every frog, etc., is allowed to reproduce.
Edited by 3canstorun 2016-03-15 3:07 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | OregonBR - 2016-03-15 12:08 PM
MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM
OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands.
I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs.
One of the first things one must do is follow the money.
There are multiple reports that there are valuable natural resources (uranium) under the surface of many of these unconstitutionally held federal lands. And many of the career politicians (Harry Reid & Hillary Clinton) have had their hands in illegal backroom deals to sell their minerals to foreign powers.................................
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 Own It and Move On
      Location: The edge of no where | foundation horse - 2016-03-17 8:35 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 12:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money. There are multiple reports that there are valuable natural resources (uranium ) under the surface of many of these unconstitutionally held federal lands. And many of the career politicians (Harry Reid & Hillary Clinton ) have had their hands in illegal backroom deals to sell their minerals to foreign powers.................................
It seems like the uraium trail isn't that difficult to trace to Clinton. Good grief, even the NY Times wrote about it.
I guess my question is this - Why doesn't anyone care? How can you vote for Hillary knowing this? How can it be stopped? | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | This lady is so good at explaining the purpose of the constitution and how our government has been subverting it for a long time. I listened to this one just now. It's awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjb4is33rVQ
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
          Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | MS2011 - 2016-03-17 9:37 AM foundation horse - 2016-03-17 8:35 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 12:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money. There are multiple reports that there are valuable natural resources (uranium ) under the surface of many of these unconstitutionally held federal lands. And many of the career politicians (Harry Reid & Hillary Clinton ) have had their hands in illegal backroom deals to sell their minerals to foreign powers................................. It seems like the uraium trail isn't that difficult to trace to Clinton. Good grief, even the NY Times wrote about it.
I guess my question is this - Why doesn't anyone care? How can you vote for Hillary knowing this? How can it be stopped?
I was reading a conversation on FB earlier and someone brought up Benghazi. A Hillary supporter came back with "it's just noise". So, my take from that is the people who want to vote for her have their fingers in their ears singing lalalalalalala. | |
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 Tried and True
Posts: 21185
         Location: Where I am happiest | Three 4 Luck - 2016-03-17 1:29 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-17 9:37 AM foundation horse - 2016-03-17 8:35 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 12:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money. There are multiple reports that there are valuable natural resources (uranium ) under the surface of many of these unconstitutionally held federal lands. And many of the career politicians (Harry Reid & Hillary Clinton ) have had their hands in illegal backroom deals to sell their minerals to foreign powers................................. It seems like the uraium trail isn't that difficult to trace to Clinton. Good grief, even the NY Times wrote about it.
I guess my question is this - Why doesn't anyone care? How can you vote for Hillary knowing this? How can it be stopped? I was reading a conversation on FB earlier and someone brought up Benghazi. A Hillary supporter came back with "it's just noise". So, my take from that is the people who want to vote for her have their fingers in their ears singing lalalalalalala. Exactly....and just like they did and still do about Obama and the same now with Trump.
Edited by ThreeCorners 2016-03-17 2:00 PM
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | MS2011 - 2016-03-17 9:37 AM
foundation horse - 2016-03-17 8:35 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 12:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money. There are multiple reports that there are valuable natural resources (uranium ) under the surface of many of these unconstitutionally held federal lands. And many of the career politicians (Harry Reid & Hillary Clinton ) have had their hands in illegal backroom deals to sell their minerals to foreign powers.................................
It seems like the uraium trail isn't that difficult to trace to Clinton. Good grief, even the NY Times wrote about it.
I guess my question is this - Why doesn't anyone care? How can you vote for Hillary knowing this? How can it be stopped?
In the most simplest of terms, APATHY & STUPIDITY. | |
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  Semper Fi
             Location: North Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-03-17 1:29 PM
MS2011 - 2016-03-17 9:37 AM foundation horse - 2016-03-17 8:35 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 12:08 PM MS2011 - 2016-03-15 9:36 AM OregonBR - 2016-03-15 11:32 AM This one shows the difference between the state managed lands and the federal managed lands. I don't understand the justification for not returning the lands to the states. We're broke anyway as a country - this is costing taxpayers far too much. That's just the tip of the iceberg. There is a much more going on. I'm glad that you see what some people refuse to see. The government hasn't worked for the people for a while now. The elites are trying to get richer off our backs. One of the first things one must do is follow the money. There are multiple reports that there are valuable natural resources (uranium ) under the surface of many of these unconstitutionally held federal lands. And many of the career politicians (Harry Reid & Hillary Clinton ) have had their hands in illegal backroom deals to sell their minerals to foreign powers................................. It seems like the uraium trail isn't that difficult to trace to Clinton. Good grief, even the NY Times wrote about it.
I guess my question is this - Why doesn't anyone care? How can you vote for Hillary knowing this? How can it be stopped?
I was reading a conversation on FB earlier and someone brought up Benghazi. A Hillary supporter came back with "it's just noise". So, my take from that is the people who want to vote for her have their fingers in their ears singing lalalalalalala.
I used the term 'earplugs' in an earlier post in regards to debating Bernie Sanders Supporters. I still say apathy and stupidity. | |
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