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Expert
Posts: 1446
  
Location: California | I'm wanting to have a genuine discussion as to why people have issues with other people that sell horses for a living.
The horse community where I'm from, although big, everyone knows pretty much everyone. There's a person who is known for buying, training and then selling horses. I hear a lot of people behind their back calling them a horse trader, in a bad way. I've rode some horses this person has trained, and I really liked how they worked! Been around a lot of them. This person also trains outside horses.
I'm just curious, why is it so offensive that a person buys, trains and sells horses for a living? Is it only acceptable to sell a horse once every couple years?
I know there's bad horse flippers out there, but I just don't get why everyone has to be put in that category? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
Location: Alabama | They aren't all bad. There is a local gal near me who picks up junk horses that most people wouldn't bat an eye at. Often she gets them for free or just almost free. She puts 90-180 days in them. Fattens them up, shines them up, gets them riding nice, and turns a nice profit. She is a straight up trader/flipper but she has always been honest about it and she isn't trying to take anyone's arm off when she sells. On the other side of the coin there are some folks in my neck of the woods who will pick up half broke 4d horses for $2000 and a week later advertise them as "1-2D, rodeo potential, anyone can ride, etc" and slap a $15k price tag on them. It's folks like that who give all trainer/traders a bad name.
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| it's not offensive to buy, train, sell a horse. It is however, when you buy sh*t, cover it up, and then sell at as box of chocolates...
There's lots of dirty, dirty tricks out there that people do and unfortunately it causes bad raps for everyone.
Edited by FlyingJT 2016-02-23 10:56 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 614
Location: Usually on my horse | Its the dishonest horse traders that lie, cheat and steal from sincere, trusting people that gives other "horse traders" the bad rap. As I recently found out with some liars that I dealt with in Kentucky. I can't believe they even have the gall to show their faces on here anymore. There is nothing wrong with being in that business if you keep it honest and don't rip people off like many horse traders do. |
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 Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | FlyingJT - 2016-02-23 10:55 AM it's not offensive to buy, train, sell a horse. It is however, when you buy sh*t, cover it up, and then sell at as box of chocolates... There's lots of dirty, dirty tricks out there that people do and unfortunately it causes bad raps for everyone.
Exactly!! Hence the reason "Horse Trader" has a negative connotation!
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| To me a horse trader keeps the horse less then 30 days. They are in it to make an easy buck, and will do this at the expense of a gullible buyer. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2128
| *almost there* - 2016-02-23 10:34 AM I'm wanting to have a genuine discussion as to why people have issues with other people that sell horses for a living. The horse community where I'm from, although big, everyone knows pretty much everyone. There's a person who is known for buying, training and then selling horses. I hear a lot of people behind their back calling them a horse trader, in a bad way. I've rode some horses this person has trained, and I really liked how they worked! Been around a lot of them. This person also trains outside horses. I'm just curious, why is it so offensive that a person buys, trains and sells horses for a living? Is it only acceptable to sell a horse once every couple years? I know there's bad horse flippers out there, but I just don't get why everyone has to be put in that category?
Thank you for making this point!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | scwebster - 2016-02-23 10:12 AM *almost there* - 2016-02-23 10:34 AM I'm wanting to have a genuine discussion as to why people have issues with other people that sell horses for a living. The horse community where I'm from, although big, everyone knows pretty much everyone. There's a person who is known for buying, training and then selling horses. I hear a lot of people behind their back calling them a horse trader, in a bad way. I've rode some horses this person has trained, and I really liked how they worked! Been around a lot of them. This person also trains outside horses. I'm just curious, why is it so offensive that a person buys, trains and sells horses for a living? Is it only acceptable to sell a horse once every couple years? I know there's bad horse flippers out there, but I just don't get why everyone has to be put in that category? Thank you for making this point!!!
Do you do this as a business? What have your experiences been? |
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| What I've learned from buying a few from the local horse traders by us is that they actually do not keep a horse long enough or spend enough time with them to really know what the horse is.
Ours are not intentionally being dishonest. They are only telling you the "story" that came with the horse and you should always have this in your mind when you are dealing with them.
