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| So its been a while since I have seen anyone mention. How are the babies doing in the arena? If you cant register them, how are they able to compete (futurities ect)?
I am riding a mare out of him btw, she is really nice! |
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| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-16 7:33 AM So its been a while since I have seen anyone mention. How are the babies doing in the arena? If you cant register them, how are they able to compete (futurities ect)? I am riding a mare out of him btw, she is really nice!
They do not have to be registered to run at the futurities, age just has to be verified by a vet. I do think that Charmayne has some sort of way to track the babies, a registration system of sort. |
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| This mare has a dna certificate with the same info you would find on AQHA papers, but I heard they shut the place down that was doing it. |
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| The last update to his page on her website was pre the 2014 breeding season, even googling there isnt much information out there and nothing that is recent. As much of a martketer is Charmayne's husband is you would think they would be trying to promote him still. |
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Elite Veteran
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| I agree. Maybe because Charmayne doesnt futurity they are not as worried about marketability?
Edited by horsiace1025 2016-03-16 8:01 AM
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
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Location: Kansas | Anyway you dress it up he's a grade stallion.
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| Frodo - 2016-03-16 8:20 AM
Anyway you dress it up he's a grade stallion.
yes, and it doesnt matter as long as you can still compete on them. If the fastest horse in america was grade, everyone would still want to own it. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
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Location: Kansas | horsiace1025 - 2016-03-16 8:24 AM Frodo - 2016-03-16 8:20 AM Anyway you dress it up he's a grade stallion.
yes, and it doesnt matter as long as you can still compete on them. If the fastest horse in america was grade, everyone would still want to own it.
Still you're never change the fact that registration papers increase the value of your horse. Serious folks love a strong pedigree. |
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Elite Veteran
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| Frodo - 2016-03-16 8:26 AM
horsiace1025 - 2016-03-16 8:24 AM Frodo - 2016-03-16 8:20 AM Anyway you dress it up he's a grade stallion.
yes, and it doesnt matter as long as you can still compete on them. If the fastest horse in america was grade, everyone would still want to own it.
Yes values are primarily based on papers. At least in young horses for sure. |
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Location: rabbit run | horsiace1025 - 2016-03-16 7:33 AM So its been a while since I have seen anyone mention. How are the babies doing in the arena? If you cant register them, how are they able to compete (futurities ect)? I am riding a mare out of him btw, she is really nice!
By him. I always get corrected so just paying it forward.
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| They are registering the babies with the Half American Quarter Horses Registry.... The association does DNA verify .... http://www.halfquarterhorseregistry.com/
So I suppose in a way these horse are registered...just not AQHA..... |
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Elite Veteran
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| diggerdoo - 2016-03-16 9:08 AM
horsiace1025 - 2016-03-16 7:33 AM So its been a while since I have seen anyone mention. How are the babies doing in the arena? If you cant register them, how are they able to compete (futurities ect)? I am riding a mare out of him btw, she is really nice!
By him. I always get corrected so just paying it forward.
Sorry about that!  |
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Elite Veteran
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| Warriors Mom - 2016-03-16 9:10 AM
They are registering the babies with the Half American Quarter Horses Registry.... The association does DNA verify .... http://www.halfquarterhorseregistry.com/
So I suppose in a way these horse are registered...just not AQHA.....
That's awesome! I looked it up. It says their papers are accepted as "registration" papers everywhere except breed specific shows, including bfa and such. |
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 Living within my means
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Location: Randolph, Utah | There is one in the big piney Wyoming area, she's a nice mare and works a nice pattern! |
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| I sure do think it would be hard not to take Clayton around a set of cans. I would love to see some of his babies too. |
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 Toastest with the Mostest
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Location: That part of Texas | mbcruel21 - 2016-03-16 7:56 AM The last update to his page on her website was pre the 2014 breeding season, even googling there isnt much information out there and nothing that is recent. As much of a martketer is Charmayne's husband is you would think they would be trying to promote him still.
They may have backed off a little with Charmayne being involved in the ERA controversy from last year and going on now. Breeding to Clayton was a huge enough controversy/ordeal to some that maybe they only want to have one big thing like that on their plates. |
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Toastest with the Mostest
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Location: That part of Texas | JcNhEmI - 2016-03-16 10:05 AM There is one in the big piney Wyoming area, she's a nice mare and works a nice pattern!
I wish Dash4KJ would post more pictures and info about Boyfriend and her newest (which she did post was born back in January) but I don't blame her for not doing so after all the backlash she received when Boyfriend wasn't even here yet and she was posting about her experience. As my mom would say, "This is why we can't have nice things!" It's my hope that things will die down controversy wise so we can just enjoy what is there without the drama behind it all. I can't remember how long ago it was that they first started breeding Clayton (6 or 7 years?) but I figure we should start seeing one making a name for itself pretty soon, especially with all the good mares involving in the breedings. |
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  Friendly horse swapper
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Location: Buffalo, TX | Take the papers away from all of these barrel horses and just run em....fastest time wins....how's that for a new drama free concept... |
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| Cindy Hamilton - 2016-03-17 10:30 AM
Take the papers away from all of these barrel horses and just run em....fastest time wins....how's that for a new drama free concept...
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Cindy Hamilton - 2016-03-17 11:30 AM .fastest time wins..
isn't that how it works now?
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| I was a little skeptical at first, but after riding a Clayton dtr, I can tell you they are every bit as "normal" and nice as the next really great bred horse. She is super smart, has an attitude (in a good way), and a Chiropractor told me she is tough and will likely last a long time, which sounded a lot like Scamper to me. :)
I do really hope some more of them surface before long so people will maybe lose some of the judgemental thinking about the whole situation. |
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Friendly horse swapper
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Location: Buffalo, TX | 1DSoon - 2016-03-17 10:52 AM Cindy Hamilton - 2016-03-17 11:30 AM .fastest time wins.. isn't that how it works now?
It was a sarcastic remark trying to make the point that the clock is the only judge of "pedigree value" in a barrel horse....sorry you didn't "get it"... |
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 Keeper of the King Snake
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Location: Dubach, LA | I really expected to have seen multiple winners in the futurity pen by now. I know it's possible that some owners may have been looking down the long road at rodeo, but I surely believed most owners would try to showcase such exceptional breeding in futurities/derbies. |
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Location: California | CanCan - 2016-03-17 6:04 PM I really expected to have seen multiple winners in the futurity pen by now. I know it's possible that some owners may have been looking down the long road at rodeo, but I surely believed most owners would try to showcase such exceptional breeding in futurities/derbies.
