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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| For the past year I have been struggling with my coming 6 year old mare in twitching, behavioral issues, pain-like symptoms, ect and I had every test under the sun done including ultra sounds, lamness exams, chiro, ulcer meds, vision problems, ect and the vets in my area (not really a lot of equine vets around here) all (including friends) told me she was fine, there was nothing wrong, I just need to get after her, I'm seeing things, pretty much the works and I stumbled across an article with a mare owner describing the same symptoms.
I didn't want to get my hopes up after being let down a lot but I went ahead and tested for PSSM Type 1 and 2 (I actually got to be part of a study for a blood test for type 2 instead of a muscle bioposy!) and she came back positive for PSSM 2! She is N/P2 and we believe it came from the sires side (sorry can't release his name until they finish testing) but we're 99% positive its from him. Type 2 isnt as well known, and the forum on FB has been extremely helpful but type 2 is treated a little differently than type 1 and I was wondering if any barrel racers could share their experiances and feeding plans with me? I ordered Natural Vitamin E, Salt, Wheat Germ Oil (now not really a recommendation), and I'll be asking the feed store what they carry for Magnesium. I'm also going to start her on Purnia WellSolve L/S (now feeding Purina SuperSport and/or Triple Crown 30 as they are both good options) she is an easy keeper, very well muscled, high strung, and anxious (probaly because everything used to hurt her!) So I would love advice, success stories, ect  I have a basis of where to start but I know I'm probably missing stuff!
She had to miss her futurity year and now we are back with adding 5 min of excercise a day but I am VERY new to this. I do know that every type 2 horse that has tested positive has been linked back to two OLD horses "Midnight" and "Peter McCue" except 2 and there are a LOT of horses that go back to them and are suspected carriers including Dr. Nick Bar who my other mare is currently in foal to a son of his so the baby will be tested right away, Easy Jet and Jet Deck, Top Moon, Sonny Dee Bar, ect. I know there are plenty of horses that are competitive including "Martha" but I want to get my mare comfortable first. My belief is that there are a LOT of horses out there that are suffering from type 2 whether they are mildly affected or severe like my mare but no one knows about it/wants to muscle bioposy. The gentleman doing this study just released the blood test to the public Edited: the hair test is now public :) Equi-Seq is the website Hopefully in the coming years it will also be added to AQHA's 5 Panel and I think a lot of people will be surprised at who is found positive. I know we are now going to be testing almost all of our horses now. :)
Editied to add since this was bumped up:)
Spelling and changed the feed reccomendations since it is now high protein...still haven't rode her but she's on the right track!
Edited by cheeka77 2016-08-12 11:11 AM
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
  
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Are you on facebook? there's a great page over there called PSSM Forum. They are supportive and have tons of experience with horses that have PSSM. They can help you with diet and exercise ideas to help you make your horse the best possible version of herself. Good luck. |
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 Poor Cracker Girl
Posts: 12150
Location: Feeding mosquitos, FL | I'm running a mare now that we think is PSSM Type 2 - she had all the clinical signs, was negative to the Type 1 test, but we just haven't done the biopsy. She had muscle spasms, anxiety, high-strung, INTENSE about everything in her life.
As long as we manage her diet, she's completely fine and running hard. Her diet currently is Seminole DynaSport (which is 9% starch), MagRestore (magnesium supplement), a little alfalfa, and all the grass hay she can stuff in her face. She was on WellSolve L/S and Amplify but I couldn't get it as easily as the Seminole.
I'm curious to know the bloodline of your mare - there are a few horses locally that go back to one particular line that are all symptomatic.
Edit: I forgot to add - for exercise, she doesn't get ridden every day but she is turned out 24/7.
Good luck! With good food and a sharp eye, she'll be back to running in no time!