I bought a few goods ones and a few bad ones. It's a gamble. |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | I know it's a couple bad seeds ruining it for everyone, but unless you are a power house name, I've seen a lot of people talking negative of a lot of smaller businesses, who in my opinion, produce nice horses. Guess I'm just trying to understand why everyone gets the reputation. |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | LAC - 2016-02-23 10:27 AM
What I've learned from buying a few from the local horse traders by us is that they actually do not keep a horse long enough or spend enough time with them to really know what the horse is.
Ours are not intentionally being dishonest. They are only telling you the "story" that came with the horse and you should always have this in your mind when you are dealing with them.
I bought a few goods ones and a few bad ones. It's a gamble.
Great insight. How long did these people have them before selling? Month? 3 months? |
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| *almost there* - 2016-02-23 12:31 PM
I know it's a couple bad seeds ruining it for everyone, but unless you are a power house name, I've seen a lot of people talking negative of a lot of smaller businesses, who in my opinion, produce nice horses. Guess I'm just trying to understand why everyone gets the reputation.
Everyone earns their "own" reputation... good or bad! Negative talk is because someone got shafted on a deal. |
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| Time various. They only keep them as long as they have to.
I bought a little doc bar mare that turned out to be a superstar. My daughter heads, heels, ties goats, and runs barrels and poles on her. We bought her the night the one guy got her in. She came through one of the local sales. I traced her back to the owners who actually gave her away as a 2 year old thinking she would be too small. (She's a doc bar so she's short but stout). People turned her out for a few years then decided they didn't want her and sent her to the sale. He picked her up there and we saw her. Rode her and took a chance and bought her.
Whereas we went and tried another that came through him that he had a few weeks and ridden and said she was supposed to be an awesome barrel horse. My husband got on her, rode her two steps, got right off and handed him back the reins. He knew right away she was nothing we wanted to mess with.
You have to go there and form your own opinion and put little stock in what they are telling you.
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | FlyingJT - 2016-02-23 10:41 AM *almost there* - 2016-02-23 12:31 PM I know it's a couple bad seeds ruining it for everyone, but unless you are a power house name, I've seen a lot of people talking negative of a lot of smaller businesses, who in my opinion, produce nice horses. Guess I'm just trying to understand why everyone gets the reputation. Everyone earns their "own" reputation... good or bad! Negative talk is because someone got shafted on a deal.
I'm not sure I can agree to this. How many times have you heard something about someone and it being polar opposite of the truth? |
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Expert
Posts: 1857
| *almost there* - 2016-02-23 1:46 PM
FlyingJT - 2016-02-23 10:41 AM *almost there* - 2016-02-23 12:31 PM I know it's a couple bad seeds ruining it for everyone, but unless you are a power house name, I've seen a lot of people talking negative of a lot of smaller businesses, who in my opinion, produce nice horses. Guess I'm just trying to understand why everyone gets the reputation. Everyone earns their "own" reputation... good or bad! Negative talk is because someone got shafted on a deal.
Never.... |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| *almost there* - 2016-02-23 12:17 PM scwebster - 2016-02-23 10:12 AM *almost there* - 2016-02-23 10:34 AM I'm wanting to have a genuine discussion as to why people have issues with other people that sell horses for a living. The horse community where I'm from, although big, everyone knows pretty much everyone. There's a person who is known for buying, training and then selling horses. I hear a lot of people behind their back calling them a horse trader, in a bad way. I've rode some horses this person has trained, and I really liked how they worked! Been around a lot of them. This person also trains outside horses. I'm just curious, why is it so offensive that a person buys, trains and sells horses for a living? Is it only acceptable to sell a horse once every couple years? I know there's bad horse flippers out there, but I just don't get why everyone has to be put in that category? Thank you for making this point!!!
I have a career in the oil and gas industry, but my husbands full time job is training for the public/selling horse. We often buy prospects from sales or from horse people we know and further their training and eventually re-sale. We keep some for several months up to a couple of years. Some we get back home, start riding and within a couple of weeks someone has come by and asked to purchase them so we let them go if the money is right. The complete truth is always disclosed on everything we sell. We are honest horse people. We have many repeat customers for this reason. No one has called us "horse traders" that I am aware of...then again what people say behind our backs isnt really any of my business lol. When I hear the term I think of people who are very dishonest in their practices. Its not fair to label the honest ones as horse traders...just because someone makes their living buying and selling. I am glad you brought it up.You def seem to know the difference :) |
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Expert
Posts: 2531
Location: WI | I think this is kind of like linebreeding vs. inbreeding.