I mean this genuinely, why hasn't Charmaine done futurity with one? Or derbys? To get it some street credit? Maybe someone knows? |
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 Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | Red Raider - 2016-03-17 11:04 AM JcNhEmI - 2016-03-16 10:05 AM There is one in the big piney Wyoming area, she's a nice mare and works a nice pattern! I wish Dash4KJ would post more pictures and info about Boyfriend and her newest (which she did post was born back in January) but I don't blame her for not doing so after all the backlash she received when Boyfriend wasn't even here yet and she was posting about her experience. As my mom would say, "This is why we can't have nice things!" It's my hope that things will die down controversy wise so we can just enjoy what is there without the drama behind it all. I can't remember how long ago it was that they first started breeding Clayton (6 or 7 years?) but I figure we should start seeing one making a name for itself pretty soon, especially with all the good mares involving in the breedings.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-17 8:49 PM
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| Please don't think I'm dumb, I have just never asked before, I've always tried figuring it out myself. Which, that didn't work.
With that said, why can't you register clayton's colts?
Is it because he's a clone of scamper? I understand that scamper is great, and there will truly never be another scamper no matter how you put it but I don't think that I could drop that kind of money on a stud that 1) i haven't seen prove himself, 2) you cant register his babies and 3) you never hear about him or his offspring...
I was and will always be a big fan of scamper, I think he was and is still great even being just a horse. However, before I breed to a stud with a high stud fee or stud fee of any sort, I like some background... As in, did this horse prove himself in the arena, behind a calf, on the pattern, etc, or did his off spring do so...
Call me crazy, but this is how I've looked at it for a long time.
Mainly because I have been in the position of breeding to a well bred stud, who had some offpsring and I think I got the dud.. LOL (He is very loved, he's just very lazy beyond what words could explain, otherwise I can't knock him whatsoever....) |
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Location: California | WranglersCinch - 2016-03-18 12:26 PM
Please don't think I'm dumb, I have just never asked before, I've always tried figuring it out myself. Which, that didn't work.
With that said, why can't you register clayton's colts?
Is it because he's a clone of scamper? I understand that scamper is great, and there will truly never be another scamper no matter how you put it but I don't think that I could drop that kind of money on a stud that 1) i haven't seen prove himself, 2) you cant register his babies and 3) you never hear about him or his offspring...
I was and will always be a big fan of scamper, I think he was and is still great even being just a horse. However, before I breed to a stud with a high stud fee or stud fee of any sort, I like some background... As in, did this horse prove himself in the arena, behind a calf, on the pattern, etc, or did his off spring do so...
Call me crazy, but this is how I've looked at it for a long time.
Mainly because I have been in the position of breeding to a well bred stud, who had some offpsring and I think I got the dud.. LOL (He is very loved, he's just very lazy beyond what words could explain, otherwise I can't knock him whatsoever....)
AQHA doesn't allow registration from cloned horses. There was a huge law suit about. There are multiple horses that are cloned aside from scamper, and a lot of different people had their hands in that pot. Took it to court and judge ruled in favor of AQHA. |
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 I Don't Brag
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| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-17 11:25 AM
I was a little skeptical at first, but after riding a Clayton dtr, I can tell you they are every bit as "normal" and nice as the next really great bred horse. She is super smart, has an attitude (in a good way), and a Chiropractor told me she is tough and will likely last a long time, which sounded a lot like Scamper to me. :)
I do really hope some more of them surface before long so people will maybe lose some of the judgemental thinking about the whole situation.
The only "judgmental" thing I have about the situation is that people with lots of money got their horses cloned, KNOWING that they were not eligible for registry then turned around and used their said money to try and force the AQHA to allow them to be registered as any quarter horse.
The jury is still out as whether not the offspring of clones will perform consistently at as high a level as true get off any given mare or stud. And note, Clayton was never given a chance to prove himself in the barrel pen for fear that he could not come close to Scamper's winning record.
That being said, you don't ride the papers and if I could win on one, I would be happy to do so. |
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 Goat Giver
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| Red Raider - 2016-03-17 10:04 AM JcNhEmI - 2016-03-16 10:05 AM There is one in the big piney Wyoming area, she's a nice mare and works a nice pattern! I wish Dash4KJ would post more pictures and info about Boyfriend and her newest (which she did post was born back in January) but I don't blame her for not doing so after all the backlash she received when Boyfriend wasn't even here yet and she was posting about her experience. As my mom would say, "This is why we can't have nice things!" It's my hope that things will die down controversy wise so we can just enjoy what is there without the drama behind it all. I can't remember how long ago it was that they first started breeding Clayton (6 or 7 years?) but I figure we should start seeing one making a name for itself pretty soon, especially with all the good mares involving in the breedings.
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Location: Southeast Louisiana | I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers.
As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM
I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers.
As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for.
Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility. |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
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Location: South Central Florida | rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
Curious Rockette, I never heard that. Is this something you read, or do you have personal experience? I always "heard" what the costs were and what the expenses involved were.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Swannranch - 2016-03-19 2:20 PM
rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
On RIDE TV they have a program called This Old Horse Carly Twisselman does the interview. She had one about Scamper, Tony Garritano said that VIAGEN was looking for a champion horse to clone and he thought Scamper was a great choice to promote. So they did it for free. Then Charmayne compared Scamper to Secretariat, which I thought was odd. But I enjoyed the stories about Scamper and some rare footage. |
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10D Crack Champion
| rockette - 2016-03-19 5:29 PM Swannranch - 2016-03-19 2:20 PM rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
On RIDE TV they have a program called This Old Horse Carly Twisselman does the interview. She had one about Scamper, Tony Garritano said that VIAGEN was looking for a champion horse to clone and he thought Scamper was a great choice to promote. So they did it for free. Then Charmayne compared Scamper to Secretariat, which I thought was odd. But I enjoyed the stories about Scamper and some rare footage.
I saw the same show on RideTV that rockette mentioned. They said Viagen cloned Scamper free of charge to Charmayne and Tony. I inferred from the interview it was a way to get Viagen's name out there and they were offering some free cloning to great horses in different disciplines for publicity. No one said that others were offered cloning for free, but it was free for Charmayne and Tony to clone Scamper. Viagen covered the costs. From the interview I think the fact it would not cost them anything financially played a big role in their decision to clone Scamper. I also think Viagen initially contacted Charmayne and Tony about cloning, but I could have misunderstood that part.