Edited by TrackinBubba 2016-04-20 2:32 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| I am apart of the FB page and they are very helpful, just want opinions from barrel racers :) As soon as I can release the name I will post it! She's by a stud who was pretty well known but was sold and kind of went "off the grid" and isnt currently standing to the public but they had plans to stand him for 2017. He wasnt 5 paneled because it wasn't required at the time but they are testing him for both types now. I will say he is by a very well known stud and out of good bloodlines that pretty much everyone has, kind of scary! Never heard of Seminole but I will check that out!! |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | could you say if it is barrel bloodline, cowhorse bloodline or pure racehorse bloodline? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Barrel and race, the stud himself raced as well |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | oh geeze I have a feeling i don't want to know... |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | do you think the sire got it from his dam or his sire? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Sent you a private message ;) I do know there are a lot of horses out there with bloodlines that are either carriers or have offspring that are carriers and there is a website, BRIDGE EQUINE with a whole database that you can look up specific horses and see who is suspects. Easy Jet and similarly bred horses that go back to the two mentioned horses I believe are also carriers. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| I will also say, we do know that the mare also goes back to 1 of the horses but shes 21 and own/know all of the foals and none are symptomatic and the two horses that we have had by the stud (as well as a few others in the area that we know) are symptomatic/show signs so it's a pretty good sign that he's the one. Plus the fact that he's not tested. |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Wellsolve is great feed |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Bibliafarm - 2016-04-20 9:13 PM Wellsolve is great feed
Hopefully my feed store carries it, I've heard great reviews! I'm still new to the actual feeding process of this and I know they are in the works of actually changing the name of PSSM Type 2 but I love hearing sucess stories |
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 Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | I too am in the same study as you. Am waiting my results.
My horse is by a stallion that was well known for throwing Broncs. Found this out after talking to some old timers in the area the stallion is from.
I tried all the feeds recommended for PSSM. Saw marked improvement in attitude each time. But he was still off. Vets all thought I was nut during lameness exams. Horse had nice spring to his steps after flexion. No obvious lameness.
But under saddle I could feel "it". If you didn't ride every day, you had better lunge him before getting on. He would have days where he would work good. The next, who knows. He would just be "off"
Now he is on an all hay forage diet. Alfalfa / jigs hay plus his supliments. Added fats in the form of renew gold and two squirts of soybean oil. He has never looked better. All thru the years you could get weight in him. Now he has bulked up, darkened coat color.
He is a lot more consistent in his barrel runs. You don't ride him every day, no big deal. Same horse you stepped off of when you get back on.
His personality has blossomed. He wants to visit people and other horses.
Im glad others have paved the way for us to follow in helping these athletes |
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Who Wants to Trade?
Posts: 4692
| So have they definitively determined that PSSM 2 is genetic? Has a gene been identified?
Edited by kuhlmann 2016-04-21 8:25 AM
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Dog Resuce Agent
Posts: 3459
Location: southeast Texas | There is a link that has information about PSSM 2. This is the study I'm in
http://equiseq.com
Edited by roxieannie 2016-04-21 2:32 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Sorry guys just getting to the computer (my mare foaled!!) yes they have determined the gene and it is a dominant genetic disorder. Everyone knows that Hancocks are the broncy ones and lo and behold, they all go back to Midnight and Peter McCue and I'd be willing to bet a lot of money the two we had were both PSSM 2 positive because they showed all the signs (we just didnt know it). I hope you have good luck in the study roxieannie and hopefully pleasntly surprised! Im exhausted but when I get back on tomorrow I'll post more information, part of the reason they want to rename the type 2 is because it's a different form of glycogen storing and they're fed a little differently, Im still learning though! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1074
| My daughter's horse ties up. I am still learning about the problem. I am interested in having her tested to see what is going on. She is on a special diet after colic surgery so that doesn't help her situation either. She is on Purina Senior feed, but I've been told that it has a higher starch content. I am struggling with the research trying to decide what to feed. |
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 Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| I am part of the study for type 2 as well and am waiting for my results. My gelding tested negative for type 1 via hair sample. He does tie up, has tight musles, twitches, tail swishing etc. I've pulled blood and he had a slightly elevated AST level. He's a pretty classic case. As you know, they're saying that they believe PSSM2 is not as sensitive to carbs BUT, I know for a fact mine's effected by carbs as he will tie up if I feed him even 1# of oats a day. So, if he's not PSSM2 he's RER or something. We obviously just have to learn what works best for each horse. Mine is on a low-starch/high protein diet that's mainly alfalfa based (I balance with some phosphorous). He does get some fat too and I've always fed him vit e an selenium (always natural vitamin e) as well as a few other things. As far as this issue is concerned, he's totally maintained by diet. Won't tie up even if I skip a couple of days of riding, muscles aren't tight, nothing. Which leads me to believe even more it's PSSM2 vs RER because if it was RER he probably wouldn't do as well with having an alfalfa based diet. But, he's got an unrelated soundness issue that I'm still dealing with. Hopefully that will be behind us in the next few months as well. |
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 Buttered Noodles Snacker
Posts: 4377
Location: NC | So the AQHA 5 panle test says it includes PSSM but it only tests for type 1? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 705
Location: Weatherford, TX | What is RER? Thanks. |
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Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| HorsesNHarleys - 2016-04-22 8:23 AM So the AQHA 5 panle test says it includes PSSM but it only tests for type 1?