Linebreeding = good, inbreeding = bad
Trainers = good, traders = bad |
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Boot Detective
Posts: 1900
| The horse traders that lie unmercifully give our industry a bad name. A few things a potential buyer should pay attention to are ;
Ask the horses life history. Traders won't know or if the horse has a bad reputation, they will avoid answering that question.
Ask how many horses they sell in a year. or watch and see how many they have advertised for sale on a regular basis. More than a few, big red flag.
If they tend to ridicule the riders on the horses they have sold (that was a great horse but the girl just can't ride) that's horse trader talk. Good trainers will try their best to find a buyer that fits the horse. Good trainers hate to see their hard work wasted by a rider with no skills.
Go to their place. How many horses are there? Trainers may have 6-8 to ride every day. If they have dozens of horses, that can be a sign there are a bunch of "sale bRn rejects" there.
Talk to others that have bought from this person. Ask if the horse they bought clocked as advertised. Ask if it has had health/lameness issues soon after the purchase. Ask if they have to keep taking it back to be "fixed" over and over.
Prepurchase exams are not fool proof but I strongly recommend them. Include X-rays and a drug screen.
If it's a barrel horse, ride it AT A SHOW before you buy. I've seen some there ride like saints at home or the practice pen but they are outlaws at aa show. The horse "knows" the difference.
To the OP, horse traders have had the bad rep forever and always will. Sad but true. It seems like these days there are just a lot more of them. Some are peddling horses that came off the track that are usually not sound. Others are buying junk out of the weekly or monthly sales and trying to turn it for a big profit in a couple months. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 434
Location: Northwest Florida | It's sad that bad traders have given all people who sell for profit a bad name. I used to do it, just one or two horses at a time, but I was always honest. I see nothing wrong with people picking up a prospect, or a horse at a sale, putting some elbow grease in and reselling it.
I am proud of the horses I have resold. I know the situation that horse was in when I got it, and the home I sold it to, and I know that the quality of life of that horse improved tremendously because of what I did. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| From my recent horse shopping experience looking for that safe 3D horse for myself and willing to pay to find it but have no need to buy more than my ability to ride.
Horse trader: tells me about a 45K horse, tell her although I can afford it, I don't ride good enough to justify that price tag. She proceeds to tell me that if I can get him into a higher D he can pay for himself in a couple of years. Told her just because I was 3D didn't mean I was stupid.
I have looked at horses with trainers also, most are honest, one, I would not call outright dishonest but while disclosing horses info spun it in a way that was not really accurate.
I do a ton of research, contact past owners, look up all records available, never buy just off what someone tells me. I have no problem buying from someone who buys and sells for a living if I can verify the horses history. I am more than happy to pay a nice sum for a good horse.
Edited by rodeomom3 2016-02-24 11:33 AM
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 Expert
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Location: Where cold is the normal | There are some folks out there that just hate seeing ppl make money off of horses period, so no matter how much time money and training you stick into one, you'll never be worthy of that living you aim to make in the horse business..
Best policy plain and simple is to be as honest as can be and heck even have them sign a sale contract with full disclosure on the sale so it don't come back to bite you when the new owner has an issue no matter what it is.
This industry is not an easy one to work in let alone make an honest profit in. Lots of hate and ppl that lack in many different areas. Its easier for them to run the mouth then to educate themselves and APPLY it. |
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Expert
Posts: 2128
| ranchand153 - 2016-02-24 11:21 AM There are some folks out there that just hate seeing ppl make money off of horses period, so no matter how much time money and training you stick into one, you'll never be worthy of that living you aim to make in the horse business..
Best policy plain and simple is to be as honest as can be and heck even have them sign a sale contract with full disclosure on the sale so it don't come back to bite you when the new owner has an issue no matter what it is.
This industry is not an easy one to work in let alone make an honest profit in. Lots of hate and ppl that lack in many different areas. Its easier for them to run the mouth then to educate themselves and APPLY it.