Edited by sodapop 2016-03-19 6:09 PM
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| They offer Ride TV on Dish but not on DirecTV. Looks like a great channel so I requested it on DirecTV. https://ridetv.com/see-whats-playing-now/this-old-horse/ |
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| Found it online but still can't find the episode about Scamper ... http://www.carbontv.com/shows/this-old-horse/ |
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| In my opinion, I wouldn't want to breed to a clone... like others have said, he is pretty much grade and unproven. But to me, the biggest thing is that he is still not scamper. There have been many great race horses, which after, the owners have bred the dam back to the same sire and produced a full sibling to the champion. Only to have the sibling turn out to be a complete dud! No matter how you put it, to me, clayton is not scamper. I might not be right, but that's just how I think about it :) |
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| I personally wouldn't want to breed to the clone just because I am not sure as to what the "old genes" effects are on the offspring. That is my whole stance on the issue, other than that since he is genetically identical to Scamper for breeding purposes I don't see the big deal. With brothers and sisters there are still genetic differences doesn't matter that they are full siblings, which could be why one is a champion and the other is a dud. Then again isn't it all based on luck   |
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 More bootie than waist!
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Location: Riding Crackhead. | I have the RideTV interview recorded on my DVR. Its been a while since I watched it but I do recall them saying it was free. I was surprised at that since I was thinking CJ had made the comments when they first did it about the cost. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Kansas and loving it | I am not wishing failure to anyone, I just find it interesting that other stallions are ripped to shreds or discounted, even though they have several futurity winners on the ground. Yet Clayton is handled with kid gloves. |
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I just read the headlines
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| rockette - 2016-03-20 9:22 AM
I am not wishing failure to anyone, I just find it interesting that other stallions are ripped to shreds or discounted, even though they have several futurity winners on the ground. Yet Clayton is handled with kid gloves.
I have had the same thought. |
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: Probably On the Road to the Next Barrel Race! | Cindy Hamilton - 2016-03-17 10:30 AM Take the papers away from all of these barrel horses and just run em....fastest time wins....how's that for a new drama free concept...
Yes, that would work in a perfect world...however...when I buy a young horse, if none had papers, how would I know how to invest my money? You may not can ride a set of papers, but you HIGHLY increase your odds of winning by knowing their parentage. And though I "know" Clayton's parentage, I would not personally breed to him for a couple of reasons, the MAIN one being....cloning weirds me out. I think it is taking human intervention into genetic selection a bit too far. That is MY opinion, I understand others may feel differently. Plus, Clayton has not "proven" himself as a "producer"...for a stud fee that high, I'd breed to KNOWN producers. Just seems like smart money to me, with my limited budget. |
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| rockette - 2016-03-19 5:29 PM
Swannranch - 2016-03-19 2:20 PM
rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
On RIDE TV they have a program called This Old Horse Carly Twisselman does the interview. She had one about Scamper, Tony Garritano said that VIAGEN was looking for a champion horse to clone and he thought Scamper was a great choice to promote. So they did it for free. Then Charmayne compared Scamper to Secretariat, which I thought was odd. But I enjoyed the stories about Scamper and some rare footage.
I enjoyed the show but also thought it was strange to compare scamper to Secretariat and pretty much say scamper was a better horse. She talked about how scamper held up all those years and said something about do you think Secretariat could have done that? Not her exact words but I feel that is what she meant. I don't think you can compare the two. Two different sports and breeds. Both were amazing horses but you can't just say one was a better athlete. |
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| pepsi97 - 2016-03-20 9:46 AM
rockette - 2016-03-19 5:29 PM
Swannranch - 2016-03-19 2:20 PM
rockette - 2016-03-19 10:34 AM Nita - 2016-03-19 5:59 AM I really wish AQHA had kept their standards as high as the Jockey Club. But, if they're going to allow AI, embryo transfers and gender selection, why not clones as well. It's a slippery slope that they've already slid down. I don't understand their logic in drawing a line in the sand *now* on this one thing... The clone does have the quarter horse genetics and the horse is represented by what's documented on its papers. As far as performance, each clone is an individual and they develop beyond the genetics based on their exposure and experiences. Cloning a champion doesn't mean it's going to automatically develop into a champion. I think the only reason they didn't run Clayton is because of how much it cost to get him on the ground and they didn't want to risk injury. They wanted Scamper's genetics, and that's what Clayton is here for. Charmayne didn't pay anything to get Scamper cloned. The only financial loss would be Clayton not being a 1D horse and losing credibility.
I happen to agree on the Clone issue. They could easily ad an addendum to the number just like the Yellow papers and the different numbering system for TB/QH crosses, Appendix horses. They can earn their way into regular registration, but What difference does it make if they can be verified.
On RIDE TV they have a program called This Old Horse Carly Twisselman does the interview. She had one about Scamper, Tony Garritano said that VIAGEN was looking for a champion horse to clone and he thought Scamper was a great choice to promote. So they did it for free. Then Charmayne compared Scamper to Secretariat, which I thought was odd. But I enjoyed the stories about Scamper and some rare footage.
I enjoyed the show but also thought it was strange to compare scamper to Secretariat and pretty much say scamper was a better horse. She talked about how scamper held up all those years and said something about do you think Secretariat could have done that? Not her exact words but I feel that is what she meant. I don't think you can compare the two. Two different sports and breeds. Both were amazing horses but you can't just say one was a better athlete.
Scamper held up because he was smart. She hauled him loose and he'd lay down in the trailer. Hauling is what tears most horses up. Scamper took care of himself and that's why he stayed sound. Couple that with him being stoic and you have a horse that was not normal. I'm not convinced his genetics were that outstanding (given his siblings didn't amount to anything). I think he was above average in the brain department and a total freak. Most of the time those two things are not duplicated or passed on. |
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Location: Southeast Louisiana | CrossCreek - 2016-03-20 10:40 AM Cindy Hamilton - 2016-03-17 10:30 AM Take the papers away from all of these barrel horses and just run em....fastest time wins....how's that for a new drama free concept...
That made me laugh... it weirds me out, too. I do try to separate my personal feelings on it from what the owners should be able to do or not do. |
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 Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
Posts: 5408
| I still feel like inviroment in the formative years plays a part in how a horse turns out. I mean a horse that is handled roughly when young may turn out to be the toughest, most heart in the world. Clone him and raise that baby in a sheltered baby him type atmosphere and he might turn out to be a complete wus. Does that make sense. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
Location: Kansas | I once heard a horseshoer make the remark "a horse needs to earn the right to be a breeding stallion."
Being the "clone" of a gutsy little barrel horse like Scamper doesn't exactly fit that bill.
Cloning is just a strange concept. Although I do think they should take a shot at cloning Brad Pitt. 
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 A very grounded girl
Posts: 5052
Location: Moving soon..... | I do not believe Clayton is in the same class as Secretariat. JMO |
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Saint Stacey
| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AM
A lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals.
Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam.
Edited by SKM 2016-03-21 10:30 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AMA lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals. Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam.