Correct |
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Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| Gator Bug - 2016-04-22 8:26 AM What is RER? Thanks. Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis
Which in our language bascially means = horse ties up..... LOL
Also can be generally maintained by diet but, alfalfa is not usually what works best for them.
Again, each horse is different. 
Edited to add: not letting these horses sit too long is also important. As well as proper warm up, blah blah blah
Edited by barrelracinbroke 2016-04-22 10:34 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 705
Location: Weatherford, TX | barrelracinbroke - 2016-04-22 10:28 AM HorsesNHarleys - 2016-04-22 8:23 AM So the AQHA 5 panle test says it includes PSSM but it only tests for type 1? Correct
So, is PSSM 1 or 2 genetic? Thanks again. |
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Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| Gator Bug - 2016-04-22 8:55 AM barrelracinbroke - 2016-04-22 10:28 AM HorsesNHarleys - 2016-04-22 8:23 AM So the AQHA 5 panle test says it includes PSSM but it only tests for type 1? Correct
Yes, both genetic.
But, two different genetic mutations.
Currently, there's a hair follicle test that can determine type 1. As is included in the current AQHA 5-panel test or, can be done by Animal Genetics in Florida. But testing outside of AQHA itself will not be recognized in their database although results are still just as accurate and completed within just a few business days instead of weeks like AQHA.
Type 2 current testing protocol is done by muscle biopsy only because the industry hadn't found the actual gene causing type 2 yet. Now, there's research that is claiming a gene has been identified and they're able to test for that gene through a blood sample. That's the study some of us have horses enrolled in. If their research is accurate, a hair follicle test will follow and muscle biopsy's will no longer be necessary for type 2.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 507
Location: Lost in the corn of Iowa. | cheeka77 - 2016-04-21 11:40 PM
Sorry guys just getting to the computer (my mare foaled!!) yes they have determined the gene and it is a dominant genetic disorder. Everyone knows that Hancocks are the broncy ones and lo and behold, they all go back to Midnight and Peter McCue and I'd be willing to bet a lot of money the two we had were both PSSM 2 positive because they showed all the signs (we just didnt know it). I hope you have good luck in the study roxieannie and hopefully pleasntly surprised! Im exhausted but when I get back on tomorrow I'll post more information, part of the reason they want to rename the type 2 is because it's a different form of glycogen storing and they're fed a little differently, Im still learning though!
So....what you're saying is that the Hancock line has been found to be a carrier for this PSSM type 2?? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 705
Location: Weatherford, TX | Wow! This is facinating and a great thread!
We first dealt with PSSM back in 2003/2004, well before very much was known at all.
Thanks so much for the thread. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Girls_Gotta_Jet - 2016-04-22 11:38 AM cheeka77 - 2016-04-21 11:40 PM Sorry guys just getting to the computer (my mare foaled!!) yes they have determined the gene and it is a dominant genetic disorder. Everyone knows that Hancocks are the broncy ones and lo and behold, they all go back to Midnight and Peter McCue and I'd be willing to bet a lot of money the two we had were both PSSM 2 positive because they showed all the signs (we just didnt know it). I hope you have good luck in the study roxieannie and hopefully pleasntly surprised! Im exhausted but when I get back on tomorrow I'll post more information, part of the reason they want to rename the type 2 is because it's a different form of glycogen storing and they're fed a little differently, Im still learning though! So....what you're saying is that the Hancock line has been found to be a carrier for this PSSM type 2??