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 Veteran
Posts: 158
| I feel like horse trainers actually TRAIN, and better the horse, and as a result price goes up. Horse TRADERS just better the horse by bs'ing, and hope someone comes along that buys their bs, and the horse. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| gunner07 - 2016-02-24 1:27 PM I feel like horse trainers actually TRAIN, and better the horse, and as a result price goes up. Horse TRADERS just better the horse by bs'ing, and hope someone comes along that buys their bs, and the horse.
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| FlyingJT - 2016-02-23 12:41 PM *almost there* - 2016-02-23 12:31 PM I know it's a couple bad seeds ruining it for everyone, but unless you are a power house name, I've seen a lot of people talking negative of a lot of smaller businesses, who in my opinion, produce nice horses. Guess I'm just trying to understand why everyone gets the reputation. Everyone earns their "own" reputation... good or bad! Negative talk is because someone got shafted on a deal.
OR ..... because people are jealous ..... |
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Veteran
Posts: 276
| My husband and I like to purchase at least one, maybe two prospects a year that we mostly only look to resell. We look for nice looking, papered, geldings 5-9yrs old that are gentle and have no vices, who simply just need a job. We do this because we can make more money than simply just riding for other people (which we also do). When it comes time to sell, we are as honest as we can be with potential buyers. I've learned that being overly honest wont scare serious buyers off and also protects you because they can't act like you didn't disclose everything after the fact. I encourage them to come try the horse multiple times. I also ask a lot of questions when the buyer comes because I want to know if they are "that" kind of person who bad mouths everyone out there (and yes those people do exist). I won't sell to them. There are plenty of buyers out there, and I don't have to get desperate to make a sale.
I don't think that selling a few horses a year automatically makes you a horse trader, and we get calls weekly from people looking for horses, so I don't feel like that is how we are branded. I think you have to beware of sellers whether they sell 10 horses a year or one every ten years. Dishonest people are everywhere, but there are still a lot of good people out there, and just because yes we are making money, doesn't mean that we didn't put A LOT of money's worth of training into that horse and you are not still getting a good deal.
I have also had to turn people down who want to consign their horses with us. Sometimes if they have soundness issues, vices, or are just priced too high in my opinion, I have to find a way to politely tell them no. I am not going to lie to get a horse sold, and I'm not going to waste both of our time on trying to sell a horse for a price I don't believe I can get. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| From experience, If you are looking at a horse through a trainer, most of the time they will only tell ya the basics. Then throw ya on and let ya decide for yourself. Horse trader: Wont stop talking about the horse and the BS comes spewing out of their mouth like a used car salesman. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | Even though I used to buy and sell horses when I was younger, I am a bit of a sucker for that type of business. I am also extremely honest when I buy to sell, mainly because I don't want to see that horse go down the road that I picked them up from. But being an honest seller works well, because the horses that I have "saved" have all gone to forever homes, and every once in a while I will catch up with those owners.. and wa-la, they still have that horse. I have seen horses that have had 7-8 owners in the last 10 years of their life. It makes me so sad.. but for the most part I have had a pretty good success rate.
But what gives a horse trade a bad name.. are the ones who pick up horses, and say how awesome they are and how great they are.. and they know them so well, even though they only have had them 2 weeks. One lady who was a trader (my first and last experience with them), she was a friend of a friend and I trusted my friend so I bought a 2D Gelding from her.. he knew the pattern, he was fast, didn't show any issues. He did have some pretty big physical blemishes on him, she showed me videos etc.. I got him for a steal. But when he got pulled off the trailer.. I couldn't send him back. He was 200 lbs underweight, his teeth needed to be done, he needed to be readjusted.. he looked like crap. So once again, here I was stuck saving another horse. Put weight back on him, got his feet done, his teeth done, saw the chiro, got him wormed etc. After 6 months he didn't look like the same horse. Finally put him on barrels.. found out he was blown up. Gave him a year off.. did other things with him.. but he ended up NOT being a 2D horse, just a reject blown up barrel/pole horse that didn't like to run. So after 2 years.. I finally sold him as a trail horse.
I'm sorry, but after that experience I am very leery and will not deal with any traders. I lost a lot of faith in people that trade and sell for a living. Granted he was a great, well minded horse. But It would have saved me a lot of money and time, if she would have just been honest about where she got him (the auction yard) and that she didn't known his background.
Edited by DashNDustem 2016-02-25 9:41 PM
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Horse Trainers vs Horse Traders