Edited by rockette 2016-03-21 10:41 AM
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Saint Stacey
| rockette - 2016-03-21 9:40 AM
SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AMA lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals. Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam. Wasn't there some controversy once about his papers? I thought I remember that Drapers Jay was a colt stealer. The stallion is for sure, but at one point in time I thought the dam was in question.
1977 was long before DNA testing. In the 80's there were a lot of horses out there that weren't what was claimed. One of the richest race geldings for a long time wasn't by who they claimed his sire was. One of the owners towards the end of this horses life never believed what was claimed so he took a DNA sample and tested it. He was right. Nothing ever came out of it as he want wanting to cause a controversy. He was just wanting to know for himself.
The only way to prove Scamper wasn't what was claimed was for Charmayne to test once DNA testing became available. It really wouldn't have served any purpose. Especially if they didn't have any idea who the dam was if he was stolen. In the case of my story, this gentleman gave the testing facility the name of the stallion he suspected as being the true sire. Charmayne would be better off not knowing if there wasn't a suspect mare. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM
horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AM
A lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals.
Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam.
Yes sorry, I got confused! I was thinking for some reason Gills bay boy was his sire. . . I apoligise.
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Saint Stacey
| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 10:08 AM
SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM
horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AM
A lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals.
Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam.
Yes sorry, I got confused! I was thinking for some reason Gills bay boy was his sire. . . I apoligise.
Happens to me all the time, lol!! I'm the queen of messing things up in my mind and getting confused so I can totally relate. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 368
Location: run2win land | SKM, This sounds like an interesting story. Could you provide more info so I can read up?
Edited by swd 2016-03-21 11:50 AM
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Saint Stacey
| swd - 2016-03-21 10:49 AM
SKM, This sounds like an interesting story. Could you provide more info so I can read up?
Sorry, but no I can't. The gentleman was a family friend and it was a discussion around the breakfast table one day when he was at our house. Nothing was ever published about it and he has since passed away. Like I said, he never believed the horse was what the papers said, DNA testing became available and he had the chance to get a sample for his own curiosity, not to make waves. Plus the right sire and the wrong sire were both deceased so it served to purpose.
But breeding a great stallion under a lessor stallions name happened all the time back then. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
Location: Kansas | My husband had an unregistered bulldogging mare, grade simply because the breeders didn't keep their paperwork up. She was a plain brown beautiful animal. People were forever offering to sell us papers from "dead" mares with the same description and approximately the same age. That was in the 80's. |
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 Texas Lone Star
Posts: 5318
Location: where ever my L/Q trl is parked | SKM - 2016-03-21 12:56 PM swd - 2016-03-21 10:49 AM SKM, This sounds like an interesting story. Could you provide more info so I can read up? Sorry, but no I can't. The gentleman was a family friend and it was a discussion around the breakfast table one day when he was at our house. Nothing was ever published about it and he has since passed away. Like I said, he never believed the horse was what the papers said, DNA testing became available and he had the chance to get a sample for his own curiosity, not to make waves. Plus the right sire and the wrong sire were both deceased so it served to purpose. But breeding a great stallion under a lessor stallions name happened all the time back then.
what interesting information.... makes you wonder? I have known one or two people in the past that take register papers and pass them on to a grade horse that have the same or near same physical characteristics.  Like car salesmens/horse traders!  |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 454
Location: Decatur, Texas | SKM - 2016-03-21 6:51 PM rockette - 2016-03-21 9:40 AM SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AMA lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals. Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam. Wasn't there some controversy once about his papers? I thought I remember that Drapers Jay was a colt stealer. The stallion is for sure, but at one point in time I thought the dam was in question. 1977 was long before DNA testing. In the 80's there were a lot of horses out there that weren't what was claimed. One of the richest race geldings for a long time wasn't by who they claimed his sire was. One of the owners towards the end of this horses life never believed what was claimed so he took a DNA sample and tested it. He was right. Nothing ever came out of it as he want wanting to cause a controversy. He was just wanting to know for himself. The only way to prove Scamper wasn't what was claimed was for Charmayne to test once DNA testing became available. It really wouldn't have served any purpose. Especially if they didn't have any idea who the dam was if he was stolen. In the case of my story, this gentleman gave the testing facility the name of the stallion he suspected as being the true sire. Charmayne would be better off not knowing if there wasn't a suspect mare.
I'm confused.... a champion race gelding was not sired by who was on the registered papers? |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | SKM - 2016-03-21 12:56 PM swd - 2016-03-21 10:49 AM SKM, This sounds like an interesting story. Could you provide more info so I can read up? Sorry, but no I can't. The gentleman was a family friend and it was a discussion around the breakfast table one day when he was at our house. Nothing was ever published about it and he has since passed away. Like I said, he never believed the horse was what the papers said, DNA testing became available and he had the chance to get a sample for his own curiosity, not to make waves. Plus the right sire and the wrong sire were both deceased so it served to purpose. But breeding a great stallion under a lessor stallions name happened all the time back then.
It sure did happen all the time. Horse traders were very good at doing this. It was also common in the dog breeder business.
I remember many times people saying that they would like to know how their horse really was bred.
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Posts: 1898
| COautumn - 2016-03-21 2:40 PM
SKM - 2016-03-21 6:51 PM rockette - 2016-03-21 9:40 AM SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AMA lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals. Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam. Wasn't there some controversy once about his papers? I thought I remember that Drapers Jay was a colt stealer. The stallion is for sure, but at one point in time I thought the dam was in question. 1977 was long before DNA testing. In the 80's there were a lot of horses out there that weren't what was claimed. One of the richest race geldings for a long time wasn't by who they claimed his sire was. One of the owners towards the end of this horses life never believed what was claimed so he took a DNA sample and tested it. He was right. Nothing ever came out of it as he want wanting to cause a controversy. He was just wanting to know for himself. The only way to prove Scamper wasn't what was claimed was for Charmayne to test once DNA testing became available. It really wouldn't have served any purpose. Especially if they didn't have any idea who the dam was if he was stolen. In the case of my story, this gentleman gave the testing facility the name of the stallion he suspected as being the true sire. Charmayne would be better off not knowing if there wasn't a suspect mare.