Yes that is the belief (which makes total sense, especially from the sterotypes) and those bloodlines go back to the suspect lines a lot. They're trying to get as many as they can in the study and in the database |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| barrelracinbroke - 2016-04-22 10:07 AM I am part of the study for type 2 as well and am waiting for my results. My gelding tested negative for type 1 via hair sample. He does tie up, has tight musles, twitches, tail swishing etc. I've pulled blood and he had a slightly elevated AST level. He's a pretty classic case. As you know, they're saying that they believe PSSM2 is not as sensitive to carbs BUT, I know for a fact mine's effected by carbs as he will tie up if I feed him even 1# of oats a day. So, if he's not PSSM2 he's RER or something. We obviously just have to learn what works best for each horse. Mine is on a low-starch/high protein diet that's mainly alfalfa based (I balance with some phosphorous). He does get some fat too and I've always fed him vit e an selenium (always natural vitamin e) as well as a few other things. As far as this issue is concerned, he's totally maintained by diet. Won't tie up even if I skip a couple of days of riding, muscles aren't tight, nothing. Which leads me to believe even more it's PSSM2 vs RER because if it was RER he probably wouldn't do as well with having an alfalfa based diet. But, he's got an unrelated soundness issue that I'm still dealing with. Hopefully that will be behind us in the next few months as well.
I hope you get good results! My horse is just like yours and came back N/P2 and another friends came back Neg but pos for RER so they're similar like you said :) What are you feeding for high protein? Any oats at all send my mare into tremmors and part of my battle is her high anxiety and attitude so I'm hoping the E (which they say probably doesn't make a difference in type 2 horses) will help with that. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | They actually have found PSSM2 to be genetic and are developing a hair test for it. |
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Did I miss the party?
Posts: 3864
| cheeka77 - 2016-04-22 3:27 PM barrelracinbroke - 2016-04-22 10:07 AM I am part of the study for type 2 as well and am waiting for my results. My gelding tested negative for type 1 via hair sample. He does tie up, has tight musles, twitches, tail swishing etc. I've pulled blood and he had a slightly elevated AST level. He's a pretty classic case. As you know, they're saying that they believe PSSM2 is not as sensitive to carbs BUT, I know for a fact mine's effected by carbs as he will tie up if I feed him even 1# of oats a day. So, if he's not PSSM2 he's RER or something. We obviously just have to learn what works best for each horse. Mine is on a low-starch/high protein diet that's mainly alfalfa based (I balance with some phosphorous). He does get some fat too and I've always fed him vit e an selenium (always natural vitamin e) as well as a few other things. As far as this issue is concerned, he's totally maintained by diet. Won't tie up even if I skip a couple of days of riding, muscles aren't tight, nothing. Which leads me to believe even more it's PSSM2 vs RER because if it was RER he probably wouldn't do as well with having an alfalfa based diet. But, he's got an unrelated soundness issue that I'm still dealing with. Hopefully that will be behind us in the next few months as well. I hope you get good results! My horse is just like yours and came back N/P2 and another friends came back Neg but pos for RER so they're similar like you said :) What are you feeding for high protein? Any oats at all send my mare into tremmors and part of my battle is her high anxiety and attitude so I'm hoping the E (which they say probably doesn't make a difference in type 2 horses) will help with that.
Thank you! No matter what he comes back with, I feel better knowing it's being controlled with diet at least. :)
He gets alfalfa for protein.
Yes, no oats for mine either! Lol.
I like to feed some natural vitamin E to all of my horses, but I did have his vitamin E and Sel blood levels checked just to make sure they were in line and luckily, they were.
Good luck with yours and I hope she can be maintained with diet as well.
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 Quarter Horse HIstorian
Posts: 2878
Location: Aubrey, Texas | I seem to recall reading that they have traced it back to Mittie Stephens (b.1869) and down through her son, Locks Rondo. I don't remember if it was Type I or Type II. I have a 22 y/o mare who I suspect has it- she's a pasture ornament now; I wish I would have known more about this when I was running her. Best of luck to all of you who are dealing with it- I'm thankful that you're learning how to recognize and control the symptoms. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| cloverleaf - 2016-04-22 6:53 PM I seem to recall reading that they have traced it back to Mittie Stephens (b.1869) and down through her son, Locks Rondo. I don't remember if it was Type I or Type II. I have a 22 y/o mare who I suspect has it- she's a pasture ornament now; I wish I would have known more about this when I was running her. Best of luck to all of you who are dealing with it- I'm thankful that you're learning how to recognize and control the symptoms.
