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 Expert
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Location: Somewhere around here | Why do we over bend our horses so much? I see if every barrel race I go to and as I'm watching Charmayne James's DVD in the background she's talking how we shouldn't be over bending our horses and asking for their nose and head so much. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 486
Location: CentralTexas | i think it all depends on the horse. My derby horse last year, if i asked him to bend to much, he would over turn and hit, so i had to keep him stiff. Now, I have a horse right now that if i don't make him warm up with his head down, he will crash every barrel, so i have to ask him to over bend. I also have a horse that i have run for 10 years who i ask to flex before every run, not too much, but he needs it. So i think its a personal preference on running style, and how the horse runs. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | I see a lot of horses ridden that the rider has a hold of the nose and face but the horse isn't bending at all through the body. I was watching a coach one time instruct her students to turn the nose in of the horse towards the barrel but didn't mention anything about bending the body (horse hit the can every time). Then I watched a lot of horses later that day where the face was turned but the body was going in a different direction. I found it quite interesting actually.
I think the term bend gets over used in the wrong context.
When I think bend I think the horse's eye/nose is slightly turned inwards, the ribcage is soft and slightly outwards, the horse maintains a solid balanced pace. The horse is tracking correctly and not bowing out or dropping a shoulder in.
Edited by RunNitroRun 2016-03-15 12:35 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 111
| RunNitroRun - 2016-03-15 11:34 AM
I see a lot of horses ridden that the rider has a hold of the nose and face but the horse isn't bending at all through the body. I was watching a coach one time instruct her students to turn the nose in of the horse towards the barrel but didn't mention anything about bending the body (horse hit the can every time). Then I watched a lot of horses later that day where the face was turned but the body was going in a different direction. I found it quite interesting actually.
I think the term bend gets over used in the wrong context.
When I think bend I think the horse's eye/nose is slightly turned inwards, the ribcage is soft and slightly outwards, the horse maintains a solid balanced pace. The horse is tracking correctly and not bowing out or dropping a shoulder in.
This^^^^
The flex in the rib cage starts with getting control of the nose and tipping it in, but many stop there, and often overfocus on that step without the rest of the body. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | I think people do it because they think that's what being "soft" and giving means, but its not "correct." JMO
In my experience a horse can't carry themselves in correct form with their head and necks overbent. However, if you ride a horse from behind (ride their butts instead of their faces) the head, neck, shoulders, and rib cage just all fall into the "right" place. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 239
| Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in. |
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Location: In my own little world | Take a look at the NFR videos of Linsdey Sears and Martha. She had her nose headed to the 1st barrel each time. She was doing it correctly of course but it was Marthsa's running style. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2128
| 2H~QH - 2016-03-15 2:03 PM Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in.
I have always been told "over exaggerate everything when going slow". |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| what i see sometimes is that people bend mostly the neck and not rib cage. you need to bend ribs first and neck later. and you dont have to keep them bent all the time. i see people loping circles with the head bent. we should be able to lope a circle more like little lines and then take one step over. like 3 strides straght then one step not having just the neck bent. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | 2H~QH - 2016-03-15 2:03 PM Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in.
Just wondering, how long in the training process do you overbend? Thanks! |
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Expert
Posts: 1631
Location: Somewhere around here | daisycake123 - 2016-03-15 6:58 PM
what i see sometimes is that people bend mostly the neck and not rib cage. you need to bend ribs first and neck later. and you dont have to keep them bent all the time. i see people loping circles with the head bent. we should be able to lope a circle more like little lines and then take one step over. like 3 strides straght then one step not having just the neck bent.
Agreed. I've been riding both of my horses lately like this (very different styles of runners) and they seemed so relieved I backed off the bending and trying to form them up so much. Doing a lot better on the pattern too. |
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Location: South Dakota | cecollins0811 - 2016-03-16 2:35 PM daisycake123 - 2016-03-15 6:58 PM what i see sometimes is that people bend mostly the neck and not rib cage. you need to bend ribs first and neck later. and you dont have to keep them bent all the time. i see people loping circles with the head bent. we should be able to lope a circle more like little lines and then take one step over. like 3 strides straght then one step not having just the neck bent. Agreed. I've been riding both of my horses lately like this (very different styles of runners ) and they seemed so relieved I backed off the bending and trying to form them up so much. Doing a lot better on the pattern too.