That's what I am getting. It used to happen all the time. A stallion owner would have more than one stud, a credible, proven stud and an "up and coming" producer. To help the "up and comer" they would cover mares with the stud they knew produced winners and put the mare on the "up and comer's" breeding certificate instead. If those babies did well it made the young stud more desirable and increased the stud fee. |
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| What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo? |
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 A Barrel Of Monkeys
Posts: 12972
Location: Texas | SKM - 2016-03-21 10:51 AM rockette - 2016-03-21 9:40 AM SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AMA lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals. Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam. Wasn't there some controversy once about his papers? I thought I remember that Drapers Jay was a colt stealer. The stallion is for sure, but at one point in time I thought the dam was in question. 1977 was long before DNA testing. In the 80's there were a lot of horses out there that weren't what was claimed. One of the richest race geldings for a long time wasn't by who they claimed his sire was. One of the owners towards the end of this horses life never believed what was claimed so he took a DNA sample and tested it. He was right. Nothing ever came out of it as he want wanting to cause a controversy. He was just wanting to know for himself. The only way to prove Scamper wasn't what was claimed was for Charmayne to test once DNA testing became available. It really wouldn't have served any purpose. Especially if they didn't have any idea who the dam was if he was stolen. In the case of my story, this gentleman gave the testing facility the name of the stallion he suspected as being the true sire. Charmayne would be better off not knowing if there wasn't a suspect mare.
I heard rumors that Easy Jet was actually sired by Good Bird - I assume parly because he and his brother, Jet Smooth, didn't look very much alike.
But I can attest to having full siblings that look nothing alike - one, a racy, solid, brown and the other a stocky, flashy sorrel. So I don't know if that was ever dis/proven in regard to Easy Jet's sire. |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| cyount2009 - 2016-03-21 3:22 PM
COautumn - 2016-03-21 2:40 PM
SKM - 2016-03-21 6:51 PM rockette - 2016-03-21 9:40 AM SKM - 2016-03-21 10:28 AM horsiace1025 - 2016-03-21 8:39 AMA lot of people are missing the fact that scamper himself was not registered. His dam is listed as unknown. Therefore, if he was a stallion himself, he would not have been able to produce registered foals. Your info if false. Scamper was too registered as was his dam. His registered name is Gills Bay Boy. Drapers Jay is the name of his dam. Wasn't there some controversy once about his papers? I thought I remember that Drapers Jay was a colt stealer. The stallion is for sure, but at one point in time I thought the dam was in question. 1977 was long before DNA testing. In the 80's there were a lot of horses out there that weren't what was claimed. One of the richest race geldings for a long time wasn't by who they claimed his sire was. One of the owners towards the end of this horses life never believed what was claimed so he took a DNA sample and tested it. He was right. Nothing ever came out of it as he want wanting to cause a controversy. He was just wanting to know for himself. The only way to prove Scamper wasn't what was claimed was for Charmayne to test once DNA testing became available. It really wouldn't have served any purpose. Especially if they didn't have any idea who the dam was if he was stolen. In the case of my story, this gentleman gave the testing facility the name of the stallion he suspected as being the true sire. Charmayne would be better off not knowing if there wasn't a suspect mare.
That's what I am getting. It used to happen all the time. A stallion owner would have more than one stud, a credible, proven stud and an "up and coming" producer. To help the "up and comer" they would cover mares with the stud they knew produced winners and put the mare on the "up and comer's" breeding certificate instead. If those babies did well it made the young stud more desirable and increased the stud fee.
It happened the other way around also mostly with an aged stud with a good record but low sperm count. |
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Veteran
Posts: 285
| This thread is so interesting!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 454
Location: Decatur, Texas | TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM
TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag.
Yea, That sucks! Especially for the few ppl who did believe in him and paid that high price. I bet they are kicking themselves now.
Didn't Shada and Trevor have one out of an outstanding mare? What happened to it? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 454
Location: Decatur, Texas | horsiace1025 - 2016-03-22 4:37 PM COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo? The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag. Yea, That sucks! Especially for the few ppl who did believe in him and paid that high price. I bet they are kicking themselves now. Didn't Shada and Trevor have one out of an outstanding mare? What happened to it?
I heard it died in an accident at a young age. |
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Veteran
Posts: 274
| COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM
TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag.
$1,000? That is it? I did not notice the price tag when I looked at his site last!!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Warriors Mom - 2016-03-22 9:17 AM
COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM
TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag.
$1,000? That is it? I did not notice the price tag when I looked at his site last!!!
Buffalo Ranch still has it at 2,500. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 808
| rockette - 2016-03-22 7:23 AM
Warriors Mom - 2016-03-22 9:17 AM
COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM
TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag.
$1,000? That is it? I did not notice the price tag when I looked at his site last!!!
Buffalo Ranch still has it at 2,500.
They need to proof read
"Clayton is an exceptional choice for successfully breading healthy offspring passing on the characteristic traits of his bloodline"
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Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7617
Location: Dubach, LA | I know assumptions are just that, but I would assume that the big name owners with big name mares didn't have the big stud fee to breed to Clayton. If those first mares didn't produce winners...
The whole thing disappoints me. I wanted him to be a success. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I've only been around 2 and have watched them run and I see them as late bloomers. Both are nice horses but nothing exceptional at this point but it will be interesting to see them when they have fully matured. They are what I would call being horses for the long haul. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 454
Location: Decatur, Texas | The1CowgirlsEnvy - 2016-03-22 5:39 PM
rockette - 2016-03-22 7:23 AM
Warriors Mom - 2016-03-22 9:17 AM
COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM
TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag.
$1,000? That is it? I did not notice the price tag when I looked at his site last!!!
Buffalo Ranch still has it at 2,500.
They need to proof read
"Clayton is an exceptional choice for successfully breading healthy offspring passing on the characteristic traits of his bloodline"
No, I'm actually going off what Charmayne had on her website in one of the question and answer sections. I'll see if I can find it, but haven't been on her website in a long time. Someone asked how much his breeding fee was and she responded with $1,000 since it wasn't listed anywhere on her website. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:48 PM
The1CowgirlsEnvy - 2016-03-22 5:39 PM
rockette - 2016-03-22 7:23 AM
Warriors Mom - 2016-03-22 9:17 AM
COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM
TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo?
The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag.
$1,000? That is it? I did not notice the price tag when I looked at his site last!!!
Buffalo Ranch still has it at 2,500.
They need to proof read
"Clayton is an exceptional choice for successfully breading healthy offspring passing on the characteristic traits of his bloodline"
No, I'm actually going off what Charmayne had on her website in one of the question and answer sections. I'll see if I can find it, but haven't been on her website in a long time. Someone asked how much his breeding fee was and she responded with $1,000 since it wasn't listed anywhere on her website.