They are both suspects for type 1 which is a little different than the type 2 gene (and to blow your mind even more they think there are 3 or more varrying on breed!) but thank you, I just want to get the word out and make others aware, I have a sad feeling that there are a lot of unwanted nicely bred horses thrown away because of what people thought were pain issues :( |
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Veteran
Posts: 264
| I have a PSSM barrel horse as well! Please feel free to message me any time. Like you, it took ALOT of diagnostics until we actually tested for it. You know how many people told me it was just attitude and to ride him through it?? :-/
I tried the Wellsolve and it didn't work for me, he actually was a bit worse with the tremors. I have cut out grain completely and it has been magic. I use only alfalfa pellets. Also, read into l-carnitine. Most people suggest ALCAR but I didn't see the results until I tried L-carnitine. Right now the magic combo is alfalfa pellets, magnesium, l-carnitine, salt, and excel EQ (which has the vitamin e), Your mare will calm down greatly, the tense muscles and extreme nervousness was gone by week 2 for my boy.
My best advice (other than the diet changes) would be to make sure she can get out every day or stay turned out. We don't have access to pasture out here, so every single day I make sure to get out there and exercise him.
Again, please don't hesitate to message me if you have any questions. |
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | I just sent out a hair sample this morning to Animal Genetics, I opted for the 5 panel test. Vet thinks my mare has PSSM1. She only suggested a tiny bit of alfalfa pellets and grass hay. How important are the vitamins? Shes 75 lbs overweight is that maybe why she wants to feed her so little right now? |
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I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | Bump |
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 Too Skinny
Posts: 8009
Location: LA Lower Alabama | Very interesting! Thanks for sharing this.
Edited by cowgalsissy 2016-08-12 10:38 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: Georgia | SO have the manes of popular studs that carry PSSM genes been released yet? I am looking into buying a colt and id love to know what crosses to be cautious about. Can someone please Pm me who they suspect? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| I'm not as familiar with type 1 so if you have FB that would be a great place to ask! I know the recommended diet for P1 horses is high fat but I think they have some tricks up their sleeves for chubby horses :) As for minerals, it all depends on your feed program and how balanced their diet is but again, I would ask :) None as majorly expensive though so that's good! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| For type 1 horses, BRIDGE Equine has a databse you can look through of publicly tested horses that people have submitted and some that they suspect. There are also a few ranches that tested all of their horses including a few big name horses that are/were deceased so that's really helpfull! If you go on the FB page though there are a few people that can help you if you post a pedigree and tell you about any suspects! People tend to get in a tizzy over here when I post names even though the general consensious is that people suspect them and it makes TOTAL sense. There are now LOTS so buying a horse right now for me would be extrememly difficult (in my shoes)  |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| I went back and highlighted where I edited the first post with updated info and what I've learned so far :) High Protein for type 2 horses is the deit, fat doesn't matter for them like type 1's, NSC doesn't matter on a scientific scale but my mare is senstive to it still and so are a few others. My mare is also enrolled in the study for the "P3" MFM test so hopefully I will hear back soon. The hair test for P2 is now live! $99 for a short time to hair test your horses so I strongly encourage people to test :) I sent the info to the stallion owner so I'm not sure what they are going to choose to do. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | mandita8907 - 2016-08-12 8:42 AM
SO have the manes of popular studs that carry PSSM genes been released yet? I am looking into buying a colt and id love to know what crosses to be cautious about. Can someone please Pm me who they suspect?
There will probably never be a list published. But if you are looking at a particular stallion there are unofficial lists being kept by interested people. Or you can call AQHA and ask them about the stallion you're interested in. They will release the information if there has been a test completed.
If you know which stallions, I can help you with the more popular ones results. We have a page on facebook and have a list there of a lot of the more recognizable stallions results. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: Georgia | OregonBR - 2016-08-12 12:26 PM
mandita8907 - 2016-08-12 8:42 AM
SO have the manes of popular studs that carry PSSM genes been released yet? I am looking into buying a colt and id love to know what crosses to be cautious about. Can someone please Pm me who they suspect?
There will probably never be a list published. But if you are looking at a particular stallion there are unofficial lists being kept by interested people. Or you can call AQHA and ask them about the stallion you're interested in. They will release the information if there has been a test completed.
If you know which stallions, I can help you with the more popular ones results. We have a page on facebook and have a list there of a lot of the more recognizable stallions results.
Id love more info and id love to see the unofficial list. I am looking into prospects with several well known studs on there pedigrees. |
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