I agree that if we don't concern ourselves so much with bending, and focus on having a soft jaw instead, and allow the horses to move straighter, they would be happier, and we wouldn't be on their face so much. |
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Veteran
Posts: 239
| Timber Creek - 2016-03-16 7:36 AM 2H~QH - 2016-03-15 2:03 PM Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in. Just wondering, how long in the training process do you overbend? Thanks!
I do it when I first start them on the pattern until they are starting to shape themselves when they approach a barrel if that makes sense. Mine are broke to death before they see a barrel so they know how to move their neck, shoulder, rib, and hip independently first (otherwise this will be an exercise in futility).
Once I start high loping the pattern, I more or less give their heads back to them but will make small corrections as needed.
If I run into problems in a run that I need to fix in the practice pen, say one is dropping shoulder in and looking outside, I will go back to the overbend and I use counterbend as well.
LOL sorry for the novel. The short answer is: it varies for every horse. But once I am at the stage where they will lope a pattern and take responsibility, they get their noses back. And you'll find as you add speed, they will straighten out naturally.
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| i kinda was watch chris cox, he was talking abouyt this subject. i started doing what he said to my horse and found him not stiffer when i ran barrels. vets told me this was easier on the hocks and stifles.and i ride all my horses now even the prospects. the last one i trained was very bendy. also rode better when teachinging a neck rein.
Edited by daisycake123 2016-03-16 9:17 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | 2H~QH - 2016-03-16 5:02 PM Timber Creek - 2016-03-16 7:36 AM 2H~QH - 2016-03-15 2:03 PM Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in. Just wondering, how long in the training process do you overbend? Thanks!
Once I start high loping the pattern, I more or less give their heads back to them but will make small corrections as needed.
If I run into problems in a run that I need to fix in the practice pen, say one is dropping shoulder in and looking outside, I will go back to the overbend and I use counterbend as well.
LOL sorry for the novel. The short answer is: it varies for every horse. But once I am at the stage where they will lope a pattern and take responsibility, they get their noses back. And you'll find as you add speed, they will straighten out naturally.
Thank you! I've got one to pattern now and I know the last horse I patterned I just micromanaged the poor guy to death. I wasn't overbending the body like you are talking about but rather just messing with his head so much I didn't let him think for himself. This makes sense, overexagerate at first, then let them think for themselves. |
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 A very grounded girl
Posts: 5052
Location: Moving soon..... | I have a gelding that I cannot come in contact with his mouth through my run. I just give him his head and pick him up when we are done. He is Magnolia Bar bred and that is just the way that they are. He is very bendy, but I like it that way because it is easier on me. |
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Veteran
Posts: 239
| Timber Creek - 2016-03-17 7:09 AM 2H~QH - 2016-03-16 5:02 PM Timber Creek - 2016-03-16 7:36 AM 2H~QH - 2016-03-15 2:03 PM Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in. Just wondering, how long in the training process do you overbend? Thanks!
Once I start high loping the pattern, I more or less give their heads back to them but will make small corrections as needed.
If I run into problems in a run that I need to fix in the practice pen, say one is dropping shoulder in and looking outside, I will go back to the overbend and I use counterbend as well.
LOL sorry for the novel. The short answer is: it varies for every horse. But once I am at the stage where they will lope a pattern and take responsibility, they get their noses back. And you'll find as you add speed, they will straighten out naturally.
Good luck! LOL I am the queen of micromanaging my horses BUT I do this only so that if I have to correct something in a run I just give a cue and they respond. Once they have been "micromanaged" and KNOW the basics, I give them independence. |
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Expert
Posts: 1273
Location: South Dakota | 2H~QH - 2016-03-17 11:13 AM Timber Creek - 2016-03-17 7:09 AM 2H~QH - 2016-03-16 5:02 PM Timber Creek - 2016-03-16 7:36 AM 2H~QH - 2016-03-15 2:03 PM Can't speak for everyone else but when I am teaching one the pattern or doing slow work, I will overbend them - whole body, face/neck/rib/hips to make a C around the barrel. I do it to correct/prevent issues when I'm running. I find that when you add speed they will naturally straighten out (as it is impossible to run in a C shape) but by overbending them in slow work, when they speed up, they make a nice STRAIGHT turn i.e. they are moving their shoulders too. I find if I don't overbend in practice, when you add speed, they tend to look out and drop their shoulder in. Just wondering, how long in the training process do you overbend? Thanks!