I am not attacking you. :). He stands at SPD Buffalo Ranch and their website stated 2500. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | rockette - 2016-03-23 11:12 AM COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:48 PM The1CowgirlsEnvy - 2016-03-22 5:39 PM rockette - 2016-03-22 7:23 AM Warriors Mom - 2016-03-22 9:17 AM COautumn - 2016-03-22 8:13 AM TyE - 2016-03-22 12:59 AM What about Clayton foals? I can't believe we are not hearing or seeing ANY? I thought CJ had one she called Halo? The only foal I have ever seen competing is Scamper To Dat Cash, who placed in the SuperStakes at BFA in 2013. He was owned by Jud and I believe he sold in their recent December sale. I wouldn't breed to him since his original stud fee was $5,000 and Charmayne dropped it down to $1,000 according to her website. That's a red flag. $1,000? That is it? I did not notice the price tag when I looked at his site last!!! Buffalo Ranch still has it at 2,500. They need to proof read "Clayton is an exceptional choice for successfully breading healthy offspring passing on the characteristic traits of his bloodline" No, I'm actually going off what Charmayne had on her website in one of the question and answer sections. I'll see if I can find it, but haven't been on her website in a long time. Someone asked how much his breeding fee was and she responded with $1,000 since it wasn't listed anywhere on her website. I am not attacking you. : ). He stands at SPD Buffalo Ranch and their website stated 2500.
It started off at $4,000. Most stud fees go up...not down. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| Maybe they thought originally that everyone would want to breed to him so they offered it at such a high price. But, when it was unsuccessful they reduced it? Idk but I would never (even if I had the money to spend) pay a high stud fee for a young sire no matter what his parents or in this case genetic twin did. I see lots of nice studs that I wish so bad I could breed to that start off with a high stud fee and it just makes me cry inside because its not feasable to me. If im spending 4k on a stud fee I would breed to something that is high up on the offspring earnings list. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Not Clayton - but did anyone else notice the ad for Guys Duplicate (Genetic Replica of Frenchman's Guy) in the Barrel Racing Report today?
http://www.barrelracingreport.com/issues/3_22_16_BarrelRacingReport_LowRes.pdf |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 788
| Yes, and I seen the Viagen (cloning company) ad with Mary walker in the Picture?? Whats up with that? Is she gonna clone Latte? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | I haven't heard anything about Another Shot either. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | MS2011 - 2016-03-23 1:18 PM
Not Clayton - but did anyone else notice the ad for Guys Duplicate (Genetic Replica of Frenchman's Guy) in the Barrel Racing Report today?
http://www.barrelracingreport.com/issues/3_22_16_BarrelRacingReport_LowRes.pdf
I wonder where the other two are? |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| rockette - 2016-03-23 1:52 PM
I haven't heard anything about Another Shot either.
I was wondering about him as well. He doesn't seem to be listed on Judd Little's site as standing any longer.
As for Clayton, I really feel he was dealt a dirty hand. By never futuriting him or running him for that matter he never got the chance to prove himself as his own. He is strictly being marketed on what Scamper did and although he is an exact genetic copy, he is not the same horse. With the controversy surrounding cloning, I would have thought they would have wanted the best shot at making him the very best marketable product they could. Maybe they thought Scamper's name was too big to fail in the breeding industry or maybe they really didn't have that much faith in the "resulting experiment" to try to put some credentials behind it?
Secondly, by starting him with such a high stud fee they pretty much left him with no where to go but down. In my perfect world, they would have kept it more "reasonable" maybe even "private treaty" until his babies hit the arena.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like he has that many colts on the ground that are of running age, I read this morning that he only has 25 (if you throw out the one of Brazil's that is questionably deceased) that are in the age range to run, one 7 year old (Halo), four 6 year olds, ten 5 year olds and ten 4 year olds. Those 4 and 5 year olds are really just debuting.
Any way I look at it, I feel they set him up for a big fall. |
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| cyount2009 - 2016-03-23 1:28 PM
rockette - 2016-03-23 1:52 PM
I haven't heard anything about Another Shot either.
I was wondering about him as well. He doesn't seem to be listed on Judd Little's site as standing any longer.
As for Clayton, I really feel he was dealt a dirty hand. By never futuriting him or running him for that matter he never got the chance to prove himself as his own. He is strictly being marketed on what Scamper did and although he is an exact genetic copy, he is not the same horse. With the controversy surrounding cloning, I would have thought they would have wanted the best shot at making him the very best marketable product they could. Maybe they thought Scamper's name was too big to fail in the breeding industry or maybe they really didn't have that much faith in the "resulting experiment" to try to put some credentials behind it?
Secondly, by starting him with such a high stud fee they pretty much left him with no where to go but down. In my perfect world, they would have kept it more "reasonable" maybe even "private treaty" until his babies hit the arena.
Honestly, it doesn't seem like he has that many colts on the ground that are of running age, I read this morning that he only has 25 (if you throw out the one of Brazil's that is questionably deceased ) that are in the age range to run, one 7 year old (Halo ), four 6 year olds, ten 5 year olds and ten 4 year olds. Those 4 and 5 year olds are really just debuting.
Any way I look at it, I feel they set him up for a big fall.
I was at a CJ clinic a few years back, and Clayton came up as some girls had questions. She wont bring him up butnwas very happy to talk about him.
What she said, was she was never going to compete on him, he would never fill scampers shoes, no matter what he did or how much he won everbody would consider scamper better. I do agree with that, Im not sure we will ever see a horse win 10 world championships again, thats incredible and If Clayton did not Scamper would STILL be better. No matter what he did the public eye would still falt Clayton as being less.
Not saying I agree with her choice one way or another but I do agree that the public on the whole would never consider him equal as a barrel horse to scamper.
I really think the whole deal was a lose lose situation, to run him or not. No matter what they did it is wrong lol. |
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Color Coordination Director
| horsiace1025 - 2016-03-23 1:33 PM Yes, and I seen the Viagen (cloning company) ad with Mary walker in the Picture?? Whats up with that? Is she gonna clone Latte?
I am fairly certain they already did clone him... |
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 Pres. ViaGen
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| I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:14 PM I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. Smartest post on here .. this should answer many questions.Think about it.. How many times we have said Id like to have had a baby from him but he was deceased and no frozen semen.. that was the original concept .. I think.. not to prove how good the clone is..nor to replace the original in the arena.. its all genetics but thats just my opinion..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-23 3:36 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
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Location: torrington, wy | Well Clayton isn't the only one. Doesn't Frenchmans Guy have 2 clones? You don't see them running or any adds on them, makes you wonder? I am not for giving clones a regular reg. but if you have the bucks and want to try it, Why not. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | Actually there is.. |
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Location: torrington, wy | Nevertooold - 2016-03-21 2:44 PM SKM - 2016-03-21 12:56 PM swd - 2016-03-21 10:49 AM SKM, This sounds like an interesting story. Could you provide more info so I can read up? Sorry, but no I can't. The gentleman was a family friend and it was a discussion around the breakfast table one day when he was at our house. Nothing was ever published about it and he has since passed away. Like I said, he never believed the horse was what the papers said, DNA testing became available and he had the chance to get a sample for his own curiosity, not to make waves. Plus the right sire and the wrong sire were both deceased so it served to purpose. But breeding a great stallion under a lessor stallions name happened all the time back then.
I remember many times people saying that they would like to know how their horse really was bred.
Don't you all recall the deal with Impressive? His owner was banned from AQHA, Jerry Wells did also for the same reason but with a mare not a stallion.What I'd like to know, if you breed to a stallion that is alive but has clones who's semen are you getting? |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 3:29 PM
Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:14 PM I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. Smartest post on here .. this should answer many questions.Think about it.. How many times we have said Id like to have had a baby from him but he was deceased and no frozen semen.. that was the original concept .. I think.. not to prove how good the clone is..nor to replace the original in the arena.. its all genetics but thats just my opinion..
Yet there is no proof that a clone would sire exactly like the original. None of the Smart Little Lena clones have sired anything that I can find. Also, I don't believe Scampers genetics made him a champion. Conformation of the individual yes, but mostly heart made him a legend. |
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Location: torrington, wy | Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 3:33 PM Actually there is..
You are right. How interesting is that. |
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Elite Veteran
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| And sometimes people do get too caught up in the how much is something really worth. If you were CJ and had owned the best barrel horse of all time you wouldnt care how anyone else felt about the cituation. Im sure it doesnt really matter to her if Clayton tops any kind of produce records, she is just happy she gets a little piece of Scamper to keep going with. I would just love up on Clayton and be happy too. |
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Pres. ViaGen
Posts: 46
| The primary proof would be the science behind DNA tests that demonstrate the point. However, most phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic x environment interaction. That is why identical twins can have the same breeding value while still having a few noticeable differences in phenotype. The cloned stallion is passing along only a genetic contribution which is also all that the original could pass along. The environment is the rest and varies from conception forward - that impacts individual performance but not breeding value. I apologize for jumping on this thread, but saw Clayton and hoped to catch up. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | rockette - 2016-03-23 4:45 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 3:29 PM Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:14 PM I think it is easy to forget why the cloned stallion was produced. He was produced to make Scamper's genetics available for future foals. The performance record of the stallion (Clayton) would not impact his genetic contribution to his foals. By definition, breeding to Clayton is the same as breeding to Scamper if he had remained a stallion. Of course, a performance record on Clayton would have further validated the genetics behind Scamper's incredible record, but the real effort was to focus on the breeding potential rather than further test Scamper's performance genotype. We all know how challenging it is to prove a stallion, and I think the Clayton foal crops will be interesting to watch. We all know that Scamper was an incredible athlete, now we get to test his breeding value. Smartest post on here .. this should answer many questions.Think about it.. How many times we have said Id like to have had a baby from him but he was deceased and no frozen semen.. that was the original concept .. I think.. not to prove how good the clone is..nor to replace the original in the arena.. its all genetics but thats just my opinion.. Yet there is no proof that a clone would sire exactly like the original. None of the Smart Little Lena clones have sired anything that I can find. Also, I don't believe Scampers genetics made him a champion. Conformation of the individual yes, but mostly heart made him a legend.
Your correct.. its for the genetics.. that is all.. They never state the colt would be a champion or "exactly" like him.. its for genetics.. its a gamble but so is everything else.. alot more play into it I agree.. but when someone wants a clone they know the genetics are the same.. anything else contributing to the champions or the horse comes from all the other stuff..but thats with anything.. you can take scamper and put him with a amatuar or not in training or whatever.. and hed not have been the champion.. so its alot more complicated.. but the fact is cloning is for the genetic aspect and you do the rest.. if that makes sense.. and with that said... why are so many barrelracers wanting certain bloodlines if it doesnt matter to much at all ? it does matter..and some are wanting to do this... and cj might have cloned him for her own personal reasons.. as someone stated.. of course I dont know much about it it just is common sense the reasoning .. its from the other angle
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-23 4:05 PM
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 3:53 PM
The primary proof would be the science behind DNA tests that demonstrate the point. However, most phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic x environment interaction. That is why identical twins can have the same breeding value while still having a few noticeable differences in phenotype. The cloned stallion is passing along only a genetic contribution which is also all that the original could pass along. The environment is the rest and varies from conception forward - that impacts individual performance but not breeding value. I apologize for jumping on this thread, but saw Clayton and hoped to catch up.
You don't need to apologize, I hope that I am not coming off snarky. I mean this for any clone :) |
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Location: Kansas and loving it | I also wanted to say that I am not criticizing anyone's decision. Really just trying to see why there has been no equine success as far as breeding. I hope that it all stays as a learning discussion. I would love to see pictures of Clayton babies or any babies. |
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Pres. ViaGen
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| The US equine industry is coming along slowly with this technology and I think that is appropriate. The European breeders are moving more aggressively but that is probably because there is less monetary difference due to no registry exclusion. I have a cloned stallion of my own (Tailor Fit) and we only know that the original gelding was an elite athlete at the track. We have yet to prove if his breeding value is similar to his performance. That will take years of time to prove. In livestock, cloned parents dominate show cattle and show pigs and are playing a major role in dairy shows and goats, etc. These are phenotype/conformation shows that are heavily genetic driven but they do continue to validate the science. The cloned stallions of Frenchmans Guy are a great opportunity for mare owners to access the same breeding value of a proven stallion at a much more affordable rate. |
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Location: Kansas and loving it | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 4:21 PM
The US equine industry is coming along slowly with this technology and I think that is appropriate. The European breeders are moving more aggressively but that is probably because there is less monetary difference due to no registry exclusion. I have a cloned stallion of my own (Tailor Fit) and we only know that the original gelding was an elite athlete at the track. We have yet to prove if his breeding value is similar to his performance. That will take years of time to prove. In livestock, cloned parents dominate show cattle and show pigs and are playing a major role in dairy shows and goats, etc. These are phenotype/conformation shows that are heavily genetic driven but they do continue to validate the science. The cloned stallions of Frenchmans Guy are a great opportunity for mare owners to access the same breeding value of a proven stallion at a much more affordable rate.