Once I start high loping the pattern, I more or less give their heads back to them but will make small corrections as needed.
If I run into problems in a run that I need to fix in the practice pen, say one is dropping shoulder in and looking outside, I will go back to the overbend and I use counterbend as well.
LOL sorry for the novel. The short answer is: it varies for every horse. But once I am at the stage where they will lope a pattern and take responsibility, they get their noses back. And you'll find as you add speed, they will straighten out naturally.
Thanks! |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I get cracked up at these because its whatever works. Ppl have preferences and there are shades of black and white like right and wrong things to do but it is really fastest time wins. Some ppl and horses have different styles that mess together well and are COMPLETELY not correct by others view points but boy do they clock and win. Example Bling and Sarah....they win...bottom line it is the fastest time....sooooo whatever tuning or jockeying works for your and your pony you go with it. 
Edited by astreakinchic 2016-03-18 8:36 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I guess it depends on what exactly is being talked about. Really bending a horse in the ribs makes them move out and around. It is done to pick up the shoulders and keep them from diving in. This should be very useful in barrels or anytime you want your horse to not cut off corners.
But.....how many people don't do it correctly? A lot of people are bending their horses and thinking they are making them soft but in fact are teaching them to not drive from behind, not steer from the shoulders, and most importantly it can cause the horse to learn to bend his head laterally but NOT follow their nose.
Edited by Tdove 2016-03-18 8:41 AM
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  Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | Here at least I have noticed that most rodeo horses run stiffer than futurity or NBHA horses do.
For me personally, I had rather ride a horse that bends and is soft through their whole body. I've ridden a horse with a stiffer style and had trouble moving her over when I needed to.
For me personally, bending is about body control of the horse and softness and balance. Bending a good bit allows me to achieve those things. |
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Regular
Posts: 85
| This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I see so many people over bending their horses that it literally drives me up the wall. I think flexing plays a big part in your performance horse, however, I don't agree with flexing my horse every 5 minutes or having his nose almost touching his shoulder while I'm slow working him.
We have a few people around here who do it, I know quite a few men who start barrel horses who do it, I won't name any names, he does have some nice horses.
I sat through a clinic who demonstrated this a few months back, (not for myself, pure company) it was very interesting to hear someone else explain it like i see it.
A lot of horses that I see who are over bending, get hung up behind a barrel, or have just about no rate.... basically, all they know when you go to pick them up is, well, bend...and it's a trainwreck after that.
I don't really think we "know" why some do it, frankly I'm not even sure if some know why they do it. I think they just do... |
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
Location: Alberta | Fairweather - 2016-03-18 11:30 AM Here at least I have noticed that most rodeo horses run stiffer than futurity or NBHA horses do.
For me personally, I had rather ride a horse that bends and is soft through their whole body. I've ridden a horse with a stiffer style and had trouble moving her over when I needed to.
For me personally, bending is about body control of the horse and softness and balance. Bending a good bit allows me to achieve those things. This....I grew up riding alot of english so softness and balance in body control and more "contact" with my horses is how I ride
Everyone needs to find what works for them. If you watch any of the top futurity trainers, youll see they all have a different way to train and ride.....but they all still can win.
I prefer to focus on learning from others and taking what I can learn and adapt it to my riding.....
Edited by dream_chaser 2016-03-19 9:03 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1062
Location: Probably On the Road to the Next Barrel Race! | RunNitroRun - 2016-03-15 12:34 PM I see a lot of horses ridden that the rider has a hold of the nose and face but the horse isn't bending at all through the body. I was watching a coach one time instruct her students to turn the nose in of the horse towards the barrel but didn't mention anything about bending the body (horse hit the can every time). Then I watched a lot of horses later that day where the face was turned but the body was going in a different direction. I found it quite interesting actually. I think the term bend gets over used in the wrong context. When I think bend I think the horse's eye/nose is slightly turned inwards, the ribcage is soft and slightly outwards, the horse maintains a solid balanced pace. The horse is tracking correctly and not bowing out or dropping a shoulder in.
yes maam what you said, in a nutshell. end of subject! |
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Why as barrel racers...