Ahh. Ok. That explains why cattle cloning has done so well. I am a little hard headed but I get it eventually! :D |
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 Firecracker Dog Lover
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| This has been an interesting discussion. I suppose I understand wanting to clone a great gelding whose lines would not be available otherwise. However, having said that, cloning an already great stallion, especially those still alive, dilutes the gene pool in my opinion. Sure it gives mare owners a more affordable option but for me personally I would not do it. I do not want to breed a mare to a stallion that has multiple clones and for those wanting to breed to the original stallion - you can never truly know if you are getting the original or the clone. I simply would not take that chance but that is my own personal opinion. Not judging anyone who does. Dash4kj's Clayton foals are really nice - I think she could have bred that mare to a donkey and gotten an outstanding athlete - that mare is just outstanding all on her own. |
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Warmblood with Wings
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Location: Florida.. | brlraceaddict - 2016-03-23 5:43 PM This has been an interesting discussion. I suppose I understand wanting to clone a great gelding whose lines would not be available otherwise. However, having said that, cloning an already great stallion, especially those still alive, dilutes the gene pool in my opinion. Sure it gives mare owners a more affordable option but for me personally I would not do it. I do not want to breed a mare to a stallion that has multiple clones and for those wanting to breed to the original stallion - you can never truly know if you are getting the original or the clone. I simply would not take that chance but that is my own personal opinion. Not judging anyone who does. Dash4kj's Clayton foals are really nice - I think she could have bred that mare to a donkey and gotten an outstanding athlete - that mare is just outstanding all on her own. She sure is a superstar!!
and boyfriend is looking really good.huge fan of them .
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-03-23 4:46 PM
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Firecracker Dog Lover
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| Bibliafarm - 2016-03-23 2:45 PM brlraceaddict - 2016-03-23 5:43 PM This has been an interesting discussion. I suppose I understand wanting to clone a great gelding whose lines would not be available otherwise. However, having said that, cloning an already great stallion, especially those still alive, dilutes the gene pool in my opinion. Sure it gives mare owners a more affordable option but for me personally I would not do it. I do not want to breed a mare to a stallion that has multiple clones and for those wanting to breed to the original stallion - you can never truly know if you are getting the original or the clone. I simply would not take that chance but that is my own personal opinion. Not judging anyone who does. Dash4kj's Clayton foals are really nice - I think she could have bred that mare to a donkey and gotten an outstanding athlete - that mare is just outstanding all on her own. She sure is a superstar!!
and boyfriend is looking really good.huge fan of them .
Indeed they are looking really good - she is doing a fantastic job with them! |
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Keeper of the King Snake
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Location: Dubach, LA | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 3:53 PM The primary proof would be the science behind DNA tests that demonstrate the point. However, most phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic x environment interaction. That is why identical twins can have the same breeding value while still having a few noticeable differences in phenotype. The cloned stallion is passing along only a genetic contribution which is also all that the original could pass along. The environment is the rest and varies from conception forward - that impacts individual performance but not breeding value. I apologize for jumping on this thread, but saw Clayton and hoped to catch up.
English please. Phenotypes are not genetic? I thought science had attributed many things to straight DNA - from obesity to addiction to height to sexual preference. Wrong?? |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: run2win land | I have also enjoyed this discussion. I was always suspicious of cloned stallions...were you getting the original or not so it seems there are small differences. I have two friends who bred mares to Clayton. One is a yearling and is quite the built little man. Build wise he reminds me of Scamper. The other hasnt foaled yet but this mama was a gritty super nice barrel mare. I hope both of them turn out great but it seems everytime you breed its a throw of the dice. I remember Scampers brother and he was a flop. |
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 Expert
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Location: Texas | Interesting reading these posts! I know the man Virgil Lawson, who owned Scampers Daddy. His son told me in a conversation that they were surprised at what he had gotten done because in his words "That Stud was no count". I also know the Mare's owners, Buddy and Jeri Draper also from Wetmore Colorado. They are as straight up people as they can be. I believe that Scamper was a production of environment. He was tough, gritty and had the right balance of speed and turn. He was a top dog in his day due to his consistance, and limited comparable competiton. I honestly don't believe that he would achieve the same record against the horses of today. He was a true Legand of his time.
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| rockette - 2016-03-23 1:52 PM
I haven't heard anything about Another Shot either.
I think I saw on facebook where he is with the Steinhoff's now? They have a handful of babies by him, I remember seeing Tanya post pictures often of a baby out of a mare she rode as a kid. |
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 Expert
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Location: Kansas | Blake Russell - 2016-03-23 2:53 PM
The primary proof would be the science behind DNA tests that demonstrate the point. However, most phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic x environment interaction. That is why identical twins can have the same breeding value while still having a few noticeable differences in phenotype. The cloned stallion is passing along only a genetic contribution which is also all that the original could pass along. The environment is the rest and varies from conception forward - that impacts individual performance but not breeding value. I apologize for jumping on this thread, but saw Clayton and hoped to catch up.
Don't apologize! I think we all value your input. |
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Elite Veteran
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| Cowjazz - 2016-03-23 9:19 PM
Interesting reading these posts! I know the man Virgil Lawson, who owned Scampers Daddy. His son told me in a conversation that they were surprised at what he had gotten done because in his words "That Stud was no count". I also know the Mare's owners, Buddy and Jeri Draper also from Wetmore Colorado. They are as straight up people as they can be. I believe that Scamper was a production of environment. He was tough, gritty and had the right balance of speed and turn. He was a top dog in his day due to his consistance, and limited comparable competiton. I honestly don't believe that he would achieve the same record against the horses of today. He was a true Legand of his time.
I have thought this exact thing to myself! I didnt want to throw that out there lol I know it will step on some peoples toes but its true! Today there is so many horses running that both of their parents were great barrel horses. Which makes the chance of that horse being even greater multiply.(dont remember the scientific terms) The competition today is really tough compared to what it was 20 or 30 years ago. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
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Location: Kansas | horsiace1025 - 2016-03-24 9:06 AM Cowjazz - 2016-03-23 9:19 PM Interesting reading these posts! I know the man Virgil Lawson, who owned Scampers Daddy. His son told me in a conversation that they were surprised at what he had gotten done because in his words "That Stud was no count". I also know the Mare's owners, Buddy and Jeri Draper also from Wetmore Colorado. They are as straight up people as they can be. I believe that Scamper was a production of environment. He was tough, gritty and had the right balance of speed and turn. He was a top dog in his day due to his consistance, and limited comparable competiton. I honestly don't believe that he would achieve the same record against the horses of today. He was a true Legand of his time.
I have thought this exact thing to myself! I didnt want to throw that out there lol I know it will step on some peoples toes but its true! Today there is so many horses running that both of their parents were great barrel horses. Which makes the chance of that horse being even greater multiply. (dont remember the scientific terms ) The competition today is really tough compared to what it was 20 or 30 years ago.
Started to post the same thing the other day but was afraid BHW would think I was diminishing Scamper which I would never do. Don't forget he was also carrying a youngster, weightwise always an advantage.
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Clayton